Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
Everyone seems to be assuming, but the devs mentioned nothing about that. And the scribed bow skill had a tooltip that said "arrow". Singular. Not "arrows". So I am not convinced that everybody jumping to the "Bow AOE taunt!!!" conclusion is correct.
AOE taunting was added through the Tormentor set and many players love it. It's fun, shakes things up. Its not broken, its not overpowered.
The first point is correct in how it was designed but it was not due to the lack of an AoE taunt. An AoE taunt has never been added to the game because it is not needed.
The basis is not incorrect becasue the basis is about non-verbal communication to the player through defined roles (which ESO does not do as well as it's contemporaries) and regarding speed running its a logical concluision. I already spelled it out in my first reply to you.As such the rest is an assumption that does not correlate since the basis is incorrect.
But that is not what this thread is about if you actually read it.The solid fact that for almost a decade a great many tanks have successfully tanked all group content in ESO from the more mundane to the more challenging, all without an AoE taunt provides extremely solid proof that an AoE taunt is not needed in ESO. That is almost ten years of proof that is indisputable.
The proof is in the game, player experiences in the game and as I already stated, I spelled it out in my first post to you.Further, zero proof has been provided to back up the claim that fake tanking is a result of a lack of AoE taunt and there are a great many fights where the tank is required to hold agro or the group will wipe.
Kidgangster101 wrote: »
That's not true the devs can actually put hard stops at certain spots rather than allowing the entire zone to be pulled to a boss and kill everything together. So don't say nothing can be done when there are options just saying.
You left out the part of the equation that I have spelled out multiple times in this thread, that the AOE taking would be accompanied with harder 1-2 DPS/Healer shotting mobs. That is to say mobs would need to have their damage output scaled up so that it would kill DPS and healers in a hit or two.Some players run past the mobs mostly because they can move faster than the mobs. Adding an AoE taunt does not change how easy it is to skip the mobs which is why an AoE taunt is irrelevant to this.
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »You can read this for a greater understanding. I suggest you do so before commenting, else you are off topic.
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/2812748.2812769
So, basically you're gatekeeping this discussion until someone goes and reads a 14-page scientific discourse? Well, I did out of curiosity and I'm not impressed. Perhaps it expertly disseminates MMO gameplay from a microsociological perspective and for a non-gaming audience, but it contains no insights that any semi-experienced ESO player doesn't already know. If anyone doesn't want to read this from scratch, here's a summary:
Introduction:
As its intro states, this work is specifically about "the user interface, how it supports nonverbal communication between the game and the player, and how it facilitates coordinated action among players", using raiding in World of Warcraft as an example.
Chapter 1: Raiding in WoW
You can completely skip chapter 1, which just explains to non-gamers what WoW and raids are.
Chapter 2: The User Interface
You can also completely skip chapter 2, which explains at length how the user interface in WoW works, for example "that a few characters have red writing above their heads, marking them as enemies". The authors explain how visual and audio cues telegraph boss mechanics and indicate to each raid role what to do.
Chapter 3: From User Interface to Coordinated Action
Chapter 3 discusses how these UI cues translate to more or less coordinated group action and how a lack of voice chat can be limiting. It takes the authors four lengthy paragraphs to basically say this:
- MMO raids have defined group mechanics, that every player needs to recognize and react to. Each player also has to anticipate and take into account the actions of the other players, while still performing their own role as well as possible.
- To maximize raid performance, roles and performance become more important than the people. For example, healers focus on filling up health bars especially for tanks, while the people behind the health bar/the role become much less important.
- Since coordination is crucial, people need to pay attention to mechanics as well as anticipate and interpret other players' actions to be successful. When only relying on in-game cues without voice chat, this can be extra difficult.
- So if a player just screws around or doesn't coordinate with the group, the other players will get angry and possibly quit. Thus, players need to continuously assess the raid situation with their own role and the other roles in mind. Raids are most successful, when players' individual assessments are in agreement, which is especially helped by voice chat and third-party add-ons.
