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Why AOE taunting should take place in ESO.
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Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes there is. I'll lay it out for ya.There is no correlation between the lack of AoE taunt and the reasons why we have speed runs or fake tanks.
1. The game was designed with low damaging trash mobs for healers and DPS to off tank either as a result of the goal of no AOE taunting or as a pre-cursor to no aoe taunting.
2. Due to mobs not hititng hard, DPS can speed run through the dungeon, skipping and resetting trash and going straight to the boss. This prohibits new players and low level players and even high level players who have never visited that dungeon from completing the dungeon quest.
3. Speed running DPS are a direct result of their ability to off tank easy hitting mobs, which themselves were designed becasue AOE taunting was not put into the game (officially). If mobs could 1-2 shot DPS like in WOW, the tank would have to hold ALL aggro and hte best tool to do so is AOE taunting.
We can say this another way.
If mobs in a dungeon actually hit hard enough to kill DPS/healers, there would be no fake tanks, or rather fake tanking would die as early as it was born because it would not work.
Fake tanking is a direct result of tank not needing to hold all aggro, which then kept AOE taunting from being necesary.
But there is a shortage of tanks in game. This is uncontestable, and has been an issue in every single MMORPG. ESO is not immune from the same problems that plague other MMORPGs.Further, I have never found a lack of tanks in ESO. Many like myself avoid the GF and only tank for guilds and friends due to the low-end DPS we have experienced with GF groups.
Which is a direct result of this game being difficult to build for as evidence of the massive plethora of content creators to make "build videos" and their popularity. It's not a problem with the "low DPS" players, its a problem with the games design.That is the real problem with ESO pug groups.So the conclusion is there is zero need for an AoE taunt in ESO.
The conclusion is that ESO has a very confusing combat system that does not communicate properly to the player what any given players role is intended to be.
"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
Quethrosar✭✭✭✭sure AOE taunt could be useful with a few situations, but all tank needs to do is parse his taunting to get most of the trash.
what would be nice is auto highlighting mobs when you are aiming at them. hate when they are pixel stacked.
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sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »I doubt they will as well, but it does not change that in order to reduce fake tanking/speed runs (which gets in the way of many players trying to run the dungeon at a slower pace, especially to do their quests), these things need to happen.
Player behavior is driven by rewards. The rewards for fake tanking a random normal far outweighs any disadvantage. You can make a massive dent in fake tanks by removing or dramatically reducing the number of transmute crystals a random dungeon provides. Fake tanking doesn't happen much in for example WoW even in normal dungeons because a dps usually can't handle the incoming damage. ESO's combat and ability design is such that you basically have as much healing as you have resources, whereas in another game you may have a small self-heal that goes on a long cooldown after use.
I don't disagree and in fact covered much of what you said throughout the post.
But I disagree with "Far outweighs any disadvantage" because the disadvantage in most cases is a new player, new character not being able to complete their story quest because fake tanks keep running ahead. And the effect this has on that player can be as strong as quitting the game (seen it happen) or no affect at all, they just go on about their day. But its a big enough issue that it's not only commonly expressed here, reddit and other social media channels, we also see it daily in game.
This would be resolved if mobs hit hard like they did in wow. This would keep the fake tank from speeding ahead.
In order for mobs to hit harder like they did in wow, either DPS and healers need to become tanks (which would completely destroy role identity and game balance) or Tanks need to hold all mobs aggro.
In order for tanks to hold all mobs aggro, they need AOE taunts.
And I realize how much work this would require, its a complete rewrite of the combat system regarding dungeons and trials. Its not going to happen, but doing nothing can't happen either and so far there is a big ole lot of nothing happening on this front.
Its either that, or story mode so that new players can experience the game in the way it was meant to be.
Ok I'm jumping in here before I finish reading the entire thread because of one specific point.
You said fake tanks run ahead and prevent people from completing their dungeon quests. But that's emphatically not true. Real tanks do that too. It's a specific type of player that is just trying to get in and out as fast as they can, and is not role limited.
I have a couple of other comments to make.
As someone who started off as a tank in this game, who still tanks occasionally, and who tanks in other MMOs... in ESO the frustration I get while tanking has nothing, literally nothing, to do with the points that you presented as fact (though they are opinions, not fact).
My main frustration with tanking, is that so many DDs don't do damage. I don't queue as a real tank most of the time because I don't want to sit in vet wayrest 1 for 45 minutes.
Let me repeat again for you. The reason I find tanking to be unsatisfying is because the game teaches DDs how to do damage so poorly, that bosses take 4-5x as long as they should.
I'm fairly active in the PC NA endgame community and I'm definitely not alone in this sentiment. There are a lot of people who are good tanks and enjoy tanking, but who only tank in organized groups because then they can be sure their time will be respected. It has nothing, literally nothing, to do with what types of taunts are available.
An aoe taunt won't solve DDs being bad.
Not only that, but a good tank has everything stacked and cc'd within 3-4 gcds anyway, either through the use of bone armor (if a necro) or vateshran sword & shield set, or just being really really good with their chains (which taunt!). If you can't do that, you might need to examine your own gameplay within ESO's designed systems. It might be that you've got some improvement to do working within the existing system, rather than trying to change it.3 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
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Thank you for your understanding.0 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
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That goes without saying. I mean I never meant to insinuate that real tanks do not do the same, but it proves my point.Ok I'm jumping in here before I finish reading the entire thread because of one specific point.
