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Why AOE taunting should take place in ESO.

Pixiepumpkin
Pixiepumpkin
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NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION IN AN MMORPG
Tanks, DPS, Healing perform a very important function in an MMORPG outside of their respective roles, and that is non verbal communication.
That is to say, when you see a tank, you know what his job is and what he should do. When you see a healer you know what their job is and what they should do and the same applies to a DPS. These rolls communicate to the player what the "job" is of their team mates.

In ESO, due to the lack of an aoe taunt and the devs vision of "DPS and heals can off tank easy mobs" we run into the issue of this communication being muddled. Because where we can easily determine the roll of a fellow player, not every player can determine the strength of a mob, so some try to take on mobs they can't and get destroyed. This also runs into the issue of responsibility, who's responsibilty is it to tank that mob beating on a healer? The tank? The DPS? How long before someone comes and gets this mob off the healer? Ohh wait, healer is dead. This is realy fun in a no death run.

FAKE TANKING IN ESO/SPEED RUNNING
The current system by its design is what has led to "fake tanks" and or speed runs (both of which are almost universally hated).

In World of Warcraft, even normal dungeon mobs will wipe the floor with DPS, there is no issue of speed running in that game like there is in ESO. This is because tanks can AOE taunt and must do so to control all the adds/mob packs. Only hunters with a tank pet and a warlock with a voidwalker can tank non hardmode dungeon and that requires crowd control by the hunter/warlock.


TANK FUN AND RESPONSIBILITY

Most tanks, at their core get a lot of their fun from tanking multiple mobs and staying alive. Its their dopamine rush in the same way big crits are for DPS or big crit heals for a healer. In ESO tanks are not given this luxury like their counterparts.

Because tanking overall is not as satisfactory in ESO compared to many other MMORPGS, we see less tanks in game. Tanks, as everyone knows are already in short supply even in games where they are fun, and this is due to their responsibility as a "leader" in a run. Why make the situation worse? Because that is what has been done in ESO with its no aoe taunt philosophy. The leadership aspect would take some creative brainstorming to solve and not a topic of discussion for my post, but making tankin more fun is doable.

PARTY SIZE CONTRIBUTIONS....or not....
So, we have less tanks. You know what else we have? A 4 person party. WoW has 5 person parties, Everquest has 6. What this means is that less DPS are absorbed out of the queue pool increasing wait times and forcing players to take on "fake tank" roles because everyone hates queue times. These could be lowered if we had larger party sizes, but this would require harder hitting mobs and AOE taunting.

I am not bashing the developers, I doubt many working on the game today had anything to do with ESO as it was being created years prior to 2014, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step (literally) into solving this issue. Get the skills into the game, get the players familair with them, allow for new tanks to take on their new found fun and roles. This will prepare the player base for further changes as they are rolled out with the goal being to reduce dungeon speed run issues and to create more fun/interesting play for tanking roles.

EDIT: There are opposing viewpoints in this thread expressing their disagreement with my "opinon". My OP is not an opinion but logic based on decades of game design.

You can read this for a greater understanding. I suggest you do so before commenting, else you are off topic.
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/2812748.2812769

Edited by Pixiepumpkin on February 16, 2024 3:18PM
"𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
PC/NA
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Soriana wrote: »
    I main a tank, have done so since the game began. I have cleared every vet dungeon, vet 4 person arena, and every vet trial, with hard modes on a ton of them.
    I tanked in wow, SWTOR, Warhammer online and I rarely saw the issues I see in ESO, and I had more fun and I assume the group had more fun becasue of smooth dungeon runs.
    Soriana wrote: »
    Tanking is absolutely fine as it is and is a ton more fun having to prioritize targets to taunt as well as learning to work together as a group. As an aside, I pugged my way through dungeons to Undaunted 10 so am well aware of some of the pain points you are referring to.
    The lack of tanks in game would suggest otherwise. I am glad you are having a good time in game, I wish more tanks felt that way. Part of working together as a group, especially in a group finder situation is that nonverbal communication I spoke of earlier. Which the current game does not allow for to the same degree people are used to.
    Soriana wrote: »
    In my opinion, the issue is not a missing aoe taunt, the issue is a mix between the games learning curve and the fact that in-game tutorials are absolutely horrid that do nothing to teach people the nuances of grouping with others.
    I agree that the game has a a steep learning curve with one shot mechanics that most folks will not figure out unless they tab out and research boss fights. No game should ever require a player to tab out and research. It should be basic and built in.

