I think some of us are missing the scale of Pixie’s request. They are not asking simply for AOE taunt. But also asking for the smaller trash mobs to do enough damage to make aoe taunt necessary in ordinary dungeon runs. Because if you didn’t taunt them all, the DD’s die.

But the next problem this introduces is that most tanks would get completely wrecked in vet content if damage was ramped this high and suddenly he was taking 100% of hits. So now we must buff either tankiness, healing, or both. And of course block sustain must be revisited because the quickest way to drain resources is to block a multitude of small sustained hits…so we are well on our way to taking away the active block mechanic that makes eso tanking unique and fun.

And of course all of this has now just thrown PvP in Cyrodiil into night of the living tanks.

In short, Pixie is not asking for aoe taunts. Pixie is asking for a fundamental restructuring of the entire game. And that’s not going to happen.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I think some of us are missing the scale of Pixie’s request. They are not asking simply for AOE taunt. But also asking for the smaller trash mobs to do enough damage to make aoe taunt necessary in ordinary dungeon runs. Because if you didn’t taunt them all, the DD’s die.

But the next problem this introduces is that most tanks would get completely wrecked in vet content if damage was ramped this high and suddenly he was taking 100% of hits. So now we must buff either tankiness, healing, or both. And of course block sustain must be revisited because the quickest way to drain resources is to block a multitude of small sustained hits…so we are well on our way to taking away the active block mechanic that makes eso tanking unique and fun.

And of course all of this has now just thrown PvP in Cyrodiil into night of the living tanks.

In short, Pixie is not asking for aoe taunts. Pixie is asking for a fundamental restructuring of the entire game. And that’s not going to happen.

I am mostly focused on leveling dungeons, not vets.

I think somewhere in this thread I detailed how trials and vet dungeons would not be changed.

And you know, I dont care what happens to solve the issue of new players not being able to get their quests done, or are unable to keep up with the story of the dungeon.

I just know that something needs to be done about it.

It’s a mess and I sympathize. But I think there are solutions that do no cascade throughout the game. It started a fight in another thread but I’ll restate it here anyways.

1. Take away the endless first run bonuses for swapping to another toon. A big source of the trouble is people trying to run 18 first time dungeons.

2. Then make an option for a non traditional group so that those who don’t care about a tank can 4 DD faster.

Braffin wrote: »

Once again, your "fundamentals" regarding nonverbal communication are completely flawed, as you clearly misunderstood the paper you're referring to.

The paper specifically states how players roles are used to communicate to other players. No flaw in my assertion.

Braffin wrote: »

Further explanation and communication seems pointless, as you refuse to listen anyways and besides that will never convince me to support your demands, as I think they are harmful to the game.

1. I listen just fine, I could say the same about you...but I have not. I have addressed the topic, with studies backing my point about non-verbal communicaiton, you have done little but belittle me and shown no evidence that my claim is false.
2. I never once, not once, made any form of demand. I gave a solution to a problem that exists in game. That is all.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Once again, your "fundamentals" regarding nonverbal communication are completely flawed, as you clearly misunderstood the paper you're referring to.

The paper specifically states how players roles are used to communicate to other players. No flaw in my assertion.

Braffin wrote: »

Further explanation and communication seems pointless, as you refuse to listen anyways and besides that will never convince me to support your demands, as I think they are harmful to the game.

1. I listen just fine, I could say the same about you...but I have not. I have addressed the topic, with studies backing my point about non-verbal communicaiton, you have done little but belittle me and shown no evidence that my claim is false.
2. I never once, not once, made any form of demand. I gave a solution to a problem that exists in game. That is all.

I disagree. The paper and you are talking about completed different things. While the former is describing various means of player interaction in mmos (including roles), you are demanding your personal interpretations of roles and how they are played to be mandatory for all games.

If you really want AoE-taunting that much, go play a game, which is catering to your needs.

Regarding belittleling: You are doing that all the time by basically telling everyone disagreeing with you (so around 90% of this thread's participants), that they either don't read or don't understand your "flawless logic". If the other participants argue against your constant attacks, you wrongly accuse them of getting personal and try to get their opinion deleted.

