Game needs Anti-Cheat

Jamie_Aubrey · June 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Bucky_13 wrote: »

As for the ress thing, I can often ress other players with my NB inside a keep filled with enemy players without getting detected, they can then wait around a minute to ress, which will look very suspicious but isn't something I'd call an exploit since they were ressed by another player.

That's a good point; a player who's rezzed by another player can wait before accepting the rez, and accepting the rez well after the fact might look like someone rezzing themselves. Is there a time limit on how long you can wait before accepting a rez?

As for whispering afterward, if someone whispered the "self-rezzing" player to accuse them of using a hack to self-rez, if the accused player were to whisper back something like "LOL, yeah, I can rez myself," that could be sarcasm, like if someone were to-- in all sincerity-- accuse you IRL of being able to fly like a bird and you replied, "Haha! Yep, I can fly like a bird!" (Rolls eyes.) Taken literally and without noticing the eye-roll, it could sound like an admission, rather than like sarcasm. I'm not saying that was the case here, since I wasn't there and haven't seen a video or chat log of what happened. I'm just sayin'.

About 60 seconds

FantasticFreddie · June 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Bucky_13 wrote: »

As for the ress thing, I can often ress other players with my NB inside a keep filled with enemy players without getting detected, they can then wait around a minute to ress, which will look very suspicious but isn't something I'd call an exploit since they were ressed by another player.

That's a good point; a player who's rezzed by another player can wait before accepting the rez, and accepting the rez well after the fact might look like someone rezzing themselves. Is there a time limit on how long you can wait before accepting a rez?

As for whispering afterward, if someone whispered the "self-rezzing" player to accuse them of using a hack to self-rez, if the accused player were to whisper back something like "LOL, yeah, I can rez myself," that could be sarcasm, like if someone were to-- in all sincerity-- accuse you IRL of being able to fly like a bird and you replied, "Haha! Yep, I can fly like a bird!" (Rolls eyes.) Taken literally and without noticing the eye-roll, it could sound like an admission, rather than like sarcasm. I'm not saying that was the case here, since I wasn't there and haven't seen a video or chat log of what happened. I'm just sayin'.

There's an extremely long timer. More than 5 minutes.

Bucky_13 · June 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Bucky_13 wrote: »

As for the ress thing, I can often ress other players with my NB inside a keep filled with enemy players without getting detected, they can then wait around a minute to ress, which will look very suspicious but isn't something I'd call an exploit since they were ressed by another player.

That's a good point; a player who's rezzed by another player can wait before accepting the rez, and accepting the rez well after the fact might look like someone rezzing themselves. Is there a time limit on how long you can wait before accepting a rez?

As for whispering afterward, if someone whispered the "self-rezzing" player to accuse them of using a hack to self-rez, if the accused player were to whisper back something like "LOL, yeah, I can rez myself," that could be sarcasm, like if someone were to-- in all sincerity-- accuse you IRL of being able to fly like a bird and you replied, "Haha! Yep, I can fly like a bird!" (Rolls eyes.) Taken literally and without noticing the eye-roll, it could sound like an admission, rather than like sarcasm. I'm not saying that was the case here, since I wasn't there and haven't seen a video or chat log of what happened. I'm just sayin'.

I think it's one minute, but not 100% sure. I do wait on ressing sometimes if there's fighting going on atop my corpse.
As for sarcastically saying something like "Ofc I cheated", it's something I would probably do myself since I do enjoy riling up enemy players who are salty and accuse players of cheating. The amount of times I see someone accuse enemy players of cheating when they're not is quite high.

Vrienda · June 2023

I'd rather not take a performance hit, existing anti-cheat is enough.

Lumsdenml · June 2023

tincanman wrote: »

.

Vulkunne wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

Most of the calcs are server based now.

There are also a variety of automatic cheat detections in operation, one of which blew up spectacularly in the past and mistakenly banned a bunch of traders as gold sellers.

There's also a bunch of glitches and edge cases in game - for example if <50th lvl and you gain a level at the same time as killed (pvp), you will auto-revive on the spot with full resources.

If you really are sure you see someone cheating - and I mean really sure and not just ticked off because your ping failed or you got outplayed - then report it.

Anything else is overkill.

The rez when reaching a level has been around for very long time. I thought it was iworking as intended lol. After all, you can't level if yur dead.

Yes, as stated, it's an 'edge case' - the probability of you levelling mid-combat/post-death[pvp] is, I imagine, pretty low(I've heard of it only a handful of times).