You said fake tanks run ahead and prevent people from completing their dungeon quests. But that's emphatically not true. Real tanks do that too. It's a specific type of player that is just trying to get in and out as fast as they can, and is not role limited.
If mobs hit harder, hard enoguh that even a real tank would need focused healing by a healer, they would not run ahead either, they would need to wait for the group which is the crux of the issue, people running ahead.
But its not an opinon, I don't recall exactly what you are referring to/what I said, but I have seen many tanks, in this very forum complain about not having AOE tanking, or taking away tormentor. There is a long thead on it right now in the PTR section of the forum. So its fact that people are not happy, it does not mean that everyone is unhappy, but I never said that and it would be ludicrous to do so.As someone who started off as a tank in this game, who still tanks occasionally, and who tanks in other MMOs... in ESO the frustration I get while tanking has nothing, literally nothing, to do with the points that you presented as fact (though they are opinions, not fact).
I completly agree. Building a charater in this game is extremely frustrating. What seems like it should work, doesn't. and what seems like it should not work becomes meta. I have said those exact words in other threads.My main frustration with tanking, is that so many DDs don't do damage. I don't queue as a real tank most of the time because I don't want to sit in vet wayrest 1 for 45 minutes.
Let me repeat again for you. The reason I find tanking to be unsatisfying is because the game teaches DDs how to do damage so poorly, that bosses take 4-5x as long as they should.
And to expand on that comment. If DPS are not doing good enough DPS, would it not make more sense/be more prudent for the tank to hold ALL aggro, so that they could do their rotation? I mean part of the reason DPS fail in DPS is because they are running around busy with other stuff.
Is this not true? It is based on my observations going back 20 years between WOW, GW2 (dont get me started on the "No trintiy of early GW2", EQ2, SWTOR, Warhammer Online.
Allow DPS to DPS, and they will. I am not suggesting that AOE tanking would solve the issues overnight, DPS still have to be taught how to build. But it would help.
The scope of this thread is about dungeons, pugs mostly. In fact, nothing even has to change for vet trials even if AOE taunting was implemented. Just because its on the bar does not mean the content has to be desinged for it, or that it has to be used.I'm fairly active in the PC NA endgame community and I'm definitely not alone in this sentiment. There are a lot of people who are good tanks and enjoy tanking, but who only tank in organized groups because then they can be sure their time will be respected. It has nothing, literally nothing, to do with what types of taunts are available.
But would be useful for dungeons.
I don't like to call damage dealers who do low DPS as "Bad", that is unfair to them. The game is not easy to understand when it comes to creating a build. And its not always easy to acquire the necessary gear for meta builds.An aoe taunt won't solve DDs being bad.Not only that, but a good tank has everything stacked and cc'd within 3-4 gcds anyway, either through the use of bone armor (if a necro) or vateshran sword & shield set, or just being really really good with their chains (which taunt!). If you can't do that, you might need to examine your own gameplay within ESO's designed systems. It might be that you've got some improvement to do working within the existing system, rather than trying to change it.
I am not suggesing AOE taunting for my sake, but based on what I have seen. Do not make this about "ME" as so many others have in this thread. I am trying to come up with creative solutions to problems I see in game, nothing more, nothiing less.
Edited by Pixiepumpkin on February 16, 2024 6:51PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The game and tanking role are perfect as they are now.
Stop trying to make the game easier, and easier, and easier all the time.
It has perfectly worked for 10 years. I'm sure there are hundred thousands dungeons completed at all levels, hundred thousands trials at all levels too in 10 years, countless hardmodes, countless dungeons and trials trifectas, everything completed countless times by 4-man and 12-man groups... and suddenly, AOE taunt is needed.
Probably billions of enemies taunted and grouped by tanks in these 10 years...
No need for AoE taunt.
Edited by Dragonnord on February 16, 2024 10:58PM4 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
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That is not what this thread is about, please read it in its entirety.Dragonnord wrote: »The game and tanking role are perfect as they are now.
Stop trying to make the game easier, and easier, and easier all the time.
It has perfectly worked for 10 years. I'm sure hundred thousands dungeons completed at all levels, hundred thousands trials at all levels too in 10 years, countless hardmodes, countrless dungeons and trials trifectas, everything completed countless times by 4-man and 12-man groups... and suddenly, AOE taunt is needed.
Probably billions of enemies taunted and grouped by tanks in these 10 years...
No need for AoE taunt.
"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes0 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The developer's philosophy on tanking in ESO is quite clear on the matter.
Q: "Do you think AoE taunting would ruin the team's vision for tanking?"
A: "Yes, that is why we don't have AoE taunt. Tanking in ESO is not grab everything and tank everything all at once like it is in other games. It is choose the target that is the most deadly and get on it, and let the team deal with.." (Quote kinda cut off in the video snippet that was taken, but I can assume he meant have them deal with everything else)
https://clips.twitch.tv/FairPerfectStarlingWTRuck-I5tEU23y_dlUKxngPC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK2 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The developer's philosophy on tanking in ESO is quite clear on the matter.
