Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Nope, casting streak will not always teleport You. Uneven terrain is real issue for that ability. Like if You want to teleport upwards often You will be moved like 2 meters forward or not at all and if You want to be teleported downwards You will end up in the air and You will provide enemies with 1 second of free beating until You land, perform a forced dodge animation and be able to use some ability. Immobilizes are the other issue. You can teleport but not in the desired direction which becomes problematic in tight space or if there are obstacles around and may cause You to basically teleport into an obstacle 1 meetr away which is like not teleporting at all

Being in a cone is a real tricky thing lately. Someone can be in the cone on Your screen but game will still decide that he wasn't. It happens regularly. As for CC immunity it's like saying that if someone is invisible and enemy don't have detection pot active than he is invisible.

So in worst case scenario You can use that ability and get literally nothing, which never happens in terms of cloak.

So skill issue?

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Nope, casting streak will not always teleport You. Uneven terrain is real issue for that ability. Like if You want to teleport upwards often You will be moved like 2 meters forward or not at all and if You want to be teleported downwards You will end up in the air and You will provide enemies with 1 second of free beating until You land, perform a forced dodge animation and be able to use some ability. Immobilizes are the other issue. You can teleport but not in the desired direction which becomes problematic in tight space or if there are obstacles around and may cause You to basically teleport into an obstacle 1 meetr away which is like not teleporting at all

Being in a cone is a real tricky thing lately. Someone can be in the cone on Your screen but game will still decide that he wasn't. It happens regularly. As for CC immunity it's like saying that if someone is invisible and enemy don't have detection pot active than he is invisible.

So in worst case scenario You can use that ability and get literally nothing, which never happens in terms of cloak.

So skill issue?

Umm what? Please elaborate.

You first complaint is you are casting streak and suffering from fall damage, streaking into elevated ground and the steak is cut short, or streaking into an obstacle and streak is cut short. This is a skill issue.

Second is when you immobilised and you streak in the unintended direction. Again a skill issue, your character is immobilised and can't rotate, a good trick is to do a medium weave and it will turn your character to the direction your camera is facing.

Third I don't understand you mention detects for some reason.

If someone casts cloak and a skill that reveals or a detection is nearby, you get zero invisibility so you wasted magicka for literally nothing but your invisibility lasted zero seconds.

Can never happen with streak.

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Nope, casting streak will not always teleport You. Uneven terrain is real issue for that ability. Like if You want to teleport upwards often You will be moved like 2 meters forward or not at all and if You want to be teleported downwards You will end up in the air and You will provide enemies with 1 second of free beating until You land, perform a forced dodge animation and be able to use some ability. Immobilizes are the other issue. You can teleport but not in the desired direction which becomes problematic in tight space or if there are obstacles around and may cause You to basically teleport into an obstacle 1 meetr away which is like not teleporting at all

Being in a cone is a real tricky thing lately. Someone can be in the cone on Your screen but game will still decide that he wasn't. It happens regularly. As for CC immunity it's like saying that if someone is invisible and enemy don't have detection pot active than he is invisible.

So in worst case scenario You can use that ability and get literally nothing, which never happens in terms of cloak.

So skill issue?

Umm what? Please elaborate.

You first complaint is you are casting streak and suffering from fall damage, streaking into elevated ground and the steak is cut short, or streaking into an obstacle and streak is cut short. This is a skill issue.

Second is when you immobilised and you streak in the unintended direction. Again a skill issue, your character is immobilised and can't rotate, a good trick is to do a medium weave and it will turn your character to the direction your camera is facing.

Third I don't understand you mention detects for some reason.

If someone casts cloak and a skill that reveals or a detection is nearby, you get zero invisibility so you wasted magicka for literally nothing but your invisibility lasted zero seconds.

Can never happen with streak.

No it's not my complaint it's just stating the obvious flaws in streak design. Also how is core design flaw of streak a skill issue? Do You know methods to get perfect 15 meters teleport always no matter terrain?

Medium weave trick works only if You have enemy to aim Your heavy at, otherwise You will still teleport in the direction Your character was facing when getting immobilized. If You are lucky enemy will be located in the direction You want to teleport if You're unlucky he won't.

