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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Beware the forums...
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Kiash✭✭✭You obviously haven't played many MMOs.... Mass tears can move mountains :P
If you say so. The "mass tears" regarding the very fundamentals of the game i.e.: the game's quest design, the game's world construction, the game's phasing aren't going to affect anything in any noticeable amount of time.
You're better of speaking with your wallet and walking away if you really hate it so much. They aren't going to re-envision anything in this game in any drastic manner until -at least- the first expansion.
Mass tears made them turn D3 into a good game from a debacle that wasn't worth the disks it was smeared on. I'd say official forums are a good place to get your voice heard and change games.
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d0e1ow✭✭✭✭Hi, all, OP here:
Thanks again for the person who got so miffed with me they decided to bump this thread.
Anyways, some clarification on my OP. I see a lot of people saying that whining does, in fact, help games or change them. I still hold my position that, no, it doesn't.
Whining is defined as such: "to complain in a feeble and petulant way." Being petulant on these forums, or any company own "dev-viewed" forum will get you nowhere.
Neither will being sarcastic, a jerk, a sycophant, are anything else of the sort. If you don't believe me, I'll happily screenshot how many messages the admins of this forum have sent me notifying me that my various posts have either been edited to death or just outright removed from sight.
What changes things for the better are well informed opinions given accurately, cogently, and sanely. In my experience, this is a rare kind of post that only a small, small fraction of the playerbase actually pulls off, because it not only requires a deep understanding of game systems and the flaws therein, but also skill with the pen.
If you'd like an example of such a post, Reddit or Tamriel Foundry has a few of them here and there, mostly scattered about. Recently Reddit had a big thread with a VR10's thoughts on the game. It was massively upvoted, very long, and you can tell the person has really spent time with the game. However the comment section was mostly just inane whining "at" ZOS.
If you'd like an example of something that the devs probably should throw in the trash-can, look at Angry Joe's "review".
Both of these people have major issues with the game, yet they present them in much different ways. One is compelling and though tinged with frustration presents itself in a clear way. The other is some guy making a video about his "feels" at level 20.
Of course, you're free to post whatever you like. As many people have noted, I don't seem to follow my own advice. This would be true. However what I do or don't do really doesn't matter to you at the end of the day does it? -You- can choose to post whatever you like here however you like.
The content of your post is going to decide whether or not it is taken seriously by the playerbase and/or by the devs. Remember: what appeals to the "feels" of the playerbase often is meaningless to the devs. People love to "complain in a petulant manner", yet such reactions can hardly be called feedback.
Have a fun day, everyone.
-d0e"Her mystery was as essential to her as savagery was to Boethiah or treachery was to Molag Bal. To understand Nocturnal is to negate her, to pull back the curtains cloaking her realm of darkness." - Sigillah Parate "Invocation of Azura"2 -
Greydog✭✭✭✭
QFE...I could not agree more.To be fair, @d0e1ow is correct. Not because his view of others opinions is valid ..but because dev's know that forum posters are the vocal minority in any game. Sometimes an issue will bring on a flood of players out of the game and into the forum. But the greater amount of threads are noted and set aside.
If you really want them to know your opinions you need to use the in-game /feedback tools ..and then yes, speak with your wallet when the time comes.
Vocal minority, eh? I suppose the President ignores the House of Representatives because by your definition, they're a vocal minority, right? Like there's a whole other mass of independent and unique issues being raised, considered, and resolved only through the in game submission medium. Puhleease.
I hope you're happy, you just made @keylargo dumber.
The House of Representatives are a body elected to represent the people. The president should listen to them but he doesn't because he thinks he's above needing to adhere to the constitution.
The people here are neither elected nor representative of anyone but themselves. Our numbers are far fewer than those who are in game and I would wager that a large portion of them give feeback "in-game" ..
I know I have given in game feedback for more issues than I have discussed here.
@keylargo My apologies if I have damaged any of your brain cells. I normally only do that to my own
Edited by Greydog on May 8, 2014 7:41PM"I Plan on living forever ..so far so good"
Sanguine's DiscipleAsylum Amoebaeus ..A refuge for those who normally fly solo.
Message me here or in game for an invite2 -
Kiash✭✭✭That's all fine and well, but whining and mass tears changed your favorite game (D3) into something people enjoy and play actively now.