Chapter 4: Computer-Mediated Communication, Virtual Worlds, and Coordinated Action
This is where it finally gets interesting: Computer-mediated communication, symbolic interactionism, media synchronicity, and [insert more jargon here]. Except this whole chapter comes down to an obvious conclusion we all know: Voice chat is a very effective tool to complement existing modes of communication. Such insight, much wow... They also highlight how raid groups practicing positions before a boss fight is an example of "characters' bodies becoming visual learning tools" and an example of "creative communication". Except it's not even an example of purely non-verbal communication, because it's accompanied by the raid leader explaining everything in voice...
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »AOE taunting was added through the Tormentor set and many players love it. It's fun, shakes things up. Its not broken, its not overpowered.
The basis is not incorrect becasue the basis is about non-verbal communication to the player through defined roles (which ESO does not do as well as it's contemporaries) and regarding speed running its a logical concluision. I already spelled it out in my first reply to you.
But that is not what this thread is about if you actually read it.
The proof is in the game, player experiences in the game and as I already stated, I spelled it out in my first post to you.
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »You left out the part of the equation that I have spelled out multiple times in this thread, that the AOE taking would be accompanied with harder 1-2 DPS/Healer shotting mobs. That is to say mobs would need to have their damage output scaled up so that it would kill DPS and healers in a hit or two.
AOE taunting would need to be implemented for the tank to pick up these mobs.
But @Kidgangster101 solution would also work at solving the issue of speed running, although it would keep dungeon pacing at a narrow band, where as AOE taunting accompanied by harder htting mobs would still allow an elite coordinated group to blow through stuff fast.
It is based on my OP in order to solve issues in game, that thus far have not been addressed.1. It may have been fun for the small group that used it but that does not change the fact that ESO's group content is designed so that an AoE taunt is not required.
1. My post, as I have already iterated to you, is not about how many successful dungeon runs have happened.2. The fact that ESO does not have the forced rigid archetype roles that other MMORPGs have is not relevent to the lack of necessity of an AoE taunt it has been proven time and time again that content can be cleared like this and without an AoE taunt. Even so, any group can have their players adhere to the traditional archetype roles if they choose to which is another reason it is irrelevant to the AoE taunt discussion.
Once again, you are atteping to argue points I never made and change the topic/move goalposts.3. The comments used in the OP incorrectly suggest there are problems created by the lack of an AoE taunt. As such my comment to the solid fact that all the group content in ESO, including the most challenging difficulty levels, has been cleared successfully a great many times over almost ten years is very relevant.
The fact that new players are not completing their quests, and having bad experiences would suggest that dungeon runs need to be slowed down, one way to do this is through AOE tanking (because mobs would have to hit harder)It proves the fact that the AoE taunt is far from needed.
You need to read the thread in its entirety, I have already gone over this multiple times.4. What is suggested to be proof has no real correlation to the game not having an AoE taunt. I already pointed out how the suggested correlation is inaccurate.
I did not miss anything. My comment quoted above was made to another player's comments about hard stops being placed into the dungeons.
It was made in reply to what they said and in agreement with what they said.
Cooperharley wrote: »
thats largely probably where the point of this thread came from
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »AOE taunting was added through the Tormentor set and many players love it. It's fun, shakes things up. Its not broken, its not overpowered.
The basis is not incorrect becasue the basis is about non-verbal communication to the player through defined roles (which ESO does not do as well as it's contemporaries) and regarding speed running its a logical concluision. I already spelled it out in my first reply to you.
But that is not what this thread is about if you actually read it.
The proof is in the game, player experiences in the game and as I already stated, I spelled it out in my first post to you.
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »It is based on my OP in order to solve issues in game, that thus far have not been addressed.
And devs themselves said it was an oversight and they didn't want it in the game. What it does is making tanking dull and silly. If all someone needs to do to hold whole aggro is taping one ability 2-3 times per fight it's kinda silly. Current way of taunting with just single target taunts and pulls is adding way more dynamic and challenge intotanking and taking that away with AoE taunts would just make tanking boring.
