Tarnished Nightmare still stacking with other burst procs and making horrible noise in PvP

xylena_lazarow

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I can assure you it would not hit harder than Concealed Weapon (which was weird to bring up in the first place since my comment was talking about Snipe)

Okay look. The fact that we're even comparing an instant 41m range stealth burst proc to real skills with drawbacks like melee range, cast times, or pressing buttons. That shouldn't happen at all and should tell you how busted this is. This is exactly the free damage, playing the game for you, carry set thing that everyone has complained about for years.

Thumbless_Bot

Theignson wrote: »

I agree with the comment about decreased damage with range.

I think merciless resolve should only be effective in melee range (7m). No risk, no reward.

Make tarnished a melee only proc. That'll cool some ardor.

Although I appreciate the kind comment that the 3 button is more like a combination-- and I ghuess its true. Its not like any other combinaiton is much more than 3 buttons.

So I suppose on my sorc I have to push crystal weapon, then push crouch, then push heavy attack, cancel it with silver shards, add an endless fury

---

I guess thats 5 buttons Plus my Sorc cannot stealth

They already have the code for this, to reduce damage based on distance. Point Blank snipe.

Basic physics tells us that things slow down as they travel through the air due to friction.

Spec bow is 28m and is a 'bow' skill so I would only recommend diminished damage based on distance.

This would solve so many pvp issues and could be under battle spirit so pve wouldn't be impacted.

Just want to add that I think this would add a really fun and new dynamic to the game.

Meurto

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is absolutely pathetic, this guy's free no risk proc did double the damage of Bow's strongest skill.

And no this alone doesn't kill me, there were several focusing me here, but having to deal with one button invisible ranged 14k free damage nonsense every few seconds while I'm dealing with the guys in my face, not great PvP experience.

The only offensive thing I see in that log is focused aim only critting for 3200 which is only 200 more damage then the light attack.

Aurielle

I am honestly so sick of hearing this sound. I don’t even care about the damage it does, or the way I get hate tells if I dare to pop one of the drooling NPCs who run this set out of stealth — hearing that awful noise constantly (whether in Cyrodiil, BGs, or IC) is beyond irritating. It’s to the point now where I’m considering putting myself at a disadvantage and muting the entire game.

If I knew how to develop addons, I’d develop one to completely silence this stupid proc.

xylena_lazarow

Meurto wrote: »

The only offensive thing I see in that log is focused aim only critting for 3200 which is only 200 more damage then the light attack.

There are many things wrong with this picture, yes. When even a "bad" build can drop 14k damage with one button at invisible 41m range, yeah I guess you could call that "offensive" if you want. Like if this player was running something more appropriate for ganking than Way of Fire, I could've easily been ganked 1v1, not needing the help of zergers.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

The only offensive thing I see in that log is focused aim only critting for 3200 which is only 200 more damage then the light attack.

There are many things wrong with this picture, yes. When even a "bad" build can drop 14k damage with one button at invisible 41m range, yeah I guess you could call that "offensive" if you want. Like if this player was running something more appropriate for ganking than Way of Fire, I could've easily been ganked 1v1, not needing the help of zergers.

Just do like everyone else these days and build a hybrid tank DPS. The tank meta just keeps going up and up thanks to this set which is a shame but understandable.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just do like everyone else these days and build a hybrid tank DPS.

You wanna see what happens to an individual Tarnished ganker against me?


It's dozens and dozens of players clicking 1 button to do 14k damage from 100% safety, zero attempt PvP, every 8 seconds and immediately coming back to do this again after I kill them (repeatedly), sure I often X them too, but it is simply not a FUN experience to have to constantly play around this garbage.

Bashev

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just do like everyone else these days and build a hybrid tank DPS.

You wanna see what happens to an individual Tarnished ganker against me?


It's dozens and dozens of players clicking 1 button to do 14k damage from 100% safety, zero attempt PvP, every 8 seconds and immediately coming back to do this again after I kill them (repeatedly), sure I often X them too, but it is simply not a FUN experience to have to constantly play around this garbage.