But some posters here would see that 'feature' during play and assume the rezzed-via-levelling player as some sort of cheat and possibly report an entirely innocent player for something pretty much beyond their control.

It's the point of mentioning such edge cases and glitches etc - to illustrate that there are perfectly innocent players (and situations) who or which may be miscalled or falsely reported for simply playing the game honestly.

I'm not sure how often this happens, but it's happened to me 3 times, and to someone in my group that I was a part of once, so that's 4 times I've had 1st hand account. I do know, though, that I actively look to do it. If I'm close to leveling, I'm not rezing until I'm sure there will be no more ticks.

Necrotech_Master · June 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Bucky_13 wrote: »

As for the ress thing, I can often ress other players with my NB inside a keep filled with enemy players without getting detected, they can then wait around a minute to ress, which will look very suspicious but isn't something I'd call an exploit since they were ressed by another player.

That's a good point; a player who's rezzed by another player can wait before accepting the rez, and accepting the rez well after the fact might look like someone rezzing themselves. Is there a time limit on how long you can wait before accepting a rez?

As for whispering afterward, if someone whispered the "self-rezzing" player to accuse them of using a hack to self-rez, if the accused player were to whisper back something like "LOL, yeah, I can rez myself," that could be sarcasm, like if someone were to-- in all sincerity-- accuse you IRL of being able to fly like a bird and you replied, "Haha! Yep, I can fly like a bird!" (Rolls eyes.) Taken literally and without noticing the eye-roll, it could sound like an admission, rather than like sarcasm. I'm not saying that was the case here, since I wasn't there and haven't seen a video or chat log of what happened. I'm just sayin'.

when another player rezzes you there is a little circle timer (same type of one when a group disbands at the end of a group dungeon), i dont know the exact timer but its probably around 2 minutes

when this timer runs out it does the same thing as if the player declined to rez, effectively nothing

zaria · June 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Bucky_13 wrote: »

As for the ress thing, I can often ress other players with my NB inside a keep filled with enemy players without getting detected, they can then wait around a minute to ress, which will look very suspicious but isn't something I'd call an exploit since they were ressed by another player.

That's a good point; a player who's rezzed by another player can wait before accepting the rez, and accepting the rez well after the fact might look like someone rezzing themselves. Is there a time limit on how long you can wait before accepting a rez?

As for whispering afterward, if someone whispered the "self-rezzing" player to accuse them of using a hack to self-rez, if the accused player were to whisper back something like "LOL, yeah, I can rez myself," that could be sarcasm, like if someone were to-- in all sincerity-- accuse you IRL of being able to fly like a bird and you replied, "Haha! Yep, I can fly like a bird!" (Rolls eyes.) Taken literally and without noticing the eye-roll, it could sound like an admission, rather than like sarcasm. I'm not saying that was the case here, since I wasn't there and haven't seen a video or chat log of what happened. I'm just sayin'.

when another player rezzes you there is a little circle timer (same type of one when a group disbands at the end of a group dungeon), i dont know the exact timer but its probably around 2 minutes

when this timer runs out it does the same thing as if the player declined to rez, effectively nothing

Yes but it well enough time to beaten the enemy out of the keep and now you are chasing them off the outer wall and repairing. So you wait and rez, you tell group on discord that you will rez them once stuff calm down and you do and then you break down the inner wall and take the keep after people moved on.

YandereGirlfriend · June 2023

Anti-cheat is got us the sketchy performance in Cyrodiil.

Would gladly reverse the trade.

React · June 2023

JerBearESO wrote: »

Played a BGs recently where someone couldn't die...at 0 HP. We kept them at 0 consistently but they wouldn't drop. At one point they just stood there like "yeah what" lol.

I guess the patch worked some exploitable insecurities in....

When someone is severely health desync'd, they can appear like they're at 0 HP when in reality they're at 50%+. There is an arcanist ability or passive interaction that instantly desyncs their own HP, as well.

NoxPerpetuo · June 2023

React wrote: »

The other one I see is "you hit me with 10 abilities in one second, you're macroing/hacking!". I did actually get one of these players to explain to me what those 10 "abilities" were by showing me his CMX. Turned out those were 2 damage instances from a DW heavy, 2 damage instances from rending slashes, hemorrhaging, absorb stam glyph, sundered status proc, poison glyph, poisoned status proc, and a bash.

Agree, except, I DO have questions about death recaps that show I died from two or three concurrent ultimate abilities from the same player, who attacked and killed me gank-style within five or less seconds. That happens regularly enough, I have questions about that one.

