Blood Magic passive rework necessitates Hardened Ward rework

StaticWave · April 16

@Jsmalls @Turtle_Bot
I changed the title.

They could take away HP Sorc too. One of my suggestions was making Blood Magic scale off offensive stats instead to promote high damage builds. However, they went the other route with this buff. Fine by me.

As of now I don’t see a reason to go lower than 40k HP on stamsorc though. It’s the same issue with stamden in general. It’s cool to gain that extra 8k-9k stam, which is equivalent to about 750-850 weapon dmg or so. However, the benefit of a high HP pool simply outweighs the lower damage output. In BG and solo PvP, I still have plenty of kill potential and I’m surviving better. I die less to gankers and ult bombs. Not saying I don’t want high HP builds to be nerfed, but I’m just saying with the state of the game rn it’s a throw for me to go lower than 40k HP.

StaticWave · April 16

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Gonna have to agree. Blood Magic change is fantastic, but Hardened Ward's heal is too bursty in addition with the changes on high max mag stacking builds because they can sustain the 4.5k cost of it practically infinitely. However removing it entirely seems heavy handed.

Viable Max HP stacking builds using Ward, but not building as a troll tank (eg. 40k HP) have a harder time sustaining the high mag cost, while also having a lower tooltip. It seems more balanced on this end vs max mag stacking builds, but still too strong with Blood Magic changes accounted for.

I think the obvious fix is to change Wards heal into a hot, but I'd like to add that I don't think it should scale with resources, HP, or suggestions like damage at all. Imo it should be a flat value the same way Dark Conversion and Critical Surge are, this would eliminate the extremes between being negligible to completely overpowered.

Eg something like:
- Hardened = 10k over 3s (2.5k/s)
- Empowered = 10k over 5s (1.6k/s)

I’d probably lower that value a bit to around 8-9k over 3s for Ward. That’s what ppl would get for Ward’s burst heal if they stacked 60k magicka.

Jsmalls · April 16

@Turtle_Bot

Thanks!! Pretty much exactly what I estimated haha.

But once again Shroud SHOULDN'T heal for the same thing as healthy offering because it has a lot of utility and group healing factors.

StaticWave · April 16

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

Give it up @StaticWave

I've learned that most single class mains are [snip] and keep asking for buffs to their class and nerfs to others.
[snip] so you best just learn to play the FOTM class which right now is Sorc.

Unfortunately my main is Sorc lol. Been playing it for 5 years and sticked with it thru buffs and nerfs. I’m not happy with its current state but it’s very close to being balanced and playable if they just tweak it slightly.

[edited to remove quote]

Turtle_Bot · April 16

StaticWave wrote: »

@Jsmalls @Turtle_Bot
I changed the title.

They could take away HP Sorc too. One of my suggestions was making Blood Magic scale off offensive stats instead to promote high damage builds. However, they went the other route with this buff. Fine by me.

As of now I don’t see a reason to go lower than 40k HP on stamsorc though. It’s the same issue with stamden in general. It’s cool to gain that extra 8k-9k stam, which is equivalent to about 750-850 weapon dmg or so. However, the benefit of a high HP pool simply outweighs the lower damage output. In BG and solo PvP, I still have plenty of kill potential and I’m surviving better. I die less to gankers and ult bombs. Not saying I don’t want high HP builds to be nerfed, but I’m just saying with the state of the game rn it’s a throw for me to go lower than 40k HP.

yeah, I'd love to go back to my 30k health, 25-30k mag full damage magsorc, but even on magsorc, if you're not going full send into max mag stacking, sitting significantly below 40k health just isn't worth the proportionally minimal damage gained from the <10k max mag, especially with the prevalence of ball groups currently that see 30k or less health without a massive ward as free AP.

monkidb16_ESO · April 16

StaticWave wrote: »

Unfortunately my main is Sorc lol. Been playing it for 5 years and sticked with it thru buffs and nerfs. I’m not happy with its current state but it’s very close to being balanced and playable if they just tweak it slightly.

Then just lean back and enjoy it, utill it gets overnerfed in a few moths or so, but get ready to play the new FOTM after that. It's the cycle thats been happening for years now which is why it's stupid to just main a single class in this game.

Turtle_Bot · April 16

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot

Thanks!! Pretty much exactly what I estimated haha.

