They are working very hard to combat the issue...

Thunder · May 2014

...is something I keep hearing people say in defense of there being so many bots in game. They are wrong. Plain and simple.

I'm all for defending them where defense is warranted and attacks are unjustified. Most of the complaints are about design choices the developers purposefully put in to practice with the intention of creating a different experience than players might be accustomed to. When people say ESO is the worst game ever because they disagree with those design choices, they are in effect saying, "I bought a ham and cheese sandwich for lunch, but it doesn't have any peanut butter and jelly. This sandwich is bad. Everyone knows all sandwiches should have peanut butter and jelly. They need to fix this sandwich. I don't even like the ham and cheese, they should get rid of it and replace it with PB&J."

That's simply not fair. That's not just comparing apples to oranges, that's saying every fruit should be an orange.

Bots on the other hand are not an intended design choice. At least I assume they are not, if they are to be taken at their word. However, there is a wide range of what developers can do to combat bots. On one end of the spectrum you have absolutely nothing, and the other end they employ a GM to follow every player around and constantly monitor their activities.

We can all agree that doing absolutely nothing is not enough, just as we can all agree that following every single player around is far more than can be expected. Somewhere in the middle there is a zone of acceptability, this zone will be different for everyone as it's entirely subjective and based on personal opinion, yet there are actions that clearly cross the bounds of acceptability.

One such example is the jute bot. Level 3 characters, with names like kkasddksss, in starter rags, camped on continuously respawning jute. This isn't some sophisticated botting algorithm, this bot simply stands on the node and continually clicks collect jute. It's not even smart enough to move out of the way of attacks, which makes for great fun in killing them by dragging over a mob that casts AoE attacks. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to catch this master criminal, they literally stand in one place for hours at a time, days even.

Every once in awhile a GM launches into a publicity stunt where they announce to a zone, "I'm here to stamp out botting. PM me with any suspected bots and I will send them to oblivion!" That's all well and good, but if you can't even take care of the bots that literally just stand there all day long clicking the same node over and over, what are you accomplishing? Publicity.

Furthermore, Bethesimax can definitely be faulted for game design that is so easily botted. Something as simple as diminishing returns on fighting the same type of mob over and over again would make the combat bots that circle in big groups for days at a time entirely useless.

Yet, they should not hold out for an automated cure to botting. With bots literally just standing in the same spot for days at a time, it's out of the bounds of acceptability that they don't hire someone to stand there and ban each bot that steps up. All one need do is call a temp agency and you can have a person there that day, you sit them down at a computer, take 1.37 minutes to explain how to identify a level 3 character in starter rags named tttkkksdddssss that stands at a jute node and clicks collect over and over, and show them which key to press to ban the bot.

You simply can not say they are working very hard to combat the issue when they fail to take even the simplest remedial steps.

It's like you call the police because someone is kicking in the front door of your house and they tell you they are working on an automated algorithm to detect home invasions. "But I SEE him kicking my door right now! Listen... BAM! BOOM! BAM!" "We understand sir, but we are working on an automated system that does not require manpower. We require your patience in this matter. We believe that by 2027 we'll have a system in place that will automatically arrest the criminal. In the meantime we suggest you just ignore the guy kicking in your door and go about your business."

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

So basically...

You want them to come up with permanent security fixes for bots (let's ignore that those will eventually be worked around, necessitating more fixes), but you don't want those fixes to take any time to implement? And you understand that a GM can't be permanently parked over your shoulder to watch for bots, but you're upset that they don't instantly swing the banhammer as soon as you see something?

Sounds reasonable.

Oh, and stop it with the home invasion/murder/whatever-serious-crime-you-want-to-use comparisons. It's a game. You'll live.

Khandi · May 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

So basically...

You want them to come up with permanent security fixes for bots (let's ignore that those will eventually be worked around, necessitating more fixes), but you don't want those fixes to take any time to implement? And you understand that a GM can't be permanently parked over your shoulder to watch for bots, but you're upset that they don't instantly swing the banhammer as soon as you see something?

Sounds reasonable.

Oh, and stop it with the home invasion/murder/whatever-serious-crime-you-want-to-use comparisons. It's a game. You'll live.

