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Why AOE taunting should take place in ESO.
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BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Btw. I think the greatest compromise here would to place an AOE taunt on one of the sword and shield’s ultimate morphs.
It is a low cost ultimate so could be ready to save the group pretty regularly and yet as an ultimate wouldn’t be a constant crutch.
You could set like:
“Aggros all creatures within 10 meters of player for duration of effect.”
So it’d be a 7 second AOE taunt during which every attack is blocked. I think that would be a perfect new tank learning ultimate.Edited by BejaProphet on February 6, 2024 7:40PMRoyal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest1 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »As a once tank main, I'm just going to say AoE taunts would be the death of the role as anything but a brainless exercise. It's already pointless to bring a tank in most content as it is so let's not trivialize the role for those that still enjoy it in the little remaining content it has left.
Read my post in its entirety, not just the title.
Against my better judgement I went back and did. My point still stands.
The issue isn't a fundamental flaw of the initial design because this didn't used to be an issue. DPS didn't used to have 30k hp, 30k armor and be able to do 75k+ DPS. They had 15k hp, 12k armor and if they cracked 20k DPS there were considered pretty damn good. This is a combination of issues including the devs making many small changes(that quite a number of us often warned them about way in advance) that culminated in absolutely massive power creep.
To their credit they did actually try to correct for this but.... the player base hated that even more. That's another major factor. They long-ago pivoted to a different audience which is why many tanks like myself just don't bother anymore. Was it a bad move? Well, I guess being Zenimax's most profitable product that even surpasses Skyrim I guess I can't say it is but it sure is obvious I'm not the person they are making the game for.
Edited by Sluggy on February 6, 2024 8:19PM5 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »As a once tank main, I'm just going to say AoE taunts would be the death of the role as anything but a brainless exercise. It's already pointless to bring a tank in most content as it is so let's not trivialize the role for those that still enjoy it in the little remaining content it has left.
Read my post in its entirety, not just the title.
Against my better judgement I went back and did. My point still stands.
The issue isn't a fundamental flaw of the initial design because this didn't used to be an issue. DPS didn't used to have 30k hp, 30k armor and be able to do 75k+ DPS. They had 15k hp, 12k armor and if they cracked 20k DPS there were considered pretty damn good. This is a combination of issues including the devs making many small changes(that quite a number of us often warned them about way in advance) that culminated in absolutely massive power creep.
To their credit they did actually try to correct for this but.... the player base hated that even more. That's another major factor. They long-ago pivoted to a different audience which is why many tanks like myself just don't bother anymore. Was it a bad move? Well, I guess being Zenimax's most profitable product that even surpasses Skyrim I guess I can't say it is but it sure is obvious I'm not the person they are making the game for.
The issue IS a fundamental flaw because it allowed for DPS to off tank, even then and the 4 man party does not take more dps out of the queue. The long queues are what led to DPS "fake tankiung" because at its core, no one likes wasting their time.
5 or more party members is necessary. AOE taunting and other mechanics that make taking fun are necessary in order to crate more tank players. I already went over this."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes3 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elvenheart wrote: »I must be wrong, but I thought the option for an AOE taunt was going to be on that new scribing bow skill they demonstrated at the reveal.
Everyone seems to be assuming, but the devs mentioned nothing about that. And the scribed bow skill had a tooltip that said "arrow". Singular. Not "arrows". So I am not convinced that everybody jumping to the "Bow AOE taunt!!!" conclusion is correct.3 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The fluidity of roles in ESO is one of its selling points. You can wield any weapon. Equip any armor. You can be a pure DPS, a pure tank, a pure healer. Or a mishmash of all of the above. A fairly unique feature that makes ESO very different from other MMOs. In a lot of ways, ESO's success is being the "MMO For People Who Hate MMOs".
Buffing trash mobs and enforcing the traditional trinity roles would attract the kinds of players who enjoyed WoW and other traditional MMOs. But would likely drive away a really core part of the player base.
So I think that "fake tanks" and "fake healers" are a problem. But a somewhat unavoidable problem if one of your game's most popular features is role fluidity in casual/normal content.6 -
Jarl_Ironheart✭✭✭✭✭As a lifelong tank of every game I play I don't think it's necessary. I like that ESO doesn't have a AOE tank. Having to prioritize targets based on damger is more fun that rawr now every fights me. Plus this issue of having to taunt everything is more pf a random group issue. If you are playing as a dedicated group or a competent player they will let the tank attack first which grants a sort of soft taunt for the tank. Like using talons on DK to root enemies or gripping shards on Wardens. It's makes the AI focus you first and they rarely survive a few seconds to do anything.Push Posh Applesauce, Pocket Full of Marmalade.3 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION IN AN MMORPG
Tanks, DPS, Healing perform a very important function in an MMORPG outside of their respective roles, and that is non verbal communication.
That is to say, when you see a tank, you know what his job is and what he should do. When you see a healer you know what their job is and what they should do and the same applies to a DPS. These rolls communicate to the player what the "job" is of their team mates.