Q: "Do you think AoE taunting would ruin the team's vision for tanking?"
A: "Yes, that is why we don't have AoE taunt. Tanking in ESO is not grab everything and tank everything all at once like it is in other games. It is choose the target that is the most deadly and get on it, and let the team deal with.." (Quote kinda cut off in the video snippet that was taken, but I can assume he meant have them deal with everything else)
https://clips.twitch.tv/FairPerfectStarlingWTRuck-I5tEU23y_dlUKxng
Thank you for the video. I am aware of what their vision is, but it has also created issues in game that need addressing and I am not seeing any one brining up any sort of creative solutions, so I thought I'd get the ball rolling so to speak.
Edited by Pixiepumpkin on February 16, 2024 6:59PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »But I disagree with "Far outweighs any disadvantage" because the disadvantage in most cases is a new player, new character not being able to complete their story quest because fake tanks keep running ahead. And the effect this has on that player can be as strong as quitting the game (seen it happen) or no affect at all, they just go on about their day. But its a big enough issue that it's not only commonly expressed here, reddit and other social media channels, we also see it daily in game.
That's not what I meant. The disadvantage for the fake tank is small to non-existent.
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Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »But I disagree with "Far outweighs any disadvantage" because the disadvantage in most cases is a new player, new character not being able to complete their story quest because fake tanks keep running ahead. And the effect this has on that player can be as strong as quitting the game (seen it happen) or no affect at all, they just go on about their day. But its a big enough issue that it's not only commonly expressed here, reddit and other social media channels, we also see it daily in game.
That's not what I meant. The disadvantage for the fake tank is small to non-existent.
Ohh you mean the difference between running with a fake tank vs a real tank is non-existent? Sorry, I am not following."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭After I don´t how many posts on this forum from people, who, could not finish quests in dungeos, because of game design.
This very person in the video, is member of the same dev team, who decided, it was more important to do a pull-in mechanic to a boss, than actually solve the problem.
apparently it was more important to get boss loot, than get the skill point.Edited by svendf on February 16, 2024 7:38PM1 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Ohh you mean the difference between running with a fake tank vs a real tank is non-existent? Sorry, I am not following.
If I choose to fake tank and I don't care what anyone else thinks, I get 10 crystals, a chunk of xp, and no negatives. If I wasn't very good, I might get chonked up a bit by a boss, but that's usually fine.0 -
Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
That is not what this thread is about, please read it in its entirety.Dragonnord wrote: »The game and tanking role are perfect as they are now.
Stop trying to make the game easier, and easier, and easier all the time.
It has perfectly worked for 10 years. I'm sure hundred thousands dungeons completed at all levels, hundred thousands trials at all levels too in 10 years, countless hardmodes, countrless dungeons and trials trifectas, everything completed countless times by 4-man and 12-man groups... and suddenly, AOE taunt is needed.
Probably billions of enemies taunted and grouped by tanks in these 10 years...
No need for AoE taunt.
"lack of an aoe taunt".
"this would require AOE taunting".
"I am not bashing the developers, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step...".
I'm not naive, and clearly noted the second intentions.
Nice try though.
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Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Ohh you mean the difference between running with a fake tank vs a real tank is non-existent? Sorry, I am not following.
If I choose to fake tank and I don't care what anyone else thinks, I get 10 crystals, a chunk of xp, and no negatives. If I wasn't very good, I might get chonked up a bit by a boss, but that's usually fine.
But do you not care if someone needs to go slow and do their quest?
For myself 10 transmute crystals are one thing (and the goal) but frankly not at the expensse of ruining someone elses gameplay because they want to do their quest."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »But do you not care if someone needs to go slow and do their quest?
For myself 10 transmute crystals are one thing (and the goal) but frankly not at the expensse of ruining someone elses gameplay because they want to do their quest.
It doesn't matter what you or I think, there are enough players that don't and you can't appeal to their conscience. You can redirect them by changing the rewards only.
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Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dragonnord wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
That is not what this thread is about, please read it in its entirety.Dragonnord wrote: »The game and tanking role are perfect as they are now.
Stop trying to make the game easier, and easier, and easier all the time.
It has perfectly worked for 10 years. I'm sure hundred thousands dungeons completed at all levels, hundred thousands trials at all levels too in 10 years, countless hardmodes, countrless dungeons and trials trifectas, everything completed countless times by 4-man and 12-man groups... and suddenly, AOE taunt is needed.
Probably billions of enemies taunted and grouped by tanks in these 10 years...
No need for AoE taunt.
"lack of an aoe taunt".
"this would require AOE taunting".
"I am not bashing the developers, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step...".
I'm not naive, and clearly noted the second intentions.
Nice try though.
You are cherry picking, because the discussion is about how roles communicate non-verbally to the player and roles that do not perform that role as expected (based on 20 years of MMORPGs setting standards), end up with problems in dungeon runs.
But more specifically how mobs that do not hit hard enough allow for tanks or fake tanks to speed run through the dungeon, ruining new players experiences. AOE taunt is part of this formula and you'll have to go back and read the thread for greater context, no reason for me to post what I already wrote."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »But do you not care if someone needs to go slow and do their quest?