I think all he is saying is that in the mean time, just assign a random lackey to ban bots seeing how bots are everywhere.

Thunder · May 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

So basically...

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. You were so clever to see right through all the smoke and mirrors. When I said it's unacceptable that a level 3 bot in starter rags can camp the same jute node for days at a time, you were smart enough to see that I was actually demanding that they instantly and permanently fix every instance of botting worldwide.

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

Thunder wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

So basically...

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. You were so clever to see right through all the smoke and mirrors. When I said it's unacceptable that a level 3 bot in starter rags can camp the same jute node for days at a time, you were smart enough to see that I was actually demanding that they instantly and permanently fix every instance of botting worldwide.

Well, since this is a computer game, I'd rather that they come up with a wide-reaching fix that breaks all the bots using that code instead of having to repeatedly ban the same gold-seller who comes back on any one of his infinite stolen accounts.

To use your terrible analogy from earlier, it would be like having the police arrest a home invader as he's banging on your door, but in this world, the home invader is magic. So as soon as the police drive away, he teleports back to your door with a different face and starts banging again.

Thunder · May 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Oh, and stop it with the home invasion/murder/whatever-serious-crime-you-want-to-use comparisons. It's a game. You'll live.

You need to research what an analogy is. While it might appear to you that I'm equating a bot harvesting jute to murder, in all actuality I was emphasizing the ridiculous inaction of allowing a bot to stand in one spot for days at a time while they work on some higher form of mitigation.

seanolan · May 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

So basically...

You want them to come up with permanent security fixes for bots (let's ignore that those will eventually be worked around, necessitating more fixes), but you don't want those fixes to take any time to implement? And you understand that a GM can't be permanently parked over your shoulder to watch for bots, but you're upset that they don't instantly swing the banhammer as soon as you see something?

Sounds reasonable.

Oh, and stop it with the home invasion/murder/whatever-serious-crime-you-want-to-use comparisons. It's a game. You'll live.

God, do you EVER not come across as pompous, while completely missing the point of a post? Seriously, I am sorry to say this, but you are always critical of everyone's complaints and usually you completely misunderstand what the poster said. Do you read the posts before you respond to them? He's saying that a temp fix is completely possible and reasonable to expect, and he doesn't see any evidence of it being implemented. NOTHING about the crap you just spouted is anywhere in his post. Please, if you are going to respond to everything, take the time to read it thoroughly and think about your response before adding another point to your post count. After all, there are no more stars for you to get.

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

Thunder wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Oh, and stop it with the home invasion/murder/whatever-serious-crime-you-want-to-use comparisons. It's a game. You'll live.

You need to research what an analogy is. While it might appear to you that I'm equating a bot harvesting jute to murder, in all actuality I was emphasizing the ridiculous inaction of allowing a bot to stand in one spot for days at a time while they work on some higher form of mitigation.

And as you'll see in my above post, I was happy to extend your awful analogy as though a home invader were a gold-seller. Hitting these things with a one-time banhammer is worse than useless.

adam.s.jonesub17_ESO · May 2014

I agree I applaud the long term automated solution but there is no reason that they can't assign 1 person to run around and find the bots and just lay out the ban hammers. This is clearly important to the game's population so it is not a wasted resource. At minimum it will help preserve the economy and may even deter some of the gold sellers since they know their potential return on purchase is decreased.

I will say though my concern is that they are so numerous that they must be exploiting some security flaws and that they are not decreasing with bans because they just create a new account.

Thunder · May 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

To use your terrible analogy from earlier, it would be like having the police arrest a home invader as he's banging on your door, but in this world, the home invader is magic. So as soon as the police drive away, he teleports back to your door with a different face and starts banging again.

OH! So you HAVE heard of analogies before! You were simply being deliberately obtuse. Now we're getting somewhere.

Your analogy is flawed because the police do not have to arrest the criminal and drive away, they need merely click a button and the bad guy ceases to exist. They need only click a single button to make the bad guy go away, but the bad guy has to click all sorts of buttons for several minutes to come back. If he is immediately greeted with another instant ban, it won't take long for him to realize he's the one fighting a losing battle.