In ESO, due to the lack of an aoe taunt and the devs vision of "DPS and heals can off tank easy mobs" we run into the issue of this communication being muddled. Because where we can easily determine the roll of a fellow player, not every player can determine the strength of a mob, so some try to take on mobs they can't and get destroyed. This also runs into the issue of responsibility, who's responsibilty is it to tank that mob beating on a healer? The tank? The DPS? How long before someone comes and gets this mob off the healer? Ohh wait, healer is dead. This is realy fun in a no death run.
FAKE TANKING IN ESO/SPEED RUNNING
The current system by its design is what has led to "fake tanks" and or speed runs (both of which are almost universally hated).
In World of Warcraft, even normal dungeon mobs will wipe the floor with DPS, there is no issue of speed running in that game like there is in ESO. This is because tanks can AOE taunt and must do so to control all the adds/mob packs. Only hunters with a tank pet and a warlock with a voidwalker can tank non hardmode dungeon and that requires crowd control by the hunter/warlock.
TANK FUN AND RESPONSIBILITY
Most tanks, at their core get a lot of their fun from tanking multiple mobs and staying alive. Its their dopamine rush in the same way big crits are for DPS or big crit heals for a healer. In ESO tanks are not given this luxury like their counterparts.
Because tanking overall is not as satisfactory in ESO compared to many other MMORPGS, we see less tanks in game. Tanks, as everyone knows are already in short supply even in games where they are fun, and this is due to their responsibility as a "leader" in a run. Why make the situation worse? Because that is what has been done in ESO with its no aoe taunt philosophy. The leadership aspect would take some creative brainstorming to solve and not a topic of discussion for my post, but making tankin more fun is doable.
PARTY SIZE CONTRIBUTIONS....or not....
So, we have less tanks. You know what else we have? A 4 person party. WoW has 5 person parties, Everquest has 6. What this means is that less DPS are absorbed out of the queue pool increasing wait times and forcing players to take on "fake tank" roles because everyone hates queue times. These could be lowered if we had larger party sizes, but this would require harder hitting mobs and AOE taunting.
I am not bashing the developers, I doubt many working on the game today had anything to do with ESO as it was being created years prior to 2014, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step (literally) into solving this issue. Get the skills into the game, get the players familair with them, allow for new tanks to take on their new found fun and roles. This will prepare the player base for further changes as they are rolled out with the goal being to reduce dungeon speed run issues and to create more fun/interesting play for tanking roles.
Drag mobs to tank instead of running like a chicken with no head.
I'd like to see something that let's aoe abilities generate a bit of threat(not a ton) to make grouping up easier but that's it. It'd have to be something only tanks could get somehow or you'd have trolls.0 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION IN AN MMORPG
Tanks, DPS, Healing perform a very important function in an MMORPG outside of their respective roles, and that is non verbal communication.
That is to say, when you see a tank, you know what his job is and what he should do. When you see a healer you know what their job is and what they should do and the same applies to a DPS. These rolls communicate to the player what the "job" is of their team mates.
In ESO, due to the lack of an aoe taunt and the devs vision of "DPS and heals can off tank easy mobs" we run into the issue of this communication being muddled. Because where we can easily determine the roll of a fellow player, not every player can determine the strength of a mob, so some try to take on mobs they can't and get destroyed. This also runs into the issue of responsibility, who's responsibilty is it to tank that mob beating on a healer? The tank? The DPS? How long before someone comes and gets this mob off the healer? Ohh wait, healer is dead. This is realy fun in a no death run.
FAKE TANKING IN ESO/SPEED RUNNING
The current system by its design is what has led to "fake tanks" and or speed runs (both of which are almost universally hated).
In World of Warcraft, even normal dungeon mobs will wipe the floor with DPS, there is no issue of speed running in that game like there is in ESO. This is because tanks can AOE taunt and must do so to control all the adds/mob packs. Only hunters with a tank pet and a warlock with a voidwalker can tank non hardmode dungeon and that requires crowd control by the hunter/warlock.
TANK FUN AND RESPONSIBILITY
Most tanks, at their core get a lot of their fun from tanking multiple mobs and staying alive. Its their dopamine rush in the same way big crits are for DPS or big crit heals for a healer. In ESO tanks are not given this luxury like their counterparts.
Because tanking overall is not as satisfactory in ESO compared to many other MMORPGS, we see less tanks in game. Tanks, as everyone knows are already in short supply even in games where they are fun, and this is due to their responsibility as a "leader" in a run. Why make the situation worse? Because that is what has been done in ESO with its no aoe taunt philosophy. The leadership aspect would take some creative brainstorming to solve and not a topic of discussion for my post, but making tankin more fun is doable.
PARTY SIZE CONTRIBUTIONS....or not....
So, we have less tanks. You know what else we have? A 4 person party. WoW has 5 person parties, Everquest has 6. What this means is that less DPS are absorbed out of the queue pool increasing wait times and forcing players to take on "fake tank" roles because everyone hates queue times. These could be lowered if we had larger party sizes, but this would require harder hitting mobs and AOE taunting.
I am not bashing the developers, I doubt many working on the game today had anything to do with ESO as it was being created years prior to 2014, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step (literally) into solving this issue. Get the skills into the game, get the players familair with them, allow for new tanks to take on their new found fun and roles. This will prepare the player base for further changes as they are rolled out with the goal being to reduce dungeon speed run issues and to create more fun/interesting play for tanking roles.