Claiming that faketanking is a result of lack of AoE taunt is completly made up idea no matter how hard You want to belive in it. Did amount of fake tanks suddenly started to go down after AoE taunt was added with tormentor set? If anything it actually had opposite result because I know people who slapped that set on back bar on their DDs so now instead of spamming inner rage they could just use stampede once or twice and they could do vet dungeons with it making their fake tanks even more effective.
g0thiCiCecReaM wrote: »AOE tanking should be in the game, I spend more time taunting single targets and chasing people running away from me that have aggro on something than actually doing anything else when I tank unless I'm running tormentor on my templar.
The OP is about communication and how roles perform communication. That is in part what the paper discusses.Yes, I'm sure about that.
No mention of AoE taunts in the article.
There is no need to. I am discussing fundamentals, as is the paper.No mention of specific skills for roles in the article.
And player coordination takes place through non-verbal communication, which takes place by the roles a player takes on for the dungeon run.Instead they are correctly saying, that coordinating players is the major work on the road to success.
False accusation. I have never demanded anything. What I have done is point out issues in the game today and how e got here, and how we can solve it.Then you come in and demand the game to solve this issue for you by putting the players on rails.
Speed running that makes the new player experience inside of dungeons miserable. That is a very very serious issue.Dragonnord wrote: »Thing is there's no issue to solve.
Yes we can if it is at the expense of the new player experierence, which it is.Dragonnord wrote: »We can't force someone that went to Fungal Grotto 1000 times to not want to speed run it. I vote for letting that player speed run it, it's understandable that they don't want to be there more than 5 minutes.
Again, not at the expense of the new player experience.Dragonnord wrote: »We can't force a seasoned tank to tank trash that lasts 5 minutes because the two dps do 10k damage between both, and then 30 minutes in the first boss after wiping 10 times, and 1:30 hs. in the dungeon, that he/she usually completes in 10 minutes or less. I support that tank if he/she wants to swap gear to dps and solo the dungeon in minutes.
Again, not at the expense of the new player experience.Dragonnord wrote: »We can't force a healer to rez players 50 times in a dungeon because they keep dying to stupid. I support that healer if he/she wants to swap gear to dps and speed run the place.
I never said we should. But for the sake of a good community, they should.Dragonnord wrote: »We can't force two friends to teach mechanics to people that don't understand, or don't respond. "Hey dude! Are you there? Are you reading me?" So I support them if they want to run ahead and clean everything on their own.
Its a failed design because it allows for players to abuse other players in that they are not allowed to keep up with the story and in many cases do not get to complete their quests.Dragonnord wrote: »Speed runs will continue to happen and I'm fine with them.
And I have ZERO issues with organized groups speed running a dungeon. I never asserted I did.Dragonnord wrote: »That's why you can play with friends, that's why you can join guilds, that's why you can use organized groups in Discord if you aren't having luck with random groups.
I also say nicely, with no sarcasm. I 100% vehemently disagree because of the new player or low level expeirence.Dragonnord wrote: »So, nicely with a nice tone of voice (no sarcasm), I honestly think things should remain as they are.
Speed running was not an issue 10 years ago. And most long time players have already done the quests, already understasnd the story.Dragonnord wrote: »I was a new player too once, and I'm still here after 10 years, regardless good and bad situations, slow or speed runs.
They are just about all aweful. Especially if you are trying to do quests and listen to the story.Dragonnord wrote: »People need to take it easy. Maybe that run with a speed runner was awful, maybe next run is the best run ever.
I agree a story mode should be implemented if they do nothing else to solve this issue.Dragonnord wrote: »Still, if you want to solve speed runs, then add two different queues for dungeons, one that says "Slow runs, doors added to every single room of the dungeon (need to kill everything to advance rooms).
A matter of opinon. I enjoyed AOE tanking in WOW as did many others, and many have expressed their disapproval on these very forums becasue they lack an AOE taunt.And devs themselves said it was an oversight and they didn't want it in the game. What it does is making tanking dull and silly.
Again, a matter of opinion. There is nothing "silly" about AOE taunting.If everything someone needs to do to keep aggro on whole group of enemies is taping one ability 2-3 times per fight it's kinda silly. Current way of taunting with just single target taunts and pulls is adding way more dynamic and challenge into tanking and taking that away with AoE taunts would just make tanking boring.