Regarding new player experience: AoE-taunt won't change anything for newer players in rnd pugs (which are a small part of eso's overall group content). Best solution still are adjusted (=nerfed) rewards, to incentivize players capable of doing so into using the vet queue.
No completely unrelated (and otherwise harmful) addition of AoE-taunting needed.

I think one of the issues that the OP has overlooked is that normal, base game dungeons are *supposed* to be very, very easy. In fact there's been an effort with the recent dlc dungeons (and trials for that matter) to make sure normal is even easier.

This is intentional design. If you want people to slow down and to have enforced roles, there's a solution for that - vet.

Personal opinion of a former Wow tank (Vanilla through Panda).
When I came to Eso I checked out tanking, found it boring = hard taunts + debuff/buff bot.
Wanted to do dungeons as a tank/heal with 3 dps.
Was ridiculed because it wasn't "meta".
Now it is more common.
I had already given up and now stick to my true love PvP.
The only time I do dungeons now is solo, mostly makes me do the boss mechanics.
(shakes fist at pins and pads)

My opinion:
Remove the whole outdated holy trinity concept.
Remove ALL taunts.
Make Bosses etc vulnerable to CC (complete with immunity timers like in PvP).

Why.
Make the challenge -doing the content, mechanics and communication/strategies
- instead of "how fast can we turn the Bosses into target dummies, and Pixel stacking for healer spam".

Sidewish: Increase the number of -scripts-; Bosses have access to ie less predictable.
FREE THE BOSSES

Yes I know it will never happen.

Amottica wrote: »

Thank you. This makes it clear that the lack of an AoE taunt is not the source of any issues listed in the OP. Since it is not the root of the problem or the solution, we can move on from this.

I actually refuted my own comment about this, its not a perfect solution and has its own issues. You can go back through the thread to find it.

Amottica wrote: »

Case closed.

Is the "case closed" for the myriad of players who do want an AOE taunt? What about the fun aspect of the game? I guess fun is not a priority in your ESO game design.

Its no wonder....

Jack-0 wrote: »

No. It's a learn to play issue if you think you need aoe taunts in ESO. Introducing an aoe taunt completely undermines the pleasure of tanking for me and part of the skill curve in learning the role. Part of the skill of being a *good* tank is identifying which are the more dangerous mobs in a group and prioritising them. If you take this away with an aoe taunt, you've just dumbed down the entire role to knuckle-dragging idiot that uses 1 button to control the entire pull, and that is pathetic.

That is not what this thread is about. Read more than the title please.

HOWEVER....replying to your comment specifically. If AOE taunting existed in game, you know you would not have to run it, you can continue on playing your way while allowing other playrs to play there way.

Jack-0 wrote: »

No. It's a learn to play issue if you think you need aoe taunts in ESO. Introducing an aoe taunt completely undermines the pleasure of tanking for me and part of the skill curve in learning the role. Part of the skill of being a *good* tank is identifying which are the more dangerous mobs in a group and prioritising them. If you take this away with an aoe taunt, you've just dumbed down the entire role to knuckle-dragging idiot that uses 1 button to control the entire pull, and that is pathetic.

I don't agree that aoe taunts would mean the role would be dumbed down at all. It would still require strategy and forethought, and I imagine, aoe taunting wouldn't be the only tool available, there'd still be single-focus taunts in the toolbox, which means more than one button because any skill will have a cool down, not to mention situational uses.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

LadyAstrum wrote: »

I agree. I've entered many, many dungeons on newly created / low-level characters and it never ceases to amaze me how many times people have raced through it at break-neck speed. There's no consideration at all for starter players and how it could be daunting or confusing, or just downright discouraging to enter a dungeon for the first or second or third time and have someone much higher level race through it, leaving the newbie trailing in their dust, or making it difficult to even get a quest done.

Well said. I know the feeling. I see it happen all too often anymore. What used to be a random occurance has now become the default standard. I don't expect to see a slow run anymore. And its extremely frustrating to new players/new alts to get quests done.

LadyAstrum wrote: »

At least communicate first (in low-level dungeons) that you want to speed through. Maybe ESO doesn't have many new players anymore, but for the odd one or two that do, they might want to take it easy in a dungeon so they can: a) learn the mechanics, b) read the quests, c) actually complete the quest, d) enjoy the experience.