I agree with you that constructive feedback is always more valuable than a whine or rant thread, but there are examples of mass whining and ranting changing games over every genre, so it's not exactly truthful to say it doesn't fix anything.
tl;dr:
Not endorsing whining but with Blizzard it got something done.1 -
d0e1ow✭✭✭✭That's all fine and well, but whining and mass tears changed your favorite game (D3) into something people enjoy and play actively now.
I agree with you that constructive feedback is always more valuable than a whine or rant thread, but there are examples of mass whining and ranting changing games over every genre, so it's not exactly truthful to say it doesn't fix anything.
tl;dr:
Not endorsing whining but with Blizzard it got something done.
YMMV. I think Diablo 3 is awful boring without a trading system to be frank. I think the entire game has become artificially prolonged in a meaningless way. That's not the place for us to discuss this though.
I'd say that Blizzard did a whole lot of surveying through people who actually quit the game. Blizzard has been known to send out big survey e-mails to people before they make big decisions and I'm fairly certain the Auction House was one such instance.
There were many posts over the course of those nearly 2 years that people brought forth very solid arguments against the Auction House and RMAH system. -For the most part- people offered no -valuable- feedback. Yes, anyone can say "I don't like this", but to actually offer a solution, or to offer valuable feedback as to "why" is beyond many people. I say that with the utmost confidence: most people do not know what they want or they are awful at articulating their feelings, especially via text. Most people just don't spend time writing in such a capacity.
So, Blizzard had quite a bit of survey feedback and several posters of some quality who started debates over the 2 years about why the AH system might be bad for the game. There were so few of them though that I could list them here by name. Blizzard did not view the feedback of XOXOPWND00DHXCXOXO as valuable feedback. The viewed as petulant whining or another customer (the majority) who are unable to articulate their emotions and reasoning.
"Her mystery was as essential to her as savagery was to Boethiah or treachery was to Molag Bal. To understand Nocturnal is to negate her, to pull back the curtains cloaking her realm of darkness." - Sigillah Parate "Invocation of Azura"2 -
Crumpy✭✭✭✭"The viewed as petulant whining or another customer (the majority) who are unable to articulate their emotions and reasoning."
Wow do you think you're something special....
I lyke not this quill.3 -
Kiash✭✭✭"The viewed as petulant whining or another customer (the majority) who are unable to articulate their emotions and reasoning."
Wow do you think you're something special....
Nah, he said he was guilty of whining from time to time, as we all are. Every single gamer on the planet has whined at one point or another on some official forum I believe heh.0 -
Gohlar✭✭✭✭If these companies weren't getting anything out of hosting forums, they wouldn't do it. It's that simple.1 -
kirnmalidus✭✭✭✭I'm confused... First you say we can't get them to change the game in the ways we want cause "ultimately the devs are going to do what they want when, they want, and how they want".
And then you advocate protest by speaking with our wallet?
Complaining on forums and withholding payment are completely different. You're trying to compare apples to llamas.Life of a Nightblade (Screenshot Tumblr)
“Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.”
- @ruze84b14_ESO0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Zenimax was monitoring external forums even before these forums were open. They definitely see value here for feed back.
There is nothing innately wrong with expressing ones thoughts on the forums. It only becomes a problem when all that is expressed is foot stomping, shouting, and demands rather than presenting a reasoned case. While I would say both are effective, both are not productive. A reasoned case will yield a reasoned response, but a nebulous case will only yield a nebulous response. If we just yell nerf x until they capitulate they will most likely nerf X, but why would there be any any expectation for the nerf to be accurate? Without adequate details what could it even be accurate too?Edited by Armitas on May 8, 2014 8:55PMRetired.
Nord mDK2 -
Greydog✭✭✭✭Zenimax was monitoring external forums even before these forums were open. They definitely see value here for feed back.
There is nothing innately wrong with expressing ones thoughts on the forums. It only becomes a problem when all that is expressed is foot stomping, shouting, and demands rather than presenting a reasoned case. While I would say both are effective, both are not productive. A reasoned case will yield a reasoned response, but nebulous case will only yield a nebulous response.
Agree ..and this Is the part that truly makes forums useful. It gives the opportunity to discuss at length the pros and cons of an issue.
While the in game feature allows for a greater number of individual responses, there is something to be said for the ability to discuss them.