It doesn’t seem plausible, since ultimate completely depletes for most skills when fired, and needs to be replenished, which usually doesn’t happen that fast.

Then again, maybe I am missing something about the mechs there. It seems like it shouldn’t be possible to instantly recharge to full ultimate within the space of a few seconds, though.

Xandreia_ · June 2023

NoxPerpetuo wrote: »

React wrote: »

The other one I see is "you hit me with 10 abilities in one second, you're macroing/hacking!". I did actually get one of these players to explain to me what those 10 "abilities" were by showing me his CMX. Turned out those were 2 damage instances from a DW heavy, 2 damage instances from rending slashes, hemorrhaging, absorb stam glyph, sundered status proc, poison glyph, poisoned status proc, and a bash.

Agree, except, I DO have questions about death recaps that show I died from two or three concurrent ultimate abilities from the same player, who attacked and killed me gank-style within five or less seconds. That happens regularly enough, I have questions about that one.

It doesn’t seem plausible, since ultimate completely depletes for most skills when fired, and needs to be replenished, which usually doesn’t happen that fast.

Then again, maybe I am missing something about the mechs there. It seems like it shouldn’t be possible to instantly recharge to full ultimate within the space of a few seconds, though.

There is a gank setup that gives you a double incap, they are most likely using that.

Khrogo · June 2023

As long as it doesn’t affect performance or being able to play the game on a Steam Deck. But it probably would.

Jammy420 · June 2023

Bucky_13 wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Rezzing yourself in Cyrodiil seems to depend on how you died. For instance, I know that if you die from fall damage then you can rez yourself, although I don't know if your location (such as inside a keep) can override that. I assume this is overridden if you've taken any recent PvP-related damage, but I don't know if taking damage from NPCs counts.

Going through keep walls seems to be a bug related to gap closers.

In short, I don't think those two things are necessarily evidence of using any cheat programs, but that's not to say that people might not be using exploits.

I only know about the self-rez after fall damage because I accidentally rode my mount off a tall ledge in the no-CP campaign while trying to ride from Chorrol to Vlastarus on a map where my faction didn't have squat, and the lack of the CP perk that reduces fall damage was surprisingly painful.

On the other hand, IIRC dying in the lava around Chorrol will send you back to a wayshrine at your faction's base, which makes sense given that self-rezzing in a lava fissure that you can't climb out of wouldn't be very nice.

I have gotten people banned for doing that, and it was an option in cheat engine when I reported it way back, and there is a difference obviously between falling to your death, and rezzing mid battle after you died to multiple players. As for the keeps, I am talking about players who were outside the keep, then logged out, and then somehow logged back in and were in there. I have also seen people run around behind the gates of the scroll area, and they picked up the scroll while gates were closed, ignoring the instant death mechanic. As for the walls, there were no players around to gap close to, they went up and over the walls with a button click.

It is well documented there is loads of cheating in this game.

You can res people through walls

You cant rez someone at the top of a tower inside the keep while no one is there. I Was standing on top of them, so dont try to justify this. They even whispered me after to laugh at me proving they could do it. So seriously, do not treat me like some person that doesnt understand the game. Its insulting.

If you stand on top of one of the towers on the outer walls of the keep on top of a dead player, another player can ress them from underneath through the floor/roof, most likely in a spot where you can't see them. This doesn't require any cheats, it's just how the game works. Not saying that particular player didn't cheat since I wasn't there, just saying this is possible within the game as it's coded.

I was standing on top of them in this instance, in other instances they would simply spawn inside the keep, in other instances there were multiple people checking and reported it, so there was no ne below rezzing them. It's so obvious some people weren't around during the most wide spread use of cheat engine, or the infinite comets, or the self Rez plague. So so obvious.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Bucky_13 wrote: »

As for the ress thing, I can often ress other players with my NB inside a keep filled with enemy players without getting detected, they can then wait around a minute to ress, which will look very suspicious but isn't something I'd call an exploit since they were ressed by another player.

That's a good point; a player who's rezzed by another player can wait before accepting the rez, and accepting the rez well after the fact might look like someone rezzing themselves. Is there a time limit on how long you can wait before accepting a rez?

As for whispering afterward, if someone whispered the "self-rezzing" player to accuse them of using a hack to self-rez, if the accused player were to whisper back something like "LOL, yeah, I can rez myself," that could be sarcasm, like if someone were to-- in all sincerity-- accuse you IRL of being able to fly like a bird and you replied, "Haha! Yep, I can fly like a bird!" (Rolls eyes.) Taken literally and without noticing the eye-roll, it could sound like an admission, rather than like sarcasm. I'm not saying that was the case here, since I wasn't there and haven't seen a video or chat log of what happened. I'm just sayin'.