Drag mobs to tank instead of running like a chicken with no head.
That does not solve the issue of communication. As I previously wrote, the classes due to their jobs/responsiblities perform a nonverbal communication to the player.
The game must be designed so that typing or verbal communication is not necessary. You can't just tell the group "pull the mobs to the tank".
Not everyone group finder plays with speaks english.
Edited by Pixiepumpkin on February 8, 2024 11:07AM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION IN AN MMORPG
Tanks, DPS, Healing perform a very important function in an MMORPG outside of their respective roles, and that is non verbal communication.
That is to say, when you see a tank, you know what his job is and what he should do. When you see a healer you know what their job is and what they should do and the same applies to a DPS. These rolls communicate to the player what the "job" is of their team mates.
In ESO, due to the lack of an aoe taunt and the devs vision of "DPS and heals can off tank easy mobs" we run into the issue of this communication being muddled. Because where we can easily determine the roll of a fellow player, not every player can determine the strength of a mob, so some try to take on mobs they can't and get destroyed. This also runs into the issue of responsibility, who's responsibilty is it to tank that mob beating on a healer? The tank? The DPS? How long before someone comes and gets this mob off the healer? Ohh wait, healer is dead. This is realy fun in a no death run.
FAKE TANKING IN ESO/SPEED RUNNING
The current system by its design is what has led to "fake tanks" and or speed runs (both of which are almost universally hated).
In World of Warcraft, even normal dungeon mobs will wipe the floor with DPS, there is no issue of speed running in that game like there is in ESO. This is because tanks can AOE taunt and must do so to control all the adds/mob packs. Only hunters with a tank pet and a warlock with a voidwalker can tank non hardmode dungeon and that requires crowd control by the hunter/warlock.
TANK FUN AND RESPONSIBILITY
Most tanks, at their core get a lot of their fun from tanking multiple mobs and staying alive. Its their dopamine rush in the same way big crits are for DPS or big crit heals for a healer. In ESO tanks are not given this luxury like their counterparts.
Because tanking overall is not as satisfactory in ESO compared to many other MMORPGS, we see less tanks in game. Tanks, as everyone knows are already in short supply even in games where they are fun, and this is due to their responsibility as a "leader" in a run. Why make the situation worse? Because that is what has been done in ESO with its no aoe taunt philosophy. The leadership aspect would take some creative brainstorming to solve and not a topic of discussion for my post, but making tankin more fun is doable.
PARTY SIZE CONTRIBUTIONS....or not....
So, we have less tanks. You know what else we have? A 4 person party. WoW has 5 person parties, Everquest has 6. What this means is that less DPS are absorbed out of the queue pool increasing wait times and forcing players to take on "fake tank" roles because everyone hates queue times. These could be lowered if we had larger party sizes, but this would require harder hitting mobs and AOE taunting.
I am not bashing the developers, I doubt many working on the game today had anything to do with ESO as it was being created years prior to 2014, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step (literally) into solving this issue. Get the skills into the game, get the players familair with them, allow for new tanks to take on their new found fun and roles. This will prepare the player base for further changes as they are rolled out with the goal being to reduce dungeon speed run issues and to create more fun/interesting play for tanking roles.
Drag mobs to tank instead of running like a chicken with no head.
That does not solve the issue of communication. As I previously wrote, the classes due to their jobs/responsiblities perform a nonverbal communication to the player.
The game must be designed so that typing or verbal communication is not necessary. You can't just tell the group "pull the mobs to the tank".
Not everyone group finder plays with speaks english.
Add a ffxiv style auto translate feature.
There, there's a ton of phrases you can use that show up in chat in brackets that will automatically translate to your client language.
(hallowed ground) (just used it) <se.6> is one of my tank's macros.
The game doesn't need nonverbal cues or lack of typing. Though I do wish there was a way to see client language, particularly on the EU server.
The there's the issue that sometimes happens where someone can understand the language spoken, but pretends to not, or just ignores it, and I'm sure there's players that play with chat closed.
I just don't want nor need MORE effects going on. The game is already super flashy.1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »As a once tank main, I'm just going to say AoE taunts would be the death of the role as anything but a brainless exercise. It's already pointless to bring a tank in most content as it is so let's not trivialize the role for those that still enjoy it in the little remaining content it has left.
Read my post in its entirety, not just the title.
Against my better judgement I went back and did. My point still stands.
The issue isn't a fundamental flaw of the initial design because this didn't used to be an issue. DPS didn't used to have 30k hp, 30k armor and be able to do 75k+ DPS. They had 15k hp, 12k armor and if they cracked 20k DPS there were considered pretty damn good. This is a combination of issues including the devs making many small changes(that quite a number of us often warned them about way in advance) that culminated in absolutely massive power creep.
To their credit they did actually try to correct for this but.... the player base hated that even more. That's another major factor. They long-ago pivoted to a different audience which is why many tanks like myself just don't bother anymore. Was it a bad move? Well, I guess being Zenimax's most profitable product that even surpasses Skyrim I guess I can't say it is but it sure is obvious I'm not the person they are making the game for.