But once again Shroud SHOULDN'T heal for the same thing as healthy offering because it has a lot of utility and group healing factors.

yeah, I don't want shroud to have a 20k+ tooltip either as that would be absurd (fun for about 1 second, but completely absurd and unbalanced).

But shroud with this change to blood magic is in a really good spot now, still below ST burst heals, but strong enough (when combined with BM changes that only heals the caster) to make a suitable option as a self heal that also has potential as group utility.

MashmalloMan · April 16

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Simply stating X or Y is OP and needs nerfing, while simplistic and catchy, is why we end up with things like U35 deletion of sorcs and immediate panic buffs to BA/prey due to the simplistic outcrys of "savage werewolf sorc is OP needs nerf now", or the removal of overloads 3rd bar, the removal of harmony cro, attempts to put cast times on wards, etc, etc.

Buffs CW by +100% with 2 hits only to nerf it a patch later by -10% and -70%. We all said it was too powerful, but how did it end up the tinnnnniest bit better than the original, when they initially thought it deserved 100% more value.

Or how about releasing Oakensoul Sorc in an OP state with Major Heroism among other buffs, only to nerf the item later, but for whatever reason the class as well with Atro going from 28s to 15s.

Or.. adding hybridization to the game, then nerfing Bound Armaments damage and removing light attack bonus because stam sorc gained mag skills despite getting no hybridization healing benefits other classes got.

CW is technically better than the og, but not by much. Atro's synergy is better, but the nerf to duration after 8+ years due to a set is silly. BA is still dog water, not hybridized, easy to dodge, marginally better than a spammable, while having less value by not being needed for Expert Summoner.

MashmalloMan · April 16

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Gonna have to agree. Blood Magic change is fantastic, but Hardened Ward's heal is too bursty in addition with the changes on high max mag stacking builds because they can sustain the 4.5k cost of it practically infinitely. However removing it entirely seems heavy handed.

Viable Max HP stacking builds using Ward, but not building as a troll tank (eg. 40k HP) have a harder time sustaining the high mag cost, while also having a lower tooltip. It seems more balanced on this end vs max mag stacking builds, but still too strong with Blood Magic changes accounted for.

I think the obvious fix is to change Wards heal into a hot, but I'd like to add that I don't think it should scale with resources, HP, or suggestions like damage at all. Imo it should be a flat value the same way Dark Conversion and Critical Surge are, this would eliminate the extremes between being negligible to completely overpowered.

Eg something like:
- Hardened = 10k over 3s (2.5k/s)
- Empowered = 10k over 5s (1.6k/s)

I’d probably lower that value a bit to around 8-9k over 3s for Ward. That’s what ppl would get for Ward’s burst heal if they stacked 60k magicka.

True, and I considered that, however hots typically have higher total tooltips than burst heals so I think a small buff to the total, but a huge nerf to the burst would be balanced.

Burst on Hardened would go down from 4k-9k (27k-60k) to a flat 2.5k.

As I write this I realize a hot ticking once a second means spamming it would be be 2 ticks a second, not 1, renabling the intent to remove the burst heal element. To combat that:

Hardened - 10k over 6s (2.5k x 4)
Empowered - 10k over 10s (1.66 x 6)

yadibroz · April 16

StaticWave wrote: »

This single change massively buffs Sorc healing. At 30k HP, Blood Magic has a 3k tooltip in NO CP. Everytime you cast Dark Deal/Conversion, Vibrant Shroud, Crystal Weapon/Frag, you activate that heal. You don't even need to be offensive. For example:

- Casting Dark Deal will now give you 8k + 3k = 11k burst heal
- Casting Dark Conversion will now give you 10k + 3k = 13k burst heal
- Casting Vibrant Shroud will now give you 10k + 3k = 13k burst heal

Dark Deal/Conversion has a caveat being that you can be interrupted, but if you cast it while CC immune and under a shield, you're going to get a massive heal back. Vibrant Shroud now has competitive healing. With a combined 13k tooltip, it's very comparable to single target heals like Healthy Offering and HoTD, but better because it's also fully AoE and applies Major Maim and Minor Vitality:

So a single rework to this passive makes Sorc healing comparable to other classes. What are we going to do about Hardened Ward? This skill is overperforming on the live server. Imagine magsorc next patch. Not only do they have a 13-14k shield with a 7-8k burst heal, but everytime they cast Dark Conversion they're going to get another 13k burst heal underneath.

Please consider removing the burst heal from Hardened Ward for the game's balance and giving it a HoT instead.