    But that is why I go back to aoe taunting, it allows for the tank to fulfill their job without party support, outuside of healing (the one person who will understand mechanics the best, knowing full well they will be researching tanking before they even roll the toon).
    Soriana wrote: »
    The healer getting beat up in the back of the arena should have been taught to bring the add to the tank instead of backing away, and the same for the damage dealers.
    Standard MMORPG play has always been tanks hold aggro, ESO teaches tanks not to hold all the aggro. There is a disconnect here. AOE tanking would solve the issue, knowing full well the healer is not going to read about the fight before he enters.
    Because keep in mind, we are talking dungeons here. Things that people want to get in fast and get done for their dailies. No one is going to tab out to read the mechanics and when that is what the group is resorted to after multilple wipes, the parties often fall apart.
    Soriana wrote: »
    It is rather poor planning on the games part to rely on folks watching youtube videos to learn how to play their role effectively.
    Agreed and this is why I go back to allowing for greater nonverbal communication.
    Soriana wrote: »
    My two cents, for what it's worth.
    Thank you for the input.
    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • svendf
    svendf
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    OP you are 100% right. We do have the same system in FFxiv.

    You are touching on a subject, which are very unpopular in some circles - you are talking about better group dynamics. You touch on it yourself - raising group member from 4 to 5, which will require the content being harder, across the board (agreed). It will require some redesign of the dungeon content. I don´t see it will happen though, which is sad.

    I will actually go a bit further, by adding level synce in dungeons - really needed in nDungeons. By adding your idea into mine, you will get rid of fakeroles, speedrunners and que time for DD´s.

    I do see this system working everyday I play my main Mmo. You will add a "fun" part and a leading part to the tank role - 100% needed.
    At the same time this will make the healer role more important across the board.

    100% support this. Good post and idea.
    Edited by svendf on February 6, 2024 1:40PM
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Artim_X wrote: »
    All content in this game can be tanked without it so it's not necessary.

    - Enemies that should be taunted tend to be different from the common ones.
    - Speed running is a normal dungeon concept and an AOE taunt won't stop a player from skipping mobs. Normal dungeons in ESO are designed in a way that a group of 4 with random builds can clear while a properly designed solo build can easily clear with exception to some group mechanics.
    - I find tanking to be quite fun especially when it's a blue portal scenario. You'll definitely feel like the hero when you help a group get passed a difficult encounter. I like taunting priority enemies, snaring/rootingbothers, and pulling stragglers to me.
    - Increasing the party size for dungeons is unnecessary and as you mentioned would require the content to be adjusted to the change.

    At the end of the day there is nothing stopping a player from joining a guild or creating a group with the group finder to ensure a specific kind of run.

    Go re-read my post, I already addressed/debunked what you just wrote.
    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Vaqual wrote: »
    The problem with threads like these is really the expectation you have to begin with. People don't play dungeons to play with a tank, they don't need their tank to feel validated. Same goes for healers and DPS. People play to clear the dungeon. Which should be the main motivation.
    And the current system ensures tanks are not needed in normal dungeon runs, which means tanks are not being built/maintaned/played for harder content like vets or DLC vets that very much require a tank. It has nothing to do with validation, it has to do with ensuring enough tanks are being played. Make tanking more fun, more will play.

    WoW increased rewards for tanks, or tanks queuing. It would behoove ESO to do something similar. Either reward tanking gameplay or design a system that curates more tanks.
    Vaqual wrote: »

    Making people play tediously correct in a low stakes scenario isn't going to change anything.
    Incorrect. It creates a situation where more tanks are played.
    Vaqual wrote: »
    When the encounter is difficult enough people will adjust. But coincidentally, nothing is frowned upon more than demanding effort from players on these forums. People make at least one thread per week asking for another handout.
    This has absolutely nothing to do with "a handout" and everything to do with curating a proper dialog between tanks, DPS and healers along with lowering queue times.
    Vaqual wrote: »
    Everything is too difficult for someone. And, while I think the devs have the best intentions, it is not always the best for the game to give in to that.
    This has nothing to do with difficulty.

    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Vaqual
    Vaqual
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    Vaqual wrote: »
    The problem with threads like these is really the expectation you have to begin with. People don't play dungeons to play with a tank, they don't need their tank to feel validated. Same goes for healers and DPS. People play to clear the dungeon. Which should be the main motivation.
    And the current system ensures tanks are not needed in normal dungeon runs, which means tanks are not being built/maintaned/played for harder content like vets or DLC vets that very much require a tank. It has nothing to do with validation, it has to do with ensuring enough tanks are being played. Make tanking more fun, more will play.

