Why is there still no ramping cost on Shadowy Disguise?

Major_Toughness

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Nope, casting streak will not always teleport You. Uneven terrain is real issue for that ability. Like if You want to teleport upwards often You will be moved like 2 meters forward or not at all and if You want to be teleported downwards You will end up in the air and You will provide enemies with 1 second of free beating until You land, perform a forced dodge animation and be able to use some ability. Immobilizes are the other issue. You can teleport but not in the desired direction which becomes problematic in tight space or if there are obstacles around and may cause You to basically teleport into an obstacle 1 meetr away which is like not teleporting at all

Being in a cone is a real tricky thing lately. Someone can be in the cone on Your screen but game will still decide that he wasn't. It happens regularly. As for CC immunity it's like saying that if someone is invisible and enemy don't have detection pot active than he is invisible.

So in worst case scenario You can use that ability and get literally nothing, which never happens in terms of cloak.

So skill issue?

Galeriano2

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Nope, casting streak will not always teleport You. Uneven terrain is real issue for that ability. Like if You want to teleport upwards often You will be moved like 2 meters forward or not at all and if You want to be teleported downwards You will end up in the air and You will provide enemies with 1 second of free beating until You land, perform a forced dodge animation and be able to use some ability. Immobilizes are the other issue. You can teleport but not in the desired direction which becomes problematic in tight space or if there are obstacles around and may cause You to basically teleport into an obstacle 1 meetr away which is like not teleporting at all

Being in a cone is a real tricky thing lately. Someone can be in the cone on Your screen but game will still decide that he wasn't. It happens regularly. As for CC immunity it's like saying that if someone is invisible and enemy don't have detection pot active than he is invisible.

So in worst case scenario You can use that ability and get literally nothing, which never happens in terms of cloak.

So skill issue?

Umm what? Please elaborate.

Major_Toughness

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Nope, casting streak will not always teleport You. Uneven terrain is real issue for that ability. Like if You want to teleport upwards often You will be moved like 2 meters forward or not at all and if You want to be teleported downwards You will end up in the air and You will provide enemies with 1 second of free beating until You land, perform a forced dodge animation and be able to use some ability. Immobilizes are the other issue. You can teleport but not in the desired direction which becomes problematic in tight space or if there are obstacles around and may cause You to basically teleport into an obstacle 1 meetr away which is like not teleporting at all

Being in a cone is a real tricky thing lately. Someone can be in the cone on Your screen but game will still decide that he wasn't. It happens regularly. As for CC immunity it's like saying that if someone is invisible and enemy don't have detection pot active than he is invisible.

So in worst case scenario You can use that ability and get literally nothing, which never happens in terms of cloak.

So skill issue?

Umm what? Please elaborate.

You first complaint is you are casting streak and suffering from fall damage, streaking into elevated ground and the steak is cut short, or streaking into an obstacle and streak is cut short. This is a skill issue.

Second is when you immobilised and you streak in the unintended direction. Again a skill issue, your character is immobilised and can't rotate, a good trick is to do a medium weave and it will turn your character to the direction your camera is facing.

Third I don't understand you mention detects for some reason.

If someone casts cloak and a skill that reveals or a detection is nearby, you get zero invisibility so you wasted magicka for literally nothing but your invisibility lasted zero seconds.

Can never happen with streak.

DrNukenstein

Sorc has a complete and controversial kit now. It's different than some other complete and controversial kits, and deals with different limiting factors.

Galeriano2

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Nope, casting streak will not always teleport You. Uneven terrain is real issue for that ability. Like if You want to teleport upwards often You will be moved like 2 meters forward or not at all and if You want to be teleported downwards You will end up in the air and You will provide enemies with 1 second of free beating until You land, perform a forced dodge animation and be able to use some ability. Immobilizes are the other issue. You can teleport but not in the desired direction which becomes problematic in tight space or if there are obstacles around and may cause You to basically teleport into an obstacle 1 meetr away which is like not teleporting at all

Being in a cone is a real tricky thing lately. Someone can be in the cone on Your screen but game will still decide that he wasn't. It happens regularly. As for CC immunity it's like saying that if someone is invisible and enemy don't have detection pot active than he is invisible.

So in worst case scenario You can use that ability and get literally nothing, which never happens in terms of cloak.

So skill issue?

Umm what? Please elaborate.

You first complaint is you are casting streak and suffering from fall damage, streaking into elevated ground and the steak is cut short, or streaking into an obstacle and streak is cut short. This is a skill issue.

Second is when you immobilised and you streak in the unintended direction. Again a skill issue, your character is immobilised and can't rotate, a good trick is to do a medium weave and it will turn your character to the direction your camera is facing.

Third I don't understand you mention detects for some reason.

If someone casts cloak and a skill that reveals or a detection is nearby, you get zero invisibility so you wasted magicka for literally nothing but your invisibility lasted zero seconds.

Can never happen with streak.

No it's not my complaint it's just stating the obvious flaws in streak design. Also how is core design flaw of streak a skill issue? Do You know methods to get perfect 15 meters teleport always no matter terrain?

Medium weave trick works only if You have enemy to aim Your heavy at, otherwise You will still teleport in the direction Your character was facing when getting immobilized. If You are lucky enemy will be located in the direction You want to teleport if You're unlucky he won't.

Yes You get zero invisibility but saying that You get nothing is incorrect. Auto crit on next attack and major resolve still applies. And when it comes to wasted magicka I would argue that more magicka was wasted in the game on failed reveal attempts than on succesfull ones. Detect abilities suck big time considering nightblade's mobility.

Like I already said You can cast streak and get completly nothing but You will never cast cloak and get completly nothing. And if that's not enough You get something even for just slotting cloak.

And if we are talking about skill issues there is no bigger skill issue than nightblade in U41 having any problems with sources of detection. Dying because of sources of detection is propably the biggest skill issue in the game considering how stacked nb currently is with different tools allowing him to survive out of cloak.

xylena_lazarow

This Cloak vs Streak thing feels like splitting hairs. They both take skill.

Delete the stupid op heals on Healthy and Ward, then both NB and Sorc are fine again.

Major_Toughness

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Nope, casting streak will not always teleport You. Uneven terrain is real issue for that ability. Like if You want to teleport upwards often You will be moved like 2 meters forward or not at all and if You want to be teleported downwards You will end up in the air and You will provide enemies with 1 second of free beating until You land, perform a forced dodge animation and be able to use some ability. Immobilizes are the other issue. You can teleport but not in the desired direction which becomes problematic in tight space or if there are obstacles around and may cause You to basically teleport into an obstacle 1 meetr away which is like not teleporting at all

Being in a cone is a real tricky thing lately. Someone can be in the cone on Your screen but game will still decide that he wasn't. It happens regularly. As for CC immunity it's like saying that if someone is invisible and enemy don't have detection pot active than he is invisible.

So in worst case scenario You can use that ability and get literally nothing, which never happens in terms of cloak.

So skill issue?