For myself 10 transmute crystals are one thing (and the goal) but frankly not at the expensse of ruining someone elses gameplay because they want to do their quest.
It doesn't matter what you or I think, there are enough players that don't and you can't appeal to their conscience. You can redirect them by changing the rewards only.
You can change the rewards sure, but the reason for transmute in dungeon runs is to keep people running them now that we have collection tabs.
Before collection tabs, you had to constantly run dungeons to change gear up, that is no longer the case....now instead you run them to get transmute crystals, this is why transmute crystals are capped.
So, changing the reward is the less likely scenario becasue the goal is to keep people running the dungeons.
The options so far seem to be either:
A. A story mode so new players/new characters doing quests can do the quest at their leisure including listening to the NPC's and reading books.
or
B. Harder hititng mobs (like in WOW) that require a real tank that requires real heals and can not speed run. The tank would also need AOE taunts to ensure he gets all the aggro because that aggro can now 1-2 shot DPS.
OR
C. We do nothing and let the new player experience continue to be a miserable one."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Dragonnord wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
That is not what this thread is about, please read it in its entirety.Dragonnord wrote: »The game and tanking role are perfect as they are now.
Stop trying to make the game easier, and easier, and easier all the time.
It has perfectly worked for 10 years. I'm sure hundred thousands dungeons completed at all levels, hundred thousands trials at all levels too in 10 years, countless hardmodes, countrless dungeons and trials trifectas, everything completed countless times by 4-man and 12-man groups... and suddenly, AOE taunt is needed.
Probably billions of enemies taunted and grouped by tanks in these 10 years...
No need for AoE taunt.
"lack of an aoe taunt".
"this would require AOE taunting".
"I am not bashing the developers, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step...".
I'm not naive, and clearly noted the second intentions.
Nice try though.
You are cherry picking, because the discussion is about how roles communicate non-verbally to the player and roles that do not perform that role as expected (based on 20 years of MMORPGs setting standards), end up with problems in dungeon runs.
But more specifically how mobs that do not hit hard enough allow for tanks or fake tanks to speed run through the dungeon, ruining new players experiences. AOE taunt is part of this formula and you'll have to go back and read the thread for greater context, no reason for me to post what I already wrote.
Then what about dps that runs forward pulling everything and leaving everyone behind?
What about healers that don't heal not even a 1% of your health?
What about high level players that you see and say "Finally! A 2000 CPs player", and then you see they do zero damage?
What about high level players that don't care for low levels?
What about low level players that queue for high advanced dungeon without knowing a single mechanic? And on top of that they activate hard mode on the boss?
What about groups of friends that do their stuff and don't care about that forth since it's just a random guy?
What about the ones that mistreat players for their mistakes?
What about the ones that go afk and don't return?
What about the hundreds and hundreds of given situations?
It's not the game, or the lack of this or that dude, it's people, and Devs can't "fix" people.
Edited by Dragonnord on February 16, 2024 8:01PM5 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dragonnord wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Dragonnord wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
That is not what this thread is about, please read it in its entirety.Dragonnord wrote: »The game and tanking role are perfect as they are now.
Stop trying to make the game easier, and easier, and easier all the time.
It has perfectly worked for 10 years. I'm sure hundred thousands dungeons completed at all levels, hundred thousands trials at all levels too in 10 years, countless hardmodes, countrless dungeons and trials trifectas, everything completed countless times by 4-man and 12-man groups... and suddenly, AOE taunt is needed.
Probably billions of enemies taunted and grouped by tanks in these 10 years...
No need for AoE taunt.
"lack of an aoe taunt".
"this would require AOE taunting".
"I am not bashing the developers, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step...".
I'm not naive, and clearly noted the second intentions.
Nice try though.
You are cherry picking, because the discussion is about how roles communicate non-verbally to the player and roles that do not perform that role as expected (based on 20 years of MMORPGs setting standards), end up with problems in dungeon runs.
But more specifically how mobs that do not hit hard enough allow for tanks or fake tanks to speed run through the dungeon, ruining new players experiences. AOE taunt is part of this formula and you'll have to go back and read the thread for greater context, no reason for me to post what I already wrote.
Then what about dps that runs forward pulling everything and leaving everyone behind?
What about healers that don't heal not even a 1% of your health?
What about high level players that you see and say "Finally! A 2000 CPs player", and then you see they do zero damage?
What about high level players that don't care for low levels?
What about low level players that queue for high advanced dungeon without knowing a single mechanic? And on top of that they activate hard mode on the boss?
What about groups of friends that do their stuff and don't care about that forth since it's just a random guy?
What about the ones that mistreat players for their mistakes?
What about the ones that go afk and don't return?
What about the hundreds and hundreds of given situations?
I actually address most of your points throughout this thread, please I am asking nicely with a nice tone of voice to read through the thread, your concerns have mostly been addressed.Dragonnord wrote: »It's not the game, or the lack of this or that dude, it's people, and Devs can't "fix" people.
It's all in the design. If the design of the dungeon/combat/class roles etc prohibit a player from doing xyz, then they wont do xyz.