Trouvo · May 2014

So even tho they do have random GM lackeys that go through and ban bots on a frequent basis, many bots have been banned just from our reports, and many have been removed from our ignore lists now, the insta-autoban-GTFO algorithm isnt here fast enough and it should be, and that this should not effect the players in a negative fashion as well, but also work correctly immediately upon execution and should be done already regardless of the needed work and detail required to make something that wont accidently ban more players than have already been accidently banned?

I for one am happy ignoring them and reporting them and letting them get sorted as they get sorted rather than being banned for an attempt at stopping bots again....like when i mailed my hold guild since there is no better way to do that yet...least i got compensated but I still would not wish that aggravation on anyone else simply for the sake of BAN BOTS FASTER THAN BOTS CAN BOT CUZ BOTS BOT BOTTERS BOTTING BOTS. How many bots would a bot bot bot if a bot could bot bots? It would bot as many bots as a bot could bot if a bot could bot bots. *couldnt help that last sentence

Yankee · May 2014

Cool,

Another bot thread.

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

Thunder wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

To use your terrible analogy from earlier, it would be like having the police arrest a home invader as he's banging on your door, but in this world, the home invader is magic. So as soon as the police drive away, he teleports back to your door with a different face and starts banging again.

OH! So you HAVE heard of analogies before! You were simply being deliberately obtuse. Now we're getting somewhere.

Your analogy is flawed because the police do not have to arrest the criminal and drive away, they need merely click a button and the bad guy ceases to exist. They need only click a single button to make the bad guy go away, but the bad guy has to click all sorts of buttons for several minutes to come back. If he is immediately greeted with another instant ban, it won't take long for him to realize he's the one fighting a losing battle.

Yeah, because gold-sellers aren't persistent or anything. It's not like they do this all day every day forever.

WoW has been around for a decade. They still have issues with bots and gold-sellers. Things are better now than they were earlier, but if you look at any forum archives, you'll see daily posts about how Blizzard must be making money from the botters in some elaborate, Illuminati-level conspiracy.

The only effective way to deal with this issue is the way that developers already do. Observe bots. Break bots. Apply fixes and swing the banhammer. Lather, rinse, repeat.

If you want to get angry at someone, get angry at the players who are buying gold. They're the only reason this system even has to exist.

luckyjoemcb14_ESO · May 2014

adam.s.jonesub17_ESO wrote: »

I agree I applaud the long term automated solution but there is no reason that they can't assign 1 person to run around and find the bots and just lay out the ban hammers. This is clearly important to the game's population so it is not a wasted resource. At minimum it will help preserve the economy and may even deter some of the gold sellers since they know their potential return on purchase is decreased.

I will say though my concern is that they are so numerous that they must be exploiting some security flaws and that they are not decreasing with bans because they just create a new account.

The problem is, it would require more than just 1 person, due to the layers on the mega server, bots being in different locations etc.

I want the bots gone just as much as you do, however I understand that shy of banhammering gold buyers, employing an army of GM's, and possibly cutting off acess from IP's ( i dont even know that this one will work as they can use proxy servers ) It is not that simple.

I think Zeni needs to put more effort into this, So I agree with some of what has been said. However the gold sellers use stolen card numbers from gold buyers in this game and others to buy accounts, some of them are funded by the F2P market as well since several of the less known games are rather seedy.

Planting one gm or even ten on duty at all times is like trying to plug the holes in the dam with toilet paper.

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

seanolan wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

So basically...

You want them to come up with permanent security fixes for bots (let's ignore that those will eventually be worked around, necessitating more fixes), but you don't want those fixes to take any time to implement? And you understand that a GM can't be permanently parked over your shoulder to watch for bots, but you're upset that they don't instantly swing the banhammer as soon as you see something?

Sounds reasonable.

Oh, and stop it with the home invasion/murder/whatever-serious-crime-you-want-to-use comparisons. It's a game. You'll live.

