Eris wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Eris wrote: »

So don't blame Zenimax for taking away your toys, blame the exploiters

To be clear, there was no exploit. There was just the vampire skill line that ZOS put into the game, and some people used, and others did not.

Dont blame Zenimax though you say?? Blame people for using skills they put in the game, and then jump on a long string of terrible players who say its an exploit.

This forum is driven by the opinions of so many idiots that dont even know what theyre complaining about.

Just because it can be done doesn't mean it's not an exploit. In fact, that is exactly what an exploit is. The very definition of exploit is to use some part of a system to an unintended advantage.

So what part of the skill line was an exploit? What was not intended? The only one that I can see possible is bat swarms stacking. But are you saying its not intended for ults to stack? Why is it every other ult stacks then? Are they all bugged too? Or theyre not bugged... its an exploit if you do it, and youre a cheater.

Labeling it an exploit and calling the people exploiters makes awful players feel a lot better about getting bulldozed all day in pvp. But the reality is, youll be bulldozed by players putting 4 standards up and you instantly die despite the fact you have capped health and full HP with max armor/spell resist. "Its an exploit!"

No, you idiots. Its REALLY poor balance. This game was released early without great balance, and beyond that, whoever is balancing, is not doing it well either.

Thats why you get such a different change from one day to the next with vampire. So get your tissue boxes ready, youre in for a long ride.

So many Vampires whining.

Riddle me this, if anyone who cries about a Vampire needs to L2P...

Then after these nerfs, shouldn't the whining Vampires just L2P?

The very argument that is being used by Vampires is contradictory to everything that is being said. With the uproar, Werewolves bad state should be on everyones list as THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO FIX.

This is why I can't take you Vampire advocates seriously, because it is obviously just complaining about not being a God anymore.

Peterkorntvedb16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

2. Somebody's gotta have it slotted and ultimate built up for it. Bad thing to have just one counter as well. Especially when only one class has it.
3. Tried that, didn't work. Also you can't control the other twenty people that are there with you.

well
2. Yes one need to slot yes only one class has it, so u are 20 peeps if noone takes its there fail.
3. well if 20 peeps cant move 20 peeps deserve to die just like in pve boss fight


and for the rest of the points i made, they dont work!!! if ur 20 other peeps stand still like idiots... so there i suggest, that u wait till they are dead, and fight 1 vs 1 with the vamp...

and to ur question, should one be able to take out 20 player, answer is yes, if the 20 stand still and dont move... thats the concept of the class canon, High risk high reward...
plus this game is made as a reaction fight, not button spam stand still...

and the emperor, well thats him being awesome, and he is intend to be REALLY HARD to take down+. True adding high damage on him from a class canon spec makes him even more strong... but thats not the vampires fault.... its how the synergy where meant to work

2. You also have to build ultimate for it, which on one guy can take some time if you started at zero. Regardless, do you really think it's a good thing that there should be only one counter, which only one class has and to top it off is an ultimate? You really think it's a good thing that that counter be absolutely necessary to take down one vampire when you've got at least a couple dozen other people there with you fighting him?

3. PvP and PvE are different animals. Nobody should be so powerful in PvP that they can spam one or two buttons and kill twenty people at once without fear of being killed themselves, regardless of whether or not those twenty stand in the fire.

As for the rest, I think you meant glass cannon. The concept of which is you are fragile. As in you should not be able to absorb a hundred silver bolts coming at you at once, not to mention the multitude of other attacks, stuns included. The bat swarm exploit eliminated the "high risk" part so all the vampire had to do was "button spam stand still".

Also, I never mentioned the emperor. Fact is, those vampires didn't have to be emperor for the invulnerability to happen. The ones I ran into most definitely were not emperors because he was on our side at the time.

One more thing. You seem to have completely missed the part where we did use the direct, hard counters to vampires and they did squat against the exploiters. How would you feel if werewolves were completely invincible for the full duration of their transformation? Or if nightblades had a good two or three minutes of uninterruptible, untargetable invisibility? There was clearly something broken and if you can't admit that, then tough cookies. Just lean forward a little more so your tears don't miss the cup.

