Don't understand why ithelia is a threat, google Jyggalag. Daedric princes don't like a userper

kirk_lewis_ESO · January 19

You know what happened to Jyggalag, why wouldn't you think the same would happen to Ithelia? You don't understand ESO lore if Ithelia confuses you.

Kalle_Demos · January 19

There are many unknowns in ES lore concerning the Princes. I think introducing Prince Ithelia is a fun an interesting way of exploring rarely ventured territory in the franchise.

OtarTheMad · January 19

Also, Trinimac was seen as one of the most powerful Aedra and they ganged up on him too. Twisted him, cursed him, imprisoned him and turned him into a weaker Daedra.

Erickson9610 · January 20

As seen during the Necrom storyline, some of the Daedric Princes were opposed to having the memory of Ithelia erased. I doubt they'd want to forget again.

kirk_lewis_ESO · January 20

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Also, Trinimac was seen as one of the most powerful Aedra and they ganged up on him too. Twisted him, cursed him, imprisoned him and turned him into a weaker Daedra.

Exactly, if you think about it, there are lots of parallels to Greek mythology. I have no idea why what happened to Ithelia confuses people so much. It's inline with established pathology of Daedric and Aedric gods.

Syldras · January 20

kirk_lewis_ESO wrote: »

Exactly, if you think about it, there are lots of parallels to Greek mythology. I have no idea why what happened to Ithelia confuses people so much. It's inline with established pathology of Daedric and Aedric gods.

That's a funny way to call it

And yes, real-world myths (and in general: cultures) are a huge source for TES lore. Not only Greek mythology.

TaSheen · January 20

Syldras wrote: »

kirk_lewis_ESO wrote: »

Exactly, if you think about it, there are lots of parallels to Greek mythology. I have no idea why what happened to Ithelia confuses people so much. It's inline with established pathology of Daedric and Aedric gods.

That's a funny way to call it

And yes, real-world myths (and in general: cultures) are a huge source for TES lore. Not only Greek mythology.

Maybe "pantheon" instead?

Syldras · January 20

TaSheen wrote: »

Maybe "pantheon" instead?

Either that or "mythology". I'm quite sure it's an autocorrect mistake. Not criticizing OP either, I just found the typo amusing.

TaSheen · January 20

Syldras wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Maybe "pantheon" instead?

Either that or "mythology". I'm quite sure it's an autocorrect mistake. Not criticizing OP either, I just found the typo amusing.

Ah. Yep, that works too....

Syldras · January 20

I know TES lore very well.

Ambiguousness is the whole nature of the Daedric Princes. Take Dagon as an example: He's not only the Prince of destruction, but also the Prince of change. Factually seen, every change is the destruction of what was before. Or think of Mephala: She is the Prince of lies, but also of stealth and tactical deception that might save your live in a dangerous situation.

Also, I think that applying mortal qualities or even morals to them doesn't make any sense. Yes, their choices might be limited, but that's not because of a mental disease, but because of their nature as daedra. They are no mortal people. See them like a force of nature. Is lightning evil for striking a house and burning it down? Is fire evil? That's again a case of ambiguity, by the way: Fire can burn you, but it's also warming you in the cold. Did you know that there are even plants that are only able to grow after a wildfire?

Btw, I also disagree with the idea that every bad behaviour was a result of a mental illness. Not every character flaw is an illness - with that argumentation, no one was accountable for whatever harmful things they do. No, sometimes it's just a character flaw, like greed, selfishness or anger, flaws unfortunately more than common with many (officially completely ordinary and healthy) human beings.

OtarTheMad · January 20

The way I have also seen the Daedric Princes, and I could be wrong on this… wouldn’t be shocking even slightly but I’ve seen them as kind of robotic. What I mean is they decide what they want to do-they make a plan on how to do it-they execute said plan in the most efficient way they think possible given the paths they usually take (which is how they earned their titles). They don’t know what good is, or bad is but can see certain other Princes or Beings as a threat to them. That’s why Jyggalag was changed, why Ithelia was erased from memory and why I think Trinimac was twisted, imprisoned and cursed to become Malacath. I wouldn’t be all that surprised if something happened to Talos down the road. Think of it as they see the powerful being as a virus (PC or human) and they need to cleanse it.

Examples I can give to what I mean is Supernatural TV show, the episodes where Sam was soulless or iRobot movie (sort of). They just executed the plan, they don’t avoid human casualties but they also don’t swerve into them. In Skyrim, when Hermaeus Mora killed that Skaal Shaman to learn the secrets of the Skaal, that was just the easiest path he knew to gain the knowledge. He is the Prince of Knowledge after all. Princes act certain ways because that’s how they are programmed. If getting you to help them gets them to their goal then they’ll seek you, if ending you get them to it they’ll do that. They’ll even betray other Princes because they most likely got what they wanted and don’t need them anymore.

