Why AOE taunting should take place in ESO.

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  • LunaFlora
    LunaFlora
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    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

    Everyone seems to be assuming, but the devs mentioned nothing about that. And the scribed bow skill had a tooltip that said "arrow". Singular. Not "arrows". So I am not convinced that everybody jumping to the "Bow AOE taunt!!!" conclusion is correct.

    038xbq3gcq93.jpg
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    because it says radius. which is what AoE skills also say.

    addition:
    went back to the reveal video and the bow vault grimoire is supposed to indeed be an AoE
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    Edited by LunaFlora on February 17, 2024 7:36AM
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  • Pixiepumpkin
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    Amottica wrote: »

    The first point is correct in how it was designed but it was not due to the lack of an AoE taunt. An AoE taunt has never been added to the game because it is not needed.
    AOE taunting was added through the Tormentor set and many players love it. It's fun, shakes things up. Its not broken, its not overpowered.
    Amottica wrote: »
    As such the rest is an assumption that does not correlate since the basis is incorrect.
    The basis is not incorrect becasue the basis is about non-verbal communication to the player through defined roles (which ESO does not do as well as it's contemporaries) and regarding speed running its a logical concluision. I already spelled it out in my first reply to you.
    Amottica wrote: »
    The solid fact that for almost a decade a great many tanks have successfully tanked all group content in ESO from the more mundane to the more challenging, all without an AoE taunt provides extremely solid proof that an AoE taunt is not needed in ESO. That is almost ten years of proof that is indisputable.
    But that is not what this thread is about if you actually read it.
    Amottica wrote: »
    Further, zero proof has been provided to back up the claim that fake tanking is a result of a lack of AoE taunt and there are a great many fights where the tank is required to hold agro or the group will wipe.
    The proof is in the game, player experiences in the game and as I already stated, I spelled it out in my first post to you.



    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    That's not true the devs can actually put hard stops at certain spots rather than allowing the entire zone to be pulled to a boss and kill everything together. So don't say nothing can be done when there are options just saying.

    Solid suggestion.

    That would slow the dungeons down for players doing the quests and ensure the new player experience is met as the game was designed.

    This should have been in place long ago and would eliminate the need to make harder mobs (as I suggested) and AOE taunting implemented (so tanks could hold all aggro).

    Of course now the reply is going to be something along the lines of "dont force me to play slow"...or something to that effect.
    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Amottica wrote: »
    Some players run past the mobs mostly because they can move faster than the mobs. Adding an AoE taunt does not change how easy it is to skip the mobs which is why an AoE taunt is irrelevant to this.
    You left out the part of the equation that I have spelled out multiple times in this thread, that the AOE taking would be accompanied with harder 1-2 DPS/Healer shotting mobs. That is to say mobs would need to have their damage output scaled up so that it would kill DPS and healers in a hit or two.

    AOE taunting would need to be implemented for the tank to pick up these mobs.


    But @Kidgangster101 solution would also work at solving the issue of speed running, although it would keep dungeon pacing at a narrow band, where as AOE taunting accompanied by harder htting mobs would still allow an elite coordinated group to blow through stuff fast.



    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Ph1p
    Ph1p
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    You can read this for a greater understanding. I suggest you do so before commenting, else you are off topic.
    https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/2812748.2812769

    So, basically you're gatekeeping this discussion until someone goes and reads a 14-page scientific discourse? Well, I did out of curiosity and I'm not impressed. Perhaps it expertly disseminates MMO gameplay from a microsociological perspective and for a non-gaming audience, but it contains no insights that any semi-experienced ESO player doesn't already know. If anyone doesn't want to read this from scratch, here's a summary:

    Introduction:
    As its intro states, this work is specifically about "the user interface, how it supports nonverbal communication between the game and the player, and how it facilitates coordinated action among players", using raiding in World of Warcraft as an example.

    Chapter 1: Raiding in WoW
    You can completely skip chapter 1, which just explains to non-gamers what WoW and raids are.

    Chapter 2: The User Interface
    You can also completely skip chapter 2, which explains at length how the user interface in WoW works, for example "that a few characters have red writing above their heads, marking them as enemies". The authors explain how visual and audio cues telegraph boss mechanics and indicate to each raid role what to do.

    Chapter 3: From User Interface to Coordinated Action
    Chapter 3 discusses how these UI cues translate to more or less coordinated group action and how a lack of voice chat can be limiting. It takes the authors four lengthy paragraphs to basically say this:
    1. MMO raids have defined group mechanics, that every player needs to recognize and react to. Each player also has to anticipate and take into account the actions of the other players, while still performing their own role as well as possible.
    2. To maximize raid performance, roles and performance become more important than the people. For example, healers focus on filling up health bars especially for tanks, while the people behind the health bar/the role become much less important.
    3. Since coordination is crucial, people need to pay attention to mechanics as well as anticipate and interpret other players' actions to be successful. When only relying on in-game cues without voice chat, this can be extra difficult.
    4. So if a player just screws around or doesn't coordinate with the group, the other players will get angry and possibly quit. Thus, players need to continuously assess the raid situation with their own role and the other roles in mind. Raids are most successful, when players' individual assessments are in agreement, which is especially helped by voice chat and third-party add-ons.

