Health Recovery

Vaqual · September 16

I'd say it is just ever so slightly too weak. Buffing it too much would certainly not be good for the game. The other stats come with the advantage of either being unaffected by battle spirit (armor, crit chance, stam/mag recovery, wd/sd, etc...) or by doing more than just scaling heals (crit, resource and WD/WD give offensive strength and healing power, HP increases some heals and gives max HP lol).

Health recovery does only one thing, it is affected by battle spirit and gets nerfed by lava. Some sets grant it in a larger magnitude compared to other recoveries, but some sources are just too weak to be competitive. Especially:

-pure HP recovery glyphs
-2-4 piece HP recovery set bonuses (or monster sets for that matter, which is only engine guardian I think)
-steed mundus (movement and hp recovery should be two separate buffs and wd/sd can become merged)
-fortitude buffs

If each of those would receive a slight tweak it could end up in a better spot without the main crutches (sithis and strategic reserve, both of which have insane opportunity cost in PvP).

Iriidius · September 18

10-15% nerf will not change much, it used to be twice as strong and only got a problem when a few extremely overperforming set 5piece like eternal vigor, alessia, beekeeper, endurance were introduced and hp rec stackers only investing in these sets.

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I agree with this. Seeing a line of Health Recovery on a set these days feels like a deal breaker. It was also one of the biggest downsides to vampirism. It needed to be adjusted, but 50% absolutely killed it.

Eternal Vigor: "Adds 337 Stamina and Magicka Recovery while your Health is above 50%. Adds 1011 Health Recovery while your Health is 50% or less."

When I see this, my mind goes "Good set if I can keep my health from falling below 50%, at that point it turns useless"

Eternal Vigor Health Regen is still better than other health regen sets as its (5) piece bonus gives 3x as much health regen below 50% as it gives mag/stam regen above 50%, 3x as much health regen as it should give and more than 3x as much health regen as hundings/julianos/old_dragonguard give weapon dmg(300).

It used to be that juwelry glyphs, set boni(big or small) and other sources gave you the same number in health regen as in wpndmg/spelldmg/stamreg/magreg despite health regen beeing less useful. Then they added health regen for free(you have to pay in gold for more expensive buff food but not loose any stats for it) on golden buff food like sugar skulls and orzagas smoked bear haunch which already give slightly higher stats than their purple equivalent
For some reason zos released Eternal Vigor with 3x the health regen it should have, than tripled the health regen for all final set boni like (5) beekeeper and (3) endurance but not for minor set boni or juwelry glpyhs where it is still 1 health regen for 1 wpndmg/spelldmg/magreg/stamreg, than let battlespirit reduce all health regen by 50% no matter if you gave up same amount of other stats, a third or nothing to get it.

Health regen should get a new standart, 2 hp regen should have same value as 1 stamrec/magrec/wpndmg/spelldmg, minor set boni should give 258 insteat of 129, major set boni 600 insteat of 900 and juwelry glyphs 348 insteat of 169 in PvP after battlespirit and double that in PvE where it was never overperforming.
1 wpn dmg is clearly more valuable than 1(nobody using hp regen glpyhs or likes minor set boni) or 1.5 hp regen(nobody uses beekeeper/endurance/eternal vigor(except for sustain) after battlespirit reduction) but less than 3(hp regen sets before battlespirit reducing them were too strong so people asked for nerg, so 2 should be a fitting value

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

I get that the troll king meta was almost as bad as the current undeath meta but the battle Spirit nerf was pretty heavy handed. Health recovery and healing were never a 1:1 so while I understand battle Spirit affecting it, they shouldn't have been the same.

What annoys me is that Troll King, specifically, got a double nerf. Not only was it obviously affected by the Battle Spirit change, but 1-2 patches before that it was also nerfed directly. The net result was that it's now notably weak, even compared to other health recovery sets.