I am not even sure if that would work. I expressed that I was doing a quest yesterday on a level 15 alt, and the speed runner did nothing but kept rushing ahead and killing bosses.


I ran a dungeon today on my main, I was put in with 3 sub 20 players. I ran at their pace, allowing the tank to pull so he could have fun doing his tankly duties. I made sure they all had their quest, I made sure we all the bosses (in this dungeon one of them is often skipped by speed runners). And at the end I made sure they had their quests to turn in.

My life is not any worse becasue I waited for them. In fact I think its a bit better knowing I helped to make someones experience in game a good one.

And ultimately, that is what this is all about.

You seem to have patience and consideration. A rare trait, me thinks!

What about the fun aspect of the game?

No game is made for everyone. That's why people usually pick a game, see how it is designed, see whether or not the design is fun in their books and then either keep playing or go look for another game that suits their expectations. Noone is forcing anyone to play (subjectively) boring games.
Asking the developers to change fundamental parts of the design just because someone doesn't think it's "fun" does not work. I'm sure there are people out there whose idea of having fun and "play how you want" in ESO would be a button that instantly kills anything on the screen. Sounds like an exaggeration but we've seen suggestions in the past that were not too far off of that concept.

As for the speedrunning / new players questing problem: that's exactly what the extended group finder was made for! It is beyond me why people are not using it.

Braffin wrote: »

But how those roles are working is different in different games, as they aren't based on some sort of "trinity law" across all multiplayer games but are specifically tied into the combat vision of a specific development team.

In eso tanks never relied on AoE-taunting, as this function isn't present (besides a few odd exemptions over the years). So they of course don't communicate AoE-taunting, neither non-verbally nor verbally.

The roles, which are practiced by weekly repetition, are created by the players themselves by practicing teamwork together. The paper you refer to brings training outside of content (including an explaining raidlead) as a team as an example, thus further solidifying the importance of verbal communication for a joyful group experience. The latter you denied several times during your answers already.

You have to understand, that the roles they are talking about aren't the "trinity roles" but are dependent of class, group composition, playstyle of the group. Being asked by the group to interrupt a specific enemy, fulfilling special tasks (like being the runner in vMoL for example), participating in warhorn-rotation. All of that are examples for "roles". It's not restricted to "trinity"-theories and definitely not to narrowed-down personal preferences regarding trinity roles.

I fully understand this. Let me say this again, I FULLY understand this.

That does not change the fact that Tanks hold monsters aggression. That is well established and is a "trinity law" so to speak. Just like a green light means go and a red light means stop regardless of the state one lives in or even what country you live in Europe.
In ESO however, Tanks....kinda hold the monsters aggression. That is to say, the tank is not designed to hold them all, this is well established in this thread.

HOWEVER that does nothing to communicate to the DPS or Healer if the tank is going to grab a loose mobs aggro, or if they are going to leave the DPS/Heal to deal with it.

This is what I mean. ESO non-verbal communication is muddied because the tanks do not hold all monsters aggro.

Braffin wrote: »

1) Speedrunning and AoE-taunting are unrelated, as was made clear in this thread several times rather understandable.
2) Besides the discussion regarding tormentor (which I wouldn't change to provide options for low-tier content) I didn't see a post regarding AoE-taunting in months. Additionally your suggestions aren't recieved well in this thread. That should give you something to think, shouldn't it?
3) Don't hide behind "play your way". You are the one trying to restrict playstyles.

1. And I explained why they are multiple times through this thread, which can be observed in game today, at this very moment.
2. And a lot of people, a LOT of people are upset about the change to Tormentor, that should say something shouldn't it? As far as my suggestions not being well received...It looks to me like they have. Its the same 3 people upvoting each other or their alt accounts and or family friends. Please do not think I am naive.
3. I am the one trying to restrict playstlyes? Really, by suggesting we ADD a playstyle to the game?.....

Braffin wrote: »

Most people (including me) initially simply stated their concerns and questions regarding your demands. The reason you are seen as the issue here, is that you're refusing to answer to questions and accuse everyone disagreeing with you to be intentionally unconstructive.

But this IS the case. And no, you have not stated concerns. You first post towards me was extemely combative.
"Enforcing roles is wether needed nor wanted in a game, which specifically gives players the freedom to creatively build their toons for fulfilling various different tasks.