    Chapter 4: Computer-Mediated Communication, Virtual Worlds, and Coordinated Action
    This is where it finally gets interesting: Computer-mediated communication, symbolic interactionism, media synchronicity, and [insert more jargon here]. Except this whole chapter comes down to an obvious conclusion we all know: Voice chat is a very effective tool to complement existing modes of communication. Such insight, much wow... They also highlight how raid groups practicing positions before a boss fight is an example of "characters' bodies becoming visual learning tools" and an example of "creative communication". Except it's not even an example of purely non-verbal communication, because it's accompanied by the raid leader explaining everything in voice...
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Ph1p wrote: »

    So, basically you're gatekeeping this discussion until someone goes and reads a 14-page scientific discourse? Well, I did out of curiosity and I'm not impressed. Perhaps it expertly disseminates MMO gameplay from a microsociological perspective and for a non-gaming audience, but it contains no insights that any semi-experienced ESO player doesn't already know. If anyone doesn't want to read this from scratch, here's a summary:

    Introduction:
    As its intro states, this work is specifically about "the user interface, how it supports nonverbal communication between the game and the player, and how it facilitates coordinated action among players", using raiding in World of Warcraft as an example.

    Chapter 1: Raiding in WoW
    You can completely skip chapter 1, which just explains to non-gamers what WoW and raids are.

    Chapter 2: The User Interface
    You can also completely skip chapter 2, which explains at length how the user interface in WoW works, for example "that a few characters have red writing above their heads, marking them as enemies". The authors explain how visual and audio cues telegraph boss mechanics and indicate to each raid role what to do.

    Chapter 3: From User Interface to Coordinated Action
    Chapter 3 discusses how these UI cues translate to more or less coordinated group action and how a lack of voice chat can be limiting. It takes the authors four lengthy paragraphs to basically say this:
    1. MMO raids have defined group mechanics, that every player needs to recognize and react to. Each player also has to anticipate and take into account the actions of the other players, while still performing their own role as well as possible.
    2. To maximize raid performance, roles and performance become more important than the people. For example, healers focus on filling up health bars especially for tanks, while the people behind the health bar/the role become much less important.
    3. Since coordination is crucial, people need to pay attention to mechanics as well as anticipate and interpret other players' actions to be successful. When only relying on in-game cues without voice chat, this can be extra difficult.
    4. So if a player just screws around or doesn't coordinate with the group, the other players will get angry and possibly quit. Thus, players need to continuously assess the raid situation with their own role and the other roles in mind. Raids are most successful, when players' individual assessments are in agreement, which is especially helped by voice chat and third-party add-ons.

    Chapter 4: Computer-Mediated Communication, Virtual Worlds, and Coordinated Action
    This is where it finally gets interesting: Computer-mediated communication, symbolic interactionism, media synchronicity, and [insert more jargon here]. Except this whole chapter comes down to an obvious conclusion we all know: Voice chat is a very effective tool to complement existing modes of communication. Such insight, much wow... They also highlight how raid groups practicing positions before a boss fight is an example of "characters' bodies becoming visual learning tools" and an example of "creative communication". Except it's not even an example of purely non-verbal communication, because it's accompanied by the raid leader explaining everything in voice...

    You ever play on a European server? Not everyone reads, writes, or speaks English that are lumped to play together. There are players who are deaf or mute.

    Outside of that, gameplay happens fast, real fast and its important that everyone in a group, which more often than not is a Pick Up Group (PUG), be able to understand what is going on in order to "win" the encounter. This is done through non-verbal communication which itself accompanies a myriad of things to achieve as the paper points out and as we witness in game.

    Those aside, no, you can not skip chapter one....that chapter details exactly what I am discussing here, and its not "for wow only" as it pertains to any game where there are roles to fulfill and how those roles communicate.

    Chapter 1, page 310 (4th page on the PDF).