Glurin wrote: »

3. PvP and PvE are different animals. Nobody should be so powerful in PvP that they can spam one or two buttons and kill twenty people at once without fear of being killed themselves, regardless of whether or not those twenty stand in the fire.

While I agree the exploits (Bat stacking and Mist healing) had to be fixed, comments like these propagate myths that just aren't true.

There was never any "two button spam" to win.

When people actually talked in depth about the OP Dk Vamp builds they were referencing a whole host of active skills used to create the OP combo:

Bats, Mist, Talons, Charge, DragonScales, Drain, Immovable, Inhale

Even against bad players a DK Vamp needed ALL or Most of those abilities at different times. Thats at least 8 skills to juggle and possibly more. So yes the combo was overpowered but it was never so simple as many of you suggest. Two buttons? LOL yeah right.

If you were a v10 Vamp and you only "spam one or two buttons" you are going to get wrecked not wipe a zerg...

Glurin wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

So what part of the skill line was an exploit? What was not intended? The only one that I can see possible is bat swarms stacking. But are you saying its not intended for ults to stack? Why is it every other ult stacks then? Are they all bugged too? Or theyre not bugged... its an exploit if you do it, and youre a cheater.

The bat stacking was an exploit. It was a bug that when taken advantage of made the player invincible for a considerable length of time, and that particular ultimate was not supposed to stack for that very reason. That doesn't mean other ultimates that happen to stack are also bugged. Some of them might be, but just because one wasn't supposed to doesn't mean they all aren't supposed to.

It was a bug because it made players 'invicible' for a 'considerable length of time'???

Bat swarm drains health. If you have a lot of people around you while its up, you will drain a lot of health. You can still do that now. Are vamps still bugged because theyre invicible?

Considerable length of time... the ult is 5 seconds. To generate another is about 1-2 seconds. So you can run about 2-3 bat ults on top of each other if youre never CCd and enemies are piling around you. The only reason it is a 'considerable length of time' is because people are still piling around you.

I can chain bat ults for a minute straight still. Sure they dont stack, but Im still invicible, and for a considerable length of time. Both invincible and considerable length of time can be voided though if the people fighting know what theyre doing.

Im not against them having nerfed some of vamp. But to say it was an exploit, is just bad players being cry babies.

Id take vamps stacking bat ults over DKs stacking standards any day. Some of the other ults 'might be bugged' though you say. They might be bugged if you and many other bad players die to them frequently, then they are bugged. And those killing you with them are exploiters. Any of the ults youre not dying to that stack though are definately intended and not bugged.

Youre a strapping ***.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

So what part of the skill line was an exploit? What was not intended? The only one that I can see possible is bat swarms stacking. But are you saying its not intended for ults to stack? Why is it every other ult stacks then? Are they all bugged too? Or theyre not bugged... its an exploit if you do it, and youre a cheater.

The bat stacking was an exploit. It was a bug that when taken advantage of made the player invincible for a considerable length of time, and that particular ultimate was not supposed to stack for that very reason. That doesn't mean other ultimates that happen to stack are also bugged. Some of them might be, but just because one wasn't supposed to doesn't mean they all aren't supposed to.

It was a bug because it made players 'invicible' for a 'considerable length of time'???

Yes.

Well, technically it's a bug because it's behavior was unintentional, but the invincibility is why it was unintentional.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Bat swarm drains health. If you have a lot of people around you while its up, you will drain a lot of health. You can still do that now. Are vamps still bugged because theyre invicible?

Considerable length of time... the ult is 5 seconds. To generate another is about 1-2 seconds. So you can run about 2-3 bat ults on top of each other if youre never CCd and enemies are piling around you. The only reason it is a 'considerable length of time' is because people are still piling around you.

I can chain bat ults for a minute straight still. Sure they dont stack, but Im still invicible, and for a considerable length of time. Both invincible and considerable length of time can be voided though if the people fighting know what theyre doing.