The issue IS a fundamental flaw because it allowed for DPS to off tank, even then and the 4 man party does not take more dps out of the queue. The long queues are what led to DPS "fake tankiung" because at its core, no one likes wasting their time.
5 or more party members is necessary. AOE taunting and other mechanics that make taking fun are necessary in order to crate more tank players. I already went over this.
This post makes me wonder if this is a thinly veiled "dps queues are too long" post. We don't need more slots.1 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION IN AN MMORPG
Tanks, DPS, Healing perform a very important function in an MMORPG outside of their respective roles, and that is non verbal communication.
That is to say, when you see a tank, you know what his job is and what he should do. When you see a healer you know what their job is and what they should do and the same applies to a DPS. These rolls communicate to the player what the "job" is of their team mates.
In ESO, due to the lack of an aoe taunt and the devs vision of "DPS and heals can off tank easy mobs" we run into the issue of this communication being muddled. Because where we can easily determine the roll of a fellow player, not every player can determine the strength of a mob, so some try to take on mobs they can't and get destroyed. This also runs into the issue of responsibility, who's responsibilty is it to tank that mob beating on a healer? The tank? The DPS? How long before someone comes and gets this mob off the healer? Ohh wait, healer is dead. This is realy fun in a no death run.
FAKE TANKING IN ESO/SPEED RUNNING
The current system by its design is what has led to "fake tanks" and or speed runs (both of which are almost universally hated).
In World of Warcraft, even normal dungeon mobs will wipe the floor with DPS, there is no issue of speed running in that game like there is in ESO. This is because tanks can AOE taunt and must do so to control all the adds/mob packs. Only hunters with a tank pet and a warlock with a voidwalker can tank non hardmode dungeon and that requires crowd control by the hunter/warlock.
TANK FUN AND RESPONSIBILITY
Most tanks, at their core get a lot of their fun from tanking multiple mobs and staying alive. Its their dopamine rush in the same way big crits are for DPS or big crit heals for a healer. In ESO tanks are not given this luxury like their counterparts.
Because tanking overall is not as satisfactory in ESO compared to many other MMORPGS, we see less tanks in game. Tanks, as everyone knows are already in short supply even in games where they are fun, and this is due to their responsibility as a "leader" in a run. Why make the situation worse? Because that is what has been done in ESO with its no aoe taunt philosophy. The leadership aspect would take some creative brainstorming to solve and not a topic of discussion for my post, but making tankin more fun is doable.
PARTY SIZE CONTRIBUTIONS....or not....
So, we have less tanks. You know what else we have? A 4 person party. WoW has 5 person parties, Everquest has 6. What this means is that less DPS are absorbed out of the queue pool increasing wait times and forcing players to take on "fake tank" roles because everyone hates queue times. These could be lowered if we had larger party sizes, but this would require harder hitting mobs and AOE taunting.
I am not bashing the developers, I doubt many working on the game today had anything to do with ESO as it was being created years prior to 2014, but the system as designed is inherently flawed. Allowing for aoe taunting is the first step (literally) into solving this issue. Get the skills into the game, get the players familair with them, allow for new tanks to take on their new found fun and roles. This will prepare the player base for further changes as they are rolled out with the goal being to reduce dungeon speed run issues and to create more fun/interesting play for tanking roles.
Drag mobs to tank instead of running like a chicken with no head.
That does not solve the issue of communication. As I previously wrote, the classes due to their jobs/responsiblities perform a nonverbal communication to the player.
The game must be designed so that typing or verbal communication is not necessary. You can't just tell the group "pull the mobs to the tank".
Not everyone group finder plays with speaks english.
Add a ffxiv style auto translate feature.
There, there's a ton of phrases you can use that show up in chat in brackets that will automatically translate to your client language.
(hallowed ground) (just used it) <se.6> is one of my tank's macros.
The game doesn't need nonverbal cues or lack of typing. Though I do wish there was a way to see client language, particularly on the EU server.
The there's the issue that sometimes happens where someone can understand the language spoken, but pretends to not, or just ignores it, and I'm sure there's players that play with chat closed.
I just don't want nor need MORE effects going on. The game is already super flashy.
Not additional affects need to be created. Just the understanding (again, nonverbal communication) that each role has a job, which I said in my op is muddied...this is not contestable."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Roztlin45✭✭✭✭✭Maybe as an opportunity for ZOS, an AOE taunt could be from a mythic item. This way no skills would have to be added or changed. A mythic shield.0 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »As a once tank main, I'm just going to say AoE taunts would be the death of the role as anything but a brainless exercise. It's already pointless to bring a tank in most content as it is so let's not trivialize the role for those that still enjoy it in the little remaining content it has left.
Read my post in its entirety, not just the title.
Against my better judgement I went back and did. My point still stands.
The issue isn't a fundamental flaw of the initial design because this didn't used to be an issue. DPS didn't used to have 30k hp, 30k armor and be able to do 75k+ DPS. They had 15k hp, 12k armor and if they cracked 20k DPS there were considered pretty damn good. This is a combination of issues including the devs making many small changes(that quite a number of us often warned them about way in advance) that culminated in absolutely massive power creep.