    "T he most difficult aspect of raiding is not eliminating bosses per se, but rather coordinating player action
    during encounters
    . Only when players are able to synchronize their characters’ respective role performances
    can they defeat bosses and obtain rewards.
    Many players will encounter the same boss dozens of times
    before successfully defeating it. Further, raid bosses “respawn” every week, offering repeated opportunities
    for groups to hone strategies and build teamwork in order to smoothly progress through the raid area.
    Weekly repetition results in routinization of interaction where “respective identities and roles [become]
    essentially given and unproblematic, so that negotiation is mainly a matter of all recognizing the governing
    occasion or situation”
    (McCall 2003:331). Nevertheless, due to the random make-up of many raids,
    and the general complexity of boss encounters, raids continue to showcase the emergent nature of social
    action, warranting an analysis of the interface through which players interpret and act upon symbolic
    communications involving the game itself and other players. "








    Edited by Pixiepumpkin on February 17, 2024 12:42PM
    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Amottica
    Amottica
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    AOE taunting was added through the Tormentor set and many players love it. It's fun, shakes things up. Its not broken, its not overpowered.
    The basis is not incorrect becasue the basis is about non-verbal communication to the player through defined roles (which ESO does not do as well as it's contemporaries) and regarding speed running its a logical concluision. I already spelled it out in my first reply to you.
    But that is not what this thread is about if you actually read it.
    The proof is in the game, player experiences in the game and as I already stated, I spelled it out in my first post to you.



    1. It may have been fun for the small group that used it but that does not change the fact that ESO's group content is designed so that an AoE taunt is not required.

    2. The fact that ESO does not have the forced rigid archetype roles that other MMORPGs have is not relevent to the lack of necessity of an AoE taunt it has been proven time and time again that content can be cleared like this and without an AoE taunt. Even so, any group can have their players adhere to the traditional archetype roles if they choose to which is another reason it is irrelevant to the AoE taunt discussion.

    3. The comments used in the OP incorrectly suggest there are problems created by the lack of an AoE taunt. As such my comment to the solid fact that all the group content in ESO, including the most challenging difficulty levels, has been cleared successfully a great many times over almost ten years is very relevant.

    It proves the fact that the AoE taunt is far from needed.

    4. What is suggested to be proof has no real correlation to the game not having an AoE taunt. I already pointed out how the suggested correlation is inaccurate.

  • Amottica
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    You left out the part of the equation that I have spelled out multiple times in this thread, that the AOE taking would be accompanied with harder 1-2 DPS/Healer shotting mobs. That is to say mobs would need to have their damage output scaled up so that it would kill DPS and healers in a hit or two.

    AOE taunting would need to be implemented for the tank to pick up these mobs.


    But @Kidgangster101 solution would also work at solving the issue of speed running, although it would keep dungeon pacing at a narrow band, where as AOE taunting accompanied by harder htting mobs would still allow an elite coordinated group to blow through stuff fast.



    I did not miss anything. My comment quoted above was made to another player's comments about hard stops being placed into the dungeons.

    It was made in reply to what they said and in agreement with what they said.

  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Amottica wrote: »
    1. It may have been fun for the small group that used it but that does not change the fact that ESO's group content is designed so that an AoE taunt is not required.
    It is based on my OP in order to solve issues in game, that thus far have not been addressed.
    Amottica wrote: »
    2. The fact that ESO does not have the forced rigid archetype roles that other MMORPGs have is not relevent to the lack of necessity of an AoE taunt it has been proven time and time again that content can be cleared like this and without an AoE taunt. Even so, any group can have their players adhere to the traditional archetype roles if they choose to which is another reason it is irrelevant to the AoE taunt discussion.
    1. My post, as I have already iterated to you, is not about how many successful dungeon runs have happened.
    2. Groups can not adhere to traditional roles due to the fact that tanks can not taunt an entire room efficiently and some times not effectively. This means healers and DPS will be off tanking. That is the antethesis of adhering to traditonal achetypes. AOE taunting would solve this issue.
    Amottica wrote: »
    3. The comments used in the OP incorrectly suggest there are problems created by the lack of an AoE taunt. As such my comment to the solid fact that all the group content in ESO, including the most challenging difficulty levels, has been cleared successfully a great many times over almost ten years is very relevant.
    Once again, you are atteping to argue points I never made and change the topic/move goalposts.
    My OP stands true. Non-verbal communicaiton is a necessity in an MMORPG, or any game where players assume roles (tanking, DPS, healing, crowd control, etc). The roles themselves dictate what the player is communicating (tanks hold aggro, healers heal and keep party alive, DPS kill mobs). This is muddied (as I said in my OP) due to the lack of no aoe taunting (because tanks cant old ALL aggro). The communication is blurred and the party can not reliably predict what mob the tank will or will not get aggro from.
    Amottica wrote: »
    It proves the fact that the AoE taunt is far from needed.
    The fact that new players are not completing their quests, and having bad experiences would suggest that dungeon runs need to be slowed down, one way to do this is through AOE tanking (because mobs would have to hit harder)
    I have already gone over this if you actually read the thread.
    Amottica wrote: »
    4. What is suggested to be proof has no real correlation to the game not having an AoE taunt. I already pointed out how the suggested correlation is inaccurate.
    You need to read the thread in its entirety, I have already gone over this multiple times.