An AoE-taunt isn't needed either and would do nothing to solve your "fake roles and speedrunner" issues. You tanked in swtor, you say? Then you know very well, that tanks are a scarce oddity outside of master flashpoints (because not needed) and that bioware changed lower tier flashpoints to be doable with 4 DDs."

Secondly. Very few, not includng you, have suggested other ways to combat the issues I have presented. Instead its always some form of attack against me or my idea.

Braffin wrote: »

Wanna see the issue on point? Well, here we go:

And my position, the primary context of this thread is about non-verbal communication which details a game that is decades old.

Braffin wrote: »

I (unfortunately) read everything you posted, I simply disagree.

And have given no proof of reason to disagree, instead just shooting down an idea becasue it goes against your desires.

Braffin wrote: »

I know very well, that you are demanding not alone AoE-taunting but also increased difficulty for normal dungeons. While I don't oppose this second idea, I don't see how exactly more challenging enemies will be helpful for newer players, as they'd definitely will less likely successfully finish said content.

Please quote me where I said I am "demanding" anything in this thread, just one quote please. Becasue I have not demanded anything. I simply presented a problem, and a potential solution, actually multiple solutions.

Braffin wrote: »

And it won't solve your speedrunning issue in rnd pugs either, as players which at present capable of clearing vet content (so without AoE-taunt or even without tank entirely) won't have issues with cheesing rnd no matter what. Newer players will just die significantly more while left alone by the speedrunner.

and yet....this does not happen in WOW....its almost as if, it works.

thorwyn wrote: »

What about the fun aspect of the game?

No game is made for everyone. That's why people usually pick a game, see how it is designed, see whether or not the design is fun in their books and then either keep playing or go look for another game that suits their expectations. Noone is forcing anyone to play (subjectively) boring games.
Asking the developers to change fundamental parts of the design just because someone doesn't think it's "fun" does not work. I'm sure there are people out there whose idea of having fun and "play how you want" in ESO would be a button that instantly kills anything on the screen. Sounds like an exaggeration but we've seen suggestions in the past that were not too far off of that concept.

As for the speedrunning / new players questing problem: that's exactly what the extended group finder was made for! It is beyond me why people are not using it.

Except that people have been able to use aoe taunting, and its being taken out of the game.

You can't decide to make the game "not for everyone" in the middle of the games life cycle.

You can't decide to make the game "not for everyone" in the middle of the games life cycle.

Oh.. you totally can, as we have seen in U35.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

But how those roles are working is different in different games, as they aren't based on some sort of "trinity law" across all multiplayer games but are specifically tied into the combat vision of a specific development team.

In eso tanks never relied on AoE-taunting, as this function isn't present (besides a few odd exemptions over the years). So they of course don't communicate AoE-taunting, neither non-verbally nor verbally.

The roles, which are practiced by weekly repetition, are created by the players themselves by practicing teamwork together. The paper you refer to brings training outside of content (including an explaining raidlead) as a team as an example, thus further solidifying the importance of verbal communication for a joyful group experience. The latter you denied several times during your answers already.

You have to understand, that the roles they are talking about aren't the "trinity roles" but are dependent of class, group composition, playstyle of the group. Being asked by the group to interrupt a specific enemy, fulfilling special tasks (like being the runner in vMoL for example), participating in warhorn-rotation. All of that are examples for "roles". It's not restricted to "trinity"-theories and definitely not to narrowed-down personal preferences regarding trinity roles.

I fully understand this. Let me say this again, I FULLY understand this.

That does not change the fact that Tanks hold monsters aggression. That is well established and is a "trinity law" so to speak. Just like a green light means go and a red light means stop regardless of the state one lives in or even what country you live in Europe.
In ESO however, Tanks....kinda hold the monsters aggression. That is to say, the tank is not designed to hold them all, this is well established in this thread.

HOWEVER that does nothing to communicate to the DPS or Healer if the tank is going to grab a loose mobs aggro, or if they are going to leave the DPS/Heal to deal with it.

This is what I mean. ESO non-verbal communication is muddied because the tanks do not hold all monsters aggro.