"I Plan on living forever ..so far so good"
Sanguine's DiscipleAsylum Amoebaeus ..A refuge for those who normally fly solo.
Message me here or in game for an invite1 -
Does RoS have the same D3 skill trees or did they go back to the more robust D1/2 skill trees?0
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Crumpy✭✭✭✭I like all the whining and bitchin'! To me that's what real game forum is all about.I lyke not this quill.1
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Chirru✭✭✭✭the Original poster is 100% WRONG. People in the forums complain because there are real issues with the Game.
If I start a new Char and find more bots harvesting resources in the starter areas than I find players...then I have to conclude something is wrong.
and then there comes this poster and tells me stop whining about it? whom is he/she kidding. forum postings and online reviews are bad because there are sooo many issues that it is NOT funny any longer. The list is a mile long.
Yes, the above is drama because else no one is listening.
the game is good... the Problems are real problems and need to be shouted about, and no, I am not quitting the game because of the problems.
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Melian✭✭✭✭the Original poster is 100% WRONG. People in the forums complain because there are real issues with the Game.
If I start a new Char and find more bots harvesting resources in the starter areas than I find players...then I have to conclude something is wrong.
and then there comes this poster and tells me stop whining about it? whom is he/she kidding. forum postings and online reviews are bad because there are sooo many issues that it is NOT funny any longer. The list is a mile long.
Yes, the above is drama because else no one is listening.
the game is good... the Problems are real problems and need to be shouted about, and no, I am not quitting the game because of the problems.
What's wrong with making use of the in game /bug and /feedback tools?
Edited by Melian on May 8, 2014 10:25PM3 -
Csub✭✭✭✭✭
Like, they are both delicious? Okay, I can only speak of one of them from experience!kirnmalidus wrote: »I'm confused... First you say we can't get them to change the game in the ways we want cause "ultimately the devs are going to do what they want when, they want, and how they want".
And then you advocate protest by speaking with our wallet?
Complaining on forums and withholding payment are completely different. You're trying to compare apples to llamas.
"The Divines gave you a nose for a reason, Tharn. So you can keep your mouth shut and still keep breathing. - Lyris Titanborn0 -
Like, they are both delicious? Okay, I can only speak of one of them from experience!kirnmalidus wrote: »I'm confused... First you say we can't get them to change the game in the ways we want cause "ultimately the devs are going to do what they want when, they want, and how they want".
And then you advocate protest by speaking with our wallet?
Complaining on forums and withholding payment are completely different. You're trying to compare apples to llamas.
Indeed, I've heard of apples, but never had one.0 -
Nazon_Katts✭✭✭✭✭devolutedub17_ESO wrote: »
Like, they are both delicious? Okay, I can only speak of one of them from experience!kirnmalidus wrote: »I'm confused... First you say we can't get them to change the game in the ways we want cause "ultimately the devs are going to do what they want when, they want, and how they want".
And then you advocate protest by speaking with our wallet?
Complaining on forums and withholding payment are completely different. You're trying to compare apples to llamas.
Indeed, I've heard of apples, but never had one.
For your particular taste, may I suggest pie?
"You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"0 -
Greydog✭✭✭✭I like pie
"I Plan on living forever ..so far so good"
Sanguine's DiscipleAsylum Amoebaeus ..A refuge for those who normally fly solo.
Message me here or in game for an invite2 -
d0e1ow✭✭✭✭the Original poster is 100% WRONG. People in the forums complain because there are real issues with the Game.
If I start a new Char and find more bots harvesting resources in the starter areas than I find players...then I have to conclude something is wrong.
and then there comes this poster and tells me stop whining about it? whom is he/she kidding. forum postings and online reviews are bad because there are sooo many issues that it is NOT funny any longer. The list is a mile long.
Yes, the above is drama because else no one is listening.
the game is good... the Problems are real problems and need to be shouted about, and no, I am not quitting the game because of the problems.
Yet you've only proven my point as your post offers no new information and offers no solutions or any kind of constructive ideas.
All you've stated is that A. You're unhappy. B. The bots are an issue. C. The game has problems that need to be addressed. I will respond point by point.
A. No one can do anything about this but you.
B. Everyone knows this already.
C. Everyone knows this already. And furthermore, you've gone into literally -zero- detail as to what this "mile long list" of issues actually -are-, so there is no discussion to be had because we don't even know what individual issues you are drawing with the game in the first place.