    Edited by Pixiepumpkin on February 17, 2024 2:50PM
    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Pixiepumpkin
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    Amottica wrote: »

    I did not miss anything. My comment quoted above was made to another player's comments about hard stops being placed into the dungeons.

    It was made in reply to what they said and in agreement with what they said.

    You did miss it, because you did not debate it. Your rebuttal had nothing to do with what I am discussing here.
    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Gray_howling_parrot
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    Regardless of if there is a "need" for an AOE taunt, tanking would feel inherently better WITH an AOE taunt.

    It's more fun - period.

    Play literally any other MMO - there's AOE taunting. ESO is just trying to be unique for the sake of being unique, not for the sake of creating more fun. There's no real reason for their design philosophy to be centered around single target tanking. You already do no damage and are just a debuff/buff bot for the group with a bunch of health.

    Sincerely,
    A player who has tanked in every MMO he's played and in ESO since day 1
    ESO YouTube Content Creator & Templar Tank/Healer Main
  • Gray_howling_parrot
    Gray_howling_parrot
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    davidtk wrote: »
    [snip]

    thats largely probably where the point of this thread came from

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on February 17, 2024 5:47PM
    ESO YouTube Content Creator & Templar Tank/Healer Main
  • davidtk
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    thats largely probably where the point of this thread came from

    I replied to this thread then I wanted remove my post. Just tried edit my post...
    Then you just repplied to not completely edited my post...

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on February 17, 2024 5:47PM
    Really sorry for my english
  • g0thiCiCecReaM
    g0thiCiCecReaM
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    AOE tanking should be in the game, I spend more time taunting single targets and chasing people running away from me that have aggro on something than actually doing anything else when I tank unless I'm running tormentor on my templar.
  • spartaxoxo
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    The lack of AOE taunt factually eliminates an entire play style from the game, and one that is pretty popular in the industry. This obviously means that some players that might have enjoyed tanking will not.

    This is not necessarily a problem in the sense of it preventing completion. But reducing tanking play styles means there is a lack of gameplay variety in the class. And that lack of variety is one of many contributing factors as to why the tank queue is not in a great spot.

    The game doesn't necessarily need to solve that issue by introducing AOE tanking. But they should definitely address the issues tank players often cite as reasons they don't queue.
    Edited by spartaxoxo on February 18, 2024 3:16AM
  • Galeriano
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    AOE taunting was added through the Tormentor set and many players love it. It's fun, shakes things up. Its not broken, its not overpowered.
    The basis is not incorrect becasue the basis is about non-verbal communication to the player through defined roles (which ESO does not do as well as it's contemporaries) and regarding speed running its a logical concluision. I already spelled it out in my first reply to you.
    But that is not what this thread is about if you actually read it.
    The proof is in the game, player experiences in the game and as I already stated, I spelled it out in my first post to you.



    And devs themselves said it was an oversight and they didn't want it in the game. What it does is making tanking dull and silly. If everything someone needs to do to keep aggro on whole group of enemies is taping one ability 2-3 times per fight it's kinda silly. Current way of taunting with just single target taunts and pulls is adding way more dynamic and challenge into tanking and taking that away with AoE taunts would just make tanking boring.

    Claiming that fake tanking is a result of lack of AoE taunt is completly made up idea no matter how hard You want to belive in it. Did amount of fake tanks suddenly started to go down after AoE taunt was added with tormentor set? If anything it actually had opposite result because I know people who slapped that set on back bar on their DDs so now instead of spamming inner rage they could just use stampede once or twice and they could do vet dungeons with it making their fake tanks even more effective.
    Edited by Galeriano on February 18, 2024 7:45AM
  • Amottica
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    It is based on my OP in order to solve issues in game, that thus far have not been addressed.

    But the lack of an Aoe taunt or that the design does not need an AoE taunt is not the cause of the issues that are mentioned in the OP.

    More importantly, if Zenimax wanted to bring an end to all that is listed in the OP it can be done, easily done, without adding an AoE taunt. What proves my comment is correct is that the most challenging content in the game is done without AoE taunts.

    I did not reply to the rest because everything else is based on this one premise which is not correct.

  • Amottica
    Amottica
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    Galeriano wrote: »

    And devs themselves said it was an oversight and they didn't want it in the game. What it does is making tanking dull and silly. If all someone needs to do to hold whole aggro is taping one ability 2-3 times per fight it's kinda silly. Current way of taunting with just single target taunts and pulls is adding way more dynamic and challenge intotanking and taking that away with AoE taunts would just make tanking boring.