Troll King nerf especially makes no sense as it only gives health regen when you heal below 50% health and doesnt have full uptime while in the same update devs introduced eternal vigor that gets more hp regen when under 50%hp and compensated withh mag/stam regen when above and shortly after devs gave beekeeper same health regen at 100% uptime. They create health regen meta but nerf the one decent health regen set that existed before.

MincMincMinc · September 18

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Suggestion: buff health recovery by 10-15-%(in pvp)

Really this stemmed from a band aid fix due to the CP changes giving thousands of free health recovery on the PTS cycles.....just for nobody to slot those cp when live hit. If the game is fine and they introduce a feature, THAT feature should be addressed, not the rest of the game. We saw similar situations across the past decade, another one being the introduction of swift jewelry trait.

The band aid wound should have been addressed by now, but maybe zos is holding off on a more encompassing stat rework across the game. They have already done skill and set passes in a more uniform direction which is setting up for a stat rework for the hybridization. You know, make Weapon and spell damage just Damage.

For now where does health recovery sit as a stat. Math wise this should be somewhat simple 129wd vs 129HPrecov on generic stat based stamsorc.

Typically 50-60% of your healing will be through resVigor which scales roughly 1.5hp/wd/sec...... or 387hp/2s (193.5 w/battlespirit) I can pull actual numbers in game from cyro later incase scalings changed over the years.

129health recov line after buffs and battle spirit grants 78 heals per 2 sec

So one skill line of WD grants more than 2x heals/sec than one line of health recovery. Not to mention the WD heal is based off only one(half) of my heals. Oh and the 129wd also grants damage which is half the reason of taking it. So really in the end WD grants nearly 8x compared to a line of health recovery.

Edit: Keep in mind that health recov requires no effort or skill to utilize. The WD giving 8X more varies between 0x and 8x depending on player skill. In reality players may only achieve 5-7x of use in combat.

Vaqual · September 19

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Suggestion: buff health recovery by 10-15-%(in pvp)

Really this stemmed from a band aid fix due to the CP changes giving thousands of free health recovery on the PTS cycles.....just for nobody to slot those cp when live hit. If the game is fine and they introduce a feature, THAT feature should be addressed, not the rest of the game. We saw similar situations across the past decade, another one being the introduction of swift jewelry trait.

The band aid wound should have been addressed by now, but maybe zos is holding off on a more encompassing stat rework across the game. They have already done skill and set passes in a more uniform direction which is setting up for a stat rework for the hybridization. You know, make Weapon and spell damage just Damage.
For now where does health recovery sit as a stat. Math wise this should be somewhat simple 129wd vs 129HPrecov on generic stat based stamsorc.

Typically 50-60% of your healing will be through resVigor which scales roughly 1.5hp/wd/sec...... or 387hp/2s (193.5 w/battlespirit) I can pull actual numbers in game from cyro later incase scalings changed over the years.

129health recov line after buffs and battle spirit grants 78 heals per 2 sec

So one skill line of WD grants more than 2x heals/sec than one line of health recovery. Not to mention the WD heal is based off only one(half) of my heals. Oh and the 129wd also grants damage which is half the reason of taking it. So really in the end WD grants nearly 8x compared to a line of health recovery.

Edit: Keep in mind that health recov requires no effort or skill to utilize. The WD giving 8X more varies between 0x and 8x depending on player skill. In reality players may only achieve 5-7x of use in combat.

You are not accounting for resource expenditure. Heal + Resource saved compared to a healing ability is the benchmark.

MincMincMinc · September 19

Vaqual wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Suggestion: buff health recovery by 10-15-%(in pvp)

Really this stemmed from a band aid fix due to the CP changes giving thousands of free health recovery on the PTS cycles.....just for nobody to slot those cp when live hit. If the game is fine and they introduce a feature, THAT feature should be addressed, not the rest of the game. We saw similar situations across the past decade, another one being the introduction of swift jewelry trait.

The band aid wound should have been addressed by now, but maybe zos is holding off on a more encompassing stat rework across the game. They have already done skill and set passes in a more uniform direction which is setting up for a stat rework for the hybridization. You know, make Weapon and spell damage just Damage.
For now where does health recovery sit as a stat. Math wise this should be somewhat simple 129wd vs 129HPrecov on generic stat based stamsorc.