Yes You get zero invisibility but saying that You get nothing is incorrect. Auto crit on next attack and major resolve still applies. And when it comes to wasted magicka I would argue that more magicka was wasted in the game on failed reveal attempts than on succesfull ones. Detect abilities suck big time considering nightblade's mobility.

Like I already said You can cast streak and get completly nothing but You will never cast cloak and get completly nothing. And if that's not enough You get something even for just slotting cloak.

And if we are talking about skill issues there is no bigger skill issue than nightblade in U41 having any problems with sources of detection. Dying because of sources of detection is propably the biggest skill issue in the game considering how stacked nb currently is with different tools allowing him to survive out of cloak.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Nope, casting streak will not always teleport You. Uneven terrain is real issue for that ability. Like if You want to teleport upwards often You will be moved like 2 meters forward or not at all and if You want to be teleported downwards You will end up in the air and You will provide enemies with 1 second of free beating until You land, perform a forced dodge animation and be able to use some ability. Immobilizes are the other issue. You can teleport but not in the desired direction which becomes problematic in tight space or if there are obstacles around and may cause You to basically teleport into an obstacle 1 meetr away which is like not teleporting at all

Being in a cone is a real tricky thing lately. Someone can be in the cone on Your screen but game will still decide that he wasn't. It happens regularly. As for CC immunity it's like saying that if someone is invisible and enemy don't have detection pot active than he is invisible.

So in worst case scenario You can use that ability and get literally nothing, which never happens in terms of cloak.

So skill issue?

Umm what? Please elaborate.

You first complaint is you are casting streak and suffering from fall damage, streaking into elevated ground and the steak is cut short, or streaking into an obstacle and streak is cut short. This is a skill issue.

Second is when you immobilised and you streak in the unintended direction. Again a skill issue, your character is immobilised and can't rotate, a good trick is to do a medium weave and it will turn your character to the direction your camera is facing.

Third I don't understand you mention detects for some reason.

If someone casts cloak and a skill that reveals or a detection is nearby, you get zero invisibility so you wasted magicka for literally nothing but your invisibility lasted zero seconds.

Can never happen with streak.

No it's not my complaint it's just stating the obvious flaws in streak design. Also how is core design flaw of streak a skill issue? Do You know methods to get perfect 15 meters teleport always no matter terrain?

Medium weave trick works only if You have enemy to aim Your heavy at, otherwise You will still teleport in the direction Your character was facing when getting immobilized. If You are lucky enemy will be located in the direction You want to teleport if You're unlucky he won't.

Yes You get zero invisibility but saying that You get nothing is incorrect. Auto crit on next attack and major resolve still applies. And when it comes to wasted magicka I would argue that more magicka was wasted in the game on failed reveal attempts than on succesfull ones. Detect abilities suck big time considering nightblade's mobility.

Like I already said You can cast streak and get completly nothing but You will never cast cloak and get completly nothing. And if that's not enough You get something even for just slotting cloak.

And if we are talking about skill issues there is no bigger skill issue than nightblade in U41 having any problems with sources of detection. Dying because of sources of detection is propably the biggest skill issue in the game considering how stacked nb currently is with different tools allowing him to survive out of cloak.

Yes because peoples problem with Cloak is that it activated your passives...

Literally skill issue.

Streak is the best skill in the game and it's not even close.
Every cast is a guaranteed teleport, damage and CC. If you are casting it at the wrong time that's a you issue.

And since they FINALLY added the detect icon on people using the potions, a NB casting cloak next to someone with a defect is a skill issue too. But there are other things you can't predict like AoE spam etc which will cause you to cast cloak and get zero invisibility which makes cloak useless.

They would need to apply substantial buffs to justify that kind of adjustment.

A 10 year old skill is suddenly annoying for players. Outrageous! Nerf it! (again).

Complaining about 1 guaranteed crit for one hit which might not even be the skill, when 50% crit resist is basically a given...

I stopped playing for 2 years until 2 weeks ago. It's heart warming to see there are still arguments between streak and cloak.

Truth is, they have nothing to do with one another and it's all about one-upmanship. "If you're going to complain about this, then what about that."

Meanwhile it took me 2 weeks to realize detect pot is now essentially 50 meters lol. I kept wondering why th players were running clear across a battlefield to find me all by my lonesome watching from afar.