    Claiming that faketanking is a result of lack of AoE taunt is completly made up idea no matter how hard You want to belive in it. Did amount of fake tanks suddenly started to go down after AoE taunt was added with tormentor set? If anything it actually had opposite result because I know people who slapped that set on back bar on their DDs so now instead of spamming inner rage they could just use stampede once or twice and they could do vet dungeons with it making their fake tanks even more effective.

    I agree and the first two sentences sum up why tanking in ESO is more engaging than that of other MMORPGs. Tanking in ESO is more engaging and requires a higher level of focus than other MMORPGs. I grew tired of the monotonous and repetitive tanking in other games because I could do it without paying much attention to the fight.

  • Galeriano
    Galeriano
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    AOE tanking should be in the game, I spend more time taunting single targets and chasing people running away from me that have aggro on something than actually doing anything else when I tank unless I'm running tormentor on my templar.

    Use ranged taunt? Use pull abilitiy? Single target pull abilities even have taunt built into them now. You have one ranged pull in a fighters guild tree.
    Edited by Galeriano on February 18, 2024 8:56AM
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Braffin wrote: »
    Yes, I'm sure about that.

    No mention of AoE taunts in the article.
    The OP is about communication and how roles perform communication. That is in part what the paper discusses.
    It does not need to mention anything about AOE taunting.
    Braffin wrote: »
    No mention of specific skills for roles in the article.
    There is no need to. I am discussing fundamentals, as is the paper.
    Braffin wrote: »
    Instead they are correctly saying, that coordinating players is the major work on the road to success.
    And player coordination takes place through non-verbal communication, which takes place by the roles a player takes on for the dungeon run.
    Braffin wrote: »
    Then you come in and demand the game to solve this issue for you by putting the players on rails.
    False accusation. I have never demanded anything. What I have done is point out issues in the game today and how e got here, and how we can solve it.


    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Dragonnord wrote: »
    Thing is there's no issue to solve.
    Speed running that makes the new player experience inside of dungeons miserable. That is a very very serious issue.
    Dragonnord wrote: »
    We can't force someone that went to Fungal Grotto 1000 times to not want to speed run it. I vote for letting that player speed run it, it's understandable that they don't want to be there more than 5 minutes.
    Yes we can if it is at the expense of the new player experierence, which it is.
    Dragonnord wrote: »
    We can't force a seasoned tank to tank trash that lasts 5 minutes because the two dps do 10k damage between both, and then 30 minutes in the first boss after wiping 10 times, and 1:30 hs. in the dungeon, that he/she usually completes in 10 minutes or less. I support that tank if he/she wants to swap gear to dps and solo the dungeon in minutes.
    Again, not at the expense of the new player experience.
    Dragonnord wrote: »
    We can't force a healer to rez players 50 times in a dungeon because they keep dying to stupid. I support that healer if he/she wants to swap gear to dps and speed run the place.
    Again, not at the expense of the new player experience.
    Dragonnord wrote: »
    We can't force two friends to teach mechanics to people that don't understand, or don't respond. "Hey dude! Are you there? Are you reading me?" So I support them if they want to run ahead and clean everything on their own.
    I never said we should. But for the sake of a good community, they should.
    Dragonnord wrote: »
    Speed runs will continue to happen and I'm fine with them.
    Its a failed design because it allows for players to abuse other players in that they are not allowed to keep up with the story and in many cases do not get to complete their quests.
    Dragonnord wrote: »
    That's why you can play with friends, that's why you can join guilds, that's why you can use organized groups in Discord if you aren't having luck with random groups.
    And I have ZERO issues with organized groups speed running a dungeon. I never asserted I did.
    Dragonnord wrote: »
    So, nicely with a nice tone of voice (no sarcasm), I honestly think things should remain as they are.
    I also say nicely, with no sarcasm. I 100% vehemently disagree because of the new player or low level expeirence.

    I ran three dungeons yesterday on new character. All three were speed runs. All three were miserable with the speed runner leaving the other 2 low level players behind. We did not get to complete our quests.

    This is a serious issue. That is if you want new players to stick around and grow with the game and contribute moniterely to ESO for future development that we all get to experience.
    Dragonnord wrote: »
    I was a new player too once, and I'm still here after 10 years, regardless good and bad situations, slow or speed runs.
    Speed running was not an issue 10 years ago. And most long time players have already done the quests, already understasnd the story.

    This however is NOT the case for new players. The game is completely different today than what it was 10 years ago, even 5 years ago.
    Dragonnord wrote: »
    People need to take it easy. Maybe that run with a speed runner was awful, maybe next run is the best run ever.
    They are just about all aweful. Especially if you are trying to do quests and listen to the story.
    Dragonnord wrote: »
    Still, if you want to solve speed runs, then add two different queues for dungeons, one that says "Slow runs, doors added to every single room of the dungeon (need to kill everything to advance rooms).
    I agree a story mode should be implemented if they do nothing else to solve this issue.