God, do you EVER not come across as pompous, while completely missing the point of a post? Seriously, I am sorry to say this, but you are always critical of everyone's complaints and usually you completely misunderstand what the poster said. Do you read the posts before you respond to them? He's saying that a temp fix is completely possible and reasonable to expect, and he doesn't see any evidence of it being implemented. NOTHING about the crap you just spouted is anywhere in his post. Please, if you are going to respond to everything, take the time to read it thoroughly and think about your response before adding another point to your post count. After all, there are no more stars for you to get.

Funnily enough, the number of stars after my name has nothing to do with my post count. Rank is determined by points, which you only get from people actually supporting your posts by clicking those fancy buttons along the bottom.

Your lack of understanding about how bots are broken does not mean that I need to be less blunt with my opinions. The OP wrote a long-winded post attacking a system that they clearly don't understand. They would understand it if they'd even bothered to do a little research or played another MMO before. You don't like my tone? Fine. Feel free to address my argument if you have any points to raise.

Thunder · May 2014

Trouvo wrote: »

So even tho they do have random GM lackeys that go through and ban bots on a frequent basis, many bots have been banned just from our reports, and many have been removed from our ignore lists now, the insta-autoban-GTFO algorithm isnt here fast enough and it should be, and that this should not effect the players in a negative fashion as well, but also work correctly immediately upon execution and should be done already regardless of the needed work and detail required to make something that wont accidently ban more players than have already been accidently banned?

I for one am happy ignoring them and reporting them and letting them get sorted as they get sorted rather than being banned for an attempt at stopping bots again....like when i mailed my hold guild since there is no better way to do that yet...least i got compensated but I still would not wish that aggravation on anyone else simply for the sake of BAN BOTS FASTER THAN BOTS CAN BOT CUZ BOTS BOT BOTTERS BOTTING BOTS. How many bots would a bot bot bot if a bot could bot bots? It would bot as many bots as a bot could bot if a bot could bot bots. *couldnt help that last sentence

Everything in your first paragraph was clearly addressed in my original post. Rather than restate what has already been stated quite clearly, I suggest you reread it.

As for your second paragraph. If you're worried that you might get accidently banned for being a bot if you continuously harvest the same jute node over and over again for days at a time, albeit entirely manually, you can rest assured that exploiting a bug is an offense that warrants a ban in and of itself. However, to further clarify the issue, botting a bugged node is not some obscure and difficult to detect action, which was the entire point, it's immediately and clearly evident. Therefore no innocent people are going to be caught up in shuffle.

Jeremy · May 2014

Thunder wrote: »

...is something I keep hearing people say in defense of there being so many bots in game. They are wrong. Plain and simple.

I'm all for defending them where defense is warranted and attacks are unjustified. Most of the complaints are about design choices the developers purposefully put in to practice with the intention of creating a different experience than players might be accustomed to. When people say ESO is the worst game ever because they disagree with those design choices, they are in effect saying, "I bought a ham and cheese sandwich for lunch, but it doesn't have any peanut butter and jelly. This sandwich is bad. Everyone knows all sandwiches should have peanut butter and jelly. They need to fix this sandwich. I don't even like the ham and cheese, they should get rid of it and replace it with PB&J."

That's simply not fair. That's not just comparing apples to oranges, that's saying every fruit should be an orange.

Bots on the other hand are not an intended design choice. At least I assume they are not, if they are to be taken at their word. However, there is a wide range of what developers can do to combat bots. On one end of the spectrum you have absolutely nothing, and the other end they employ a GM to follow every player around and constantly monitor their activities.

We can all agree that doing absolutely nothing is not enough, just as we can all agree that following every single player around is far more than can be expected. Somewhere in the middle there is a zone of acceptability, this zone will be different for everyone as it's entirely subjective and based on personal opinion, yet there are actions that clearly cross the bounds of acceptability.

One such example is the jute bot. Level 3 characters, with names like kkasddksss, in starter rags, camped on continuously respawning jute. This isn't some sophisticated botting algorithm, this bot simply stands on the node and continually clicks collect jute. It's not even smart enough to move out of the way of attacks, which makes for great fun in killing them by dragging over a mob that casts AoE attacks. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to catch this master criminal, they literally stand in one place for hours at a time, days even.