You ever play WoW? Last I played it, if you aggro a mob in a dungeon, it stays aggroed. There is no resetting. You can't run through packs and packs of mobs without dying. Its for the most part impossible.
If the same was done here, you'd solve speed runs. But in order to increase mob damage/aggro range etc and make it work, tanks need to be able to hold onto those mobs (not all of them, but each trash group), that is where the AOE taunt comes in.
We are clearly never going to see eye to eye, so lets leave my solutions here.
How would YOU solve the speed run problem? (and it is a problem)
How would YOU ensure new players get a good experience in game, I mean fresh players with only half a day on their plate. How would you ensure they get a proper dungeon run, where they can do their quest, listen to the story etc?
The problem is solvable, but how would you go about solving this issue?
Edited by Pixiepumpkin on February 16, 2024 9:35PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Dragonnord wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Dragonnord wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
That is not what this thread is about, please read it in its entirety.Dragonnord wrote: »The game and tanking role are perfect as they are now.
Stop trying to make the game easier, and easier, and easier all the time.
It has perfectly worked for 10 years. I'm sure hundred thousands dungeons completed at all levels, hundred thousands trials at all levels too in 10 years, countless hardmodes, countrless dungeons and trials trifectas, everything completed countless times by 4-man and 12-man groups... and suddenly, AOE taunt is needed.
Probably billions of enemies taunted and grouped by tanks in these 10 years...
No need for AoE taunt.
"lack of an aoe taunt".
"this would require AOE taunting".
"I am not bashing the developers, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step...".
I'm not naive, and clearly noted the second intentions.
Nice try though.
You are cherry picking, because the discussion is about how roles communicate non-verbally to the player and roles that do not perform that role as expected (based on 20 years of MMORPGs setting standards), end up with problems in dungeon runs.
But more specifically how mobs that do not hit hard enough allow for tanks or fake tanks to speed run through the dungeon, ruining new players experiences. AOE taunt is part of this formula and you'll have to go back and read the thread for greater context, no reason for me to post what I already wrote.
Then what about dps that runs forward pulling everything and leaving everyone behind?
What about healers that don't heal not even a 1% of your health?
What about high level players that you see and say "Finally! A 2000 CPs player", and then you see they do zero damage?
What about high level players that don't care for low levels?
What about low level players that queue for high advanced dungeon without knowing a single mechanic? And on top of that they activate hard mode on the boss?
What about groups of friends that do their stuff and don't care about that forth since it's just a random guy?
What about the ones that mistreat players for their mistakes?
What about the ones that go afk and don't return?
What about the hundreds and hundreds of given situations?
I actually address most of your points throughout this thread, please I am asking nicely with a nice tone of voice to read through the thread, your concerns have mostly been addressed.Dragonnord wrote: »It's not the game, or the lack of this or that dude, it's people, and Devs can't "fix" people.
It's all in the design. If the design of the dungeon/combat/class roles etc prohibit a player from doing xyz, then they wont do xyz.
You ever play WoW? Last I played it, if you aggro a mob in a dungeon, it stays aggroed. There is no resetting. You can't run through packs and packs of mobs without dying. Its for the most part impossible.
If the same was done here, you'd solve speed runs. But in order to increase mob damage/aggro range etc and make it work, tanks need to be able to hold onto those mobs (not all of them, but each trash group), that is where the AOE taunt comes in.
We are clearly never going to see eye to eye, so lets leave my solutions here.
How would YOU solve the speed run problem? (and it is a problem)
How would YOU ensure new players get a good experience in game, I mean fresh players with only half a day on their plate. How would you ensure they get a proper dungeon run, where they can do their quest, listen to the story etc?
The problem is solvable, but how would you go about solving this issue?
Thing is there's no issue to solve.
We can't force someone that went to Fungal Grotto 1000 times to not want to speed run it. I vote for letting that player speed run it, it's understandable that they don't want to be there more than 5 minutes.
We can't force a seasoned tank to tank trash that lasts 5 minutes because the two dps do 10k damage between both, and then 30 minutes in the first boss after wiping 10 times, and 1:30 hs. in the dungeon, that he/she usually completes in 10 minutes or less. I support that tank if he/she wants to swap gear to dps and solo the dungeon in minutes.
We can't force a healer to rez players 50 times in a dungeon because they keep dying to stupid. I support that healer if he/she wants to swap gear to dps and speed run the place.
We can't force two friends to teach mechanics to people that don't understand, or don't respond. "Hey dude! Are you there? Are you reading me?" So I support them if they want to run ahead and clean everything on their own.
Speed runs will continue to happen and I'm fine with them.
That's why you can play with friends, that's why you can join guilds, that's why you can use organized groups in Discord if you aren't having luck with random groups.
So, nicely with a nice tone of voice (no sarcasm), I honestly think things should remain as they are.
I was a new player too once, and I'm still here after 10 years, regardless good and bad situations, slow or speed runs.
People need to take it easy. Maybe that run with a speed runner was awful, maybe next run is the best run ever.
Still, if you want to solve speed runs, then add two different queues for dungeons, one that says "Slow runs, doors added to every single room of the dungeon (need to kill everything to advance rooms).