    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Galeriano wrote: »
    And devs themselves said it was an oversight and they didn't want it in the game. What it does is making tanking dull and silly.
    A matter of opinon. I enjoyed AOE tanking in WOW as did many others, and many have expressed their disapproval on these very forums becasue they lack an AOE taunt.

    It would be no more "silly" than AOE healing, which currently resides in game on a massive scale.
    Galeriano wrote: »
    If everything someone needs to do to keep aggro on whole group of enemies is taping one ability 2-3 times per fight it's kinda silly. Current way of taunting with just single target taunts and pulls is adding way more dynamic and challenge into tanking and taking that away with AoE taunts would just make tanking boring.
    Again, a matter of opinion. There is nothing "silly" about AOE taunting.
    It's a tool, like any other tool and has its use.

    However what IS silly, is spamming taunt 12 times to pick up all the adds as others have pointed out in this thread.
    Galeriano wrote: »
    Claiming that fake tanking is a result of lack of AoE taunt is completly made up idea no matter how hard You want to belive in it.
    I never said that. I never once said that. Go reread what I said. Its on the first page.

    Galeriano wrote: »
    Did amount of fake tanks suddenly started to go down after AoE taunt was added with tormentor set? If anything it actually had opposite result because I know people who slapped that set on back bar on their DDs so now instead of spamming inner rage they could just use stampede once or twice and they could do vet dungeons with it making their fake tanks even more effective.

    You are cherry picking. I have always accompanied the need for an AOE taunt with an increase in mob damage. Mobs should be 1-2 shotting DPS/heals. That WOULD slow speed running down becasue the tank would not be able to reliably hold all that aggro without a healer. So they would at the minimum have to move at the healers pace.




    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Amottica wrote: »

    But the lack of an Aoe taunt or that the design does not need an AoE taunt is not the cause of the issues that are mentioned in the OP.
    I never said they did. What I said was that the design of the game as it stands is what has led to speed running today (and ruining the new player experience).
    What allows for speed running are low damage adds. Adds were given low damage so healers and DPS could of tank while the tank does the boring job of maintaining aggro on one mob. Because of the base game design and power creep, now DPS can effectively tank non DLC normal dungeons and in many cases vet dungeons.
    This comes at the expense of the new player experience and their ability to listen to the lore and do the quest to get a skill point.
    Galeriano wrote: »
    More importantly, if Zenimax wanted to bring an end to all that is listed in the OP it can be done, easily done, without adding an AoE taunt. What proves my comment is correct is that the most challenging content in the game is done without AoE taunts.
    No, nothing is proven becasue as I have stated multiple times now to you that the discussion is not about whether or not dungeons have been completed over the course of 10 years. That is not what this thread is about, therefore using that as an answer adds nothing to the discussion.
    Galeriano wrote: »
    I did not reply to the rest because everything else is based on this one premise which is not correct.
    Nothing I wrote is incorrect. Its a logical consequence of the base game design and the power creep that has led us to where we are today.

    But, it just so happens that if the base game had been created where DPS and healers did not have to off tank (similar to how other MMORPGs are designed), and tanks had AOE taunts to control aggro of those mobs, the speed running issue would not be the issue it is today becasue tanks would still need their healer to succeed.

    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Amottica wrote: »
    I agree and the first two sentences sum up why tanking in ESO is more engaging than that of other MMORPGs.
    This is an opinion, and not one that many in the community share. I personally find ESO tanking pretty dull, especially becasue I do not have the toolset to do the job as I intend without spamming a taunt 12 times. It's not engaging, its monotonous.
    Amottica wrote: »
    Tanking in ESO is more engaging and requires a higher level of focus than other MMORPGs. I grew tired of the monotonous and repetitive tanking in other games because I could do it without paying much attention to the fight.
    Interesting, this is in contrary opposite of my experiences over 20 years in various MMORPG's. I found tanking much more enjoyable in other games.

    ESO's tanking is....I mean you have 12 buttons total. There really is not that much going on, especially becasue most of those buttons "buff" your class (which itself is extremely boring. I cant stand 20 second buffs).

    Tanking in ESO vs many other MMORPG's does not function all that different. You position the boss, move them out of AOE and go through your defensive rotation.

    Escept in other games, the tanks toolset is wider, greater, has more buttons to push and more utility (aoe taunts).

    This is not a case of "Less is more" this is a case of "less is less and not that great".