I don't share your interpretation. If we want to talk about communication we'll have to talk about language. Now eso definitely speaks another language than some old-school mmo like WoW or swtor. There isn't some sort of "trinity law" across all the various games, because there simply isn't an authority to enforce such "law".

Yes, most old-school mmos have the ability to AoE-taunt enemies. They also provide some sort of threat-management-minigame, which has to be considered by the whole group for the tank to be able to maintain aggro. Eso doesn't feature such system, thus reducing AoE-taunting basically to "press button once every x sec and don't care about taunting otherwise". That's what I call simplification of interesting game-design. I'm not interested in trivializing the game and therefore oppose your demands.

Not having an AoE-taunt isn't a flaw of this game, but ultimately made tanking more interesting and meaningful. Also communication and group-play are improved by incentivizing each group to think about the chosen strategy for various fights.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

1) Speedrunning and AoE-taunting are unrelated, as was made clear in this thread several times rather understandable.
2) Besides the discussion regarding tormentor (which I wouldn't change to provide options for low-tier content) I didn't see a post regarding AoE-taunting in months. Additionally your suggestions aren't recieved well in this thread. That should give you something to think, shouldn't it?
3) Don't hide behind "play your way". You are the one trying to restrict playstyles.

1. And I explained why they are multiple times through this thread, which can be observed in game today, at this very moment.
2. And a lot of people, a LOT of people are upset about the change to Tormentor, that should say something shouldn't it? As far as my suggestions not being well received...It looks to me like they have. Its the same 3 people upvoting each other or their alt accounts and or family friends. Please do not think I am naive.
3. I am the one trying to restrict playstlyes? Really, by suggesting we ADD a playstyle to the game?.....

1) You shared your opinion regarding this topic, yes. That's not a irrrefutable truth tho, but merely your personal opinion. Which I don't agree with. And I have the same right to express my disagreement, as you have to share your opinion. Your explanations are insufficient and trying to create connections, where indeed no connections are present.
2) Accusing others of "trolling tactics" without providing proof is exactly the disruptive behaviour you are wrongly accusing others to practice.
3) I already quoted an example, where you are clearly intending to restrict a playstyle for the sake of catering to another.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Most people (including me) initially simply stated their concerns and questions regarding your demands. The reason you are seen as the issue here, is that you're refusing to answer to questions and accuse everyone disagreeing with you to be intentionally unconstructive.

But this IS the case. And no, you have not stated concerns. You first post towards me was extemely combative.
"Enforcing roles is wether needed nor wanted in a game, which specifically gives players the freedom to creatively build their toons for fulfilling various different tasks.

An AoE-taunt isn't needed either and would do nothing to solve your "fake roles and speedrunner" issues. You tanked in swtor, you say? Then you know very well, that tanks are a scarce oddity outside of master flashpoints (because not needed) and that bioware changed lower tier flashpoints to be doable with 4 DDs."

Secondly. Very few, not includng you, have suggested other ways to combat the issues I have presented. Instead its always some form of attack against me or my idea.

I stated my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

You didn't answer my question btw: If AoE-taunting solves issues with low population of tanks and speedrunning, why does a game (swtor in this case), which provide AoE-taunting, offer it's playerbase flashpoints (=dungeons) without set roles (they even added healing stations, so damage dealers can heal themselves)? Why does it take approximately an hour to pug master mode (=highest difficulty) due to lack of tanks? It's definitely not the missing AoE-taunt, lol.

You are looking for a fruitful discussion? Then don't ignore presented facts but argue why something should provide a solution in eso, which is clearly not working in a similar game.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Wanna see the issue on point? Well, here we go:

And my position, the primary context of this thread is about non-verbal communication which details a game that is decades old.

Nobody is denying the importance of non-verbal communication. It's your interpretation of this term I disagree with.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I (unfortunately) read everything you posted, I simply disagree.

And have given no proof of reason to disagree, instead just shooting down an idea becasue it goes against your desires.

Once again: I already stated in my initial post, that your claims are contradicted by my experience with other similar games. Swtor, WoW, Star trek online: All of them have AoE-taunting, all of them have "speedrunning", all of them implemented possibilities to bypass "trinity" when grouping and all of them lack players interested in support roles (tanks, healers) outside the most challenging content.

Why should it be any different in eso? Answer that instead of wrongly accusing me personally to invalidate the provided data.