Umm what? Please elaborate.

You first complaint is you are casting streak and suffering from fall damage, streaking into elevated ground and the steak is cut short, or streaking into an obstacle and streak is cut short. This is a skill issue.

Second is when you immobilised and you streak in the unintended direction. Again a skill issue, your character is immobilised and can't rotate, a good trick is to do a medium weave and it will turn your character to the direction your camera is facing.

Third I don't understand you mention detects for some reason.

If someone casts cloak and a skill that reveals or a detection is nearby, you get zero invisibility so you wasted magicka for literally nothing but your invisibility lasted zero seconds.

Can never happen with streak.

No it's not my complaint it's just stating the obvious flaws in streak design. Also how is core design flaw of streak a skill issue? Do You know methods to get perfect 15 meters teleport always no matter terrain?

Medium weave trick works only if You have enemy to aim Your heavy at, otherwise You will still teleport in the direction Your character was facing when getting immobilized. If You are lucky enemy will be located in the direction You want to teleport if You're unlucky he won't.

Yes You get zero invisibility but saying that You get nothing is incorrect. Auto crit on next attack and major resolve still applies. And when it comes to wasted magicka I would argue that more magicka was wasted in the game on failed reveal attempts than on succesfull ones. Detect abilities suck big time considering nightblade's mobility.

Like I already said You can cast streak and get completly nothing but You will never cast cloak and get completly nothing. And if that's not enough You get something even for just slotting cloak.

And if we are talking about skill issues there is no bigger skill issue than nightblade in U41 having any problems with sources of detection. Dying because of sources of detection is propably the biggest skill issue in the game considering how stacked nb currently is with different tools allowing him to survive out of cloak.

Yes because peoples problem with Cloak is that it activated your passives...

Literally skill issue.

Streak is the best skill in the game and it's not even close.
Every cast is a guaranteed teleport, damage and CC. If you are casting it at the wrong time that's a you issue.

And since they FINALLY added the detect icon on people using the potions, a NB casting cloak next to someone with a defect is a skill issue too. But there are other things you can't predict like AoE spam etc which will cause you to cast cloak and get zero invisibility which makes cloak useless.

Galeriano2

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Nope, casting streak will not always teleport You. Uneven terrain is real issue for that ability. Like if You want to teleport upwards often You will be moved like 2 meters forward or not at all and if You want to be teleported downwards You will end up in the air and You will provide enemies with 1 second of free beating until You land, perform a forced dodge animation and be able to use some ability. Immobilizes are the other issue. You can teleport but not in the desired direction which becomes problematic in tight space or if there are obstacles around and may cause You to basically teleport into an obstacle 1 meetr away which is like not teleporting at all

Being in a cone is a real tricky thing lately. Someone can be in the cone on Your screen but game will still decide that he wasn't. It happens regularly. As for CC immunity it's like saying that if someone is invisible and enemy don't have detection pot active than he is invisible.

So in worst case scenario You can use that ability and get literally nothing, which never happens in terms of cloak.

So skill issue?

Umm what? Please elaborate.

You first complaint is you are casting streak and suffering from fall damage, streaking into elevated ground and the steak is cut short, or streaking into an obstacle and streak is cut short. This is a skill issue.

Second is when you immobilised and you streak in the unintended direction. Again a skill issue, your character is immobilised and can't rotate, a good trick is to do a medium weave and it will turn your character to the direction your camera is facing.

Third I don't understand you mention detects for some reason.

If someone casts cloak and a skill that reveals or a detection is nearby, you get zero invisibility so you wasted magicka for literally nothing but your invisibility lasted zero seconds.

Can never happen with streak.

No it's not my complaint it's just stating the obvious flaws in streak design. Also how is core design flaw of streak a skill issue? Do You know methods to get perfect 15 meters teleport always no matter terrain?

Medium weave trick works only if You have enemy to aim Your heavy at, otherwise You will still teleport in the direction Your character was facing when getting immobilized. If You are lucky enemy will be located in the direction You want to teleport if You're unlucky he won't.

Yes You get zero invisibility but saying that You get nothing is incorrect. Auto crit on next attack and major resolve still applies. And when it comes to wasted magicka I would argue that more magicka was wasted in the game on failed reveal attempts than on succesfull ones. Detect abilities suck big time considering nightblade's mobility.

Like I already said You can cast streak and get completly nothing but You will never cast cloak and get completly nothing. And if that's not enough You get something even for just slotting cloak.

And if we are talking about skill issues there is no bigger skill issue than nightblade in U41 having any problems with sources of detection. Dying because of sources of detection is propably the biggest skill issue in the game considering how stacked nb currently is with different tools allowing him to survive out of cloak.

Yes because peoples problem with Cloak is that it activated your passives...

Literally skill issue.

Streak is the best skill in the game and it's not even close.
Every cast is a guaranteed teleport, damage and CC. If you are casting it at the wrong time that's a you issue.

And since they FINALLY added the detect icon on people using the potions, a NB casting cloak next to someone with a defect is a skill issue too. But there are other things you can't predict like AoE spam etc which will cause you to cast cloak and get zero invisibility which makes cloak useless.

I would reccomend You to read more carefully what I wrote.

So You did not answer my question and just continue with repeating the same phrase "skill issue"? That seems like a skill issuie with formulating arguments. Which is understandable considering that arguments defensing nb in this patch are hard to make.

Streak is definietly a strong ability but is it the best? Like was ZoS forced to continously buff sources of streak counters and create new ones just to deal with increasing strenght of sorc? Because that is what's happening with nb and cloak, ZoS is continously improving sources of detection just to keep up with how broken nb with cloak is lately and it's still not enough since nb is getting even stronger with each patch while already sitting at the top. ZoS didn't even had to create direct streak counters. For streak to get less effective ZoS had to just improve player's mobility which wasnt even a change that was targeted at streak.

Going with Your logic cloak is also a guaranteed invisibility because " If you are casting it at the wrong time that's a you issue."You can't predict AoE etc? "That's a You issue". I would really reccomend You to read my initial post few more times because You completly missed the point of it.

Also I partially agree with what was said by someone earlier in this thread. Comparing streak and cloak 1 on 1 does not provide the full picture. They don't exist in a vaccum, they're parts of class kits and nb class kit is right now the most overloaded in the game which empowers strenght of cloak. Also streak actually have built in drawback which is a ramping cost where nb lack any built in drawbacks and cloak alone helps nb with fighting drawbacks on other things like dodge roll ramping cost. ESO is propably one of the most forgiving MMORPG games when it comes to stealth playstyles since lots of other titles knowing full well how adventageous it is to have acces to invisibility puts built in drawbacks directly on it.