So, effectively what you've done is simply stated the obvious and contributed nothing to the discussion in the way of solutions. They've acknowledged many of the issues already and are working on them. What more is there to say? If they aren't working fast enough for you, then come back at a later date.
If you'd like to be posting constructively, might I suggest starting up a thread on the forums outlining a player driven intiative to report bots, and find ways to foil their plans? (PK'ing them through the environment among other things)
Or how about a thread giving solutions to things like fishing's lack of apparent use, how about offering alternatives to the long cooldown of research times, how about offering different game mode alternative and side activities with which we could make the VR levels more palatable to players.
But you see, those posts are too hard to write. They take time and commitment to the game and an understanding of the game's culture. That's why those posts are rare and often half-baked.
You've only proven my point.
Edited by d0e1ow on May 8, 2014 11:03PM"Her mystery was as essential to her as savagery was to Boethiah or treachery was to Molag Bal. To understand Nocturnal is to negate her, to pull back the curtains cloaking her realm of darkness." - Sigillah Parate "Invocation of Azura"2 -
Chirru✭✭✭✭the Original poster is 100% WRONG. People in the forums complain because there are real issues with the Game.
If I start a new Char and find more bots harvesting resources in the starter areas than I find players...then I have to conclude something is wrong.
and then there comes this poster and tells me stop whining about it? whom is he/she kidding. forum postings and online reviews are bad because there are sooo many issues that it is NOT funny any longer. The list is a mile long.
Yes, the above is drama because else no one is listening.
the game is good... the Problems are real problems and need to be shouted about, and no, I am not quitting the game because of the problems.
What's wrong with making use of the in game /bug and /feedback tools?
After several 100 times doing this it gets tedious... People need to know they are buying a bugged game upfront. quite honestly...had i known beforehand about the bot problem and the unbalances classes i would have bought the game a year later...if the reviews showed that the bugs, and bots, and unbalances classes, and combat balance has been addressed.0 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭the Original poster is 100% WRONG. People in the forums complain because there are real issues with the Game.
If I start a new Char and find more bots harvesting resources in the starter areas than I find players...then I have to conclude something is wrong.
and then there comes this poster and tells me stop whining about it? whom is he/she kidding. forum postings and online reviews are bad because there are sooo many issues that it is NOT funny any longer. The list is a mile long.
Yes, the above is drama because else no one is listening.
the game is good... the Problems are real problems and need to be shouted about, and no, I am not quitting the game because of the problems.
What's wrong with making use of the in game /bug and /feedback tools?
After several 100 times doing this it gets tedious... People need to know they are buying a bugged game upfront. quite honestly...had i known beforehand about the bot problem and the unbalances classes i would have bought the game a year later...if the reviews showed that the bugs, and bots, and unbalances classes, and combat balance has been addressed.
This statement has no substance, bot problems yes...most mmos have them, what unbalanced classes? Which ones? What makes it unbalanced? Bugs...really? I have never played a MMO that didn't have them after launch.
Combat balance? What exactly is wrong with combat, which classes? Pvp? Pve? Group? Solo?
You see it's this kind of blanket posting bashing this game with no explanation that is not useful to make any kind of decent discussion. Sorry but it's true.2 -
Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've argued with you a lot on these forums. Can't believe I'm agreeing with a post you made which in a strange way (if you think about it) proves your point.1 -
Melian✭✭✭✭the Original poster is 100% WRONG. People in the forums complain because there are real issues with the Game.
If I start a new Char and find more bots harvesting resources in the starter areas than I find players...then I have to conclude something is wrong.
and then there comes this poster and tells me stop whining about it? whom is he/she kidding. forum postings and online reviews are bad because there are sooo many issues that it is NOT funny any longer. The list is a mile long.
Yes, the above is drama because else no one is listening.
the game is good... the Problems are real problems and need to be shouted about, and no, I am not quitting the game because of the problems.
What's wrong with making use of the in game /bug and /feedback tools?
After several 100 times doing this it gets tedious... People need to know they are buying a bugged game upfront. quite honestly...had i known beforehand about the bot problem and the unbalances classes i would have bought the game a year later...if the reviews showed that the bugs, and bots, and unbalances classes, and combat balance has been addressed.