    WoW increased rewards for tanks, or tanks queuing. It would behoove ESO to do something similar. Either reward tanking gameplay or design a system that curates more tanks.
    Vaqual wrote: »

    Making people play tediously correct in a low stakes scenario isn't going to change anything.
    Incorrect. It creates a situation where more tanks are played.
    Vaqual wrote: »
    When the encounter is difficult enough people will adjust. But coincidentally, nothing is frowned upon more than demanding effort from players on these forums. People make at least one thread per week asking for another handout.
    This has absolutely nothing to do with "a handout" and everything to do with curating a proper dialog between tanks, DPS and healers along with lowering queue times.
    Vaqual wrote: »
    Everything is too difficult for someone. And, while I think the devs have the best intentions, it is not always the best for the game to give in to that.
    This has nothing to do with difficulty.

    I wasn't saying that you are asking for handouts, but that every attempt at making the game harder is shut down.
    And yes it has to do with difficulty. As soon as playing a role correctly is required people will play the role. Bolstering the tool kit to do a job that a) can already be done and b) has no perceivable impact, will not encourage people to play more tanks. Making success depend on it will.
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Vaqual wrote: »
    Vaqual wrote: »
    The problem with threads like these is really the expectation you have to begin with. People don't play dungeons to play with a tank, they don't need their tank to feel validated. Same goes for healers and DPS. People play to clear the dungeon. Which should be the main motivation.
    And the current system ensures tanks are not needed in normal dungeon runs, which means tanks are not being built/maintaned/played for harder content like vets or DLC vets that very much require a tank. It has nothing to do with validation, it has to do with ensuring enough tanks are being played. Make tanking more fun, more will play.

    WoW increased rewards for tanks, or tanks queuing. It would behoove ESO to do something similar. Either reward tanking gameplay or design a system that curates more tanks.
    Vaqual wrote: »

    Making people play tediously correct in a low stakes scenario isn't going to change anything.
    Incorrect. It creates a situation where more tanks are played.
    Vaqual wrote: »
    When the encounter is difficult enough people will adjust. But coincidentally, nothing is frowned upon more than demanding effort from players on these forums. People make at least one thread per week asking for another handout.
    This has absolutely nothing to do with "a handout" and everything to do with curating a proper dialog between tanks, DPS and healers along with lowering queue times.
    Vaqual wrote: »
    Everything is too difficult for someone. And, while I think the devs have the best intentions, it is not always the best for the game to give in to that.
    This has nothing to do with difficulty.

    And yes it has to do with difficulty. As soon as playing a role correctly is required people will play the role.
    Which is why mobs should hit harder requiring a tank...
    Vaqual wrote: »
    Bolstering the tool kit to do a job that a) can already be done and b) has no perceivable impact, will not encourage people to play more tanks. Making success depend on it will.
    And AOE taunting will be required to pacify my previous comment.

    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Cooperharley
    Cooperharley
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    pelle412 wrote: »
    I've tanked in this game for 7 years and I've never needed an AoE taunt. Could it be useful? Yeah sure, but in my experience it's fine without it. ESO's lack of tanks is unrelated to the availability of an AoE taunt, it's more related to the perceived increase in exposure and fear of failure as well as tanks being rather boring to play outside of group content.

    I've tanked a lot in other games such as WoW and SWTOR as well and they are inherently very different with threat management systems which make gaining AoE threat easier, but tanks in those games are generally more fun to play as they are totally viable while doing quests or other repeatable activities.

    I don’t think it’s a question of, “is it needed.” More of, this would be very nice. I’ve tanked in every MMO I’ve played and frankly, the AOE taunt is more enjoyable. I’d rather focus on mechs and stuff than worry about single target taunting things. It just doesn’t feel as good in my opinion after 10 years in the game.

    We’ve gotten by and been fine without it, so it’s not needed, but I do think it’d be advantageous, fun, and more people would get into tanking if it was a thing.

    I agree with a previous poster that I’m really hoping that the 1H & shield ability allows for AOE taunting. Also, AOE taunting does not make ESO a WoW clone. It is all the other reasons that ESO is so fantastic that sets it apart from WoW. Not a single person starts playing ESO and says, “oh thank god!! Finally!! No AOE taunting!!” That’s such a silly notion.

    Fingers crossed!
  • RoseVex
    RoseVex
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    I think the easiest way of adding an aoe taunt in would be to edit the destro staff aoe for ice staves
    She who is only a little thing at the first, but thereafter grows until she strides on the earth with her head striking heaven.