Im not against them having nerfed some of vamp. But to say it was an exploit, is just bad players being cry babies.

There you go. An ultimate that may have had a short duration, but could be stacked such that it healed for thousands of health a second and due to the low cost could also be chained for over a minute, which is a long time to kill something that is not a raid boss even on the PvE scale.

If you've got twenty people pounding on you at once, you should die in seconds. Doesn't matter what they use or where they stand. No player character should be able to simply absorb that much damage at once with no healers present.

funny thing is cyrodiil zone chat is nothing but people praising the extinction of vampires, then a minute later two vr10 dks (that used to be vamps) charge onto the bridge drop double standard and kill over 20 people in 4 secs, those dks used to push the army back but they rarely killed people because devouring was pretty easy for healers to keep people up through, but now good *** luck healing through multiple standards rofl

ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

There you go. An ultimate that may have had a short duration, but could be stacked such that it healed for thousands of health a second and due to the low cost could also be chained for over a minute, which is a long time to kill something that is not a raid boss even on the PvE scale.

If you've got twenty people pounding on you at once, you should die in seconds. Doesn't matter what they use or where they stand. No player character should be able to simply absorb that much damage at once with no healers present.

But you missed the important part "Both invincible and considerable length of time can be voided though if the people fighting know what theyre doing." and you keep bitching about vampires? Just like 99% of the people around...and unfortunately the devs listened to the noobs and decided to not only fix the skills and how they work but to also nerf vamps in to the ground...GJ keep it up! One day the nerfs will hit you too and I'll be happy to see you come here and cry!

Oh I didn't miss it. In fact I addressed it directly, which you apparently ignored.

What you don't seem to understand is that even if by some strange coincidence each and every one of those twenty or thirty people are "noobs", they can still do considerable damage on one guy. More than enough to kill him. And if even one of those twenty or thirty "noobs" has half a brain and hits him hard with what are supposed to be his weaknesses, then he should drop like a sack of potatoes.

But that was not happening. Even with much more than half the group knowing how to kill a vampire and wearing decent gear, the exploit allowed him to essentially completely ignore them. You can't have a skill line that powerful and not expect a nerf to hit at some point.

Glurin wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

So what part of the skill line was an exploit? What was not intended? The only one that I can see possible is bat swarms stacking. But are you saying its not intended for ults to stack? Why is it every other ult stacks then? Are they all bugged too? Or theyre not bugged... its an exploit if you do it, and youre a cheater.

The bat stacking was an exploit. It was a bug that when taken advantage of made the player invincible for a considerable length of time, and that particular ultimate was not supposed to stack for that very reason. That doesn't mean other ultimates that happen to stack are also bugged. Some of them might be, but just because one wasn't supposed to doesn't mean they all aren't supposed to.

It was a bug because it made players 'invicible' for a 'considerable length of time'???

Yes.

Well, technically it's a bug because it's behavior was unintentional, but the invincibility is why it was unintentional.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Bat swarm drains health. If you have a lot of people around you while its up, you will drain a lot of health. You can still do that now. Are vamps still bugged because theyre invicible?

Considerable length of time... the ult is 5 seconds. To generate another is about 1-2 seconds. So you can run about 2-3 bat ults on top of each other if youre never CCd and enemies are piling around you. The only reason it is a 'considerable length of time' is because people are still piling around you.

I can chain bat ults for a minute straight still. Sure they dont stack, but Im still invicible, and for a considerable length of time. Both invincible and considerable length of time can be voided though if the people fighting know what theyre doing.

Im not against them having nerfed some of vamp. But to say it was an exploit, is just bad players being cry babies.

There you go. An ultimate that may have had a short duration, but could be stacked such that it healed for thousands of health a second and due to the low cost could also be chained for over a minute, which is a long time to kill something that is not a raid boss even on the PvE scale.