Every once in awhile a GM launches into a publicity stunt where they announce to a zone, "I'm here to stamp out botting. PM me with any suspected bots and I will send them to oblivion!" That's all well and good, but if you can't even take care of the bots that literally just stand there all day long clicking the same node over and over, what are you accomplishing? Publicity.

Furthermore, Bethesimax can definitely be faulted for game design that is so easily botted. Something as simple as diminishing returns on fighting the same type of mob over and over again would make the combat bots that circle in big groups for days at a time entirely useless.

Yet, they should not hold out for an automated cure to botting. With bots literally just standing in the same spot for days at a time, it's out of the bounds of acceptability that they don't hire someone to stand there and ban each bot that steps up. All one need do is call a temp agency and you can have a person there that day, you sit them down at a computer, take 1.37 minutes to explain how to identify a level 3 character in starter rags named tttkkksdddssss that stands at a jute node and clicks collect over and over, and show them which key to press to ban the bot.

You simply can not say they are working very hard to combat the issue when they fail to take even the simplest remedial steps.

It's like you call the police because someone is kicking in the front door of your house and they tell you they are working on an automated algorithm to detect home invasions. "But I SEE him kicking my door right now! Listen... BAM! BOOM! BAM!" "We understand sir, but we are working on an automated system that does not require manpower. We require your patience in this matter. We believe that by 2027 we'll have a system in place that will automatically arrest the criminal. In the meantime we suggest you just ignore the guy kicking in your door and go about your business."

I have seen the bot situation improve dramatically over the last couple of weeks Thunder. So from my perspective at least, when they say they are working very hard to combat the issue I believe them, because the results speak for themselves.

That being said: I understand your experiences may be quite different than my own

Thunder · May 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The only effective way to deal with this issue is the way that developers already do. Observe bots. Break bots. Apply fixes and swing the banhammer. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Actually, it doesn't take a comprehensive understanding of string theory to be able to understand that the course of action I mentioned above would be 100% effective at removing the jute bots from the game. I don't care how tenacious a gold seller is, they are not going to go through the process of setting up a new account, creating a new character, and travelling to the node if they know they will be immediately banned.

I never claimed this was a long term solution, in fact I specifically mentioned hiring a temp worker. What you missed in my home invasion analogy when you got off on your "jute bots = murder" tear is that rather then simply acquiesce to the relentless botting of jute nodes while they work on fixing the issue, they could in fact, with very little effort, uphold the law of the land while they work on a permanent fix.

Laerania_ESO · May 2014

Botters maybe are not a design choice but are a consequence of design choices (and management) so following your analogy, you want this sandwich without peanut butter and jelly.

Trouvo · May 2014

Thunder wrote: »

Trouvo wrote: »

So even tho they do have random GM lackeys that go through and ban bots on a frequent basis, many bots have been banned just from our reports, and many have been removed from our ignore lists now, the insta-autoban-GTFO algorithm isnt here fast enough and it should be, and that this should not effect the players in a negative fashion as well, but also work correctly immediately upon execution and should be done already regardless of the needed work and detail required to make something that wont accidently ban more players than have already been accidently banned?

I for one am happy ignoring them and reporting them and letting them get sorted as they get sorted rather than being banned for an attempt at stopping bots again....like when i mailed my hold guild since there is no better way to do that yet...least i got compensated but I still would not wish that aggravation on anyone else simply for the sake of BAN BOTS FASTER THAN BOTS CAN BOT CUZ BOTS BOT BOTTERS BOTTING BOTS. How many bots would a bot bot bot if a bot could bot bots? It would bot as many bots as a bot could bot if a bot could bot bots. *couldnt help that last sentence

Everything in your first paragraph was clearly addressed in my original post. Rather than restate what has already been stated quite clearly, I suggest you reread it.

As for your second paragraph. If you're worried that you might get accidently banned for being a bot if you continuously harvest the same jute node over and over again for days at a time, albeit entirely manually, you can rest assured that exploiting a bug is an offense that warrants a ban in and of itself. However, to further clarify the issue, botting a bugged node is not some obscure and difficult to detect action, which was the entire point, it's immediately and clearly evident. Therefore no innocent people are going to be caught up in shuffle.