The cheater apologetics are real.

I really wish I could pload the videos here, but last time I did that I got reported for naming and shaming

ADarklore · June 2023

I think the only way they could add a proper anti-cheat would be to close all the avenues that allow us to have addons. In that respect, I'd much rather have the very rare cheaters than everyone on PC lose addons.

Jammy420 · June 2023

ADarklore wrote: »

I think the only way they could add a proper anti-cheat would be to close all the avenues that allow us to have addons. In that respect, I'd much rather have the very rare cheaters than everyone on PC lose addons.

Id rather have them put more server side checks again. There is a difference between API being used to create things like the add-ons that told you when to dodge when attacks from stealth, and cheat engine. It really blows my mind how few even know about it. Do a quick search on youtofor ESO cheat engine.

Necrotech_Master · June 2023

Jammy420 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

I think the only way they could add a proper anti-cheat would be to close all the avenues that allow us to have addons. In that respect, I'd much rather have the very rare cheaters than everyone on PC lose addons.

Id rather have them put more server side checks again. There is a difference between API being used to create things like the add-ons that told you when to dodge when attacks from stealth, and cheat engine. It really blows my mind how few even know about it. Do a quick search on youtofor ESO cheat engine.

80% of the game is already running server side, thats why cyro lags so bad because the servers are doing all of the calculations

the only thing running client side would be basically inputs we are doing and the information the game sends to us to use for UI

Alchimiste1 · June 2023

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

N3CR01 wrote: »

Lebkuchen wrote: »

Is this really a thing? "in the other thread" is not very helpful...

I doubt it.
They moved stuff like health and resources to their end years ago as peoples were using third party programs to give themselves higher health pools or whatever.

Without a dedicated cheat detector this can easily be circumvented by someone who really wants to. I have seen people rez themselves lately, Spawn inside enemy keeps without it being UA prior, and I have seen players once again go through walls.

There is (was?) an incredibly rare bug where you're allowed to rez yourself even while in combat with players/guards. Years ago it happened to Fengrush on one of his streams, it happened to me once, and it happened to a friend in group once. AFAIK what triggers it naturally is still largely unknown.

If it's the self res bug you are talking about from 2 years ago, it didn't require any sort of cheat engine or third-party software. It was easily doable with base game mechanics if you knew how.

Rarely have I ever, in 8+ years, actually ran into someone that utilized some 3rd party software to cheat in this game. I'd argue that cheating through the use of any third-party software is almost nonexistent in this game (it was more seen in its early years). That being said almost every new patch something breaks and people sometimes find ways to exploit bugs and get to locations they shouldn't or things alike.

In a pvp environment there are many people who are just very good at managing their resources and have strong builds that might make it seem like they have infinite resources.

JonnytheKing · June 1

Dren_Utogi wrote: »

Game needs anti-cheat application, As posted in the other thread, the script people are using is giving them endless stamina and mana and endless shield rotation.

scripts will not do this, scripts can not by pass game limitations

Varana · June 1

Thread Necromancy is a CRIMINAL ACT.

TechMaybeHic · June 1

I've seen a few things. There definitely was a thing where players could drop below the surface and not be targetable. That and players suddenly in a different location without shadow image or psijic ult; but a lot of that and other things here can be attributed to desync.

But I have seen a few over the years. Players jumping from the bottom of a hill to the top and gently landing. Or I have seen a guy playing a NB, try to gank, and if it's going to fail, just fall over dead. Then proceed to revive into the blue glowy, invulnerable in front if everyone and run off to cloak and repeat.

Really; with this game, a lot can be explained by bad code and performance. But people doing it at will when it's obviously not by design is still an exploit and also should be actioned

Desiato · June 1

JonnytheKing wrote: »

Dren_Utogi wrote: »

Game needs anti-cheat application, As posted in the other thread, the script people are using is giving them endless stamina and mana and endless shield rotation.

scripts will not do this, scripts can not by pass game limitations

Script is a generic term. In one context, automation apps use scripts that provide input instructions. In another context, a script can be used to provide instructions to cheat app about which areas of client memory to read and manipulate.

Oznog666 · June 1

Varana wrote: »

Thread Necromancy is a CRIMINAL ACT.