To their credit they did actually try to correct for this but.... the player base hated that even more. That's another major factor. They long-ago pivoted to a different audience which is why many tanks like myself just don't bother anymore. Was it a bad move? Well, I guess being Zenimax's most profitable product that even surpasses Skyrim I guess I can't say it is but it sure is obvious I'm not the person they are making the game for.
The issue IS a fundamental flaw because it allowed for DPS to off tank, even then and the 4 man party does not take more dps out of the queue. The long queues are what led to DPS "fake tankiung" because at its core, no one likes wasting their time.
5 or more party members is necessary. AOE taunting and other mechanics that make taking fun are necessary in order to crate more tank players. I already went over this.
This post makes me wonder if this is a thinly veiled "dps queues are too long" post. We don't need more slots.
No, but that is a factor. All of these things are intertwined, and again my op is uncontesable.
The fact is:
• If parties were larger, more DPS would be taken out of the queue pool.
• The more DPS are taken out of the queue pool the faster queues will pop.
• The faster the queues pop, the less need there is for DPS to "fake tank" ruining dungeon runs for low level questing players.
• Giving tanks AOE taunt abilties reduce the need for off tanking DPS/healers.
• Increasing mob damage to non tanking players will ensure they let the tank do their job.
• If tanks are required to run an instance and they are given the tools to do so, this will stop fake tank speed runs
My OP discusses multiple issues with the game and the best solution (as has already been solved by other games, decades ago) is to allow tanks to AOE taunt, make mobs hit harder (so that a tank is required) and increase party size to absorb DPS out of the queue pool.
"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Xuhora✭✭✭✭✭i really dont get your "fundamental flaw" point... im pretty sure the creators of this game had a meeting in the concept stage of development where they went, right lets do it different, the tank has no AoE taunt and has do choose the prio targets one by one, which makes the tankrole more engaging and fun. And while we are at it, lets take a step away from armor and roles tied to playerclasses, which creates a new dynamic in the MMO-World.
Fun, like beauty, lies in the eyes of the beholder, its objective. You thinking AoE taunt would be more fun is as valuable as the originals devs finding the lack of AoE taunt more fun. But they created the game, not you. its a deliberate choice, not a fundamental flaw.
as for the 4 player groups instead of 5 the idea is the same. Allthou it wouldnt change the very core of the game if you extended that playerlimit to 5 instead of 4, so i think this could be up for debate and your points in getting more DDs out of the Queue per group formed is valid.6 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
And failed to take in how the core of the issue is communication. People do not type out every move they are going to do while fighting. Combat is fast and players need to understand what to do (their jobs/class/spec/role).i really dont get your "fundamental flaw" point... im pretty sure the creators of this game had a meeting in the concept stage of development where they went, right lets do it different, the tank has no AoE taunt and has do choose the prio targets one by one, which makes the tankrole more engaging and fun. And while we are at it, lets take a step away from armor and roles tied to playerclasses, which creates a new dynamic in the MMO-World.
I already went over all of this.
Tankes tank. People understand this. In ESO tanks only tank the big guy, not everyone understands this and even when they do their are adds in game that hit HARD and can wipe a DPS. Its a tanks job to do this, not the DPS.
In other games, this is EASILY understood, in ESO its not and there is not enough time to type out "excuse me sir tank, could you please taunt this mo.....nevermind I am dead".
Its all about NON VERBAL COMMUNICATION. In other games the tank and their role by the very design of the game communicate to the DPS and healer what they will perform, etc.
This is not objective, becasue again we are talking about communication between the roles. In other games with strict tank/heal/DPS roles this is easily understood, in eso its muddied, blured, not so easily understood which leads to all the issues I have already laid out through this entire thread.Fun, like beauty, lies in the eyes of the beholder, its objective. You thinking AoE taunt would be more fun is as valuable as the originals devs finding the lack of AoE taunt more fun. But they created the game, not you. its a deliberate choice, not a fundamental flaw.
And should have been understood when the creators of the game had a meeting in the concept stage of development...as for the 4 player groups instead of 5 the idea is the same. Allthou it wouldnt change the very core of the game if you extended that playerlimit to 5 instead of 4, so i think this could be up for debate and your points in getting more DDs out of the Queue per group formed is valid.
"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Roles aren't communicating with each other, neither in eso nor any other mmo I know of.
The communication happens between the players itself.
Restricting said roles to only work in a specific way (instead of the various possibilities eso has to offer) won't solve issues with failed communication (which is present in every mmo I know of) but definitely would push a lot of people away from the game.
No need to cripple our builds and the community in favor of players which refuse to speak with each other.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.7 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Roles aren't communicating with each other, neither in eso nor any other mmo I know of.
Yes they do, they very much do. I have already explained this in the first paragraph of my opening statement in this thread.
Edited by Pixiepumpkin on February 16, 2024 3:08PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
I did.
And I simply disagree with your opinion (which isn't an explanation at all).
Looks more like you are after reducing complexity and playstyles to suspense yourself from proper communication with your teammates.Edited by Braffin on February 16, 2024 3:10PMNever get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.7 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
I did.
And I simply disagree with your opinion (which isn't an explanation at all).