So you admit you're doing it because you hope to convince people not to buy the game (never mind that most people here already have, and that most people who play MMOs know bugs and bots come with the territory)? Yeah, that's what I thought.
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BETAOPTICS✭✭✭Hi, all, OP here:
Thanks again for the person who got so miffed with me they decided to bump this thread.
Anyways, some clarification on my OP. I see a lot of people saying that whining does, in fact, help games or change them. I still hold my position that, no, it doesn't.
Whining is defined as such: "to complain in a feeble and petulant way." Being petulant on these forums, or any company own "dev-viewed" forum will get you nowhere.
Neither will being sarcastic, a jerk, a sycophant, are anything else of the sort. If you don't believe me, I'll happily screenshot how many messages the admins of this forum have sent me notifying me that my various posts have either been edited to death or just outright removed from sight.
What changes things for the better are well informed opinions given accurately, cogently, and sanely. In my experience, this is a rare kind of post that only a small, small fraction of the playerbase actually pulls off, because it not only requires a deep understanding of game systems and the flaws therein, but also skill with the pen.
If you'd like an example of such a post, Reddit or Tamriel Foundry has a few of them here and there, mostly scattered about. Recently Reddit had a big thread with a VR10's thoughts on the game. It was massively upvoted, very long, and you can tell the person has really spent time with the game. However the comment section was mostly just inane whining "at" ZOS.
If you'd like an example of something that the devs probably should throw in the trash-can, look at Angry Joe's "review".
Both of these people have major issues with the game, yet they present them in much different ways. One is compelling and though tinged with frustration presents itself in a clear way. The other is some guy making a video about his "feels" at level 20.
Of course, you're free to post whatever you like. As many people have noted, I don't seem to follow my own advice. This would be true. However what I do or don't do really doesn't matter to you at the end of the day does it? -You- can choose to post whatever you like here however you like.
The content of your post is going to decide whether or not it is taken seriously by the playerbase and/or by the devs. Remember: what appeals to the "feels" of the playerbase often is meaningless to the devs. People love to "complain in a petulant manner", yet such reactions can hardly be called feedback.
Have a fun day, everyone.
-d0e
Well technically it can affect but it is not the best way to influence. Indeed, if you justify your posts with logic instead of pure hatred or pitiful attitudes, it is more likely you will get attention albeit other ways can, not will, but can also grant you attention.
Because in the end of the day, games are customer service and one of the fundamental rules of any customer service is that customer is always right. Which is more like a metaphor to the fact that every customer has to be listened equally, no matter how annoying or unreasonable they are. This is why it is a very hard and stressing thing to be a game developer or a forum moderator.Edited by BETAOPTICS on May 9, 2014 4:38AM0 -
Gohlar✭✭✭✭There are always people presumptuous enough to think they can dictate how others post. They will tell you what you should and should't be saying. They will tell you how you should be saying it. They will try to silence you if you say something they don't want to hear. This always happens but this forum does it at a much higher level than most.
They are completely missing the entire point and value of a discussion forum, which is vastly different opinions presented in vastly different ways. Companies greatly value these forums, this isn't even a debate. If they didn't value them, they wouldn't exist. Dismissing a negative post simply because it's negative is extremely ignorant and counterproductive as you can learn a lot from complaints. I have been fortunate enough to work on the production end with some developers who have released AAA games and believe me, they watch, they read, they learn. It's highly inaccurate to say forums don't have an impact. They most certainly do.
If you spend your time trying to discredit anyone with criticism and silence them under the guise of "they didn't give their opinion correctly", which is little more than objectifying the subjective, you are just another hurdle in the game's development. I really do believe stunted feedback resulting from over bearing defenders making discussion impossible prevented a lot of obvious issues from getting addressed. The game is in a bit of trouble as a result.
Let people complain, it's vital even if you don't understand that.Edited by Gohlar on May 9, 2014 9:09AM2 -
Rial✭✭✭Newsflash: angry posts and youtube review rants never changed anything.
Welcome to Zenimax Online Studios, where months of beta tester feedback go unheeded until the general public starts making a big deal out of the issue.
Trust me, as far as ESO is concerned, the people claiming ESO is perfect and attacking everyone who dares claim otherwise are a much bigger problem than the irrational whiners.3