Basically, if you can't be bothered to run detect, then that's on you. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get baited into a battle with a sorc streaker, then that's also on you. Neither of these are the real issue with PVP, and it's funny because the real issue with PVP is the same as when I stopped playing before: tanks.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

...due to how much buffs nightblade recived in the mobility, evasiveness, sustain and survivability areas in the meantime.

I agree on survivability, but I don't agree that NB has received buffs in mobility, evasiveness or cloak sustain (sustain in general, perhaps).

In regards to mobility, my NB has been at or near the speed cap ever since I started PvPing with her in 2016. Concealed Weapon had a unique, stacking 25% speed buff back then for one thing. If you refer to Race Against Time, yes that was a boon to magblades, but more so for ease of theory-crafting. Forward Momentum offered 8s of root / snare immunity in the past - it was actually stronger than anything we have now - while Major Expedition was always available to bow users and attached to more NB skills than Path.

Evasiveness: Shadow Image hasn't fundamentally changed, nor has the speed buff from from dodging with a bow since forever. So what are you referring to? Exact mechanics have changed, but it was always possible to be at speed cap, at least since Swift jewelry came out. Arguably all characters are faster on average today, bumping up against the cap more easily. It's actually more difficult to stand out as being super fast.

So I don't know what you're referring to. Is it the Cloak mechanic tidyup that happend somewhere around ... was it the infamous U35 patch? Sure, Hurricane no longer uncloaks you, but detection skills were buffed. Since then, new bugs have crept (back) into the game that uncloak you, such as Structured Entropy.

In regard specifically to cloak sustain, I think the recent Siphoning Attacks / Leeching Strikes change is a very ambiguous one, if that's what you're thinking of. It's basically better combat sustain. As a cloak sustain tool, it's arguably a nerf. I could previously recast Siphoning Attacks in cloak to help sustain that skill. Now I lose health, if I do so. In most cases I can't recover that health quickly without uncloaking. If I was a ganker who wants to sacrifice health for power, I might welcome that, but for other playstyles it's not great.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I stopped playing for 2 years until 2 weeks ago. It's heart warming to see there are still arguments between streak and cloak.

Truth is, they have nothing to do with one another and it's all about one-upmanship. "If you're going to complain about this, then what about that."

Meanwhile it took me 2 weeks to realize detect pot is now essentially 50 meters lol. I kept wondering why th players were running clear across a battlefield to find me all by my lonesome watching from afar.

Basically, if you can't be bothered to run detect, then that's on you. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get baited into a battle with a sorc streaker, then that's also on you. Neither of these are the real issue with PVP, and it's funny because the real issue with PVP is the same as when I stopped playing before: tanks.

Maybe it would took You less time to figure out that detect potions now have longer detect distance if nightblade wouldn't be overbuffed to the point where other players detecting him are now way less of an issue than they were in the past. 20 meters detect potions few years ago were stronger than 43 meters detect pots right now due to how much buffs nightblade recived in the mobility, evasiveness, sustain and survivability areas.

Running detection pots these days is basically nerfing Yourself because any nightblade player who knows basics of playing his class will be able to easily survive detection window when on the other hand using detection potion is a noticable sacrifice for its user in areas like sustain or damage. Only extreme noob nbs these days are reliably dying because of detect pots and the only reason detect pot is worth using is the fact that b still has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class among all 7 classes..

it's funny that You claim that main issue in PvP is tanks when in reality if You ask said tanks why they're building so tanky then one of the most repeated answers will be something along the lines of "because of nightblades ganks" or "because I don't want to be one shotted out of knowhere by a nb" etc. If we want to see less tanks than nerfing nightblades especially in the stealth playstyle area is one of the ways to achieve that.

I appreciate your reply. Here is my counter.

1. You have nearly 50 meters of detect radius and it lasts for 15 seconds. From what I gather, your argument is that because you are detecting people from so ridiculously far away, they can move out of your radius before you reach them. Well, I don't know what to say about that. That's like saying you can go to an all-you-can-eat buffet and eat as much as you want, but you're salty because you can't take home another plate of food.

2. Do the same thing everyone else has to do: work together with players so you're not the only one running detect.

3. Yes, you are sacrificing for having the OP detect radius, vs the small resource cost of a spammable detect skill with a lower radius and shorter length of time. Everything should have a cost that matches the effect. Completely negating the most important survival skill of a core gameplay style shouldn't be easy or cheap.