Its not an opinion, it's literally how these things are designed (designed to communicate)."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭Let me put this out here, because I feel pretty confident in this particular question. Having tanked (a lot) in WoW retail, WoW classic, SWTOR, LoTRO and ESO (7 years), I can say that the lack of or presence of an AoE taunt is not affecting the availability of tanks, except one (the OP). In addition, if an AoE taunt existed in ESO, fake tanks would not use it anymore than they use a regular taunt today.
The lack of tanks boils down to these generalized reasons:
1. It's an exposed role. If I screw up, people might cuss me out (all games).
2. Tanking takes more focus and I just want to blast and not think (all games).
3. Tank's damage blows so I have to have multiple setups to play outside of group content (ESO).
4. I don't want to learn all content, mechanics and strats (all games).
OP's assertion that 5 man content leads to shorter queues is probably correct but unfortunately ESO's small group content is balanced around 4 ppl, so I doubt ZoS will redesign all that to fit 5 man.12 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
I did.
And I simply disagree with your opinion (which isn't an explanation at all).
Its not an opinion, it's literally how these things are designed (designed to communicate).
Of course it is an opinion.
Your opinion to be more clear.
"These things" (roles, I assume) aren't as static as you think they are but fluid in every single mmo I know of.
You played swtor, so you surely met some DDwT, didn't you?
Another thing I met in every single mmo are people which behave badly in groups and lack proper communication. These players almost every time demand simplification of gameplay to increase their fun at the cost of others.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.8 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
I did.
And I simply disagree with your opinion (which isn't an explanation at all).
Its not an opinion, it's literally how these things are designed (designed to communicate).
Of course it is an opinion.
Your opinion to be more clear.
"These things" (roles, I assume) aren't as static as you think they are but fluid in every single mmo I know of.
You played swtor, so you surely met some DDwT, didn't you?
Another thing I met in every single mmo are people which behave badly in groups and lack proper communication. These players almost every time demand simplification of gameplay to increase their fun at the cost of others.
No, its not. I have updated the OP to illustrate this.
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/2812748.2812769
Please read. This is not an opinion."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
There are theads on this very forum by multiple players who tank in ESO that they will not only stop tanking, but leave the game if the Tormetor nerf goes through. This has nothing to do with me, do not make this an issue with me.Let me put this out here, because I feel pretty confident in this particular question. Having tanked (a lot) in WoW retail, WoW classic, SWTOR, LoTRO and ESO (7 years), I can say that the lack of or presence of an AoE taunt is not affecting the availability of tanks, except one (the OP). In addition, if an AoE taunt existed in ESO, fake tanks would not use it anymore than they use a regular taunt today.
5. Fun. Many express AOE tanking as a ton of fun, taking one mob...not so much.The lack of tanks boils down to these generalized reasons:
1. It's an exposed role. If I screw up, people might cuss me out (all games).
2. Tanking takes more focus and I just want to blast and not think (all games).
3. Tank's damage blows so I have to have multiple setups to play outside of group content (ESO).
4. I don't want to learn all content, mechanics and strats (all games).
Its all about dopamine. For DPS the dopamine comes from the BIG CRITS, same with healing on top of the feeling of joy from keeping the team alive. For tanks the dopamine is often "how many mobs can I take abuse from before my armor gives and I die".
AOE allows for the tank dopamine, single target might do it for some, but defnitely not all players.
But all of that aside. My OP, AOE tanking, party size etc all meant to be taken together as a whole.
I doubt they will as well, but it does not change that in order to reduce fake tanking/speed runs (which gets in the way of many players trying to run the dungeon at a slower pace, especially to do their quests), these things need to happen.OP's assertion that 5 man content leads to shorter queues is probably correct but unfortunately ESO's small group content is balanced around 4 ppl, so I doubt ZoS will redesign all that to fit 5 man.
"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
I did.
And I simply disagree with your opinion (which isn't an explanation at all).
Its not an opinion, it's literally how these things are designed (designed to communicate).
Of course it is an opinion.
Your opinion to be more clear.
"These things" (roles, I assume) aren't as static as you think they are but fluid in every single mmo I know of.
You played swtor, so you surely met some DDwT, didn't you?
Another thing I met in every single mmo are people which behave badly in groups and lack proper communication. These players almost every time demand simplification of gameplay to increase their fun at the cost of others.
No, its not. I have updated the OP to illustrate this.
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/2812748.2812769
Please read. This is not an opinion.
Fine, gave the article a quick read, but couldn't find a passage about "the necessity of trinity roles" or "the general need of AoE-taunt".
The article is all about expectations towards the player (to behave socially and learn the game) not about derived expectations towards the game (to be played in a specific manner).
The latter is an addition by you and contradicts the whole article.
Maybe you simply don't understand the difference between players communicating through roles and communicating roles (which is impossible).
The UI is already telling you which player does fulfill each role. The game is telling you that there are no fixed roles from the very beginning.
Instead of demanding them, how about learning to play by the rules, like the linked article is suggesting?Edited by Braffin on February 16, 2024 3:37PMNever get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.3 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
I did.
And I simply disagree with your opinion (which isn't an explanation at all).
Its not an opinion, it's literally how these things are designed (designed to communicate).
Of course it is an opinion.
