Tarnished Nightmare still stacking with other burst procs and making horrible noise in PvP

silky_soft · September 3

Not all nb are the problem. Not ruling out exploits, but it's low ping players in general. Specifically sub 100. Even with a macro you cannot do what a low ping nb can at 250ms. It's gotten worse over the years. There is too much server check going on between each action. Especially on melee range position check compared to heat seeking ranged button mash.

250ms is enough that you have to run on the other side of players just to hit them. But then the game won't let you register a melee skill unless you look at them. So you got to back pedal losing speed and position check on the sever. Then you get stuck halfway skilling, unable to move and most likely die. Low ping gets a constant flow of position checks on them and their target. That's just how it works.

I've done a poll on here once and 60% responded they played on 100+ ms. I've played at 100ms lower ping before and it's quality of life changing. But I still wasn't able to do the not be seen cloak dump.

The latest imbalance between high and low ping is contingency. You'll load up the skill, do your skill cost to proc the condition, maybe a few others and a Dodge roll, then it will proc while your not near your target or they've escaped. Low ping any class uses contingency, instant registration when they skill.

Alchimiste1 · September 3

silky_soft wrote: »

Not all nb are the problem. Not ruling out exploits, but it's low ping players in general. Specifically sub 100. Even with a macro you cannot do what a low ping nb can at 250ms. It's gotten worse over the years. There is too much server check going on between each action. Especially on melee range position check compared to heat seeking ranged button mash.

250ms is enough that you have to run on the other side of players just to hit them. But then the game won't let you register a melee skill unless you look at them. So you got to back pedal losing speed and position check on the sever. Then you get stuck halfway skilling, unable to move and most likely die. Low ping gets a constant flow of position checks on them and their target. That's just how it works.

I've done a poll on here once and 60% responded they played on 100+ ms. I've played at 100ms lower ping before and it's quality of life changing. But I still wasn't able to do the not be seen cloak dump.

The latest imbalance between high and low ping is contingency. You'll load up the skill, do your skill cost to proc the condition, maybe a few others and a Dodge roll, then it will proc while your not near your target or they've escaped. Low ping any class uses contingency, instant registration when they skill.

you can unironically land some of the cleanest possible incap+bow combos specifically if you have high ping. It's a double-edged sword

Bushido2513 · September 3

Meurto wrote: »

There are far better combos than tarnished for stacking damage in a small window so I don't really see tarnished as a huge issue. Honestly brawlers have it pretty good. You can essentially build for great damage, great defense, great sustain and great healing without really sacrificing anything. There isn't any other game where you can basically be good at everything without really sacrificing anything.

I saw the comment earlier about 12 (maybe it was 14?) people clicking a ranged attack while you were busy fighting other players in melee range. In my mind it is simply 12 (or whatever the number is) attackers and at what point is it reasonable to expect numbers to overtake you? You see brawlers all the time exploiting LOS around trees, rocks, towers (whatever they can) all the while keeping topped off and tanking damage before ult dumping into the group.

You don't see this in BGs and it is no real secret has performance issues, but is this something you balance around? We are still in a fairly tanky meta with players running 30k+ hp and still pumping out loads of dmg. Defense still outscales offense and the ability for anyone to instantly recover from <10% health is fairly obnoxious.

That's 12 hard hitting ranged attacks that quickly stack damage on your. I could be wrong but think of it this way. Can you find another set or combo that has such an easy proc condition that hits just as hard at the same range?

Other sets that do similar damage at range allow more time to react and I think that's what is missing with Tarnished. You really only need about 2 tarnished users to kill someone that isn't super tanky and it happens in an almost instant window. I posted a stream in another the thread or maybe this one where someone just kept following the streamer and hitting them with Tarnished. The person would be doing fairly ok against multiple enemies and then get ended by the tarnished user.

The set isn't open by itself it's just that it adds to much easily repeatable high burst that chains with other burst a bit too well

Theignson · September 3

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

kookie wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

And as I stated before, Tarnished is ridiculous, but no, removing it won't do jack to stop NBs ganking.

Ganking is fine. Zero risk one button to chunk half anyone's health isn't.

Good. Kill or be killed. Stop playing so passively and you're fine. Use positioning or win the race.