4. The main issue is tanks. Specifically 60k tank healers, and 40k tank DDs that can output as much burst as a 26k pure DD. Your "solution" to killing nightblades will have zero affect on the number of tank players, because as you point out, players who favor that playstyle are allergic to dying in a PVP game, and they'd rather have 10 minute battles around towers without being inconvenienced by an unexpected attack. Even if you delete nightblades from the game altogether, which I know would be the dream for a small but loud contingent of players, you would still have people mad about dying to a sorc, or a templar, or a DK, or a Necro, etc etc etc. Dying is the problem for those players. If it isn't a NB killing them, it's another class.

5. If "nightblade has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class" and you can't kill them, then what does that say about the person who can't manage to catch and kill a noob with 10k resistances? No skill in the game can be simply nullified with a potion or skills other than cloak. I suggest asking more experienced players for tips on killing NBs. It isn't hard. I do it all the time.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I stopped playing for 2 years until 2 weeks ago. It's heart warming to see there are still arguments between streak and cloak.

Truth is, they have nothing to do with one another and it's all about one-upmanship. "If you're going to complain about this, then what about that."

Meanwhile it took me 2 weeks to realize detect pot is now essentially 50 meters lol. I kept wondering why th players were running clear across a battlefield to find me all by my lonesome watching from afar.

Basically, if you can't be bothered to run detect, then that's on you. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get baited into a battle with a sorc streaker, then that's also on you. Neither of these are the real issue with PVP, and it's funny because the real issue with PVP is the same as when I stopped playing before: tanks.

Maybe it would took You less time to figure out that detect potions now have longer detect distance if nightblade wouldn't be overbuffed to the point where other players detecting him are now way less of an issue than they were in the past. 20 meters detect potions few years ago were stronger than 43 meters detect pots right now due to how much buffs nightblade recived in the mobility, evasiveness, sustain and survivability areas.

Running detection pots these days is basically nerfing Yourself because any nightblade player who knows basics of playing his class will be able to easily survive detection window when on the other hand using detection potion is a noticable sacrifice for its user in areas like sustain or damage. Only extreme noob nbs these days are reliably dying because of detect pots and the only reason detect pot is worth using is the fact that b still has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class among all 7 classes..

it's funny that You claim that main issue in PvP is tanks when in reality if You ask said tanks why they're building so tanky then one of the most repeated answers will be something along the lines of "because of nightblades ganks" or "because I don't want to be one shotted out of knowhere by a nb" etc. If we want to see less tanks than nerfing nightblades especially in the stealth playstyle area is one of the ways to achieve that.

I appreciate your reply. Here is my counter.

1. You have nearly 50 meters of detect radius and it lasts for 15 seconds. From what I gather, your argument is that because you are detecting people from so ridiculously far away, they can move out of your radius before you reach them. Well, I don't know what to say about that. That's like saying you can go to an all-you-can-eat buffet and eat as much as you want, but you're salty because you can't take home another plate of food.

2. Do the same thing everyone else has to do: work together with players so you're not the only one running detect.

3. Yes, you are sacrificing for having the OP detect radius, vs the small resource cost of a spammable detect skill with a lower radius and shorter length of time. Everything should have a cost that matches the effect. Completely negating the most important survival skill of a core gameplay style shouldn't be easy or cheap.

4. The main issue is tanks. Specifically 60k tank healers, and 40k tank DDs that can output as much burst as a 26k pure DD. Your "solution" to killing nightblades will have zero affect on the number of tank players, because as you point out, players who favor that playstyle are allergic to dying in a PVP game, and they'd rather have 10 minute battles around towers without being inconvenienced by an unexpected attack. Even if you delete nightblades from the game altogether, which I know would be the dream for a small but loud contingent of players, you would still have people mad about dying to a sorc, or a templar, or a DK, or a Necro, etc etc etc. Dying is the problem for those players. If it isn't a NB killing them, it's another class.

5. If "nightblade has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class" and you can't kill them, then what does that say about the person who can't manage to catch and kill a noob with 10k resistances? No skill in the game can be simply nullified with a potion or skills other than cloak. I suggest asking more experienced players for tips on killing NBs. It isn't hard. I do it all the time.