Your opinion to be more clear.
"These things" (roles, I assume) aren't as static as you think they are but fluid in every single mmo I know of.
You played swtor, so you surely met some DDwT, didn't you?
Another thing I met in every single mmo are people which behave badly in groups and lack proper communication. These players almost every time demand simplification of gameplay to increase their fun at the cost of others.
No, its not. I have updated the OP to illustrate this.
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/2812748.2812769
Please read. This is not an opinion.
Fine, gave the article a quick read, but couldn't find a passage about "the necessity of trinity roles" or "the general need of AoE-taunt".
The article is all about expectations towards the player (to behave socially and learn the game) not about derived expectations towards the game (to be played in a specific manner).
The latter is an addition by you and contradicts the whole article.
Are you sure about that?
"T he most difficult aspect of raiding is not eliminating bosses per se, but rather coordinating player action
during encounters. Only when players are able to synchronize their characters’ respective role performances
can they defeat bosses and obtain rewards. Many players will encounter the same boss dozens of times
before successfully defeating it. Further, raid bosses “respawn” every week, offering repeated opportunities
for groups to hone strategies and build teamwork in order to smoothly progress through the raid area.
Weekly repetition results in routinization of interaction where “respective identities and roles [become]
essentially given and unproblematic, so that negotiation is mainly a matter of all recognizing the governing
occasion or situation” (McCall 2003:331). Nevertheless, due to the random make-up of many raids,
and the general complexity of boss encounters, raids continue to showcase the emergent nature of social
action, warranting an analysis of the interface through which players interpret and act upon symbolic
communications involving the game itself and other players."
The entirety of content in an MMORPG is about players working with other players to achieve the end goal. This is done through non-verbal communication. And I have already laid out how AOE tanking plays into this."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
I did.
And I simply disagree with your opinion (which isn't an explanation at all).
Its not an opinion, it's literally how these things are designed (designed to communicate).
Of course it is an opinion.
Your opinion to be more clear.
"These things" (roles, I assume) aren't as static as you think they are but fluid in every single mmo I know of.
You played swtor, so you surely met some DDwT, didn't you?
Another thing I met in every single mmo are people which behave badly in groups and lack proper communication. These players almost every time demand simplification of gameplay to increase their fun at the cost of others.
No, its not. I have updated the OP to illustrate this.
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/2812748.2812769
Please read. This is not an opinion.
Fine, gave the article a quick read, but couldn't find a passage about "the necessity of trinity roles" or "the general need of AoE-taunt".
The article is all about expectations towards the player (to behave socially and learn the game) not about derived expectations towards the game (to be played in a specific manner).
The latter is an addition by you and contradicts the whole article.
Are you sure about that?
"T he most difficult aspect of raiding is not eliminating bosses per se, but rather coordinating player action
during encounters. Only when players are able to synchronize their characters’ respective role performances
can they defeat bosses and obtain rewards. Many players will encounter the same boss dozens of times
before successfully defeating it. Further, raid bosses “respawn” every week, offering repeated opportunities
for groups to hone strategies and build teamwork in order to smoothly progress through the raid area.
Weekly repetition results in routinization of interaction where “respective identities and roles [become]
essentially given and unproblematic, so that negotiation is mainly a matter of all recognizing the governing
occasion or situation” (McCall 2003:331). Nevertheless, due to the random make-up of many raids,
and the general complexity of boss encounters, raids continue to showcase the emergent nature of social
action, warranting an analysis of the interface through which players interpret and act upon symbolic
communications involving the game itself and other players."
The entirety of content in an MMORPG is about players working with other players to achieve the end goal. This is done through non-verbal communication. And I have already laid out how AOE tanking plays into this.
Yes, I'm sure about that.
No mention of AoE taunts in the article.
No mention of specific skills for roles in the article.
Instead they are correctly saying, that coordinating players is the major work on the road to success.
Then you come in and demand the game to solve this issue for you by putting the players on rails.
That won't work and that won't happen.
Thankfully so.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.10 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »I doubt they will as well, but it does not change that in order to reduce fake tanking/speed runs (which gets in the way of many players trying to run the dungeon at a slower pace, especially to do their quests), these things need to happen.
Player behavior is driven by rewards. The rewards for fake tanking a random normal far outweighs any disadvantage. You can make a massive dent in fake tanks by removing or dramatically reducing the number of transmute crystals a random dungeon provides. Fake tanking doesn't happen much in for example WoW even in normal dungeons because a dps usually can't handle the incoming damage. ESO's combat and ability design is such that you basically have as much healing as you have resources, whereas in another game you may have a small self-heal that goes on a long cooldown after use.
3 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »I doubt they will as well, but it does not change that in order to reduce fake tanking/speed runs (which gets in the way of many players trying to run the dungeon at a slower pace, especially to do their quests), these things need to happen.
Player behavior is driven by rewards. The rewards for fake tanking a random normal far outweighs any disadvantage. You can make a massive dent in fake tanks by removing or dramatically reducing the number of transmute crystals a random dungeon provides. Fake tanking doesn't happen much in for example WoW even in normal dungeons because a dps usually can't handle the incoming damage. ESO's combat and ability design is such that you basically have as much healing as you have resources, whereas in another game you may have a small self-heal that goes on a long cooldown after use.