If you've got twenty people pounding on you at once, you should die in seconds. Doesn't matter what they use or where they stand. No player character should be able to simply absorb that much damage at once with no healers present.

You dont get it, and thats why you shouldnt have a valid opinion on the subject.

You dont need to stack 2 or 3 ults to heal yourself to max. As long as youre able to stand near 4+ people, youre going to heal up to full every tick, without stacking ults. This is how it stands now.

Youre essentially saying no matter what a player does, he shouldnt be able to fight overwhelming odds, even if the enemy is fighting in the worst manner they can. Essentially, rewarding completely inept players, like yourself.

I have a heal present, its the only one sorcs get in their tree while in combat. HP heal when criting, via AOE. I guess its broken if Im healing up AOEing people, even though Id instantly die if I was disabled or immobilized away from a group of people for more than 1.5 seconds.

I dont know why players like you dont just stick to PVE entirely.

Glurin wrote: »

ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

There you go. An ultimate that may have had a short duration, but could be stacked such that it healed for thousands of health a second and due to the low cost could also be chained for over a minute, which is a long time to kill something that is not a raid boss even on the PvE scale.

If you've got twenty people pounding on you at once, you should die in seconds. Doesn't matter what they use or where they stand. No player character should be able to simply absorb that much damage at once with no healers present.

But you missed the important part "Both invincible and considerable length of time can be voided though if the people fighting know what theyre doing." and you keep bitching about vampires? Just like 99% of the people around...and unfortunately the devs listened to the noobs and decided to not only fix the skills and how they work but to also nerf vamps in to the ground...GJ keep it up! One day the nerfs will hit you too and I'll be happy to see you come here and cry!

Oh I didn't miss it. In fact I addressed it directly, which you apparently ignored.

What you don't seem to understand is that even if by some strange coincidence each and every one of those twenty or thirty people are "noobs", they can still do considerable damage on one guy. More than enough to kill him. And if even one of those twenty or thirty "noobs" has half a brain and hits him hard with what are supposed to be his weaknesses, then he should drop like a sack of potatoes.

But that was not happening. Even with much more than half the group knowing how to kill a vampire and wearing decent gear, the exploit allowed him to essentially completely ignore them. You can't have a skill line that powerful and not expect a nerf to hit at some point.

Now can you elaborate on what exactly the exploit was? But in depth - go to the mechanics, what and how was done...nto just 'they click 2 buttons and I die'... Then we can talk again.

No point in dicussing something when you clearly only know "I see them doing X with Y thus Y is the problem" and you just like all the PvPers that believe them being very good just assume something without research and only rant about what you see not what the actual issue is...

I hear that DKs with 2-3 standards evaporate you again and I hope that's the case - you deserve it.

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

So what part of the skill line was an exploit? What was not intended? The only one that I can see possible is bat swarms stacking. But are you saying its not intended for ults to stack? Why is it every other ult stacks then? Are they all bugged too? Or theyre not bugged... its an exploit if you do it, and youre a cheater.

The bat stacking was an exploit. It was a bug that when taken advantage of made the player invincible for a considerable length of time, and that particular ultimate was not supposed to stack for that very reason. That doesn't mean other ultimates that happen to stack are also bugged. Some of them might be, but just because one wasn't supposed to doesn't mean they all aren't supposed to.

It was a bug because it made players 'invicible' for a 'considerable length of time'???

Yes.

Well, technically it's a bug because it's behavior was unintentional, but the invincibility is why it was unintentional.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Bat swarm drains health. If you have a lot of people around you while its up, you will drain a lot of health. You can still do that now. Are vamps still bugged because theyre invicible?

Considerable length of time... the ult is 5 seconds. To generate another is about 1-2 seconds. So you can run about 2-3 bat ults on top of each other if youre never CCd and enemies are piling around you. The only reason it is a 'considerable length of time' is because people are still piling around you.

I can chain bat ults for a minute straight still. Sure they dont stack, but Im still invicible, and for a considerable length of time. Both invincible and considerable length of time can be voided though if the people fighting know what theyre doing.