1. You gather my argument incorrectly. Thing with nb is that class recived so many buffs to sustain, mobility, evasiveness and survivability that it's really not hard for any nb who have basic understanding of the class to easily deal with the fact he was detected. They don't need to move out of detect radius they just can shug off the fact they've been detected with plethora of other tools class currently have. When detection pot had 20 meters radius nb had less tools to deal with the fact he was being detected now class became so overbuffed that ZoS had to add major savagery/prophecy to cloak for slotting it to make it desirable once again because at some point many nightblades started to not use cloak and slot something else in it's place usually a camo hunter for crit buffs simply because nightblade right now have so much defense that decent players that are not gank playstyle fans can easily 1vX without cloak.

2. Ah so the most reliable way You reccomend to deal with nightblade is coordinated Xv1? That completly doesn't sound like class is an issue...

3. Like I said that detect radius means nothing for any nb who have basic understanding of the class. Detect skills are actually pretty expensive, last for short period of time and with nb's mobility very often 1 second of GCD it takes to cast it after some other ability is enough for nb to be already outside of detect radius. It's not a coincidence ZoS has to continously buff these abilities and add more and more passive effects to them just to make them worth slotting but every time they do it nightblade is already strong enough to deal with said abilities pretty easily. If everything should have a cost that matches the effect than cloak is definietly way too hceap for what it provides. If You think cloak is the most important survival skill of nightblade than You are really 2 years behind. These days You can even 1vX without using cloak once.

4. Plenty of these tanks would still lower their HP if nightblade wouldn't be as overbuffed as it is currently. It's no coiuncidence that for example average warden tank healer went from 35-40k HP to 45-50k+ HP suprisingly in the same time nightblade was getting massive buffs. Players that are allergic to dying in PvP will usually adjust their defenses around the biggest threats they can face in PvP and that threats are usually nightblade gankers. You may claim that massive raise in tankiness in last years and increase of nb's power and population in the same time period are just coincidences but I claim, they're not. People just had to adjust to increased population of nightbaldes and the fact even noob nb today can dish out more damage just by spamming 1-2 buttons than experienced nightblade in the past was doing with perfectly timed combo.

5. I never said I can't kill them. Nightblade is the class I usually kill the most. That is due to a reason it have the highest population in the game (currently reaching almost 30%) and among that population there is the highest population of noobs. That being said noob nb is still many times stronger than noob on any other class. The same person that is capable of being a threat on a nb in open PvP or BGs would more often than not be completly useless on any other class. Nightblade is simply a carry class at this point, a carry class that pretty much ruins the PvP balance and makes PvP in ESO unpopular. IC is a dead place and if You ask people why they don't come there very often nightblades will be mentioned as one of the reasons. Since few patches nightblade population is going up when general PvP population is droping which basically suggest that people often either roll on nb or leave PvP because don't like that playstyle.

Like it or not nightblade requires tuning down.

C'mon, man.

1. NBs for years, going all the way back, had the worst sustain out of the box. Stop being silly. I don't know what adding prophecy/savagery to cloak has to do with sustain. I still slot camo hunter for minor berserk and in case I'm still on potion cooldown. I'm sure a lot of people don't bother running that or inner light anymore, so if your argument is "they got an extra skill slot now" well, okay. But I could list all the free buffs other classes get. For example, Warden has a free-to-cast skill that gives Major Brutality and Sorcery AND restores a LARGE amount of either stamina or magicka. Free to cast.

I'm not sure what these "defenses" you're referring to. Healing? Every class can heal. Resources? DK, Warden and Sorc all have better sustain. I don't play Arcanist so not sure about that. Sorcs can get away faster than any NB can run and they have more survivability than a gank. Maybe you're talking about the tankier NB builds? If so, see my original statement about tanks.

2. I see Sorcs leading 20 people around a keep. But okay, complain about having to work with another person to kill a player.

3. Again, 15 seconds, which is half your cooldown, and 47.5 meters. If you can't capitalize on this, then you need to rethink your strategy. I'm glad we agree that cloak isn't the most important survival skill for NB.

4. Why would a tank with 35 to 40k health lower their health if they are doing enough damage to kill people? They wouldn't. People run high health, high resistances because they can use one damage set and get plenty of burst.