I do think Princes can get angry but not in a human way, the efficient path they drew up got disturbed and so now they must recalculate which of course delays their goal. I do not know if this is making sense to others but in my brain I am spot on lol.

Syldras · January 20

They are not ill. Illness is defined as "a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms".

Strictly seen, according to this definion, a Daedric Prince would be ill (if that would be possible, which I doubt because they are no real physical living beings) if they're not acting to their nature.

So Dagon would not be ill if he wants to destroy the world, but if he would suddenly insist in preserving and protecting it.

Syldras · January 20

It's just not possible to apply human behaviour and morals to beings that are non-human, not even mortal. They're not the same, they don't have the same ethics, ways of thinking, ways of functioning. They only (mostly) manifest as humanoid-looking to mortal eyes, but that doesn't mean there's any real similarity.

I mean, we don't apply human morals to animals either, do we? In animals, there are many behaviours that would be totally unacceptable and immoral when it comes to humans, yet they are the nature of these animals. Female praying mantisses eat their males after mating. Are these animals evil? Immoral? Ill?

Nihilr · January 20

Syldras wrote: »

It's just not possible to apply human behaviour and morals to beings that are non-human, not even mortal. They're not the same, they don't have the same ethics, ways of thinking, ways of functioning. They only (mostly) manifest as humanoid-looking to mortal eyes, but that doesn't mean there's any real similarity.

I mean, we don't apply human morals to animals either, do we? In animals, there are many behaviours that would be totally unacceptable and immoral when it comes to humans, yet they are the nature of these animals. Female praying mantisses eat their males after mating. Are these animals evil? Immoral? Ill?

Daedra are personification of mankind's worst traits.

Daedra have the "intellect" level of humans, whereas animals in our world do not. Most animals hunt for survival, not for sport. Yes I know about Orcas and Primates that are the exception. But they are exactly that, the exception. I would not put Daedra under the animal category. They have more self awareness and pride than most humans, even.

ZOS_Hadeostry · January 20

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's lore related.

Thank you for your understanding

Syldras · January 20

Nihilr wrote: »

Daedra are personification of mankind's worst traits.

Exactly, they are the embodiment of a concept, basically an allegory. That means they can't change and can't question that. The embodiment of cruelty cannot stop being cruel because then it wouldn't be the embodiment of cruelty anymore. How can an allegory of a harmful concept be ill?

Auroan · January 20

Answering OP's question, Ithelia would be considered a larger threat then Jyggalag because Jyggalag has checks and balances. He's the Daedric Prince of Order and Deduction. As long as everything falls within logical order and deduction, Jyggalag isn't a threat. He's a "neutral" Daedric Prince that keeps balance. This is why Jyggalag is a counter to Ithelia, but not a greater threat. Ithelia's very nature is to disrupt logical order and deduction by trying to manipulate and change it. Jyggalag steps in and says, "no". Ithelia can't do anything. But when the Daedric Princes, in their nature, turned on Jyggalag, what did they do? They didn't kill him (because you can't), but they cursed him to be the opposite of what he was, which gave birth to Sheogorath. But how could Jyggalag let something like that happen? Because it's logical and balanced. Jyggalag is now Yin and Yang, Order and Chaos, and switches between the two every 1,000 years (if memory serves me right). Therefore, Jyggalag, in his nature of Order, couldn't stop it, because it was within the rules of logic and balance to have Yin and Yang, which he's now become (and potentially always has been, but is now doing it in a "different" way).

With Jyggalag gone though, there are no checks and balances to keep Ithelia at bay. However, Ithelia doesn't have the power that Jyggalag has, and as we know, there's always a way to stop an individual outside of simply killing them. This is what I like about Daedric Princes and their stories, because in most stories in games, the objective to stop an opposing force is quite simple; you just kill it. That doesn't apply to Daedric Princes and ES lore. For Daedric Princes and ES lore, it's much more creative and complicated and typically has something to with manipulating the nature of said being in order to "defeat" it.

But yeah, personal opinion, everything surrounding Ithelia is basically just FanFic. The year long story idea they had seemed great at first, but started falling flat on its face and received bad reception from their players for various reasons, forcing them away from the year long model and into what we have now. The last piece of content, and arguably their best before they started the year long stuff, was Summerset Isles. As far as lore, nothing topped what was at stake in that story, and with Necrom/Ithelia, they're basically trying to repeat that formula.

Ithelia was a way for them to try and introduce something new and large stake to top Summerset Isle, cause how do you top having infinite power in all realms and realities? By manipulating fate/reality itself. You have to imagine the conversation they had at ZOS HQ.

"Let's introduce a new Daedric Prince!"
"[snip], how would we do that in the already established lore where this Deadric Prince clearly doesn't exist?"
"No, no, no, it's not that this Daedric Prince never existed...it's just that EVERYONE FORGOT THEY EXISTED!"
"Genius!"