This is Cyro, it is like this since day 1 when we had no proc sets. If Tarnished is removed, even if all proc sets are removed these NBs in stealth will charge their attacks and still do some percentage of your health from safe distance.

xylena_lazarow

Bashev wrote: »

This is Cyro, it is like this since day 1 when we had no proc sets. If Tarnished is removed, even if all proc sets are removed these NBs in stealth will charge their attacks and still do some percentage of your health from safe distance.

This is absolutely untrue. Remove Tarnished and there's no more instantaneous ranged proc stacking. It is the lone outlier here. Otherwise, maybe we could go the route of nerfing range damage across the board.

Bashev

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

This is Cyro, it is like this since day 1 when we had no proc sets. If Tarnished is removed, even if all proc sets are removed these NBs in stealth will charge their attacks and still do some percentage of your health from safe distance.

This is absolutely untrue. Remove Tarnished and there's no more instantaneous ranged proc stacking. It is the lone outlier here. Otherwise, maybe we could go the route of nerfing range damage across the board.

I am telling you from experience, we had no proc sets, and still we had the same issue. Do you really think that if they remove Tarnished and your issue will be solved? Then will come the next proc set that does 2k less damage but still will be noticeable.

xylena_lazarow

Bashev wrote: »

I am telling you from experience, we had no proc sets, and still we had the same issue. Do you really think that if they remove Tarnished and your issue will be solved? Then will come the next proc set that does 2k less damage but still will be noticeable.

No proc ganking was only a problem in 2014 when the Defile on Lethal Arrow stacked, and a few years ago when Sorcs could load up both Crystal and Crushing onto a stealth Overload. Every other "free damage" problem in game history has been some sort of burst proc stacking with things it shouldn't. Camo Hunter on humans, rng 15k Skorias, old Viper, old Calu, etc.

Meanwhile, people screamed and cried over Savage Werewolf and MDW because you can't stand still and spam 1 button to "just heal through it" almost like that's the entire point, everything should have a counter, so sure let's leave ranged stealth burst proc stacking in the game and give us back 45 second detect pots, original DK wings, and 20sec dmg shields.

katorga

Bashev wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

This is Cyro, it is like this since day 1 when we had no proc sets. If Tarnished is removed, even if all proc sets are removed these NBs in stealth will charge their attacks and still do some percentage of your health from safe distance.

This is absolutely untrue. Remove Tarnished and there's no more instantaneous ranged proc stacking. It is the lone outlier here. Otherwise, maybe we could go the route of nerfing range damage across the board.

I am telling you from experience, we had no proc sets, and still we had the same issue. Do you really think that if they remove Tarnished and your issue will be solved? Then will come the next proc set that does 2k less damage but still will be noticeable.

True but harder; NB has received some serious buffs since the old days. Right now, I cloak, cast wield soul (frost) proc tarnished and winterborn, finish with a merciless. That is on a build with about 6-7K spell damage, 55-100% crit rate, capped crit damage, capped movement speed and permanent major protection, which was not possible back in the day.

xylena_lazarow

katorga wrote: »

True but harder; NB has received some serious buffs since the old days. Right now, I cloak, cast wield soul (frost) proc tarnished and winterborn, finish with a merciless. That is on a build with about 6-7K spell damage, 55-100% crit rate, capped crit damage, capped movement speed and permanent major protection, which was not possible back in the day.

And that proc stack artifically adds 10-20k instant ranged burst without pressing buttons.

Reverb

BetterAtChess wrote: »

Oh dear, still Elder Cheese Online is it?

ESO generally has really good sound design; the Tarnished proc is NOT an example of this. I find even ESO PVP streams have become annoying to watch because of the prevalence of this intrusive effect.

They should change the breaking glass sound to the sound of a huge cheese sandwich hitting a wall of cheddar.

You’re so right about this. The incessant sound of Tarnished procs has not only ruined my play time but also my stream watching. I don’t want to hear it when I play anymore, so I don’t pvp much. I don’t want to hear it when I watch streams anymore, so I check out other games instead. I am so over that sound.

Bushido2513

Reverb wrote: »

BetterAtChess wrote: »

Oh dear, still Elder Cheese Online is it?

ESO generally has really good sound design; the Tarnished proc is NOT an example of this. I find even ESO PVP streams have become annoying to watch because of the prevalence of this intrusive effect.