    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • AnduinTryggva
    AnduinTryggva
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    NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION IN AN MMORPG
    Tanks, DPS, Healing perform a very important function in an MMORPG outside of their respective roles, and that is non verbal communication.
    That is to say, when you see a tank, you know what his job is and what he should do. When you see a healer you know what their job is and what they should do and the same applies to a DPS. These rolls communicate to the player what the "job" is of their team mates.

    In ESO, due to the lack of an aoe taunt and the devs vision of "DPS and heals can off tank easy mobs" we run into the issue of this communication being muddled. Because where we can easily determine the roll of a fellow player, not every player can determine the strength of a mob, so some try to take on mobs they can't and get destroyed. This also runs into the issue of responsibility, who's responsibilty is it to tank that mob beating on a healer? The tank? The DPS? How long before someone comes and gets this mob off the healer? Ohh wait, healer is dead. This is realy fun in a no death run.

    FAKE TANKING IN ESO/SPEED RUNNING
    The current system by its design is what has led to "fake tanks" and or speed runs (both of which are almost universally hated).

    In World of Warcraft, even normal dungeon mobs will wipe the floor with DPS, there is no issue of speed running in that game like there is in ESO. This is because tanks can AOE taunt and must do so to control all the adds/mob packs. Only hunters with a tank pet and a warlock with a voidwalker can tank non hardmode dungeon and that requires crowd control by the hunter/warlock.


    TANK FUN AND RESPONSIBILITY

    Most tanks, at their core get a lot of their fun from tanking multiple mobs and staying alive. Its their dopamine rush in the same way big crits are for DPS or big crit heals for a healer. In ESO tanks are not given this luxury like their counterparts.

    Because tanking overall is not as satisfactory in ESO compared to many other MMORPGS, we see less tanks in game. Tanks, as everyone knows are already in short supply even in games where they are fun, and this is due to their responsibility as a "leader" in a run. Why make the situation worse? Because that is what has been done in ESO with its no aoe taunt philosophy. The leadership aspect would take some creative brainstorming to solve and not a topic of discussion for my post, but making tankin more fun is doable.

    PARTY SIZE CONTRIBUTIONS....or not....
    So, we have less tanks. You know what else we have? A 4 person party. WoW has 5 person parties, Everquest has 6. What this means is that less DPS are absorbed out of the queue pool increasing wait times and forcing players to take on "fake tank" roles because everyone hates queue times. These could be lowered if we had larger party sizes, but this would require harder hitting mobs and AOE taunting.

    I am not bashing the developers, I doubt many working on the game today had anything to do with ESO as it was being created years prior to 2014, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step (literally) into solving this issue. Get the skills into the game, get the players familair with them, allow for new tanks to take on their new found fun and roles. This will prepare the player base for further changes as they are rolled out with the goal being to reduce dungeon speed run issues and to create more fun/interesting play for tanking roles.

    EDIT: There are opposing viewpoints in this thread expressing their disagreement with my "opinon". My OP is not an opinion but logic based on decades of game design.

    You can read this for a greater understanding. I suggest you do so before commenting, else you are off topic.
    https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/2812748.2812769

    I have a question as a tank apprentice. Aren't there some sets for crowd controll (of mobs)? Ok they don't taunt as fas as I know but they pull. And there are skills that snare or immobilize mobs.
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    I have a question as a tank apprentice. Aren't there some sets for crowd controll (of mobs)?
    There are sets that work as a short duration crowd control, but most of them are DPS or healer based with few defensive attributes or have conditionals that do not always work for tanking.
    Ok they don't taunt as fas as I know but they pull. And there are skills that snare or immobilize mobs.
    Some of them will pull, but as soon as DPS damage them, the DPS will get the aggro and the duration of slows/stuns in the game are usually on the short end.

    For example. In WOW I played a hunter and I could CC a mob in a frost trap for 1 minute (PVE). I could also refresh it.
    So if there was a dangerous mob it was my job to CC it.

    Mages in WOW could sheep targets for CC, and it would also last a minute.

    ESO's form of CC is mild with short durations. So while a tank could use a set that gave a slow to a mob or a short stun, it would not last long enough to single target taunt all those mobs.

    And as I said, many of the CC are based on conditionals and might have timers associated. A timer in and of itself is not a problem with CC when that is all the ability does, but in ESO one is often doing damage with an ability to proc a slow or pull. Using that same ability again shortly after does not guarantee the desired CC.



    EDIT: I am not sure how updated this page is, but it shows some CC sets and how they work. There might be one that works into your build.

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Category:Online-Sets_with_Crowd_Control

    Edited by Pixiepumpkin on February 18, 2024 11:13AM
    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • LunaFlora
    LunaFlora
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    Void Bash from Vateshran Hollows is awesome for crowd control
    miaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).

    🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
    "Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
    🦬🦌🐰
    PlayStation and PC EU.
    LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
    LunaFloraBlossom on pc.
  • Ph1p
    Ph1p
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    Mobs should be 1-2 shotting DPS/heals. That WOULD slow speed running down becasue the tank would not be able to reliably hold all that aggro without a healer. So they would at the minimum have to move at the healers pace.

    That's what mobs already do in veteran difficulty, especially in DLC dungeons and across all trials. Normal difficulty is designed to be easy and forgiving, so that people can practice new roles and builds. Many people hesitate to tank because it puts so much responsibility on one's shoulders and any mistakes are immediately visible to everyone. Letting easy mobs 1-shot DDs and healers just raises the bar even more.

    Also, WoW has AoE taunts and it's not like speed running of low-difficulty dungeons doesn't exist there...

    Speed running is mostly a problem because two different expectations clash: One side has done the dungeon 100 times and wants to get the rewards quickly. The other is new to it and wants to experience the story. Both valid but incompatible objectives, which an AoE taunt doesn't resolve. A better solution is to make it easier for each side to find like-minded players. For example, allow people to pick a "slow-pace" flag when they queue for a specific or random dungeon.
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Ph1p wrote: »
    That's what mobs already do in veteran difficulty, especially in DLC dungeons and across all trials. Normal difficulty is designed to be easy and forgiving, so that people can practice new roles and builds.
    And this is also where people are not allowed to practice their roles and builds, nor complete quests due to speed running.
    Ph1p wrote: »
    Many people hesitate to tank because it puts so much responsibility on one's shoulders and any mistakes are immediately visible to everyone. Letting easy mobs 1-shot DDs and healers just raises the bar even more.
    I agree with your first point. Disagree with the second. More people have played wow by a longshot than ESO. Wow has also been out a decade longer than ESO and there has never been an issue in WOW low level dungeons with tanks being able to perform their roles.
    Ph1p wrote: »
    Also, WoW has AoE taunts and it's not like speed running of low-difficulty dungeons doesn't exist there...
    It does not exist, not to the same degree it does in ESO. In wow you will still complete any quests for the dungeon and bosses are often only opened once the previous boss has been delt with, this is not always the case in ESO.
    Ph1p wrote: »
    Speed running is mostly a problem because two different expectations clash: One side has done the dungeon 100 times and wants to get the rewards quickly.

    The other is new to it and wants to experience the story. Both valid but incompatible objectives, which an AoE taunt doesn't resolve.
    Which is why transmute crystals should be had through other means than daily dungeon runs. But then fewer would run dungeons becasue their collections tabs are already filled (which is why daily rewards are put in the dungeons in the first place).

    So if we cant remove rewards, what are the solutions?
    My suggestion is harder hitting mobs, gated progression (kill first boss before 2nd can be killed) and AOE taunts to help tanks with additional adds that can kill DPS or healers.

    A vet DPS group will still be able to to down the content fast for their 7 minute runs. And new players will get to expereince the lore and story as intended, along with getting their reward of a skill poiint.

    Ph1p wrote: »
    A better solution is to make it easier for each side to find like-minded players. For example, allow people to pick a "slow-pace" flag when they queue for a specific or random dungeon.
    I disagree. The population is already spread thin, this would only make dungeon queues longer. It's not an ideal solution at all.



    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Galeriano
    Galeriano
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    A matter of opinon. I enjoyed AOE tanking in WOW as did many others, and many have expressed their disapproval on these very forums becasue they lack an AOE taunt.

    It would be no more "silly" than AOE healing, which currently resides in game on a massive scale.
    Again, a matter of opinion. There is nothing "silly" about AOE taunting.
    It's a tool, like any other tool and has its use.

    However what IS silly, is spamming taunt 12 times to pick up all the adds as others have pointed out in this thread.
    I never said that. I never once said that. Go reread what I said. Its on the first page.


    You are cherry picking. I have always accompanied the need for an AOE taunt with an increase in mob damage. Mobs should be 1-2 shotting DPS/heals. That WOULD slow speed running down becasue the tank would not be able to reliably hold all that aggro without a healer. So they would at the minimum have to move at the healers pace.


    If You don't see fundamental differences between WoW and ESO than I don't what can I tell You. If You really enjoyed tanking in WoW that much than instead of thinking that ESO would be great if it would be turned into WoW You could just go back to playing WoW. Two different games with different combat systems and ruleset.

    There is lot of silly things about AoE taunts in ESO. They completly don't fit ESO combat. Why would You spam taunt 12 times? Use things accordingly and strategically and You don't have to spam taunts to keep enemies stacked on You.

    Yes You said it.

    You didn't answer my question. Did amount of fake tanks suddenly started to go down after AoE taunt was added with tormentor set? Also normal content in ESO is designed to be very easy.
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