I never said that. I never once said that. Go reread what I said. Its on the first page.Claiming that fake tanking is a result of lack of AoE taunt is completly made up idea no matter how hard You want to belive in it.
Did amount of fake tanks suddenly started to go down after AoE taunt was added with tormentor set? If anything it actually had opposite result because I know people who slapped that set on back bar on their DDs so now instead of spamming inner rage they could just use stampede once or twice and they could do vet dungeons with it making their fake tanks even more effective.
I never said they did. What I said was that the design of the game as it stands is what has led to speed running today (and ruining the new player experience).
But the lack of an Aoe taunt or that the design does not need an AoE taunt is not the cause of the issues that are mentioned in the OP.
No, nothing is proven becasue as I have stated multiple times now to you that the discussion is not about whether or not dungeons have been completed over the course of 10 years. That is not what this thread is about, therefore using that as an answer adds nothing to the discussion.More importantly, if Zenimax wanted to bring an end to all that is listed in the OP it can be done, easily done, without adding an AoE taunt. What proves my comment is correct is that the most challenging content in the game is done without AoE taunts.
Nothing I wrote is incorrect. Its a logical consequence of the base game design and the power creep that has led us to where we are today.I did not reply to the rest because everything else is based on this one premise which is not correct.
This is an opinion, and not one that many in the community share. I personally find ESO tanking pretty dull, especially becasue I do not have the toolset to do the job as I intend without spamming a taunt 12 times. It's not engaging, its monotonous.I agree and the first two sentences sum up why tanking in ESO is more engaging than that of other MMORPGs.
Interesting, this is in contrary opposite of my experiences over 20 years in various MMORPG's. I found tanking much more enjoyable in other games.Tanking in ESO is more engaging and requires a higher level of focus than other MMORPGs. I grew tired of the monotonous and repetitive tanking in other games because I could do it without paying much attention to the fight.
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION IN AN MMORPG
Tanks, DPS, Healing perform a very important function in an MMORPG outside of their respective roles, and that is non verbal communication.
That is to say, when you see a tank, you know what his job is and what he should do. When you see a healer you know what their job is and what they should do and the same applies to a DPS. These rolls communicate to the player what the "job" is of their team mates.
In ESO, due to the lack of an aoe taunt and the devs vision of "DPS and heals can off tank easy mobs" we run into the issue of this communication being muddled. Because where we can easily determine the roll of a fellow player, not every player can determine the strength of a mob, so some try to take on mobs they can't and get destroyed. This also runs into the issue of responsibility, who's responsibilty is it to tank that mob beating on a healer? The tank? The DPS? How long before someone comes and gets this mob off the healer? Ohh wait, healer is dead. This is realy fun in a no death run.
FAKE TANKING IN ESO/SPEED RUNNING
The current system by its design is what has led to "fake tanks" and or speed runs (both of which are almost universally hated).
In World of Warcraft, even normal dungeon mobs will wipe the floor with DPS, there is no issue of speed running in that game like there is in ESO. This is because tanks can AOE taunt and must do so to control all the adds/mob packs. Only hunters with a tank pet and a warlock with a voidwalker can tank non hardmode dungeon and that requires crowd control by the hunter/warlock.
TANK FUN AND RESPONSIBILITY
Most tanks, at their core get a lot of their fun from tanking multiple mobs and staying alive. Its their dopamine rush in the same way big crits are for DPS or big crit heals for a healer. In ESO tanks are not given this luxury like their counterparts.
Because tanking overall is not as satisfactory in ESO compared to many other MMORPGS, we see less tanks in game. Tanks, as everyone knows are already in short supply even in games where they are fun, and this is due to their responsibility as a "leader" in a run. Why make the situation worse? Because that is what has been done in ESO with its no aoe taunt philosophy. The leadership aspect would take some creative brainstorming to solve and not a topic of discussion for my post, but making tankin more fun is doable.