This!!!!
Guards, go get them criminals

Amottica · June 1

\

JonnytheKing wrote: »

Dren_Utogi wrote: »

Game needs anti-cheat application, As posted in the other thread, the script people are using is giving them endless stamina and mana and endless shield rotation.

scripts will not do this, scripts can not by pass game limitations

Pretty much everything that needed to be explained was mentioned in this thread a year ago. It is why it died as there was nothing more to say.

chaz · June 1

Question, why do you folks still believe ZOS implemented a " Perfect " anti cheat system when, you all know not all programs will be detected , by an algorithm?

You know for a fact cheats exist in game. I'm tired of people using canned Macros to one shot kill people in half a second. Popping off all their abilities all at a single burst.

And, how about cheaters running around with resource Bots? I still see a lot of farm accounts being followed by 6 or more bots picking up resources in game.

If these are not proof enough for you, then I only suggest stop gaslighting folks trying to tell zos there is a problem, and asking how they can fix it.

Amottica · June 1

chaz wrote: »

Question, why do you folks still believe ZOS implemented a " Perfect " anti cheat system when, you all know not all programs will be detected , by an algorithm?

You know for a fact cheats exist in game. I'm tired of people using canned Macros to one shot kill people in half a second. Popping off all their abilities all at a single burst.

And, how about cheaters running around with resource Bots? I still see a lot of farm accounts being followed by 6 or more bots picking up resources in game.

If these are not proof enough for you, then I only suggest stop gaslighting folks trying to tell zos there is a problem, and asking how they can fix it
.

@chaz

There is not a perfect anti-cheat system—there will never be one. I'm not sure what the argument is, as many of us have merely pointed out that Zenimax has done work and continues to do work to combat cheating. It is a constant whack-a-mole process, which should not come as a surprise to anyone who has played various MMORPGs.

Oh, and this is not to say Zenimax is doing enough or could do better. They could always do better, but our thoughts on it merely come down to opinion, as we do not and never will know the extent to what they do and at what point the extra effort stops yielding worthwhile results.

Sakiri · June 1

I'm gonna say no.

Because anti cheat would literally cause me to need to quit.

Games with anti cheat tend to not work on Linux, and I'm playing on Linux, and I'd rather like to continue to be able to.

Thanks.

Amottica · June 1

Desiato wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Oh, and this is not to say Zenimax is doing enough or could do better. They could always do better, but our thoughts on it merely come down to opinion, as we do not and never will know the extent to what they do and at what point the extra effort stops yielding worthwhile results.

[snip]

My entire post addresses the bigger picture vs just the last paragraph which is all that was quoted and replied to.

Kernal-mode anti-cheat is fairly generic. Not all Kernal mode designs work the same way. Some have full access to the entire PC, such as what Vanguard, used by LOL, is reported to have. That is unnecessary and opens real concerns about privacy and more. No one needs unrestricted access to my entire PC.

Even without that, there is likely a reason why the only games I can find that use kernel-mode anti-cheat have a simplistic design compared to the major MMORPG titles such as ESO. Fortnite and PUBG are far from what we have in ESO.

Granted, I am not an expert—none of us here are—but this is information I am aware of. If it were this simple and not cause issues then it would likely already be in use with major MMORPGs such as ESO.

[edited to remove quote]

OtarTheMad · June 1

As someone else said, 80% of the game runs server side, or at least a lot of it does. The anti cheat they have plus that is what sent Cyrodiil into a lag spiral in the first place.

Someone is always going to figure out how to bypass things, it’ll get patched and rinse repeat.

cyclonus11 · June 2

We need actual GMs in the game.

darvaria · June 2

I know at one time some players were using that Cheat Engine to do that but I'm pretty sure ZOS has that under control now. I haven't really seen anyone in a long time that I thought was doing that. I do think some players use something akin to a lag switch or ddos at cyro ... sometimes.

I've seen 2 players advertising what I'm pretty sure are RWT cheaper crowns. I am very against this and report anyone that does it. With the safe guards in place now, I think it's harder. I've reported two in the last 2 weeks for it. At one time I got so mad I mouthed off so much about those crown cheaters I got a a few days ban on the forums. I do think ZOS has this under control. Those scum almost ruined crowns for us. But I'm pretty sure it's cleared up.

If anyone sees "Crowns for sale cheap" REPORT immediately. Report if anyone is selling in game runs, titles, gear or anything .... just in case they are RWT. They will try to get you on discords and then get you to Pay Pal them. All of my Pay Pal dollars go to ZOS. The only one deserving of them because they pay the people that make the game for us. DO NOT SUPPORT any form of RWT please. This is the only real cheating I think is in game and it is mostly under control now.