We need a overtime healing for those 3 classes

i11ionward · April 16

Literally 2 updates and Sorс from a class with the worst survivability turns into a class with the best survivability. Standing ovation, the developers are class balance geniuses.

My opinion is that changing Blood Magic is a good decision, but Conjured Ward and morphs need to be returned to their pre-41 update state.

Necrotech_Master · April 16

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave

AoE Burst heal (that procs Blood Magic for the user) that targets (is there a limit to how many people it can heal?)
Minor Vitality
Major Maim

As far as your comments on using it in conjunction with Ward.

Bar space is definitely an issue for this. Unless scribing replaces Magelight with a usable skill. And it's really hard to drop Bound Aegis with everything it offers. I'm using Crushing weapon for breach but choose to run hurricane because I like the ability, and my abilities are pretty set in stone (unless I run Chudan).

But what are you giving up for shrouded. You'd have two "burst" heals if you use both ward and shrouded which doesn't make much sense. What I would like to see is the option to use shrouded as a spell damage burst heal setup to replace the magicka stacking setups hardened ward influences.

As far as I can tell it doesn't have a limit for how many it can heal

(screenshot is PvE tooltip at 5k weapon damage + 30k mag with 38k health, it's for farming IA)

It is still slightly below matriarchs heal (~5%) when the blood magic heal is added to it, so it will definitely be a strong self heal when combined with the updated blood magic passive, but that's about it.
Even with the heal from blood magic included, it is not looking anywhere near as strong as ward (tooltips sitting about 40% behind ward), so I am not worried about it being broken even with the proposed blood magic passive change and it having minor vitality + major maim.
Also, as you said, finding room for it on the bar is very difficult, especially if you want to fit hurricane (or boundless) to free up the monster set slot, so one of those scribing abilities is really going to have to have an insane combination of effects/synergies with sorcs kit that also includes major prophecy/savagery to make it worth slotting over inner light + another ability to free that slot up for shroud.
Another factor is that shroud is an AoE heal where all of sorcs other heals are single target so it won't get percent buffs from CP if the sorc invests in those since the single target will provide more healing when factored across crit surge, blood magic, dark exchange, ward, vigor, etc. (even matriarch is ST).
What I see likely happening is shroud will be an option for 30-35k health damage proc-sorc builds over dark exchange if the player feels they have enough sustain already to not need exchange or really hate the cast time or maybe want some group utility, but ward/exchange will still be the go to burst heals over it with most who opt for either morph going for spines instead for the AoE delayed burst and immobilization to combine with streak stun + curse for a delayed burst combo.

while most abilities dont state it, AoE healing abilities or procs have always been target capped to 6 targets (unless its like an ultimate which caps at 12)

the debuffs likely dont have a target cap as those apply to the enemies, but the heal i can almost certainly guarantee is capped at 6

ZhuJiuyin · April 17

Considering the known effects of Scribing include removing shield, this will make Sorc and Arcan less survivable.
So I think we can still wait and see if the introduction of Scribing can achieve a balance.

NyassaV · April 17

The fact they didn't adjust the heal and then gave sorc this buff is puzzling.

Vaqual · April 17

Devs reviewing the balancing decisions of the previous patch while conceptualising the current one:

Just kidding. I have decided to switch to a delusionally positive outlook. I am sure there is a great plan that will make sense at some indeterminate point in the future. Thanks for making this thread and also the ward thread. I am at ease knowing someone is fighting the important battles.

StaticWave · April 29

Vaqual wrote: »

Devs reviewing the balancing decisions of the previous patch while conceptualising the current one:

Just kidding. I have decided to switch to a delusionally positive outlook. I am sure there is a great plan that will make sense at some indeterminate point in the future. Thanks for making this thread and also the ward thread. I am at ease knowing someone is fighting the important battles.

I'm already theory crafting a bunch of builds for next patch. Needless to say I will be enjoying the changes. Blood Magic is going to be an amazing change for my playstyle and I can't wait for it.

Tannus15 · April 29

@MashmalloMan regarding the atro nerf, while I was sad about it at the time, oakensorc only exposed the issues that were going to arise from sets like pillagers.

I do think greater atro needs some sort of buff right now, probably always proc concussed like the aoe atro on it's single target hits. It's silly that it's less single target damage than the aoe morph with the same duration and the questionable benefit of hitting targets that have moved away from it, but not so far away as to be out of range...