First, my first paragraph was entirely snide, im surprised that was missed lol.
Second, my circumstance was merely an example of one of the counter measures they took without taking into account legit player activity, as an example to deter against other possible scenarios for battling bots, as there are far more bots than just the ones who spam nodes, there are also dungeon bots, mob bots, email bots, guild invite bots, chat spam bots, whisper bots, yell bots, and even polka dot bots. Zeni is battling the issue as a whole rather than trying to find specific individual types of bots to just work on, and do it all at once with their magic algorithm, ignore and continue questing, if you really really need that jute that they are spamming log out for a few minutes and log back in you will hopefully be in another instance and voila no bot spoiling your day, and this is what you can do to appease your jute farming needs until Zeni can appropriately fix the issue as a whole rather than just the part you are seeing most, of course putting in a report on the bot helps too, but that might be too much to ask so I wont.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

seanolan wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

snip

LMAO.... LOL point added, I would also state I see Nerevarine1138 respond quite frequently on the forums and have never felt that what he stated was out of place, but the bluntness required and needed, plus I always appreciate a good LOL in the morning

Thunder · May 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Your lack of understanding about how bots are broken does not mean that I need to be less blunt with my opinions. The OP wrote a long-winded post attacking a system that they clearly don't understand. They would understand it if they'd even bothered to do a little research or played another MMO before. You don't like my tone? Fine. Feel free to address my argument if you have any points to raise.

The only lack of understanding is on your part. Multiple jute nodes are being hammered every second of every day. Somehow, even though you never seem to be able to demonstrate it, you claim that immediately and continuously banning the jute bots would somehow not stop them and the only possible course of action is to simply allow them to relentless hammer away at the nodes until a permanent fix can be implemented.

Personally, I'd like to see you take some of your own advice and "address my argument if you have any points to raise" if you are able instead of just saying, "won't work, you just don't understand." Enlighten me.

luckyjoemcb14_ESO · May 2014

Thunder wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The only effective way to deal with this issue is the way that developers already do. Observe bots. Break bots. Apply fixes and swing the banhammer. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Actually, it doesn't take a comprehensive understanding of string theory to be able to understand that the course of action I mentioned above would be 100% effective at removing the jute bots from the game. I don't care how tenacious a gold seller is, they are not going to go through the process of setting up a new account, creating a new character, and travelling to the node if they know they will be immediately banned.

I never claimed this was a long term solution, in fact I specifically mentioned hiring a temp worker. What you missed in my home invasion analogy when you got off on your "jute bots = murder" tear is that rather then simply acquiesce to the relentless botting of jute nodes while they work on fixing the issue, they could in fact, with very little effort, uphold the law of the land while they work on a permanent fix.

Actually your method will not be 100% effective, more like 20% for this reason.

3 jute bots are sitting at a node, 1 gm is present on the current layer of the shard, gm teleports in and bans all three 3 jute bots. Ok simple, now here is where we get into the complex part. All over the zone in three factions 3 jute bots stand at every 4th or 5th jute node. when the gm teleports to the new location of jute bots the three now banned farmers log into three new accounts, log in and start farming the node again, all the while sending mail every third or fourth harvest to the central collector of the jute, who then deposits said jute into the gb which is taken out by other gold farmers and distributed more widely. That one GM is now teleporting around to 20 or thirty different spawn points and taking a minute or so to ban the bots,( since he has to make sure they are bots first since if he caught an actual player with some silly name there would be a crap storm of epic proportions on the forums.) All the while the gold sellers from various companies are continuing to move product and Zeni starts to actually loose money now, because the games are bought digitally with stolen CC information that when discovered will result in them loosing the money from the sales. And they have to pay the gm or gms in this case since you assign one gm per zone at least.

So stopping botting is not as easy as it looks. But I completly understand your frustration. I am not trying to make you angry or troll you, and I am not white knighting Zeni ( Though I do love them)

KariTR · May 2014

No more random invites from gold-selling guilds.
Hardly any in-game junk mail getting through.
Gold-selling spam in zone chat unintelligible.