Stealth playstyle in ESO is basically shaping whole PvP not necessarily in the positive way. IC is a dead place for majority of time and when You ask people why they don't go there one of the most repeated answers will be "because of nb ganks". Many people especially nightblades complain about tank meta but when You ask tanky people why they build such a tankiness one of the most repeated answers will be "because of nightblade ganks". And nightblade ganks are possible because of cloak. Streak is nowhere near of being so influencial. And seeing answers like that combined with statistics from addons showing that almost 30% of PvP population right now are nightblades, it's hard not to draw a conclusion that one of the reasons that this game's PvP failed despite having a massive potential is a broken design behind cloak and nb stealth playstyle.

edward_frigidhands

They would need to apply substantial buffs to justify that kind of adjustment.

Galeriano2

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

They would need to apply substantial buffs to justify that kind of adjustment.

They already did.

daim

A 10 year old skill is suddenly annoying for players. Outrageous! Nerf it! (again).

Zabulus

hesobad wrote: »

I know NBs are the ones favored by ZOS but its very ridiculous that just about everything has a ramping cost except for Shadowy Disguise. Streak: ramping cost, roll dodge ramping cost but something that makes you go completely invisible and guarantees a crit.... no ramping cost! Like this game just blows my mind, why are they even paying people to balance this game?

Simple : because if you can't beat a nightblade 1v1 you're a beginner at pvp . That's all.

DrNukenstein

Complaining about 1 guaranteed crit for one hit which might not even be the skill, when 50% crit resist is basically a given...

Galeriano2

Zabulus wrote: »

hesobad wrote: »

I know NBs are the ones favored by ZOS but its very ridiculous that just about everything has a ramping cost except for Shadowy Disguise. Streak: ramping cost, roll dodge ramping cost but something that makes you go completely invisible and guarantees a crit.... no ramping cost! Like this game just blows my mind, why are they even paying people to balance this game?

Simple : because if you can't beat a nightblade 1v1 you're a beginner at pvp . That's all.

If You can't win or draw in 1v1 as a nightblade than You're a beginner at PvP. Dying as a nightblade in a 1v1 is a skill issue. That's all.

DrSlaughtr

I stopped playing for 2 years until 2 weeks ago. It's heart warming to see there are still arguments between streak and cloak.

Truth is, they have nothing to do with one another and it's all about one-upmanship. "If you're going to complain about this, then what about that."

Meanwhile it took me 2 weeks to realize detect pot is now essentially 50 meters lol. I kept wondering why th players were running clear across a battlefield to find me all by my lonesome watching from afar.

Basically, if you can't be bothered to run detect, then that's on you. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get baited into a battle with a sorc streaker, then that's also on you. Neither of these are the real issue with PVP, and it's funny because the real issue with PVP is the same as when I stopped playing before: tanks.

Galeriano2

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I stopped playing for 2 years until 2 weeks ago. It's heart warming to see there are still arguments between streak and cloak.

Truth is, they have nothing to do with one another and it's all about one-upmanship. "If you're going to complain about this, then what about that."

Meanwhile it took me 2 weeks to realize detect pot is now essentially 50 meters lol. I kept wondering why th players were running clear across a battlefield to find me all by my lonesome watching from afar.

Basically, if you can't be bothered to run detect, then that's on you. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get baited into a battle with a sorc streaker, then that's also on you. Neither of these are the real issue with PVP, and it's funny because the real issue with PVP is the same as when I stopped playing before: tanks.

Maybe it would took You less time to figure out that detect potions now have longer detect distance if nightblade wouldn't be overbuffed to the point where other players detecting him are now way less of an issue than they were in the past. 20 meters detect potions few years ago were stronger than 43 meters detect pots right now due to how much buffs nightblade recived in the mobility, evasiveness, sustain and survivability areas.

Running detection pots these days is basically nerfing Yourself because any nightblade player who knows basics of playing his class will be able to easily survive detection window when on the other hand using detection potion is a noticable sacrifice for its user in areas like sustain or damage. Only extreme noob nbs these days are reliably dying because of detect pots and the only reason detect pot is worth using is the fact that b still has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class among all 7 classes..

it's funny that You claim that main issue in PvP is tanks when in reality if You ask said tanks why they're building so tanky then one of the most repeated answers will be something along the lines of "because of nightblades ganks" or "because I don't want to be one shotted out of knowhere by a nb" etc. If we want to see less tanks than nerfing nightblades especially in the stealth playstyle area is one of the ways to achieve that.

fred4

Galeriano2 wrote: »

...due to how much buffs nightblade recived in the mobility, evasiveness, sustain and survivability areas in the meantime.

I agree on survivability, but I don't agree that NB has received buffs in mobility, evasiveness or cloak sustain (sustain in general, perhaps).

In regards to mobility, my NB has been at or near the speed cap ever since I started PvPing with her in 2016. Concealed Weapon had a unique, stacking 25% speed buff back then for one thing. If you refer to Race Against Time, yes that was a boon to magblades, but more so for ease of theory-crafting. Forward Momentum offered 8s of root / snare immunity in the past - it was actually stronger than anything we have now - while Major Expedition was always available to bow users and attached to more NB skills than Path.

Evasiveness: Shadow Image hasn't fundamentally changed, nor has the speed buff from from dodging with a bow since forever. So what are you referring to? Exact mechanics have changed, but it was always possible to be at speed cap, at least since Swift jewelry came out. Arguably all characters are faster on average today, bumping up against the cap more easily. It's actually more difficult to stand out as being super fast.

So I don't know what you're referring to. Is it the Cloak mechanic tidyup that happend somewhere around ... was it the infamous U35 patch? Sure, Hurricane no longer uncloaks you, but detection skills were buffed. Since then, new bugs have crept (back) into the game that uncloak you, such as Structured Entropy.

In regard specifically to cloak sustain, I think the recent Siphoning Attacks / Leeching Strikes change is a very ambiguous one, if that's what you're thinking of. It's basically better combat sustain. As a cloak sustain tool, it's arguably a nerf. I could previously recast Siphoning Attacks in cloak to help sustain that skill. Now I lose health, if I do so. In most cases I can't recover that health quickly without uncloaking. If I was a ganker who wants to sacrifice health for power, I might welcome that, but for other playstyles it's not great.

Galeriano2

fred4 wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

...due to how much buffs nightblade recived in the mobility, evasiveness, sustain and survivability areas in the meantime.

I agree on survivability, but I don't agree that NB has received buffs in mobility, evasiveness or cloak sustain (sustain in general, perhaps).

In regards to mobility, my NB has been at or near the speed cap ever since I started PvPing with her in 2016. Concealed Weapon had a unique, stacking 25% speed buff back then for one thing. If you refer to Race Against Time, yes that was a boon to magblades, but more so for ease of theory-crafting. Forward Momentum offered 8s of root / snare immunity in the past - it was actually stronger than anything we have now - while Major Expedition was always available to bow users and attached to more NB skills than Path.

Evasiveness: Shadow Image hasn't fundamentally changed, nor has the speed buff from from dodging with a bow since forever. So what are you referring to? Exact mechanics have changed, but it was always possible to be at speed cap, at least since Swift jewelry came out. Arguably all characters are faster on average today, bumping up against the cap more easily. It's actually more difficult to stand out as being super fast.