5. It's the class you usually kill most but you're arguing that they are too hard to kill, even though they are mostly played by "noobs." Your logic makes no sense. IC is dead because the only people who try to go there outside of events are questers, and they don't know how to properly run IC. It's boring. All you have to do is get your 1000 Tel-Var, port to Cyrodiil, then port back to IC and go get another 1k. The people who complain about IC are questers who want to just run around and never get attacked. Sorry, that's not the game.

Have a lovely day.

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc is on par, if not better than NB right now, unironically. I dropped Streak altogether and opted for movement speed because I'm so tanky. I'm basically a NB right now lol.

Both Cloak and Streak need to be nerfed if we want to keep the current iteration of Sorc and NB. It's so unfair for other classes that the 2 most mobile and elusive classes in the game are also two of the tankiest.

I'd prefer it if cloak and streak aren't touched. Healthy offering and Hardened ward on the other hand...

I think most players who play the class and play against it would rather have a ramping health cost or cast time on offering, and a ramping cost on siphoning attacks.

Available cloak is in line with the sneaky assassin power fantasy. Braindead sustain and full heals is not, but should be available to a more limited degree than other classes since that's just how the game is today.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I stopped playing for 2 years until 2 weeks ago. It's heart warming to see there are still arguments between streak and cloak.

Truth is, they have nothing to do with one another and it's all about one-upmanship. "If you're going to complain about this, then what about that."

Meanwhile it took me 2 weeks to realize detect pot is now essentially 50 meters lol. I kept wondering why th players were running clear across a battlefield to find me all by my lonesome watching from afar.

Basically, if you can't be bothered to run detect, then that's on you. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get baited into a battle with a sorc streaker, then that's also on you. Neither of these are the real issue with PVP, and it's funny because the real issue with PVP is the same as when I stopped playing before: tanks.

Maybe it would took You less time to figure out that detect potions now have longer detect distance if nightblade wouldn't be overbuffed to the point where other players detecting him are now way less of an issue than they were in the past. 20 meters detect potions few years ago were stronger than 43 meters detect pots right now due to how much buffs nightblade recived in the mobility, evasiveness, sustain and survivability areas.

Running detection pots these days is basically nerfing Yourself because any nightblade player who knows basics of playing his class will be able to easily survive detection window when on the other hand using detection potion is a noticable sacrifice for its user in areas like sustain or damage. Only extreme noob nbs these days are reliably dying because of detect pots and the only reason detect pot is worth using is the fact that b still has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class among all 7 classes..

it's funny that You claim that main issue in PvP is tanks when in reality if You ask said tanks why they're building so tanky then one of the most repeated answers will be something along the lines of "because of nightblades ganks" or "because I don't want to be one shotted out of knowhere by a nb" etc. If we want to see less tanks than nerfing nightblades especially in the stealth playstyle area is one of the ways to achieve that.

I appreciate your reply. Here is my counter.

1. You have nearly 50 meters of detect radius and it lasts for 15 seconds. From what I gather, your argument is that because you are detecting people from so ridiculously far away, they can move out of your radius before you reach them. Well, I don't know what to say about that. That's like saying you can go to an all-you-can-eat buffet and eat as much as you want, but you're salty because you can't take home another plate of food.

2. Do the same thing everyone else has to do: work together with players so you're not the only one running detect.

3. Yes, you are sacrificing for having the OP detect radius, vs the small resource cost of a spammable detect skill with a lower radius and shorter length of time. Everything should have a cost that matches the effect. Completely negating the most important survival skill of a core gameplay style shouldn't be easy or cheap.

4. The main issue is tanks. Specifically 60k tank healers, and 40k tank DDs that can output as much burst as a 26k pure DD. Your "solution" to killing nightblades will have zero affect on the number of tank players, because as you point out, players who favor that playstyle are allergic to dying in a PVP game, and they'd rather have 10 minute battles around towers without being inconvenienced by an unexpected attack. Even if you delete nightblades from the game altogether, which I know would be the dream for a small but loud contingent of players, you would still have people mad about dying to a sorc, or a templar, or a DK, or a Necro, etc etc etc. Dying is the problem for those players. If it isn't a NB killing them, it's another class.