Im not against them having nerfed some of vamp. But to say it was an exploit, is just bad players being cry babies.

There you go. An ultimate that may have had a short duration, but could be stacked such that it healed for thousands of health a second and due to the low cost could also be chained for over a minute, which is a long time to kill something that is not a raid boss even on the PvE scale.

If you've got twenty people pounding on you at once, you should die in seconds. Doesn't matter what they use or where they stand. No player character should be able to simply absorb that much damage at once with no healers present.

You dont get it, and thats why you shouldnt have a valid opinion on the subject.

You dont need to stack 2 or 3 ults to heal yourself to max. As long as youre able to stand near 4+ people, youre going to heal up to full every tick, without stacking ults. This is how it stands now.

Youre essentially saying no matter what a player does, he shouldnt be able to fight overwhelming odds, even if the enemy is fighting in the worst manner they can. Essentially, rewarding completely inept players, like yourself.

I have a heal present, its the only one sorcs get in their tree while in combat. HP heal when criting, via AOE. I guess its broken if Im healing up AOEing people, even though Id instantly die if I was disabled or immobilized away from a group of people for more than 1.5 seconds.

I dont know why players like you dont just stick to PVE entirely.

You say all that, but PvP since the patch is proving you to be wrong. I have yet to experience or hear about Vamp Ult builds being able to do even half of what they could pre-patch. No more popping into a single room and DPSing down 50 people in 5 seconds. Are they still difficult to kill? Ya! Is it impossible without an entire guild like it was before. Nope.

You should go out and check your facts before you just spout off your assumptions

Dont know why youre saying you needed a lot of people to kill these vamps before??? Nothing changed in the patch that makes vamp running his ult die faster in a room with 50 people. Hes going to drain to full each tick. Taking them on solo was a lot more reasonable and still is if you fight near people that dont know what theyre doing, Id generally wait for them to kill people who piled on because Id just waste mana for the real fight.

Biggest issue was DKs running these ults on low cost with their high survival. DKs self survival is already on the ridiculous high-end for their offensive capabilities. While they cant do what they did with vamp ult solo, small groups of DKs stacking standards is a lot more destructive than vamp ults.

Im not spouting off assumptions when I tell people that vamps still drain to full before and after patch. If you can build your ult between them, you can essentially do what you did before this patch. A lot of DKs arent doing it anymore because they cant generate an ult in 1 skill like they were prepatch. The Cost reduction nerf is what hit hard there, not the stacking for survival.

Glurin wrote: »

Peterkorntvedb16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

2. Somebody's gotta have it slotted and ultimate built up for it. Bad thing to have just one counter as well. Especially when only one class has it.
3. Tried that, didn't work. Also you can't control the other twenty people that are there with you.

well
2. Yes one need to slot yes only one class has it, so u are 20 peeps if noone takes its there fail.
3. well if 20 peeps cant move 20 peeps deserve to die just like in pve boss fight


and for the rest of the points i made, they dont work!!! if ur 20 other peeps stand still like idiots... so there i suggest, that u wait till they are dead, and fight 1 vs 1 with the vamp...

and to ur question, should one be able to take out 20 player, answer is yes, if the 20 stand still and dont move... thats the concept of the class canon, High risk high reward...
plus this game is made as a reaction fight, not button spam stand still...

and the emperor, well thats him being awesome, and he is intend to be REALLY HARD to take down+. True adding high damage on him from a class canon spec makes him even more strong... but thats not the vampires fault.... its how the synergy where meant to work

2. You also have to build ultimate for it, which on one guy can take some time if you started at zero. Regardless, do you really think it's a good thing that there should be only one counter, which only one class has and to top it off is an ultimate? You really think it's a good thing that that counter be absolutely necessary to take down one vampire when you've got at least a couple dozen other people there with you fighting him?

3. PvP and PvE are different animals. Nobody should be so powerful in PvP that they can spam one or two buttons and kill twenty people at once without fear of being killed themselves, regardless of whether or not those twenty stand in the fire.