They should change the breaking glass sound to the sound of a huge cheese sandwich hitting a wall of cheddar.

You’re so right about this. The incessant sound of Tarnished procs has not only ruined my play time but also my stream watching. I don’t want to hear it when I play anymore, so I don’t pvp much. I don’t want to hear it when I watch streams anymore, so I check out other games instead. I am so over that sound.

Spent a good part of the stream getting stream snipped by a tarnish user. Gets boring and repetitive pretty fast.

https://www.youtube.com/live/65amFFGULI4?si=q7gL504J9UzX9-n4

CameraBeardThePirate

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

This is Cyro, it is like this since day 1 when we had no proc sets. If Tarnished is removed, even if all proc sets are removed these NBs in stealth will charge their attacks and still do some percentage of your health from safe distance.

This is absolutely untrue. Remove Tarnished and there's no more instantaneous ranged proc stacking. It is the lone outlier here. Otherwise, maybe we could go the route of nerfing range damage across the board.

Just ~2 years ago we had crushing shock nb gankers that were not using procs and were still able to 100-0 people.

And as I stated before, Tarnished is ridiculous, but no, removing it won't do jack to stop NBs ganking.

katorga

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

I am telling you from experience, we had no proc sets, and still we had the same issue. Do you really think that if they remove Tarnished and your issue will be solved? Then will come the next proc set that does 2k less damage but still will be noticeable.

No proc ganking was only a problem in 2014 when the Defile on Lethal Arrow stacked, and a few years ago when Sorcs could load up both Crystal and Crushing onto a stealth Overload. Every other "free damage" problem in game history has been some sort of burst proc stacking with things it shouldn't. Camo Hunter on humans, rng 15k Skorias, old Viper, old Calu, etc.

Meanwhile, people screamed and cried over Savage Werewolf and MDW.....

I wonder if DK Pyrebrand set recreates the old ranged Savage Werewolf model.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

This is Cyro, it is like this since day 1 when we had no proc sets. If Tarnished is removed, even if all proc sets are removed these NBs in stealth will charge their attacks and still do some percentage of your health from safe distance.

This is absolutely untrue. Remove Tarnished and there's no more instantaneous ranged proc stacking. It is the lone outlier here. Otherwise, maybe we could go the route of nerfing range damage across the board.

Just ~2 years ago we had crushing shock nb gankers that were not using procs and were still able to 100-0 people.

And as I stated before, Tarnished is ridiculous, but no, removing it won't do jack to stop NBs ganking.

draugrkin/way of fire, LA weave crushing into Merciless....surprisingly effective. Still is.

xylena_lazarow

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

And as I stated before, Tarnished is ridiculous, but no, removing it won't do jack to stop NBs ganking.

Ganking is fine. Zero risk one button to chunk half anyone's health isn't.

ShadowProc

Agree with the sound. Completely disagree with nerfing it. Out of all the problems I wouldn’t go after ganking. Not until sorcs are brought down to earth and unkillable tanks are nerfed. That doesn’t make any sense. They are moving things in the right direction now towards players being killable again. Well built sorcs, wardens, and DKs that are near impossible to kill is the problem.
Just because something is annoying when you’re outnumbered doesn’t mean it needs to be nerfed. You even said solo a single ganker is not a problem for you. Enough said. Balance is not geared towards outnumbered situations with things that are annoying for you.

kookie

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

And as I stated before, Tarnished is ridiculous, but no, removing it won't do jack to stop NBs ganking.

Ganking is fine. Zero risk one button to chunk half anyone's health isn't.

Good. Kill or be killed. Stop playing so passively and you're fine. Use positioning or win the race.

xylena_lazarow

kookie wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

And as I stated before, Tarnished is ridiculous, but no, removing it won't do jack to stop NBs ganking.

Ganking is fine. Zero risk one button to chunk half anyone's health isn't.

Good. Kill or be killed. Stop playing so passively and you're fine. Use positioning or win the race.