Typically 50-60% of your healing will be through resVigor which scales roughly 1.5hp/wd/sec...... or 387hp/2s (193.5 w/battlespirit) I can pull actual numbers in game from cyro later incase scalings changed over the years.

129health recov line after buffs and battle spirit grants 78 heals per 2 sec

So one skill line of WD grants more than 2x heals/sec than one line of health recovery. Not to mention the WD heal is based off only one(half) of my heals. Oh and the 129wd also grants damage which is half the reason of taking it. So really in the end WD grants nearly 8x compared to a line of health recovery.

Edit: Keep in mind that health recov requires no effort or skill to utilize. The WD giving 8X more varies between 0x and 8x depending on player skill. In reality players may only achieve 5-7x of use in combat.

You are not accounting for resource expenditure. Heal + Resource saved compared to a healing ability is the benchmark.

Thanks for bringing that up, but while I dont completely disagree with that aspect, I dont think it is worth as much consideration as a factor. Mainly due to the free amount of sustain in the game today. I have rebuilt my same 1vX setup from 7 years ago and now have nearly 4-5x the sustain in both mag and stam regen. With next to no aspects of my build in recovery, at no point am I considering regen a tough to get or needed stat in any build.

Part of a greater issue with the direction of the game, but as I said before zos may be looking to do a stat rework once other systems are finally reworked ahead of time. The game really needs its tension to be brought back between all the stats. Currently not all stats are equal. Example, go test a max stat vs WD vs Pen build. For dizzy swing:

slotting a line of stam will net you 1x damage output
Slotting a line of WD will net you ~1.8x damage compared to the max stam line
Slotting a line of Pen will net you ~ 2.4x damage compared to the max stam line

"Oh but max stam is sustain".......try testing a no max stat build, max stat builds died out when recoveries 4-5x their values. You dont need max capacity sustain. If you can recover 100% of your resources used per second, do large resource pools matter? === no point choosing max stam instead of weapon damage or pen

"Oh but WD also contributes to healing"........ Sure to a degree VERY build dependent. Most builds use in class max health based heals, on top of many heals in the game not scaling on anything. *cough* polar wind.

Ideally these methods of thinking above SHOULD hold salt, but they dont anymore. So you end up with a generic order of operations for build choice just going down the list of most efficient stats.

Triglyphs on everything(why not?), WD jewelry glyphs
Reinforced heavy chest, Impen on everything with well fitted depending on player skill
Bear haunch or jewels of misrule
Sustain mundus if extra is needed, otherwise pen mundus (shadow gets better than pen around 50-60% crit)
Stack pen until about your average enemy (26-30k)
Stack as much WD or resists as possible
Sort out other basic choices that are left

Love the other thread: Why are there so many 40khp tanks running around. They are not tanks..... that is just your normal build. Max stats are practically useless. So just run triglyphs and swap attributes to hp.

EDIT: I compared the healing values because they are the same metric. In an actual trade off, most cases you will be choosing between WD and Health regen on a build. If recovery was a more sought after stat I'm sure we could work out a way to numerically compare them.

katorga · September 19

The solution is to revamp how skills scale.

Damage = only weapon and spell damage
Healing - only magicka and stamina
Defense - rolldodge cost, sprint cost, block cost/percentage, damage shields only from health

MincMincMinc · September 19

katorga wrote: »

The solution is to revamp how skills scale.

Damage = only weapon and spell damage
Healing - only magicka and stamina
Defense - rolldodge cost, sprint cost, block cost/percentage, damage shields only from health

This would be a more clear route that brings tension back. Zos stated in interviews that they did not want to unroot players understanding of the game too drastically in one change by doing this. LOL

An alternative that wouldn't flip the iceberg would be: most damage skills will scale more with WD vs Stam for instance. My previous example where one line of WD provided 1.8x one line of stam in damage gains. Just inverse this scaling for healing skills. Where healing skills gain 1.8x with Max stat line compared to the damage line. They could also increase this gap patch by patch incrementally to transition players to the new system.