I put this forward as evidence that Zenimax are indeed working hard to combat the black market. Trust me, I hate to see bots as much as anyone, but the OP is just plain wrong.

Although I haven't come across one myself, the jute bot(s) probably serves a purpose by being allowed to remain in game at the moment. It's pretty contained and gives Zenimax time to gather info about the program being used and also the money trail. Then when bans do happen they can be all the more effective...for a week or so at least.

Thunder · May 2014

luckyjoemcb14_ESO wrote: »

So stopping botting is not as easy as it looks. But I completly understand your frustration. I am not trying to make you angry or troll you, and I am not white knighting Zeni ( Though I do love them)

I love them too, and I don't believe in white knighting. I have defended certain design choices they've made tooth and nail, and overall I'm very happy with the game. Contrary to what that one dude would have you believe, I do not feel like I'm being murdered in my sleep every time a bot harvests a jute node.

What you fail to address in your scenario is that setting up a jute bot is a time intensive process, yet banning a bot literally takes 10 seconds or less. You only need observe a bot harvesting the node 2-3 times in a row and you have a confirmed violation, exploiting a bug... BANNED! Next.

It takes hundreds of times longer to create an account, create a character, and travel that character to the jute node. Plus, it uses up a valuable resource, the account, which even if gained through nefarious activities, is still not free to them.

Furthermore, a jute node guardian need not be restricted by the mortality of conventional players. They could simultaneously monitor every jute node in the game, much like a security guard watches camera feeds to survey an entire complex. You could easily have a couple dozen, jute nodes on the screen at any given time.

Banning the jute botters would be 100% effective at eliminating jute botting.

luckyjoemcb14_ESO · May 2014

Thunder wrote: »

luckyjoemcb14_ESO wrote: »

So stopping botting is not as easy as it looks. But I completly understand your frustration. I am not trying to make you angry or troll you, and I am not white knighting Zeni ( Though I do love them)

I love them too, and I don't believe in white knighting. I have defended certain design choices they've made tooth and nail, and overall I'm very happy with the game. Contrary to what that one dude would have you believe, I do not feel like I'm being murdered in my sleep every time a bot harvests a jute node.

What you fail to address in your scenario is that setting up a jute bot is a time intensive process, yet banning a bot literally takes 10 seconds or less. You only need observe a bot harvesting the node 2-3 times in a row and you have a confirmed violation, exploiting a bug... BANNED! Next.

It takes hundreds of times longer to create an account, create a character, and travel that character to the jute node. Plus, it uses up a valuable resource, the account, which even if gained through nefarious activities, is still not free to them.

Furthermore, a jute node guardian need not be restricted by the mortality of conventional players. They could simultaneously monitor every jute node in the game, much like a security guard watches camera feeds to survey an entire complex. You could easily have a couple dozen, jute nodes on the screen at any given time.

Banning the jute botters would be 100% effective at eliminating jute botting.

Im afraid that you are missing how this actually works, Reloging for a gold farming operation is not a time intensive process, rather it is something done well ahead of time, the accounts are already bought (Usually several at a time), the characters are pre created ( the program just types in xxvnbn and good to go) and most of the time are already in place as safe guard for the ban waves. So when the program running the botting detects that it has been forced to log out, it automatically cues up the next account in system, logs it in and goes to town. And while the account is not "free" to them as it removes a resource, that resource is not as finite as you may think, since they will buy the games in bulk with one card, and only have a limited amount of time to use the accounts any ways before the theft is discovered.

Also I dont know why you think they would be able to monitor all of the jute nodes in an area but I dont think it actually works that way. Generally to gain any type of useful data the devs/GM's need to go through tons and tons of logs of what has been happening. So it does not work like a security feed especially if a system like that was not already in place. ( Which I doubt it is since a program could likely do the same thing ) Even if that worked that is only on facet of the problem, what about the bot trains chain killing fast mob spawns, gold spam, harvesting other nodes ( though to my knowledge on the juste nodes instantly respawn and not all of them do that)

Thunder · May 2014

luckyjoemcb14_ESO wrote: »

Im afraid that you are missing how this actually works, Reloging for a gold farming operation is not a time intensive process, rather it is something done well ahead of time, the accounts are already bought (Usually several at a time), the characters are pre created ( the program just types in xxvnbn and good to go) and most of the time are already in place as safe guard for the ban waves. So when the program running the botting detects that it has been forced to log out, it automatically cues up the next account in system, logs it in and goes to town. And while the account is not "free" to them as it removes a resource, that resource is not as finite as you may think, since they will buy the games in bulk with one card, and only have a limited amount of time to use the accounts any ways before the theft is discovered.