And what'd they do? They gave Ithelia the same treatment they gave Jyggalag. That's literally what was going through my mind when playing Necrom. This is just copy pasta of Jyggalag lore. The experience was fun though, I enjoyed coming back to ESO and playing through the content, can't lie there. But this is all just copy pasta from Jyggalag. Fitting though.

[edited for profanity bypass]

ZOS_Icy · January 22

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth in addition to some off-topic posts from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Syldras · January 23

I'm not sure if the discussion is still comprehensible for people who haven't seen it before its current state (with over half of all comments deleted), but in case someone remembers what it was about - this is actually an interesting point:

OtarTheMad wrote: »

The way I have also seen the Daedric Princes, and I could be wrong on this… wouldn’t be shocking even slightly but I’ve seen them as kind of robotic. What I mean is they decide what they want to do-they make a plan on how to do it-they execute said plan in the most efficient way they think possible given the paths they usually take (which is how they earned their titles). They don’t know what good is, or bad is but can see certain other Princes or Beings as a threat to them.

They're not really robotic, as they're not artificial constructs. They are a part of nature, like gravity, fire, the weather, the laws of physics, and all these things. They don't even have a true physical form, they are basically something like energy - that can take a form that looks like a living being, but still they're not.

But this is the point where a comparison to a robot could actually make sense when it comes to the question whether their behaviour could be called evil or ill or if they could somehow be hold accountable for it. Imagine a robot that is designed to look like a human, talk like one, act like one. From the outside, it's completely undistinguishable from a human. But it's no living being, can't make its own free decisions, it acts and "thinks" the way it was programmed. If that robot now harms humans, would we say it was ill, evil or immoral? No, we wouldn't, because it's no living being. The same would logically apply to the Daedric Princes; they may look humanoid, act like humanoids if we look at it as a spectator, they may actually plan things and make tactical decisions, but only according to their programming. They may appear to us like a living, breathing, human being with a character and temper, with emotions - but that's nothing more than an illusion.

AllenaNightWood · January 23

nothing worse then a prince running around not knowing its a prince and figuring out shes got all this power

Thevampirenight · January 23

So Ithelia's powers are she can rewrite the threads of fate, fate is like a fickle thing an important concept in TES reality right up there with time. Time and Fate are intertwined, reality can like survive when there is a dragonbreak, but what ESO made very clear is that Fatebreaking or lets call them Morabreaks will destroy all reality. you shatter fate reality ends. Or it ends from when the fatebreak happens. Fate is like all the pathways of all outcomes that will happen present and future. Its tied to the Elder Scrolls its basically its own living thing. That Mora personally safeguards. Mora's realm is interwined with the threads of fate, and thus the destruction of the realm would end reality basically. as it would basically cause a lot of ruin. Ithelia's domain gives her the potential to cause a fatebreak. End reality by one simple mistake if she messed up with the ability and Mora foresaw that outcome. So its not about a usuper or anything or out of jealously its about like preventing fate itself from breaking at all costs. Because it would end reality end the dream. Destroy the Elder scrolls I think. It would do all of that.

kirk_lewis_ESO · January 23

Auroan wrote: »

Answering OP's question, Ithelia would be considered a larger threat then Jyggalag because Jyggalag has checks and balances. He's the Daedric Prince of Order and Deduction. As long as everything falls within logical order and deduction, Jyggalag isn't a threat. He's a "neutral" Daedric Prince that keeps balance. This is why Jyggalag is a counter to Ithelia, but not a greater threat. Ithelia's very nature is to disrupt logical order and deduction by trying to manipulate and change it. Jyggalag steps in and says, "no". Ithelia can't do anything. But when the Daedric Princes, in their nature, turned on Jyggalag, what did they do? They didn't kill him (because you can't), but they cursed him to be the opposite of what he was, which gave birth to Sheogorath. But how could Jyggalag let something like that happen? Because it's logical and balanced. Jyggalag is now Yin and Yang, Order and Chaos, and switches between the two every 1,000 years (if memory serves me right). Therefore, Jyggalag, in his nature of Order, couldn't stop it, because it was within the rules of logic and balance to have Yin and Yang, which he's now become (and potentially always has been, but is now doing it in a "different" way).

With Jyggalag gone though, there are no checks and balances to keep Ithelia at bay. However, Ithelia doesn't have the power that Jyggalag has, and as we know, there's always a way to stop an individual outside of simply killing them. This is what I like about Daedric Princes and their stories, because in most stories in games, the objective to stop an opposing force is quite simple; you just kill it. That doesn't apply to Daedric Princes and ES lore. For Daedric Princes and ES lore, it's much more creative and complicated and typically has something to with manipulating the nature of said being in order to "defeat" it.