So I don't know what you're referring to. Is it the Cloak mechanic tidyup that happend somewhere around ... was it the infamous U35 patch? Sure, Hurricane no longer uncloaks you, but detection skills were buffed. Since then, new bugs have crept (back) into the game that uncloak you, such as Structured Entropy.

In regard specifically to cloak sustain, I think the recent Siphoning Attacks / Leeching Strikes change is a very ambiguous one, if that's what you're thinking of. It's basically better combat sustain. As a cloak sustain tool, it's arguably a nerf. I could previously recast Siphoning Attacks in cloak to help sustain that skill. Now I lose health, if I do so. In most cases I can't recover that health quickly without uncloaking. If I was a ganker who wants to sacrifice health for power, I might welcome that, but for other playstyles it's not great.

Concealed weapon was giving 25% speed buff only when hidden and only on a bar You had it slotted. Now it gives 15% speed buff that works on both bars and also outside of stealth. This is a buff to mobility. You can still reach speed cap but now also outside of cloak and no matter what skill bar You're on. Forward momentum was a universally available skill so I don't see how it's a nb specific nerf.

Shadow image went from being able to place shade whenever and whereever You want is a fundamental change and a massive buff. It also recived plenty of smaller but still usefull changes like small duration incrtease, teleporting directly at shade rather than in front of it which helped with some stucking issues and being able to use teleport when falling even from really high heights. Nb also recived snare/immobilize removal to phantasmal escape plus dodge cost reduction when taking direct damage allowing him to dodge more when dodge+cloak already had very strong synergy.

I wasn't talking about cloak sustain but sustain in general but still You can have near infinite sustain while in cloak without uncloaking Yourself. Siphoning attacks heath cost does not kick You out of cloak so You just need a heal that also doesn't kick You out of cloak like rally for example. You can weave clok+siphoning attacks+rally infinitely. Worst case scenario You can just use 2x siphoning attacks and than healthy offering which will restore amount of HP You lost but when You become visible once again You will be having more resources than when You had while entering cloak. There are also tricks like proper use of lefthander mythic. Properly used siphoning attacks is just straight broken both inside and outside of cloak.

These are just some of the buffs nightblade recived during last couple of years and they are just a few out of many.

DrSlaughtr

Galeriano2 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I stopped playing for 2 years until 2 weeks ago. It's heart warming to see there are still arguments between streak and cloak.

Truth is, they have nothing to do with one another and it's all about one-upmanship. "If you're going to complain about this, then what about that."

Meanwhile it took me 2 weeks to realize detect pot is now essentially 50 meters lol. I kept wondering why th players were running clear across a battlefield to find me all by my lonesome watching from afar.

Basically, if you can't be bothered to run detect, then that's on you. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get baited into a battle with a sorc streaker, then that's also on you. Neither of these are the real issue with PVP, and it's funny because the real issue with PVP is the same as when I stopped playing before: tanks.

Maybe it would took You less time to figure out that detect potions now have longer detect distance if nightblade wouldn't be overbuffed to the point where other players detecting him are now way less of an issue than they were in the past. 20 meters detect potions few years ago were stronger than 43 meters detect pots right now due to how much buffs nightblade recived in the mobility, evasiveness, sustain and survivability areas.

Running detection pots these days is basically nerfing Yourself because any nightblade player who knows basics of playing his class will be able to easily survive detection window when on the other hand using detection potion is a noticable sacrifice for its user in areas like sustain or damage. Only extreme noob nbs these days are reliably dying because of detect pots and the only reason detect pot is worth using is the fact that b still has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class among all 7 classes..

it's funny that You claim that main issue in PvP is tanks when in reality if You ask said tanks why they're building so tanky then one of the most repeated answers will be something along the lines of "because of nightblades ganks" or "because I don't want to be one shotted out of knowhere by a nb" etc. If we want to see less tanks than nerfing nightblades especially in the stealth playstyle area is one of the ways to achieve that.

I appreciate your reply. Here is my counter.

1. You have nearly 50 meters of detect radius and it lasts for 15 seconds. From what I gather, your argument is that because you are detecting people from so ridiculously far away, they can move out of your radius before you reach them. Well, I don't know what to say about that. That's like saying you can go to an all-you-can-eat buffet and eat as much as you want, but you're salty because you can't take home another plate of food.

2. Do the same thing everyone else has to do: work together with players so you're not the only one running detect.

3. Yes, you are sacrificing for having the OP detect radius, vs the small resource cost of a spammable detect skill with a lower radius and shorter length of time. Everything should have a cost that matches the effect. Completely negating the most important survival skill of a core gameplay style shouldn't be easy or cheap.

4. The main issue is tanks. Specifically 60k tank healers, and 40k tank DDs that can output as much burst as a 26k pure DD. Your "solution" to killing nightblades will have zero affect on the number of tank players, because as you point out, players who favor that playstyle are allergic to dying in a PVP game, and they'd rather have 10 minute battles around towers without being inconvenienced by an unexpected attack. Even if you delete nightblades from the game altogether, which I know would be the dream for a small but loud contingent of players, you would still have people mad about dying to a sorc, or a templar, or a DK, or a Necro, etc etc etc. Dying is the problem for those players. If it isn't a NB killing them, it's another class.

5. If "nightblade has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class" and you can't kill them, then what does that say about the person who can't manage to catch and kill a noob with 10k resistances? No skill in the game can be simply nullified with a potion or skills other than cloak. I suggest asking more experienced players for tips on killing NBs. It isn't hard. I do it all the time.

Galeriano2

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I stopped playing for 2 years until 2 weeks ago. It's heart warming to see there are still arguments between streak and cloak.

Truth is, they have nothing to do with one another and it's all about one-upmanship. "If you're going to complain about this, then what about that."

Meanwhile it took me 2 weeks to realize detect pot is now essentially 50 meters lol. I kept wondering why th players were running clear across a battlefield to find me all by my lonesome watching from afar.

Basically, if you can't be bothered to run detect, then that's on you. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get baited into a battle with a sorc streaker, then that's also on you. Neither of these are the real issue with PVP, and it's funny because the real issue with PVP is the same as when I stopped playing before: tanks.

Maybe it would took You less time to figure out that detect potions now have longer detect distance if nightblade wouldn't be overbuffed to the point where other players detecting him are now way less of an issue than they were in the past. 20 meters detect potions few years ago were stronger than 43 meters detect pots right now due to how much buffs nightblade recived in the mobility, evasiveness, sustain and survivability areas.

Running detection pots these days is basically nerfing Yourself because any nightblade player who knows basics of playing his class will be able to easily survive detection window when on the other hand using detection potion is a noticable sacrifice for its user in areas like sustain or damage. Only extreme noob nbs these days are reliably dying because of detect pots and the only reason detect pot is worth using is the fact that b still has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class among all 7 classes..

it's funny that You claim that main issue in PvP is tanks when in reality if You ask said tanks why they're building so tanky then one of the most repeated answers will be something along the lines of "because of nightblades ganks" or "because I don't want to be one shotted out of knowhere by a nb" etc. If we want to see less tanks than nerfing nightblades especially in the stealth playstyle area is one of the ways to achieve that.