And the other queue is for regular type of dungeons, like now, where you know anything can happen.
And so it'd be players choice what style of dungeon they want to queue for.
Edited by Dragonnord on February 16, 2024 11:08PM4 -
Serpari✭✭✭I used to be a healer and tank main in FFXIV. Just started to dip my toes into tanking here in ESO.
What I would like more than anything is an improvement to the aggro/taunt UI in the first place. ESO doesn't have native UI to show me who I've aggro/taunted and/or a progress bar to see when I'm starting to lose that aggro/taunt to DPS, or the current party order of who's holding the most aggro/taunt versus me. In FFXIV all I have to do is look at my party list and immediately see ah, okay, I have the aggro of the boss currently (I'm the Gladiator marked with an A), but the Pugilist is about to overtake me on aggro/taunt (look at his bar below his job icon), better use an aggro/taunt ability.
There are so many UI QoL things like that ESO lacks that baffles me. NGL, I love that with FFXIV I actually don't need add-ons to play my role competently, it's all right there in their vanilla UI. I think ESO would benefit from something similar. As it stands, its UI is painfully primitive and doesn't supply me with the information I need to play my roles competently. I love tanking and healing, but sometimes it feels like I'm fighting against the game more than the mobs or the PUGs.
I noticed a couple of months ago that they added waymarks we can mark other players and/or companions with, and that's great. I want more changes like this, I no longer lose Bastian in dolmens/harrowstorms/volcanic vents and has made my job as a DPS easier.
Also, this game needs a story mode for dungeons. You can do it like FFXIV, not allow anyone to start the fight until they get pass the talking at the beginning, not allow anyone to leave until whoever has the quest turns in the quest. Add hard stops until mobs are cleared after reaching certain points in the map. You can up the rewards so people will be willing to run this mode. As it stands leveling Undaunted skill line is frustrating when multiple times I haven't been allowed to turn in my quest before I was kicked out, because I need to back trace to talk to a NPC but I'll get into a battle and creamed cause everyone else has left, etcetera. Up the rewards for this mode, like extra keys and/or transmute crystals, more EXP, something. Make it enticing. FFXIV gives you extra experience and materials if someone's new to the dungeon and you complete the dungeon at a reasonable time.Edited by Serpari on February 17, 2024 12:07AM
★☽
The bird of Hermes is my name
Eating my wings to make me tame1 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Many of you say that you prefer ESO tanking the way that it is and without an aoe taunt — how does a set like Tormentor detract from this? Those who want an aoe taunt sacrifice a five-piece bonus to do so. All of you using the single target taunt abilities will instead be wearing sets that better keep you alive and/or better buff your party. So your way of playing was already better — what did it hurt to have an aoe taunt set for casual tanks?3 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »But do you not care if someone needs to go slow and do their quest?
For myself 10 transmute crystals are one thing (and the goal) but frankly not at the expensse of ruining someone elses gameplay because they want to do their quest.
It doesn't matter what you or I think, there are enough players that don't and you can't appeal to their conscience. You can redirect them by changing the rewards only.
That's not true the devs can actually put hard stops at certain spots rather than allowing the entire zone to be pulled to a boss and kill everything together. So don't say nothing can be done when there are options just saying.1 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dragonnord wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Dragonnord wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
That is not what this thread is about, please read it in its entirety.Dragonnord wrote: »The game and tanking role are perfect as they are now.
Stop trying to make the game easier, and easier, and easier all the time.
It has perfectly worked for 10 years. I'm sure hundred thousands dungeons completed at all levels, hundred thousands trials at all levels too in 10 years, countless hardmodes, countrless dungeons and trials trifectas, everything completed countless times by 4-man and 12-man groups... and suddenly, AOE taunt is needed.
Probably billions of enemies taunted and grouped by tanks in these 10 years...
No need for AoE taunt.
"lack of an aoe taunt".
"this would require AOE taunting".
"I am not bashing the developers, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step...".
I'm not naive, and clearly noted the second intentions.
Nice try though.
You are cherry picking, because the discussion is about how roles communicate non-verbally to the player and roles that do not perform that role as expected (based on 20 years of MMORPGs setting standards), end up with problems in dungeon runs.
But more specifically how mobs that do not hit hard enough allow for tanks or fake tanks to speed run through the dungeon, ruining new players experiences. AOE taunt is part of this formula and you'll have to go back and read the thread for greater context, no reason for me to post what I already wrote.
Then what about dps that runs forward pulling everything and leaving everyone behind?
What about healers that don't heal not even a 1% of your health?
What about high level players that you see and say "Finally! A 2000 CPs player", and then you see they do zero damage?
What about high level players that don't care for low levels?
What about low level players that queue for high advanced dungeon without knowing a single mechanic? And on top of that they activate hard mode on the boss?
What about groups of friends that do their stuff and don't care about that forth since it's just a random guy?
What about the ones that mistreat players for their mistakes?
What about the ones that go afk and don't return?
What about the hundreds and hundreds of given situations?
It's not the game, or the lack of this or that dude, it's people, and Devs can't "fix" people.
What about low level players that queue for high advanced dungeon without knowing a single mechanic? And on top of that they activate hard mode on the boss?