5. If "nightblade has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class" and you can't kill them, then what does that say about the person who can't manage to catch and kill a noob with 10k resistances? No skill in the game can be simply nullified with a potion or skills other than cloak. I suggest asking more experienced players for tips on killing NBs. It isn't hard. I do it all the time.

1. You gather my argument incorrectly. Thing with nb is that class recived so many buffs to sustain, mobility, evasiveness and survivability that it's really not hard for any nb who have basic understanding of the class to easily deal with the fact he was detected. They don't need to move out of detect radius they just can shug off the fact they've been detected with plethora of other tools class currently have. When detection pot had 20 meters radius nb had less tools to deal with the fact he was being detected now class became so overbuffed that ZoS had to add major savagery/prophecy to cloak for slotting it to make it desirable once again because at some point many nightblades started to not use cloak and slot something else in it's place usually a camo hunter for crit buffs simply because nightblade right now have so much defense that decent players that are not gank playstyle fans can easily 1vX without cloak.

2. Ah so the most reliable way You reccomend to deal with nightblade is coordinated Xv1? That completly doesn't sound like class is an issue...

3. Like I said that detect radius means nothing for any nb who have basic understanding of the class. Detect skills are actually pretty expensive, last for short period of time and with nb's mobility very often 1 second of GCD it takes to cast it after some other ability is enough for nb to be already outside of detect radius. It's not a coincidence ZoS has to continously buff these abilities and add more and more passive effects to them just to make them worth slotting but every time they do it nightblade is already strong enough to deal with said abilities pretty easily. If everything should have a cost that matches the effect than cloak is definietly way too hceap for what it provides. If You think cloak is the most important survival skill of nightblade than You are really 2 years behind. These days You can even 1vX without using cloak once.

4. Plenty of these tanks would still lower their HP if nightblade wouldn't be as overbuffed as it is currently. It's no coiuncidence that for example average warden tank healer went from 35-40k HP to 45-50k+ HP suprisingly in the same time nightblade was getting massive buffs. Players that are allergic to dying in PvP will usually adjust their defenses around the biggest threats they can face in PvP and that threats are usually nightblade gankers. You may claim that massive raise in tankiness in last years and increase of nb's power and population in the same time period are just coincidences but I claim, they're not. People just had to adjust to increased population of nightbaldes and the fact even noob nb today can dish out more damage just by spamming 1-2 buttons than experienced nightblade in the past was doing with perfectly timed combo.

5. I never said I can't kill them. Nightblade is the class I usually kill the most. That is due to a reason it have the highest population in the game (currently reaching almost 30%) and among that population there is the highest population of noobs. That being said noob nb is still many times stronger than noob on any other class. The same person that is capable of being a threat on a nb in open PvP or BGs would more often than not be completly useless on any other class. Nightblade is simply a carry class at this point, a carry class that pretty much ruins the PvP balance and makes PvP in ESO unpopular. IC is a dead place and if You ask people why they don't come there very often nightblades will be mentioned as one of the reasons. Since few patches nightblade population is going up when general PvP population is droping which basically suggest that people often either roll on nb or leave PvP because don't like that playstyle.

Like it or not nightblade requires tuning down.

C'mon, man.

1. NBs for years, going all the way back, had the worst sustain out of the box. Stop being silly. I don't know what adding prophecy/savagery to cloak has to do with sustain. I still slot camo hunter for minor berserk and in case I'm still on potion cooldown. I'm sure a lot of people don't bother running that or inner light anymore, so if your argument is "they got an extra skill slot now" well, okay. But I could list all the free buffs other classes get. For example, Warden has a free-to-cast skill that gives Major Brutality and Sorcery AND restores a LARGE amount of either stamina or magicka. Free to cast.

I'm not sure what these "defenses" you're referring to. Healing? Every class can heal. Resources? DK, Warden and Sorc all have better sustain. I don't play Arcanist so not sure about that. Sorcs can get away faster than any NB can run and they have more survivability than a gank. Maybe you're talking about the tankier NB builds? If so, see my original statement about tanks.

2. I see Sorcs leading 20 people around a keep. But okay, complain about having to work with another person to kill a player.

3. Again, 15 seconds, which is half your cooldown, and 47.5 meters. If you can't capitalize on this, then you need to rethink your strategy. I'm glad we agree that cloak isn't the most important survival skill for NB.