I appreciate your reply. Here is my counter.

1. You have nearly 50 meters of detect radius and it lasts for 15 seconds. From what I gather, your argument is that because you are detecting people from so ridiculously far away, they can move out of your radius before you reach them. Well, I don't know what to say about that. That's like saying you can go to an all-you-can-eat buffet and eat as much as you want, but you're salty because you can't take home another plate of food.

2. Do the same thing everyone else has to do: work together with players so you're not the only one running detect.

3. Yes, you are sacrificing for having the OP detect radius, vs the small resource cost of a spammable detect skill with a lower radius and shorter length of time. Everything should have a cost that matches the effect. Completely negating the most important survival skill of a core gameplay style shouldn't be easy or cheap.

4. The main issue is tanks. Specifically 60k tank healers, and 40k tank DDs that can output as much burst as a 26k pure DD. Your "solution" to killing nightblades will have zero affect on the number of tank players, because as you point out, players who favor that playstyle are allergic to dying in a PVP game, and they'd rather have 10 minute battles around towers without being inconvenienced by an unexpected attack. Even if you delete nightblades from the game altogether, which I know would be the dream for a small but loud contingent of players, you would still have people mad about dying to a sorc, or a templar, or a DK, or a Necro, etc etc etc. Dying is the problem for those players. If it isn't a NB killing them, it's another class.

5. If "nightblade has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class" and you can't kill them, then what does that say about the person who can't manage to catch and kill a noob with 10k resistances? No skill in the game can be simply nullified with a potion or skills other than cloak. I suggest asking more experienced players for tips on killing NBs. It isn't hard. I do it all the time.

1. You gather my argument incorrectly. Thing with nb is that class recived so many buffs to sustain, mobility, evasiveness and survivability that it's really not hard for any nb who have basic understanding of the class to easily deal with the fact he was detected. They don't need to move out of detect radius they just can shug off the fact they've been detected with plethora of other tools class currently have. When detection pot had 20 meters radius nb had less tools to deal with the fact he was being detected now class became so overbuffed that ZoS had to add major savagery/prophecy to cloak for slotting it to make it desirable once again because at some point many nightblades started to not use cloak and slot something else in it's place usually a camo hunter for crit buffs simply because nightblade right now have so much defense that decent players that are not gank playstyle fans can easily 1vX without cloak.

2. Ah so the most reliable way You reccomend to deal with nightblade is coordinated Xv1? That completly doesn't sound like class is an issue...

3. Like I said that detect radius means nothing for any nb who have basic understanding of the class. Detect skills are actually pretty expensive, last for short period of time and with nb's mobility very often 1 second of GCD it takes to cast it after some other ability is enough for nb to be already outside of detect radius. It's not a coincidence ZoS has to continously buff these abilities and add more and more passive effects to them just to make them worth slotting but every time they do it nightblade is already strong enough to deal with said abilities pretty easily. If everything should have a cost that matches the effect than cloak is definietly way too hceap for what it provides. If You think cloak is the most important survival skill of nightblade than You are really 2 years behind. These days You can even 1vX without using cloak once.

4. Plenty of these tanks would still lower their HP if nightblade wouldn't be as overbuffed as it is currently. It's no coiuncidence that for example average warden tank healer went from 35-40k HP to 45-50k+ HP suprisingly in the same time nightblade was getting massive buffs. Players that are allergic to dying in PvP will usually adjust their defenses around the biggest threats they can face in PvP and that threats are usually nightblade gankers. You may claim that massive raise in tankiness in last years and increase of nb's power and population in the same time period are just coincidences but I claim, they're not. People just had to adjust to increased population of nightbaldes and the fact even noob nb today can dish out more damage just by spamming 1-2 buttons than experienced nightblade in the past was doing with perfectly timed combo.

5. I never said I can't kill them. Nightblade is the class I usually kill the most. That is due to a reason it have the highest population in the game (currently reaching almost 30%) and among that population there is the highest population of noobs. That being said noob nb is still many times stronger than noob on any other class. The same person that is capable of being a threat on a nb in open PvP or BGs would more often than not be completly useless on any other class. Nightblade is simply a carry class at this point, a carry class that pretty much ruins the PvP balance and makes PvP in ESO unpopular. IC is a dead place and if You ask people why they don't come there very often nightblades will be mentioned as one of the reasons. Since few patches nightblade population is going up when general PvP population is droping which basically suggest that people often either roll on nb or leave PvP because don't like that playstyle.

Like it or not nightblade requires tuning down.

DrSlaughtr

Galeriano2 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I stopped playing for 2 years until 2 weeks ago. It's heart warming to see there are still arguments between streak and cloak.

Truth is, they have nothing to do with one another and it's all about one-upmanship. "If you're going to complain about this, then what about that."

Meanwhile it took me 2 weeks to realize detect pot is now essentially 50 meters lol. I kept wondering why th players were running clear across a battlefield to find me all by my lonesome watching from afar.

Basically, if you can't be bothered to run detect, then that's on you. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get baited into a battle with a sorc streaker, then that's also on you. Neither of these are the real issue with PVP, and it's funny because the real issue with PVP is the same as when I stopped playing before: tanks.

Maybe it would took You less time to figure out that detect potions now have longer detect distance if nightblade wouldn't be overbuffed to the point where other players detecting him are now way less of an issue than they were in the past. 20 meters detect potions few years ago were stronger than 43 meters detect pots right now due to how much buffs nightblade recived in the mobility, evasiveness, sustain and survivability areas.

Running detection pots these days is basically nerfing Yourself because any nightblade player who knows basics of playing his class will be able to easily survive detection window when on the other hand using detection potion is a noticable sacrifice for its user in areas like sustain or damage. Only extreme noob nbs these days are reliably dying because of detect pots and the only reason detect pot is worth using is the fact that b still has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class among all 7 classes..

it's funny that You claim that main issue in PvP is tanks when in reality if You ask said tanks why they're building so tanky then one of the most repeated answers will be something along the lines of "because of nightblades ganks" or "because I don't want to be one shotted out of knowhere by a nb" etc. If we want to see less tanks than nerfing nightblades especially in the stealth playstyle area is one of the ways to achieve that.

I appreciate your reply. Here is my counter.

1. You have nearly 50 meters of detect radius and it lasts for 15 seconds. From what I gather, your argument is that because you are detecting people from so ridiculously far away, they can move out of your radius before you reach them. Well, I don't know what to say about that. That's like saying you can go to an all-you-can-eat buffet and eat as much as you want, but you're salty because you can't take home another plate of food.

2. Do the same thing everyone else has to do: work together with players so you're not the only one running detect.

3. Yes, you are sacrificing for having the OP detect radius, vs the small resource cost of a spammable detect skill with a lower radius and shorter length of time. Everything should have a cost that matches the effect. Completely negating the most important survival skill of a core gameplay style shouldn't be easy or cheap.