    Sovali - AD Dunmer DK tank
    Vinicia - DC warden tank
    Viratha - AD Altmer sorcerer DPS
    Melicine - Breton templar healer
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Sluggy wrote: »
    As a once tank main, I'm just going to say AoE taunts would be the death of the role as anything but a brainless exercise. It's already pointless to bring a tank in most content as it is so let's not trivialize the role for those that still enjoy it in the little remaining content it has left.

    Read my post in its entirety, not just the title.
    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • ceruulean
    ceruulean
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    Also, AoE skills perform better in lag compared to single target skills. An AoE taunt would help people with high ping taunt more reliably. Right now endgame tanks debate over using Inner Fire or Frost Clench. If you barswap Clench too quickly before the projectile lands, particularly at max range, the taunt doesn't apply to the boss, but I've heard the same complaints with Inner Fire.

    Also, you can have different AoE shapes. It can be a straight line like the Arcanist beam, or an AoE centered around caster, or a cone. It is very fun to aim the AoE and to avoid taunting the wrong targets. DK and Warden are popular dungeon tanks because they have an AoE immobilize centered around caster, and doesn't require aiming, it only needs positioning. Other classes have to move out of the mob pack slightly to aim a conal immobilize.

    Right now as a tank, you're supposed to have the skills of a sniper to do your job. Lol. What kind of archetype is that? I thought tanks are supposed to be dangerous warriors with intimidating presence? The enemies are supposed to come to you. Save the sniping for the DPS.

    Aggro skills are supposed to emulate real life psychology. In PvP, if you want to draw aggro, there are multiple tactics you can use. A video of a supertank blocking an entire zerg is proof. In PvE, AI doesn't work like that, so it has to be programmed. An AoE taunt simulates the zerg rush. As much as people like to bash on PvP, tanking in PvP is actually fun and reflects the fantasy. PvE tanking is like playing a mob maid manually picking up trash by hand. It feels bad compared to other games that have vaccum cleaners. And I'm not talking about tab target games, I'm talking about action games.
    Edited by ceruulean on February 6, 2024 4:26PM
  • Braffin
    Braffin
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    Enforcing roles is wether needed nor wanted in a game, which specifically gives players the freedom to creatively build their toons for fulfilling various different tasks.

    An AoE-taunt isn't needed either and would do nothing to solve your "fake roles and speedrunner" issues. You tanked in swtor, you say? Then you know very well, that tanks are a scarce oddity outside of master flashpoints (because not needed) and that bioware changed lower tier flashpoints to be doable with 4 DDs.
    Never get between a cat and it's candy!
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.
  • Fkey
    Fkey
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    Posted elsweyr, will repeat as it is an overall mechanics design issue:

    1/ Tanks = Debuff bots (Pixel stack and hard taunt turns Boss into target dummy)
    2/ Healers = Buff bots (Pixel stack and heal becomes a spam button)
    3/ Dps = Kings and Queens of 2 finger typing
    Eso dungeons/trials are just figure out what mechanics can be ignored so Pixel stacking the target dummy can take place.

    3 reasons I PvP instead of bothering with the PvE in this game.
    (and with the current state of PvP......)
  • pupsas
    pupsas
    Yeaaa.... no. ZOS quite specifically wrote that there will be no AOE taunting in Elder Scrolls Online in patch notes when they removed the possibility with tormentor set. So unless they get a sudden and inexplicable change of heart its not going to happen.
  • ceruulean
    ceruulean
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    pelle412 wrote: »
    ESO's lack of tanks is unrelated to the availability of an AoE taunt, it's more related to the perceived increase in exposure and fear of failure as well as tanks being rather boring to play outside of group content... but tanks in those games are generally more fun to play as they are totally viable while doing quests or other repeatable activities.

    I hope the new Aeylied king mythic will help with this. People are already making meme unarmed builds, so if ZoS buffs it a bit, then tanks can throw it on for overland.
  • Elvenheart
    Elvenheart
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    I must be wrong, but I thought the option for an AOE taunt was going to be on that new scribing bow skill they demonstrated at the reveal.
  • ssewallb14_ESO
    ssewallb14_ESO
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    Agree 100%. If only there was a set in the game that solved these problems for people who want it while still having enough downsides that it maintain's ZoS vision for the game in more organized scenarios. Wouldn't it be silly if that existed for 10 years then got removed from the game?
  • Palumtra
    Palumtra
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    If your DPS knows which end of the sword to hold towards the enemy then those enemies you'd need the AoE for will die before they could cause significant or any damage.

    The "holy trinity" is distorted in ESO because how much damage an average DPS can pump out and can even endure (depending on class and setup) large amounts of damage.
    Edited by Palumtra on February 6, 2024 6:21PM
    PCEU - Tank main
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