Nice try, but the person sitting in 100% zero risk safety is not playing actively. They press one button. I'm out there brawling with multiples in my face while 100% zero risk safety non-pvpers let their burst procs play the game for them. You make reference to the Azureblight thread, the literal complete opposite, a pressure attack you can see from a mile away.

Having tried all these builds myself, I am not sure there is such a big difference between a one button hit from stealth and a 3 button.

Yesterday arrius was surrounded by about 70 attackers, I was out there engaging a big group, when suddenly from stealth was hit with the sorcerors special proc build:

1)Thundercaller proc 2) crystal weapon 3) heavy attack 4) tarnished 5) anthelmir 6) status effect 7) weapon enchant 8) magic soul (with direct + sorcerers class).
Thats at least 9 things hitting within a 0.6 second window.

Then a second light attack with crystal, plus the damage from the 12 in front of me, finished me off.

I think that was most of it. Now, how many buttons is that? You push heavy attack, then cancel it with magic soul. Do we count hitting a button to stealth and hitting a button to apply crystal weapon?

No, because it is all in the safety of stealth. Two buttons vs one is a distinction without a difference.

The issue is they broke their own rule about procs hitting at the same time. True, Anthelmirs is delayed about 0.4 seconds, but in a heavy battle it makes no difference.

I've run the sorcerer build above but instead of the 3rd proc set use shattered fate. It is very deadly. But it is also wrong!! Should I not use it because its over powered? Thats not how the game is played

MEBengalsFan2001 · September 8

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I can assure you it would not hit harder than Concealed Weapon (which was weird to bring up in the first place since my comment was talking about Snipe)

Okay look. The fact that we're even comparing an instant 41m range stealth burst proc to real skills with drawbacks like melee range, cast times, or pressing buttons. That shouldn't happen at all and should tell you how busted this is. This is exactly the free damage, playing the game for you, carry set thing that everyone has complained about for years.

IMO gear that comes from a dungeon, trial, or arena it should be limited to pve only. If gear is from pvp content it should not work in pve. If gear is overland or crafted it’s free for both types of content. This would imo greatly improve this game.

Vaqual · September 8

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I can assure you it would not hit harder than Concealed Weapon (which was weird to bring up in the first place since my comment was talking about Snipe)

Okay look. The fact that we're even comparing an instant 41m range stealth burst proc to real skills with drawbacks like melee range, cast times, or pressing buttons. That shouldn't happen at all and should tell you how busted this is. This is exactly the free damage, playing the game for you, carry set thing that everyone has complained about for years.

IMO gear that comes from a dungeon, trial, or arena it should be limited to pve only. If gear is from pvp content it should not work in pve. If gear is overland or crafted it’s free for both types of content. This would imo greatly improve this game.

I disagree. I think this is a cheap fix, while we can expect an elegant solution.

TechMaybeHic · September 12

Thinking I am going to run 40k health builds just because tarnished and other things that hit from ranged while fighting others take too big of chunks. Don't really have a lot of choice other than just be fighting and dead instantly when seemingly fine. Just too much damage for no setup

DrSlaughtr · September 15

I'm okay with nerfing tarnished but you have to make up the damage somewhere else because for 2 years players have gravitated toward high survivability, thanks to changes made beginning with Waking Flame.

So fine. Kill tarnished. While we're at it, increase the damage against shields in Bastion to 30%. Make healing scale with resource, not damage. And add a new negative trait on heavy armor that decreases output damage by 2% per piece worn. 😁

xylena_lazarow · September 17

Praise Sithis.

Unfadingsilence · September 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Praise Sithis.

Be testing it on the PTS and it's still extremely strong

Theignson · September 17

As it currently is, tarnished hits first and Anthelmir hits last around 0.9 seconds. The new change will make Anthelmir hit and then Tarnished hit 0.4 seconds later.

I'm guessing wil still be a lot of damage coming in but at least a couple hundred millisecs to react

YandereGirlfriend · September 17

Theignson wrote: »

As it currently is, tarnished hits first and Anthelmir hits last around 0.9 seconds. The new change will make Anthelmir hit and then Tarnished hit 0.4 seconds later.

I'm guessing wil still be a lot of damage coming in but at least a couple hundred millisecs to react

Should have just made it melee and direct damage only.