This one. I can't ever explain how the community expects new players to know everything before running the dungeon. I for one never watched 1 spoiler before hand and I learned as I went. If others had a problem with that they can kick rocks to be fair. A group of individuals had to complete a dungeon/hardmode at least once blind before any guide is ever released. I won't sit here and not pick the rest but the fact that this is the normal on a MMORPG is wild.1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
Yes there is. I'll lay it out for ya.There is no correlation between the lack of AoE taunt and the reasons why we have speed runs or fake tanks.
1. The game was designed with low damaging trash mobs for healers and DPS to off tank either as a result of the goal of no AOE taunting or as a pre-cursor to no aoe taunting.
2. Due to mobs not hititng hard, DPS can speed run through the dungeon, skipping and resetting trash and going straight to the boss. This prohibits new players and low level players and even high level players who have never visited that dungeon from completing the dungeon quest.
3. Speed running DPS are a direct result of their ability to off tank easy hitting mobs, which themselves were designed becasue AOE taunting was not put into the game (officially). If mobs could 1-2 shot DPS like in WOW, the tank would have to hold ALL aggro and hte best tool to do so is AOE taunting.
We can say this another way.
If mobs in a dungeon actually hit hard enough to kill DPS/healers, there would be no fake tanks, or rather fake tanking would die as early as it was born because it would not work.
Fake tanking is a direct result of tank not needing to hold all aggro, which then kept AOE taunting from being necesary.
The first point is correct in how it was designed but it was not due to the lack of an AoE taunt. An AoE taunt has never been added to the game because it is not needed. As such the rest is an assumption that does not correlate since the basis is incorrect.
The solid fact that for almost a decade a great many tanks have successfully tanked all group content in ESO from the more mundane to the more challenging, all without an AoE taunt provides extremely solid proof that an AoE taunt is not needed in ESO. That is almost ten years of proof that is indisputable.
Further, zero proof has been provided to back up the claim that fake tanking is a result of a lack of AoE taunt and there are a great many fights where the tank is required to hold agro or the group will wipe.
2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »But do you not care if someone needs to go slow and do their quest?
For myself 10 transmute crystals are one thing (and the goal) but frankly not at the expensse of ruining someone elses gameplay because they want to do their quest.
It doesn't matter what you or I think, there are enough players that don't and you can't appeal to their conscience. You can redirect them by changing the rewards only.
That's not true the devs can actually put hard stops at certain spots rather than allowing the entire zone to be pulled to a boss and kill everything together. So don't say nothing can be done when there are options just saying.
and I think they should. There are hard stops on some bosses with some hard stops that were added. The final boss is not accessible in Spindleclutch II until the previous boss is downed. I have heard that the Gargoyle boss could be skipped earlier in the game but it has a hard stop in the current design. Both versions of Wayrest have hard stops on multiple bosses.
Some players run past the mobs mostly because they can move faster than the mobs. Adding an AoE taunt does not change how easy it is to skip the mobs which is why an AoE taunt is irrelevant to this.
0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭I used to be a healer and tank main in FFXIV. Just started to dip my toes into tanking here in ESO.
What I would like more than anything is an improvement to the aggro/taunt UI in the first place. ESO doesn't have native UI to show me who I've aggro/taunted and/or a progress bar to see when I'm starting to lose that aggro/taunt to DPS, or the current party order of who's holding the most aggro/taunt versus me. In FFXIV all I have to do is look at my party list and immediately see ah, okay, I have the aggro of the boss currently (I'm the Gladiator marked with an A), but the Pugilist is about to overtake me on aggro/taunt (look at his bar below his job icon), better use an aggro/taunt ability.
There are so many UI QoL things like that ESO lacks that baffles me. NGL, I love that with FFXIV I actually don't need add-ons to play my role competently, it's all right there in their vanilla UI. I think ESO would benefit from something similar. As it stands, its UI is painfully primitive and doesn't supply me with the information I need to play my roles competently. I love tanking and healing, but sometimes it feels like I'm fighting against the game more than the mobs or the PUGs.
I noticed a couple of months ago that they added waymarks we can mark other players and/or companions with, and that's great. I want more changes like this, I no longer lose Bastian in dolmens/harrowstorms/volcanic vents and has made my job as a DPS easier.
Also, this game needs a story mode for dungeons. You can do it like FFXIV, not allow anyone to start the fight until they get pass the talking at the beginning, not allow anyone to leave until whoever has the quest turns in the quest. You can up the rewards so people will be willing to run this mode. As it stands leveling Undaunted skill line is frustrating when multiple times I haven't been allowed to turn in my quest before I was kicked out, because I need to back trace to talk to a NPC but I'll get into a battle and creamed cause everyone else has left, etcetera. Up the rewards for this mode, like extra keys and/or transmute crystals, more EXP, something. Make it enticing. FFXIV gives you extra experience and materials if someone's new to the dungeon and you complete the dungeon at a reasonable time.
Hi there.
I know where you are coming from xD
Before going further. I have over 900 hours in FFXIV (post EndWalker), and FFXIV are my main MMO now.