4. The main issue is tanks. Specifically 60k tank healers, and 40k tank DDs that can output as much burst as a 26k pure DD. Your "solution" to killing nightblades will have zero affect on the number of tank players, because as you point out, players who favor that playstyle are allergic to dying in a PVP game, and they'd rather have 10 minute battles around towers without being inconvenienced by an unexpected attack. Even if you delete nightblades from the game altogether, which I know would be the dream for a small but loud contingent of players, you would still have people mad about dying to a sorc, or a templar, or a DK, or a Necro, etc etc etc. Dying is the problem for those players. If it isn't a NB killing them, it's another class.

5. If "nightblade has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class" and you can't kill them, then what does that say about the person who can't manage to catch and kill a noob with 10k resistances? No skill in the game can be simply nullified with a potion or skills other than cloak. I suggest asking more experienced players for tips on killing NBs. It isn't hard. I do it all the time.

1. You gather my argument incorrectly. Thing with nb is that class recived so many buffs to sustain, mobility, evasiveness and survivability that it's really not hard for any nb who have basic understanding of the class to easily deal with the fact he was detected. They don't need to move out of detect radius they just can shug off the fact they've been detected with plethora of other tools class currently have. When detection pot had 20 meters radius nb had less tools to deal with the fact he was being detected now class became so overbuffed that ZoS had to add major savagery/prophecy to cloak for slotting it to make it desirable once again because at some point many nightblades started to not use cloak and slot something else in it's place usually a camo hunter for crit buffs simply because nightblade right now have so much defense that decent players that are not gank playstyle fans can easily 1vX without cloak.

2. Ah so the most reliable way You reccomend to deal with nightblade is coordinated Xv1? That completly doesn't sound like class is an issue...

3. Like I said that detect radius means nothing for any nb who have basic understanding of the class. Detect skills are actually pretty expensive, last for short period of time and with nb's mobility very often 1 second of GCD it takes to cast it after some other ability is enough for nb to be already outside of detect radius. It's not a coincidence ZoS has to continously buff these abilities and add more and more passive effects to them just to make them worth slotting but every time they do it nightblade is already strong enough to deal with said abilities pretty easily. If everything should have a cost that matches the effect than cloak is definietly way too hceap for what it provides. If You think cloak is the most important survival skill of nightblade than You are really 2 years behind. These days You can even 1vX without using cloak once.

4. Plenty of these tanks would still lower their HP if nightblade wouldn't be as overbuffed as it is currently. It's no coiuncidence that for example average warden tank healer went from 35-40k HP to 45-50k+ HP suprisingly in the same time nightblade was getting massive buffs. Players that are allergic to dying in PvP will usually adjust their defenses around the biggest threats they can face in PvP and that threats are usually nightblade gankers. You may claim that massive raise in tankiness in last years and increase of nb's power and population in the same time period are just coincidences but I claim, they're not. People just had to adjust to increased population of nightbaldes and the fact even noob nb today can dish out more damage just by spamming 1-2 buttons than experienced nightblade in the past was doing with perfectly timed combo.

5. I never said I can't kill them. Nightblade is the class I usually kill the most. That is due to a reason it have the highest population in the game (currently reaching almost 30%) and among that population there is the highest population of noobs. That being said noob nb is still many times stronger than noob on any other class. The same person that is capable of being a threat on a nb in open PvP or BGs would more often than not be completly useless on any other class. Nightblade is simply a carry class at this point, a carry class that pretty much ruins the PvP balance and makes PvP in ESO unpopular. IC is a dead place and if You ask people why they don't come there very often nightblades will be mentioned as one of the reasons. Since few patches nightblade population is going up when general PvP population is droping which basically suggest that people often either roll on nb or leave PvP because don't like that playstyle.

Like it or not nightblade requires tuning down.

C'mon, man.

1. NBs for years, going all the way back, had the worst sustain out of the box. Stop being silly. I don't know what adding prophecy/savagery to cloak has to do with sustain. I still slot camo hunter for minor berserk and in case I'm still on potion cooldown. I'm sure a lot of people don't bother running that or inner light anymore, so if your argument is "they got an extra skill slot now" well, okay. But I could list all the free buffs other classes get. For example, Warden has a free-to-cast skill that gives Major Brutality and Sorcery AND restores a LARGE amount of either stamina or magicka. Free to cast.

I'm not sure what these "defenses" you're referring to. Healing? Every class can heal. Resources? DK, Warden and Sorc all have better sustain. I don't play Arcanist so not sure about that. Sorcs can get away faster than any NB can run and they have more survivability than a gank. Maybe you're talking about the tankier NB builds? If so, see my original statement about tanks.

2. I see Sorcs leading 20 people around a keep. But okay, complain about having to work with another person to kill a player.

3. Again, 15 seconds, which is half your cooldown, and 47.5 meters. If you can't capitalize on this, then you need to rethink your strategy. I'm glad we agree that cloak isn't the most important survival skill for NB.

4. Why would a tank with 35 to 40k health lower their health if they are doing enough damage to kill people? They wouldn't. People run high health, high resistances because they can use one damage set and get plenty of burst.

5. It's the class you usually kill most but you're arguing that they are too hard to kill, even though they are mostly played by "noobs." Your logic makes no sense. IC is dead because the only people who try to go there outside of events are questers, and they don't know how to properly run IC. It's boring. All you have to do is get your 1000 Tel-Var, port to Cyrodiil, then port back to IC and go get another 1k. The people who complain about IC are questers who want to just run around and never get attacked. Sorry, that's not the game.

Have a lovely day.

StaticWave

Sorc is on par, if not better than NB right now, unironically. I dropped Streak altogether and opted for movement speed because I'm so tanky. I'm basically a NB right now lol.

Both Cloak and Streak need to be nerfed if we want to keep the current iteration of Sorc and NB. It's so unfair for other classes that the 2 most mobile and elusive classes in the game are also two of the tankiest.

HowlKimchi

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc is on par, if not better than NB right now, unironically. I dropped Streak altogether and opted for movement speed because I'm so tanky. I'm basically a NB right now lol.

Both Cloak and Streak need to be nerfed if we want to keep the current iteration of Sorc and NB. It's so unfair for other classes that the 2 most mobile and elusive classes in the game are also two of the tankiest.

I'd prefer it if cloak and streak aren't touched. Healthy offering and Hardened ward on the other hand...

JanTanhide

Besides the PVP aspect of Cloak it is widely used by PVE players for stealth killing, stealing, etc. Having it ramp up the cost to scoot around town cloaked will remove the fun factor from Nightblade builds for this.

DrNukenstein

I think most players who play the class and play against it would rather have a ramping health cost or cast time on offering, and a ramping cost on siphoning attacks.

Available cloak is in line with the sneaky assassin power fantasy. Braindead sustain and full heals is not, but should be available to a more limited degree than other classes since that's just how the game is today.