Nice try, but the person sitting in 100% zero risk safety is not playing actively. They press one button. I'm out there brawling with multiples in my face while 100% zero risk safety non-pvpers let their burst procs play the game for them. You make reference to the Azureblight thread, the literal complete opposite, a pressure attack you can see from a mile away.

xylena_lazarow

Tarnished range proc stacking and the pull sets aren't literally unbeatable or uncounterable, but they add up to frequent "haha screw you" moments in this PvP that do not need to exist. Ganking and bombing were fine and good before these things existed, and will be fine and good after.

Meurto

There are far better combos than tarnished for stacking damage in a small window so I don't really see tarnished as a huge issue. Honestly brawlers have it pretty good. You can essentially build for great damage, great defense, great sustain and great healing without really sacrificing anything. There isn't any other game where you can basically be good at everything without really sacrificing anything.

I saw the comment earlier about 12 (maybe it was 14?) people clicking a ranged attack while you were busy fighting other players in melee range. In my mind it is simply 12 (or whatever the number is) attackers and at what point is it reasonable to expect numbers to overtake you? You see brawlers all the time exploiting LOS around trees, rocks, towers (whatever they can) all the while keeping topped off and tanking damage before ult dumping into the group.

You don't see this in BGs and it is no real secret has performance issues, but is this something you balance around? We are still in a fairly tanky meta with players running 30k+ hp and still pumping out loads of dmg. Defense still outscales offense and the ability for anyone to instantly recover from <10% health is fairly obnoxious.

silky_soft

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The set is straight up bugged. I won't talk about the specifics here for TOS reasons but it is being actively abused by certain groups.

Bugged like oakfathers where it's taking your own buffs into the equation?

bladenick

silky_soft wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The set is straight up bugged. I won't talk about the specifics here for TOS reasons but it is being actively abused by certain groups.

Bugged like oakfathers where it's taking your own buffs into the equation?

Could you give more detail regrading bug of oakfather

silky_soft

Chuck the set on. Slap on a ground buff, like path. Watch your stats go up. People say its a UI error. But crabs don't have buffs.

SaffronCitrusflower

NB's are seriously overdue for a major nerf in at lest three different ways.

-Engaging in a fight should pull NB out of stealth
-Stealth should have the "streak treatment", meaning that every use of the "skill" within 30 seconds should double the cost
-Once in combat, cloak should not be an option for 30 seconds

divnyi

Meurto wrote: »

You don't see this in BGs and it is no real secret has performance issues, but is this something you balance around? We are still in a fairly tanky meta with players running 30k+ hp and still pumping out loads of dmg. Defense still outscales offense and the ability for anyone to instantly recover from <10% health is fairly obnoxious.

We are not in the tank meta though. We are in one of the least tankiest meta I'd say.

But regardless, I wanted to address other problem - NBs dealing high burst is the reason why people build tanks in the first place. You can't go out with less than 30k (unless you have some crazy set or mythic for defense) and not be instakilled by a single NB, without the ability to fight back as the kills happens in 2 GCDs with stun.

As for bruisers in cyro and LOS: CP add a whole lot of survivability. Free 10% speed, free sustains, free damage reductions. If BGs would have that (luckily they don't), it would be the same clown fiesta. You can LOS in BGs. The maps generally aren't built to support it, cyro is way worse in terms of LOS, but there are some areas. The most successful players in high tiers do that. Which is surreal experience, this game is a fantasy game and it plays like some battlefield, with people always looking for corners to hide before the fight even begins.

doabhi

the only people who don't agree with nerfing it are the same people abusing a design oversight imo.

It's a Game, everyone is supposed to be having fun.

Having to constantly play around/deal with design oversights from crunched developers relying too heavily on a PTS server and community feedback (gaslighting) instead of dedicated QA team is making ESO Not at all fun for people who aren't abusing said poorly balanced procs and having their quality of enjoyment Tarnished (Pun intended) By an ear shattering sound effect couple with some other Bs skill that one-shots you from the shadows.

Like Heavy Bow + Anthelmir's Constrict + Tarnished for example all while maintaining stealth?? No. this is broken af.

reazea

This one shot from stealth mechanic that ZOS keeps encouraging just sucks the fun and competition out of the game. The worst part is that the players crutching on their OP cloakblade think they're good players when they're just letting RoA and Tarninshed Nightmare play the game for them.