I don't disagree and in fact covered much of what you said throughout the post.
But I disagree with "Far outweighs any disadvantage" because the disadvantage in most cases is a new player, new character not being able to complete their story quest because fake tanks keep running ahead. And the effect this has on that player can be as strong as quitting the game (seen it happen) or no affect at all, they just go on about their day. But its a big enough issue that it's not only commonly expressed here, reddit and other social media channels, we also see it daily in game.
This would be resolved if mobs hit hard like they did in wow. This would keep the fake tank from speeding ahead.
In order for mobs to hit harder like they did in wow, either DPS and healers need to become tanks (which would completely destroy role identity and game balance) or Tanks need to hold all mobs aggro.
In order for tanks to hold all mobs aggro, they need AOE taunts.
And I realize how much work this would require, its a complete rewrite of the combat system regarding dungeons and trials. Its not going to happen, but doing nothing can't happen either and so far there is a big ole lot of nothing happening on this front.
Its either that, or story mode so that new players can experience the game in the way it was meant to be.Edited by Pixiepumpkin on February 16, 2024 4:31PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I main a tank, have done so since the game began. I have cleared every vet dungeon, vet 4 person arena, and every vet trial, with hard modes on a ton of them.
Tanking is absolutely fine as it is and is a ton more fun having to prioritize targets to taunt as well as learning to work together as a group. As an aside, I pugged my way through dungeons to Undaunted 10 so am well aware of some of the pain points you are referring to.
In my opinion, the issue is not a missing aoe taunt, the issue is a mix between the games learning curve and the fact that in-game tutorials are absolutely horrid that do nothing to teach people the nuances of grouping with others. The healer getting beat up in the back of the arena should have been taught to bring the add to the tank instead of backing away, and the same for the damage dealers.
It is rather poor planning on the games part to rely on folks watching youtube videos to learn how to play their role effectively.
My two cents, for what it's worth.
I completely agree. I do not have the same level of experience as I have not tanked all HM trials but I have seen no issues with tanking without having an AoE taunt. Granted, I had to learn how to look at the fights better and how to control multiple targets but I have no issues with tanking in ESO with the single target taunt.
As someone who has tanked in multiple MMORPGs I would say that ESO tanking has even made me a better tank. I feel more engaged with the fight and find tanking more enjoyable here.
There is no correlation between the lack of AoE taunt and the reasons why we have speed runs or fake tanks. Further, I have never found a lack of tanks in ESO. Many like myself avoid the GF and only tank for guilds and friends due to the low-end DPS we have experienced with GF groups. That is the real problem with ESO pug groups.
So the conclusion is there is zero need for an AoE taunt in ESO.
9 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭All content in this game can be tanked without it so it's not necessary.
- Enemies that should be taunted tend to be different from the common ones.
- Speed running is a normal dungeon concept and an AOE taunt won't stop a player from skipping mobs. Normal dungeons in ESO are designed in a way that a group of 4 with random builds can clear while a properly designed solo build can easily clear with exception to some group mechanics.
- I find tanking to be quite fun especially when it's a blue portal scenario. You'll definitely feel like the hero when you help a group get passed a difficult encounter. I like taunting priority enemies, snaring/rootingbothers, and pulling stragglers to me.
- Increasing the party size for dungeons is unnecessary and as you mentioned would require the content to be adjusted to the change.
At the end of the day there is nothing stopping a player from joining a guild or creating a group with the group finder to ensure a specific kind of run.
Yes normal dungeons are designed to be easy, but vet content (dungeons) can be done with 3 smart DPS and a tank/healer. When I played (even before the stat merger) I could solo tank any vet dungeon without a healer and 3 DPS would be there to speed run it. (Hell there have been videos of a guy soloing vet dungeon hardmodes.........)
This shows the flaws in the current system. I get people want to press 1 button and auto destroy everything but I thought the point of a game was to be slightly harder than that.
My proposal for ages has always been a combination of things. The first is sync your cap to certain level restrictions for a dungeon. If the dungeon say was designed for 160cp then 200cp should be max allowed to enter. This stops people from being 1 shooting mobs and not allowing people to learn mechanics ECT. It is no fun being that player trying to learn and you blink and the dungeon is done. They play the game to play it not to have some overpowered guy trying to flex.
The second would be to add AOE taunting along with buffing the trash adds damage crazy strong. With this change it forces tanks to actually have to wear high def gear and focus on themselves rather than always worrying about wearing gear to increase DPS buffs. Add in some mobs that do AOE so DPS still are engaged in the fight having to move around so it doesn't feel like it is a parse contest.
The third thing these changes do is force the healer to actually wear gear that will increasing healing or try to worry about their own resource pool because they now have to actually heal people rather than throwing out everything they can to increase DPS numbers. These changes allow actual tanking in eso, allow healing in eso, and it allows people to actually run dungeons without skipping the mechanics unless your DPS is on point. It makes each role as important as the others and has been long overdue in this game. This game has always catered to DPS in pve in this game and it should support a variety.
(Yes adjust tanks in pvp don't buff them and then leave them broken there)2