PARTY SIZE CONTRIBUTIONS....or not....
So, we have less tanks. You know what else we have? A 4 person party. WoW has 5 person parties, Everquest has 6. What this means is that less DPS are absorbed out of the queue pool increasing wait times and forcing players to take on "fake tank" roles because everyone hates queue times. These could be lowered if we had larger party sizes, but this would require harder hitting mobs and AOE taunting.
I am not bashing the developers, I doubt many working on the game today had anything to do with ESO as it was being created years prior to 2014, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step (literally) into solving this issue. Get the skills into the game, get the players familair with them, allow for new tanks to take on their new found fun and roles. This will prepare the player base for further changes as they are rolled out with the goal being to reduce dungeon speed run issues and to create more fun/interesting play for tanking roles.
EDIT: There are opposing viewpoints in this thread expressing their disagreement with my "opinon". My OP is not an opinion but logic based on decades of game design.
You can read this for a greater understanding. I suggest you do so before commenting, else you are off topic.
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/2812748.2812769
There are sets that work as a short duration crowd control, but most of them are DPS or healer based with few defensive attributes or have conditionals that do not always work for tanking.AnduinTryggva wrote: »I have a question as a tank apprentice. Aren't there some sets for crowd controll (of mobs)?
Some of them will pull, but as soon as DPS damage them, the DPS will get the aggro and the duration of slows/stuns in the game are usually on the short end.AnduinTryggva wrote: »Ok they don't taunt as fas as I know but they pull. And there are skills that snare or immobilize mobs.
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Mobs should be 1-2 shotting DPS/heals. That WOULD slow speed running down becasue the tank would not be able to reliably hold all that aggro without a healer. So they would at the minimum have to move at the healers pace.
And this is also where people are not allowed to practice their roles and builds, nor complete quests due to speed running.That's what mobs already do in veteran difficulty, especially in DLC dungeons and across all trials. Normal difficulty is designed to be easy and forgiving, so that people can practice new roles and builds.
I agree with your first point. Disagree with the second. More people have played wow by a longshot than ESO. Wow has also been out a decade longer than ESO and there has never been an issue in WOW low level dungeons with tanks being able to perform their roles.Many people hesitate to tank because it puts so much responsibility on one's shoulders and any mistakes are immediately visible to everyone. Letting easy mobs 1-shot DDs and healers just raises the bar even more.
It does not exist, not to the same degree it does in ESO. In wow you will still complete any quests for the dungeon and bosses are often only opened once the previous boss has been delt with, this is not always the case in ESO.Also, WoW has AoE taunts and it's not like speed running of low-difficulty dungeons doesn't exist there...
Which is why transmute crystals should be had through other means than daily dungeon runs. But then fewer would run dungeons becasue their collections tabs are already filled (which is why daily rewards are put in the dungeons in the first place).Speed running is mostly a problem because two different expectations clash: One side has done the dungeon 100 times and wants to get the rewards quickly.
The other is new to it and wants to experience the story. Both valid but incompatible objectives, which an AoE taunt doesn't resolve.
I disagree. The population is already spread thin, this would only make dungeon queues longer. It's not an ideal solution at all.A better solution is to make it easier for each side to find like-minded players. For example, allow people to pick a "slow-pace" flag when they queue for a specific or random dungeon.
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »A matter of opinon. I enjoyed AOE tanking in WOW as did many others, and many have expressed their disapproval on these very forums becasue they lack an AOE taunt.
It would be no more "silly" than AOE healing, which currently resides in game on a massive scale.
Again, a matter of opinion. There is nothing "silly" about AOE taunting.
It's a tool, like any other tool and has its use.
However what IS silly, is spamming taunt 12 times to pick up all the adds as others have pointed out in this thread.
I never said that. I never once said that. Go reread what I said. Its on the first page.
You are cherry picking. I have always accompanied the need for an AOE taunt with an increase in mob damage. Mobs should be 1-2 shotting DPS/heals. That WOULD slow speed running down becasue the tank would not be able to reliably hold all that aggro without a healer. So they would at the minimum have to move at the healers pace.