Also I dont know why you think they would be able to monitor all of the jute nodes in an area but I dont think it actually works that way. Generally to gain any type of useful data the devs/GM's need to go through tons and tons of logs of what has been happening. So it does not work like a security feed especially if a system like that was not already in place. ( Which I doubt it is since a program could likely do the same thing ) Even if that worked that is only on facet of the problem, what about the bot trains chain killing fast mob spawns, gold spam, harvesting other nodes ( though to my knowledge on the juste nodes instantly respawn and not all of them do that)

This is an example of one person thinking something doesn't seem like it could work to them.

However, it really would be that simple to stamp out jute botting. It's a fact that accounts are a finite resource for botters. A stolen credit card is only free to the one who stole it. Furthermore, it not even really free to them. If stolen credit cards were absolutely free, everyone would have one. The fact is there is a huge element of risk in stealing credit cards and credit card information. The person who takes that risk requires compensation. Even if it is the gold sellers themselves stealing credit card information, there is a finite amount of people to steal from.

Gold sellers are not going to continually burn through their accounts in an attempt to harvest jute if they know there is little or no chance of it actually being successful. Continually ban the jute bots as relentlessly as they have been hammering the jute nodes and they will stop... 100%.

As far as it being impossible to ban them, that's not true either. In fact, the developers have clearly demonstrated that they can personally go into the game and instantly ban accounts they observe botting. So the developers themselves are proof that you are wrong when you say, "the devs/GM's need to go through tons and tons of logs of what has been happening".

It would be elementary to whip up a security client if one does not already exist, however, I'm willing to play devil's advocate for a moment. Let's assume it would be difficult or impossible to create a security client that can instantly monitor any instance of any zone. We know that accounts are indeed an infinite and free resource for Bethesimax, so what you claim to be too difficult or impossible to implement through software, is something that is within anyone's grasp of creating through hardware. In fact, I've seen video of gold farmers in other games sitting in front of a dozen monitors all held together with shoe strings and duct tape farming multiple zones simultaneously. If a Chinese gold farmer can do it on a budget of 50 cents a day, I think Bethesimax can do it.

So, again, we're back to instantly banning the jute bots is 100% effective in eliminating jute botting.

However, you go on to say that's only one part of the puzzle. I agree. However, it's the smallest and most easily dealt with piece of the puzzle, the corner piece if you will. I used it as an example to support my contention that Bethesimax is not working very hard to combat the issue, no more, no less.

tinythinker · May 2014

Lots of frustration clearly remains over botting given the perpetual number of threads about it. From a customer service standpoint, there are always two things that get traction:

1) Dealing with an issue in a timely and effective manner.
2) Making the customers feel you are aware of the issue and that you are doing all you can about it.

It is amazing how far #2 can go, especially when you are upfront about the challenges of dealing with an issue. Some people do like those public displays of some GM coming in to destroy the bots, while some think it's an ineffective stunt.

Involving the customers in the resolution also helps, as they can feel proactive and see what dealing with the issue actually entails. Many people get frustrated because it seems like either their reports about bots are ignored or given some form letter response.

Maybe something more engaging, such as periodic "spot the bot" contests involving live GMs and gamers, would help in that regard. Then again, that would require an awful lot of GMs at once and would have to be limited to certain areas per attempt to be manageable, but if it could be pulled off it would give more direct feedback than the announcements that GMs are present and this in turn might help ease at least some of the complaints.

Not the best idea, more of a simplistic example of a broader concept, but anything that gives customers a sense of being taken seriously will help while more systemic approaches are being implemented and refined.