Galeriano2

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I think most players who play the class and play against it would rather have a ramping health cost or cast time on offering, and a ramping cost on siphoning attacks.

Available cloak is in line with the sneaky assassin power fantasy. Braindead sustain and full heals is not, but should be available to a more limited degree than other classes since that's just how the game is today.

Simpliest solution would be just making healthy offering DoT to last longer, tick more frequently but for less dmg. You would be able to spam it as reliable source of healing but You would have to deal with the fact it heavily limits Your cloaking by kicking You out of cloak like every 0,5 second for 6 seconds.

Galeriano2

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I stopped playing for 2 years until 2 weeks ago. It's heart warming to see there are still arguments between streak and cloak.

Truth is, they have nothing to do with one another and it's all about one-upmanship. "If you're going to complain about this, then what about that."

Meanwhile it took me 2 weeks to realize detect pot is now essentially 50 meters lol. I kept wondering why th players were running clear across a battlefield to find me all by my lonesome watching from afar.

Basically, if you can't be bothered to run detect, then that's on you. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get baited into a battle with a sorc streaker, then that's also on you. Neither of these are the real issue with PVP, and it's funny because the real issue with PVP is the same as when I stopped playing before: tanks.

Maybe it would took You less time to figure out that detect potions now have longer detect distance if nightblade wouldn't be overbuffed to the point where other players detecting him are now way less of an issue than they were in the past. 20 meters detect potions few years ago were stronger than 43 meters detect pots right now due to how much buffs nightblade recived in the mobility, evasiveness, sustain and survivability areas.

Running detection pots these days is basically nerfing Yourself because any nightblade player who knows basics of playing his class will be able to easily survive detection window when on the other hand using detection potion is a noticable sacrifice for its user in areas like sustain or damage. Only extreme noob nbs these days are reliably dying because of detect pots and the only reason detect pot is worth using is the fact that b still has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class among all 7 classes..

it's funny that You claim that main issue in PvP is tanks when in reality if You ask said tanks why they're building so tanky then one of the most repeated answers will be something along the lines of "because of nightblades ganks" or "because I don't want to be one shotted out of knowhere by a nb" etc. If we want to see less tanks than nerfing nightblades especially in the stealth playstyle area is one of the ways to achieve that.

I appreciate your reply. Here is my counter.

1. You have nearly 50 meters of detect radius and it lasts for 15 seconds. From what I gather, your argument is that because you are detecting people from so ridiculously far away, they can move out of your radius before you reach them. Well, I don't know what to say about that. That's like saying you can go to an all-you-can-eat buffet and eat as much as you want, but you're salty because you can't take home another plate of food.

2. Do the same thing everyone else has to do: work together with players so you're not the only one running detect.

3. Yes, you are sacrificing for having the OP detect radius, vs the small resource cost of a spammable detect skill with a lower radius and shorter length of time. Everything should have a cost that matches the effect. Completely negating the most important survival skill of a core gameplay style shouldn't be easy or cheap.

4. The main issue is tanks. Specifically 60k tank healers, and 40k tank DDs that can output as much burst as a 26k pure DD. Your "solution" to killing nightblades will have zero affect on the number of tank players, because as you point out, players who favor that playstyle are allergic to dying in a PVP game, and they'd rather have 10 minute battles around towers without being inconvenienced by an unexpected attack. Even if you delete nightblades from the game altogether, which I know would be the dream for a small but loud contingent of players, you would still have people mad about dying to a sorc, or a templar, or a DK, or a Necro, etc etc etc. Dying is the problem for those players. If it isn't a NB killing them, it's another class.

5. If "nightblade has the biggest amount of noobs playing the class" and you can't kill them, then what does that say about the person who can't manage to catch and kill a noob with 10k resistances? No skill in the game can be simply nullified with a potion or skills other than cloak. I suggest asking more experienced players for tips on killing NBs. It isn't hard. I do it all the time.

1. You gather my argument incorrectly. Thing with nb is that class recived so many buffs to sustain, mobility, evasiveness and survivability that it's really not hard for any nb who have basic understanding of the class to easily deal with the fact he was detected. They don't need to move out of detect radius they just can shug off the fact they've been detected with plethora of other tools class currently have. When detection pot had 20 meters radius nb had less tools to deal with the fact he was being detected now class became so overbuffed that ZoS had to add major savagery/prophecy to cloak for slotting it to make it desirable once again because at some point many nightblades started to not use cloak and slot something else in it's place usually a camo hunter for crit buffs simply because nightblade right now have so much defense that decent players that are not gank playstyle fans can easily 1vX without cloak.

2. Ah so the most reliable way You reccomend to deal with nightblade is coordinated Xv1? That completly doesn't sound like class is an issue...

3. Like I said that detect radius means nothing for any nb who have basic understanding of the class. Detect skills are actually pretty expensive, last for short period of time and with nb's mobility very often 1 second of GCD it takes to cast it after some other ability is enough for nb to be already outside of detect radius. It's not a coincidence ZoS has to continously buff these abilities and add more and more passive effects to them just to make them worth slotting but every time they do it nightblade is already strong enough to deal with said abilities pretty easily. If everything should have a cost that matches the effect than cloak is definietly way too hceap for what it provides. If You think cloak is the most important survival skill of nightblade than You are really 2 years behind. These days You can even 1vX without using cloak once.

4. Plenty of these tanks would still lower their HP if nightblade wouldn't be as overbuffed as it is currently. It's no coiuncidence that for example average warden tank healer went from 35-40k HP to 45-50k+ HP suprisingly in the same time nightblade was getting massive buffs. Players that are allergic to dying in PvP will usually adjust their defenses around the biggest threats they can face in PvP and that threats are usually nightblade gankers. You may claim that massive raise in tankiness in last years and increase of nb's power and population in the same time period are just coincidences but I claim, they're not. People just had to adjust to increased population of nightbaldes and the fact even noob nb today can dish out more damage just by spamming 1-2 buttons than experienced nightblade in the past was doing with perfectly timed combo.

5. I never said I can't kill them. Nightblade is the class I usually kill the most. That is due to a reason it have the highest population in the game (currently reaching almost 30%) and among that population there is the highest population of noobs. That being said noob nb is still many times stronger than noob on any other class. The same person that is capable of being a threat on a nb in open PvP or BGs would more often than not be completly useless on any other class. Nightblade is simply a carry class at this point, a carry class that pretty much ruins the PvP balance and makes PvP in ESO unpopular. IC is a dead place and if You ask people why they don't come there very often nightblades will be mentioned as one of the reasons. Since few patches nightblade population is going up when general PvP population is droping which basically suggest that people often either roll on nb or leave PvP because don't like that playstyle.

Like it or not nightblade requires tuning down.

C'mon, man.