But yeah, personal opinion, everything surrounding Ithelia is basically just FanFic. The year long story idea they had seemed great at first, but started falling flat on its face and received bad reception from their players for various reasons, forcing them away from the year long model and into what we have now. The last piece of content, and arguably their best before they started the year long stuff, was Summerset Isles. As far as lore, nothing topped what was at stake in that story, and with Necrom/Ithelia, they're basically trying to repeat that formula.

Ithelia was a way for them to try and introduce something new and large stake to top Summerset Isle, cause how do you top having infinite power in all realms and realities? By manipulating fate/reality itself. You have to imagine the conversation they had at ZOS HQ.

"Let's introduce a new Daedric Prince!"
"[snip], how would we do that in the already established lore where this Deadric Prince clearly doesn't exist?"
"No, no, no, it's not that this Daedric Prince never existed...it's just that EVERYONE FORGOT THEY EXISTED!"
"Genius!"

And what'd they do? They gave Ithelia the same treatment they gave Jyggalag. That's literally what was going through my mind when playing Necrom. This is just copy pasta of Jyggalag lore. The experience was fun though, I enjoyed coming back to ESO and playing through the content, can't lie there. But this is all just copy pasta from Jyggalag. Fitting though.

[edited for profanity bypass]

This is not entirely true. Remember, they turned jyggalag into sheogorath. You know why, jyggalag was order yes, but he was a master strategist. They feared he was the one prince that could conquer them all. They fear ithelia for the same reason, if I can control fate, I can do whatever I want to you including conquer you.

barbe.amauryb16_ESO · January 29

[snip] The story of Necrom wasn't bad but the big reveal, the forbidden secret was so forced and disappointing. All this for that? Really? The prince of untravelled path? It stepped on Hermaus sphere so much...

[edited for bashing]

tuxon · June 15

This all reminds me of Shadowlands WoW expansion. Someone thought that they could invent "new lore" but the reality is that TES has already a massive lore to build a story.

Stop Inventing "New Lore"

Ithelia < Jyggalag

Pretty much summons everything. This chapter should have been about Jyggalag.

When I saw Blind Cultists and that other "glass shard" looking style of Ithelia minions I immediately thought about old Sheo. It looks exactly as Jyggalag's style would look like.

ArchMikem · June 20

What I'm failing to fully see is why the "Prince of Paths", who's domain was basically an overpowered Doctor Strange where she could see all possible Realities and also change them, but also somehow be able to completely collapse and cease all of Existence as well. If she had the ability to alter Realities why would she also be able to completely destroy Reality, which includes herself. I haven't completed Gold Road yet but so far it's told me Nirn's Reality is stupidly fragile, like Glass.

Like the Outcast Inn Quest. Ithelia was having trouble containing her power as it returned to her, and because of that it was pulling some hocus pocus that Laramil claimed, if left unchecked would eventually just unravel the entirety of Reality and Zero Summing the Mundus?

Like if the Vestige hadn't have been there at that specific time that would've just been it, the end of everything. No more Elder Scrolls.

I just don't see why you'd give a Daedric Prince THAT kind of power. Not only does it make the world all the more meaningless since everything ever could be easily erased from being by a single Woman getting angry enough, but it also makes the Prince a tragic character, cause it doesn't matter if the character has good intention or a responsible mentality, THAT much power will ALWAYS be a threat to everyone and paint a target on your back, hence why Ithelia claims in every single Timeline she looks into it's the same, Herma Mora and Company coming after her.

And all because she used her power to stop a Disaster from happening. She used her power for the betterment of Mortals, and Mora was all "You wut mate?!"

OtarTheMad · June 21

tuxon wrote: »

This all reminds me of Shadowlands WoW expansion. Someone thought that they could invent "new lore" but the reality is that TES has already a massive lore to build a story.

Stop Inventing "New Lore"

Ithelia < Jyggalag

Pretty much summons everything. This chapter should have been about Jyggalag.

When I saw Blind Cultists and that other "glass shard" looking style of Ithelia minions I immediately thought about old Sheo. It looks exactly as Jyggalag's style would look like.

While I don’t disagree with you I will say the problem with making this chapter about Jyggalag or maybe any chapter is that he is only “allowed” to come back at the end of eras during the Greymarch. We are in the middle of the era, sort of, so without getting super creative and hoping Bethesda says yes… it had to be a new Prince.

Now, with that being said you could do a chapter or could have centered this one around Sheogorath actually asking for help, with all the Disorder and chaos going on and Peryite not stepping in Jyggalag is getting antsy and trying to push through.

Thats just an example but the other big mountain to climb is getting Bethesda to sign off, ZOS said Bethesda helped a lot with Ithelia and her story and lore… who knows what she started out as… might have been Jyggalag but Bethesda said no… probably never know.