4. Why would a tank with 35 to 40k health lower their health if they are doing enough damage to kill people? They wouldn't. People run high health, high resistances because they can use one damage set and get plenty of burst.

5. It's the class you usually kill most but you're arguing that they are too hard to kill, even though they are mostly played by "noobs." Your logic makes no sense. IC is dead because the only people who try to go there outside of events are questers, and they don't know how to properly run IC. It's boring. All you have to do is get your 1000 Tel-Var, port to Cyrodiil, then port back to IC and go get another 1k. The people who complain about IC are questers who want to just run around and never get attacked. Sorry, that's not the game.

Have a lovely day.

1. Nightblade always had decent levels of sustain when played properly. heavy attacks from sneak to off balanced targets and high regens and ability to deal with dodge penatly by entering cloak were massive adventages of the class. And right now with new siphoning attacks sustain became limitless. Claiming that nb have weak sustain is silly. Adding prophecy savagery have nothing to do with cloak sustain, read what I wrote more carefully than maybe You will understand what I had in mind when talking about savagery/prophecy added to cloak. If You want to name free to cast abilities on other classes that we can also mention that nb currently have 7 abilities that provide him with different usefull effects that work on both bars just for slotting them. These effects are : ulti charge on soul harvest, minor protection on dark cloak, major savagery/prophecy on shadowy discguise, healing while dealing dmg on both morphs of siphoning strikes, restoring resources while dealing dmg on siphoning attacks, minor expedition on concealed weapon, wep/spell dmg increase and spectral bow proc for light attacks on both grim focus morphs. And if You want to talk about netch than nb have leeching strikes which heal him passively and can also be used for free and will on average restore way more resources than netch. And siphoning attacks is just straight broken ability in terms of sustain when used properly.

2. Nightblade don't even need to lead that 20 people anywhere. Any time it's not completly open field he can take them and troll them endlesly. I know because I did. In terms of that mentioned sorc if there is like 1 or 2+ sorcs with 3 brain cells in that zerg that chases him he is done because these sorcs in zerg will not allow him to refresh but when nightblade is met by zerg even if that zerg have sources of detection nb still can survive that and troll them around with nice mobility, strong burst heal, strong evasiveness thanks to phantasmal escape and shadow image, borderline broken sustain with siphoning strikes and optional abusal of lefthander mythic which synergizes the best with nb due to his roll dodge cost reduction from phantasmal escape and option to wait out dodge cost penatly in cloak.

3.Again, almost unlimited sustain, cheap and strong burst heal, strong mobility and evasiveness. if You can't capitilize on this for 15 seconds than You need to rethink Your strategy. Nightblade just have so much other methods to survive that they started to make cloak optional.

4. Quite simple, to get even more damage or to improve in other areas they're lacking. And yes they would lower their health. Not all of them but it would be definietly noticable that meta became a bit less tanky. We actually saw this happening when nightblade got nerfed few years ago and for a moment people started to either lower their HP or stopped to increase it and than suprisingly and coincidentally HP increasing started once again around the time nightblade started to recive massive buffs to the point today it's really not that suprising to meet 50k HP players. What a wierd coincidence. Like it or not one of the reasons people built tanky is current state of nb. No matter how much ZoS will be nerfing tanks people will still rather sacrifice dmg than lower their defenses siimply because there is too much nb these days and there is too much nightblades because class got completly overbuffed. People simply don't like to die randomly to someone doing 2-3 clicks out of nowhere so those who can't deal with nightblades in other ways will just build more tankiness.

5. it's the class that makes like 25-30% of current PvP population so it's obvious it will be one of the most killed classes. it doesn't mean it's a weak class though, it just have the highest amount of extremly bad people who rolled on it simply because they wouldn't be able to do nearly as much as they can on nb on any other class. And even these bad players can still be deadly due to the fact how much they're carried by the class and sets that synergize with it. They will die less than they would on other classes and they will take someone with them more often. If someone was 2/10 player on other class and now is 4/10 on nb he is still bad but he basically doubled his effectiveness. IC is dead also because of nightblades. This class completly bypasses the whole idea of high risk high reward type of gameplay that developer wanted to implement in that area and many people is simply dissatisfied with it.