1. NBs for years, going all the way back, had the worst sustain out of the box. Stop being silly. I don't know what adding prophecy/savagery to cloak has to do with sustain. I still slot camo hunter for minor berserk and in case I'm still on potion cooldown. I'm sure a lot of people don't bother running that or inner light anymore, so if your argument is "they got an extra skill slot now" well, okay. But I could list all the free buffs other classes get. For example, Warden has a free-to-cast skill that gives Major Brutality and Sorcery AND restores a LARGE amount of either stamina or magicka. Free to cast.

I'm not sure what these "defenses" you're referring to. Healing? Every class can heal. Resources? DK, Warden and Sorc all have better sustain. I don't play Arcanist so not sure about that. Sorcs can get away faster than any NB can run and they have more survivability than a gank. Maybe you're talking about the tankier NB builds? If so, see my original statement about tanks.

2. I see Sorcs leading 20 people around a keep. But okay, complain about having to work with another person to kill a player.

3. Again, 15 seconds, which is half your cooldown, and 47.5 meters. If you can't capitalize on this, then you need to rethink your strategy. I'm glad we agree that cloak isn't the most important survival skill for NB.

4. Why would a tank with 35 to 40k health lower their health if they are doing enough damage to kill people? They wouldn't. People run high health, high resistances because they can use one damage set and get plenty of burst.

5. It's the class you usually kill most but you're arguing that they are too hard to kill, even though they are mostly played by "noobs." Your logic makes no sense. IC is dead because the only people who try to go there outside of events are questers, and they don't know how to properly run IC. It's boring. All you have to do is get your 1000 Tel-Var, port to Cyrodiil, then port back to IC and go get another 1k. The people who complain about IC are questers who want to just run around and never get attacked. Sorry, that's not the game.

Have a lovely day.

1. Nightblade always had decent levels of sustain when played properly. heavy attacks from sneak to off balanced targets and high regens and ability to deal with dodge penatly by entering cloak were massive adventages of the class. And right now with new siphoning attacks sustain became limitless. Claiming that nb have weak sustain is silly. Adding prophecy savagery have nothing to do with cloak sustain, read what I wrote more carefully than maybe You will understand what I had in mind when talking about savagery/prophecy added to cloak. If You want to name free to cast abilities on other classes that we can also mention that nb currently have 7 abilities that provide him with different usefull effects that work on both bars just for slotting them. These effects are : ulti charge on soul harvest, minor protection on dark cloak, major savagery/prophecy on shadowy discguise, healing while dealing dmg on both morphs of siphoning strikes, restoring resources while dealing dmg on siphoning attacks, minor expedition on concealed weapon, wep/spell dmg increase and spectral bow proc for light attacks on both grim focus morphs. And if You want to talk about netch than nb have leeching strikes which heal him passively and can also be used for free and will on average restore way more resources than netch. And siphoning attacks is just straight broken ability in terms of sustain when used properly.

2. Nightblade don't even need to lead that 20 people anywhere. Any time it's not completly open field he can take them and troll them endlesly. I know because I did. In terms of that mentioned sorc if there is like 1 or 2+ sorcs with 3 brain cells in that zerg that chases him he is done because these sorcs in zerg will not allow him to refresh but when nightblade is met by zerg even if that zerg have sources of detection nb still can survive that and troll them around with nice mobility, strong burst heal, strong evasiveness thanks to phantasmal escape and shadow image, borderline broken sustain with siphoning strikes and optional abusal of lefthander mythic which synergizes the best with nb due to his roll dodge cost reduction from phantasmal escape and option to wait out dodge cost penatly in cloak.

3.Again, almost unlimited sustain, cheap and strong burst heal, strong mobility and evasiveness. if You can't capitilize on this for 15 seconds than You need to rethink Your strategy. Nightblade just have so much other methods to survive that they started to make cloak optional.

4. Quite simple, to get even more damage or to improve in other areas they're lacking. And yes they would lower their health. Not all of them but it would be definietly noticable that meta became a bit less tanky. We actually saw this happening when nightblade got nerfed few years ago and for a moment people started to either lower their HP or stopped to increase it and than suprisingly and coincidentally HP increasing started once again around the time nightblade started to recive massive buffs to the point today it's really not that suprising to meet 50k HP players. What a wierd coincidence. Like it or not one of the reasons people built tanky is current state of nb. No matter how much ZoS will be nerfing tanks people will still rather sacrifice dmg than lower their defenses siimply because there is too much nb these days and there is too much nightblades because class got completly overbuffed. People simply don't like to die randomly to someone doing 2-3 clicks out of nowhere so those who can't deal with nightblades in other ways will just build more tankiness.

5. it's the class that makes like 25-30% of current PvP population so it's obvious it will be one of the most killed classes. it doesn't mean it's a weak class though, it just have the highest amount of extremly bad people who rolled on it simply because they wouldn't be able to do nearly as much as they can on nb on any other class. And even these bad players can still be deadly due to the fact how much they're carried by the class and sets that synergize with it. They will die less than they would on other classes and they will take someone with them more often. If someone was 2/10 player on other class and now is 4/10 on nb he is still bad but he basically doubled his effectiveness. IC is dead also because of nightblades. This class completly bypasses the whole idea of high risk high reward type of gameplay that developer wanted to implement in that area and many people is simply dissatisfied with it.

DrNukenstein

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Simpliest solution would be just making healthy offering DoT to last longer, tick more frequently but for less dmg. You would be able to spam it as reliable source of healing but You would have to deal with the fact it heavily limits Your cloaking by kicking You out of cloak like every 0,5 second for 6 seconds.

I'm saying make the health cost for offering actually hurt. Make the health cost scale with max health, and give it the health cost a ramping effect. Then give siphoning the same ramping cost streak/dodge/mist has since endlessly full healing and converting health to resources is MEGA OP. Then you have a class that can still do what it's been doing for most of the games life, but has reasonable tools for hanging out in fights.

For the record, the offering dot does not break cloak and should not.

Galeriano2

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Simpliest solution would be just making healthy offering DoT to last longer, tick more frequently but for less dmg. You would be able to spam it as reliable source of healing but You would have to deal with the fact it heavily limits Your cloaking by kicking You out of cloak like every 0,5 second for 6 seconds.

I'm saying make the health cost for offering actually hurt. Make the health cost scale with max health, and give it the health cost a ramping effect. Then give siphoning the same ramping cost streak/dodge/mist has since endlessly full healing and converting health to resources is MEGA OP. Then you have a class that can still do what it's been doing for most of the games life, but has reasonable tools for hanging out in fights.

For the record, the offering dot does not break cloak and should not.

I've forgot to mention healthy offering DoT should also break cloak as its new drawback.

Caecus0

I will be a fine with a ramping cost of Shadowy Disguise the moment they make it so NBs can reliably stay invisible and random stuff doesn't just pop them out.

As it stands, some DoTs will for some reason rip them out of invis, aoe skills will rip them out of invis, detection abilities will rip them and keep them out of invis, and of course the new detection potions will allow you to see invis targets from 40 yards away. At this point NBs are using it for the guaranteed crit and Major Savagery more than the Invis.