Having healing scale off a tank stat like max health will always lead to players being allowed to have their cake and eat it too. To allow these types of heals in games, you really have to make sure they are VERY active player skill wise. On skills like polar wind it is too simplistic with 0 thought to use. Not only is it a strong burst heal, but it heals allies, and provides an insane hot, all while scaling off of the easiest to stack tank stat since players dont need the other max stats.

Iriidius · September 19

MincMincMinc wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

The solution is to revamp how skills scale.

Damage = only weapon and spell damage
Healing - only magicka and stamina
Defense - rolldodge cost, sprint cost, block cost/percentage, damage shields only from health

This would be a more clear route that brings tension back. Zos stated in interviews that they did not want to unroot players understanding of the game too drastically in one change. LOL

An alternative that wouldn't flip the iceberg would be: most damage skills will scale more with WD vs Stam for instance. My previous example where one line of WD provided 1.8x one line of stam in damage gains. Just inverse this scaling for healing skills. Where healing skills gain 1.8x with Max stat line compared to the damage line. They could also increase this gap patch by patch incrementally to transition players to the new system.

Having healing scale off a tank stat like max health will always lead to players being allowed to have their cake and eat it too. To allow these types of heals in games, you really have to make sure they are VERY active player skill wise. On skills like polar wind it is too simplistic with 0 thought to use. Not only is it a strong burst heal, but it heals allies, and provides an insane hot, all while scaling off of the easiest to stack tank stat since players dont need the other max stats.

Or ZOS just could just give back the 20% max mag/stam from old cp system that were removed with new cp system for no reason to make maximum magicka/stamina give decent dmg/healing scaling again
(either like it was as part of the cp system,as a character buff every player has, buff all sources of maximum stam/mag or in another way).

Iriidius · September 19

Or make healing not scale with stats like dark deal and critical surge

MincMincMinc · September 19

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

The solution is to revamp how skills scale.

Damage = only weapon and spell damage
Healing - only magicka and stamina
Defense - rolldodge cost, sprint cost, block cost/percentage, damage shields only from health

This would be a more clear route that brings tension back. Zos stated in interviews that they did not want to unroot players understanding of the game too drastically in one change. LOL

An alternative that wouldn't flip the iceberg would be: most damage skills will scale more with WD vs Stam for instance. My previous example where one line of WD provided 1.8x one line of stam in damage gains. Just inverse this scaling for healing skills. Where healing skills gain 1.8x with Max stat line compared to the damage line. They could also increase this gap patch by patch incrementally to transition players to the new system.

Having healing scale off a tank stat like max health will always lead to players being allowed to have their cake and eat it too. To allow these types of heals in games, you really have to make sure they are VERY active player skill wise. On skills like polar wind it is too simplistic with 0 thought to use. Not only is it a strong burst heal, but it heals allies, and provides an insane hot, all while scaling off of the easiest to stack tank stat since players dont need the other max stats.

Or ZOS just could just give back the 20% max mag/stam from old cp system that were removed with new cp system for no reason to make maximum magicka/stamina give decent dmg/healing scaling again
(either like it was as part of the cp system,as a character buff every player has, buff all sources of maximum stam/mag or in another way).

I am 90% certain they just baked that bonus into your base stats and did not remove it.

Making skills not scale with stats would just push more players to continue only stacking damage or tankiness with heals being free. Put together any stamsorc build and it is just slotting pen and resists since no stats scale your healing.

Iriidius · September 19

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

The solution is to revamp how skills scale.

Damage = only weapon and spell damage
Healing - only magicka and stamina
Defense - rolldodge cost, sprint cost, block cost/percentage, damage shields only from health

This would be a more clear route that brings tension back. Zos stated in interviews that they did not want to unroot players understanding of the game too drastically in one change. LOL

An alternative that wouldn't flip the iceberg would be: most damage skills will scale more with WD vs Stam for instance. My previous example where one line of WD provided 1.8x one line of stam in damage gains. Just inverse this scaling for healing skills. Where healing skills gain 1.8x with Max stat line compared to the damage line. They could also increase this gap patch by patch incrementally to transition players to the new system.