I know you want all well. In FFXIV we have aoe taunt, which we use in a wall to wall pull and tank stance to keep agro, which can be swiched on and off (and other tools), as you know. OP suggest a AOE staunt to avoid situations we don´t have in FFXIV (skiping, speedrunning, fake roles and what not).
You have seen how the responce have been. There are players in the ESO community, who would like to keep it as it is, because it would not give them the benefits they have as of now. It´s not how we have it in FFXIV, where a Sprout (a new player), is very important, when it come to progression, getting into the community and learn the job/jobs. We see to that every new Sprout have a good esperience, treat them well, so they will do the same to other new players, when they encounter them, and it is working.
The last time I saw any chat going on, was the last trial in post Shadowbringer, before continue to Endwalker - Seat Of Sacrifies, which is a pug killer and hard to clear if you don´t get help from outside. We just know what to do according to our role/job (OP do mention non verbal communication).
I see you are lvl 19 in the screen shot, but may be a lvl 60 or a lvl 90 as I am. We have level synce as you know. Nothing like that in ESO. We have to do all the mechanics. Also, we have to change our rotation on the fly, when we go into a lower level dungeon. Going into lvl 20 or 50 dungeons/trials, even raids will change our rotation.
You mention higher rewards helping new players. It does not exsist in ESO and if implemented in ESO, the first step would to go along the line OP is suggesting.
In FFXIV we have these mechanics integrated into the system, like we have in Duty Roulettes or Mentor Roulettes. The higher level you are at, and the lower the instans is, the higher the rewards.
There are systems inplace so players have a chance to progress through the MSQ, which is very important later on in the MSQ, when it´s getting much harder.
I have seen, what happens, when a Tank in FFXIV pulls a group, which is too big xD or run ahead without a healer. The good thing is they will not do that twice xD. I have seen once a DD, who went ahead (a new player), and stayed by the group for the rest of the dungeons. People learn fast, if they run ahead as a tank or healer, they can wipe the group because of level synce.
Anyway. I hope you will enjoy ESO and not encounter too much of the bad thing this game have to offer.
Good Luck
Edited by svendf on February 17, 2024 1:31AM0 -
Serpari✭✭✭Hi there.
I know where you are coming from xD
Before going further. I have over 900 hours in FFXIV (post EndWalker), and FFXIV are my main MMO now.
I know you want all well. In FFXIV we have aoe taunt, which we use in a wall to wall pull and tank stance to keep agro, which can be swiched on and off (and other tools), as you know. OP suggest a AOE staunt to avoid situations we don´t have in FFXIV (skiping, speedrunning, fake roles and what not).
You have seen how the responce have been. There are players in the ESO community, who would like to keep it as it is, because it would not give them the benefits they have as of now. It´s not how we have it in FFXIV, where a Sprout (a new player), is very important, when it come to progression, getting into the community and learn the job/jobs. We see to that every new Sprout have a good esperience, treat them well, so they will do the same to other new players, when they encounter them, and it is working.
The last time I saw any chat going on, was the last trial in post Shadowbringer, before continue to Endwalker - Seat Of Sacrifies, which is a pug killer and hard to clear if you don´t get help from outside. We just know what to do according to our role/job (OP do mention non verbal communication).
I see you are lvl 19 in the screen shot, but may be a lvl 60 or a lvl 90 as I am. We have level synce as you know. Nothing like that in ESO. We have to do all the mechanics. Also, we have to change our rotation on the fly, when we go into a lower level dungeon. Going into lvl 20 or 50 dungeons/trials, even raids will change our rotation.
You mention higher rewards helping new players. It does not exsist in ESO and if implemented in ESO, the first step would to go along the line OP is suggesting.
In FFXIV we have these mechanics integrated into the system, like we have in Duty Roulettes or Mentor Roulettes. The higher level you are at, and the lower the instans is, the higher the rewards.
There are systems inplace so players have a chance to progress through the MSQ, which is very important later on in the MSQ, when it´s getting much harder.
I have seen, what happens, when a Tank in FFXIV pulls a group, which is too big xD or run ahead without a healer. The good thing is they will not do that twice xD. I have seen once a DD, who went ahead (a new player), and stayed by the group for the rest of the dungeons. People learn fast, if they run ahead as a tank or healer, they can wipe the group because of level synce.
Anyway. I hope you will enjoy ESO and not encounter too much of the bad thing this game have to offer.
Good Luck
Hey, this is just some screenshot I grabbed from the internet. I'm actually a 1.0 player and up to endgame. Raid, Savages, you name it, I've done it. Aside from Ultimates, because I've never had the time to commit like that.
NGL my new player experience was miserable, so I'm always trying to think up of new ways to improve the experience here. It's why I tank and heal, I can actually lead.
Overall I like ESO more than I like FFXIV, so I want to see it thrive.
★☽
The bird of Hermes is my name
Eating my wings to make me tame0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭@Serpari
I never play 1.0 I believe I once was told 1.0 never had Savage. Savage came later on in 2.0 and Stormblood: Omega Deltascape, but I could be wrong, which is the first Savage raid to enter after unlock.
Screen shot from internet. Hahaha didn´t see that coming. Pretty fine with me.
Enjoy your time in ESOEdited by svendf on February 17, 2024 3:17AM0