Having healing scale off a tank stat like max health will always lead to players being allowed to have their cake and eat it too. To allow these types of heals in games, you really have to make sure they are VERY active player skill wise. On skills like polar wind it is too simplistic with 0 thought to use. Not only is it a strong burst heal, but it heals allies, and provides an insane hot, all while scaling off of the easiest to stack tank stat since players dont need the other max stats.

Or ZOS just could just give back the 20% max mag/stam from old cp system that were removed with new cp system for no reason to make maximum magicka/stamina give decent dmg/healing scaling again
(either like it was as part of the cp system,as a character buff every player has, buff all sources of maximum stam/mag or in another way).

I am 90% certain they just baked that bonus into your base stats and did not remove it.

Making skills not scale with stats would just push more players to continue only stacking damage or tankiness with heals being free. Put together any stamsorc build and it is just slotting pen and resists since no stats scale your healing.

Increasing the base stats as compensation made investing into it even less attraktive as now you have almost enaugh base maximum ressoursse for a viable pool and need to invest less to reach it.

Making heals free would maybe not prevent people from stacking dmg or tankiness, but it would also not reward them by scaling with it.

MincMincMinc · September 19

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

The solution is to revamp how skills scale.

Damage = only weapon and spell damage
Healing - only magicka and stamina
Defense - rolldodge cost, sprint cost, block cost/percentage, damage shields only from health

This would be a more clear route that brings tension back. Zos stated in interviews that they did not want to unroot players understanding of the game too drastically in one change. LOL

An alternative that wouldn't flip the iceberg would be: most damage skills will scale more with WD vs Stam for instance. My previous example where one line of WD provided 1.8x one line of stam in damage gains. Just inverse this scaling for healing skills. Where healing skills gain 1.8x with Max stat line compared to the damage line. They could also increase this gap patch by patch incrementally to transition players to the new system.

Having healing scale off a tank stat like max health will always lead to players being allowed to have their cake and eat it too. To allow these types of heals in games, you really have to make sure they are VERY active player skill wise. On skills like polar wind it is too simplistic with 0 thought to use. Not only is it a strong burst heal, but it heals allies, and provides an insane hot, all while scaling off of the easiest to stack tank stat since players dont need the other max stats.

Or ZOS just could just give back the 20% max mag/stam from old cp system that were removed with new cp system for no reason to make maximum magicka/stamina give decent dmg/healing scaling again
(either like it was as part of the cp system,as a character buff every player has, buff all sources of maximum stam/mag or in another way).

I am 90% certain they just baked that bonus into your base stats and did not remove it.

Making skills not scale with stats would just push more players to continue only stacking damage or tankiness with heals being free. Put together any stamsorc build and it is just slotting pen and resists since no stats scale your healing.

Increasing the base stats as compensation made investing into it even less attraktive as now you have almost enaugh base maximum ressoursse for a viable pool and need to invest less to reach it.

Making heals free would maybe not prevent people from stacking dmg or tankiness, but it would also not reward them by scaling with it.

Really I wanted them to remove that flat stat boost entirely. Right now the problem is tension. The only way to tension the rope that is Max stat(mag/stam) is to reduce sustain and recovery. You should really try on a build to drop all of your max mag/stam in favor for health. Use Orzorgas bear haunch or Jewels of Misrule. Swap all of your attributes to health. Just off tristats alone you will sit around 15k resources and likely not notice a difference in gameplay. Much like in RTS games, resource capacity is not needed if the input(regen) vs output(skill costs) balances out.

They made max mag/stam contribute to damage and healing so that there is another method of giving it tension. However since skills scale so poorly to the point where choosing pen instead of max stat is 2.4x the gain..... why would you ever make that choice?