As for the rest, I think you meant glass cannon. The concept of which is you are fragile. As in you should not be able to absorb a hundred silver bolts coming at you at once, not to mention the multitude of other attacks, stuns included. The bat swarm exploit eliminated the "high risk" part so all the vampire had to do was "button spam stand still".

Also, I never mentioned the emperor. Fact is, those vampires didn't have to be emperor for the invulnerability to happen. The ones I ran into most definitely were not emperors because he was on our side at the time.

One more thing. You seem to have completely missed the part where we did use the direct, hard counters to vampires and they did squat against the exploiters. How would you feel if werewolves were completely invincible for the full duration of their transformation? Or if nightblades had a good two or three minutes of uninterruptible, untargetable invisibility? There was clearly something broken and if you can't admit that, then tough cookies. Just lean forward a little more so your tears don't miss the cup.

Vampire also have a ultimate that needs to fuel up, YES i agree with the stacking of reduction it came very low, and that broke it... The exploit of 0 Cost was a broken and need fixing....
That said, With the ultimate of anti bat, its a one that needs to be build up the same with the vamp, the vamp is only "God mode" when people are not smart enough to move out of AOE, and add slows and such...
Once Out of the AOE the Vamp goes down quickly....But as u said you dont play the 20 so u cant control them, well if they dont know how to move they deserve to die, that simple.
All movies i seen of vamps owning the grps stands almost still...

If the vamps AOE attack combo is not up or it gets CCed its over for vamp due to its weakness from fighter guild and fire.... even with Fire resists...
Weakness that is possible to negate partial, is still a weakness, since u given up a bunch of other goodies, for the negate.

The AOE is magic so damage can be lowered with SR.

Well there is only one Negate magic in game, well maybe thats a valid point, but that doesnt go to the vamp, that goes do we need more? if so what classes...

The combo that Sorc and DK used which is a Uproar for some! should be looked at, but not on the vamp side only, but at the combos created, if they are okay or not... and find a fix instead of blindly nerfing over the board... Without fixing the bugs of the MANY class skill...

If all the MANY class skill where fix, and they vamp own to great, then i dont mind looking for a Nerf, or rebalanced of some skills to fix this.. but when that isnt made, it makes me annoyed... especially since the nerf dont just effect the PVP, but also my PVE experience...

ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

What is it that you are having trouble understanding? Two or three or more simultaneous bat swarms allowed for considerable AoE damage in addition to enough health recovery to virtually ignore the incoming attacks from twenty, thirty or forty enemy players. Especially in combination with the 75% damage mitigation from mist form in addition to whatever else they already happened to have.

Now how much DPS do you think thirty people can generate? In total. I'm not interested in the DPS of individual players because it's irrelevant in this case. And don't you dare try claiming that each and every one of them is a completely incompetent noob spamming nothing but light attacks with a sword or something. Although I might be inclined to let you claim that not a single one of them thought to consider using fire or fighters guild abilities.

Now ask yourself if the game is at all balanced in that state or if such behavior would be intentional.

By the way, one thing being imbalanced does not justify another.

So now let's try to continue from here...

What gave the exploiters the ability you described?

And let me see if you will agree with the issues I describe:
1) Stackable ultimates on top of each other - bug / exploit/whatever you like to call it -> MUST BE GONE! (already done)
2) Stackable cost reduction WITHOUT ANY CAP! -> Must be gone (nothing done here)
3) Healing (only from Bat Swarm) during mist form even thou the ability description clearly states that you can't receive healing -> Must be fixed! (nothing done here)

So instead of placing a hard cap on how much an ability cost can be reduced and fixing the other 2 things they nerfed heavily a skill line without even fixing its passives. Do you still believe that's the correct way?

Why not do the 3 things I stated above and see how it goes? A nerf is easy to do it's just a change of a value in a table and can be done 1-2 weeks later if the problem continue...

Plus if you do a heavy change on a skill line - everybody affected deserves a free respec as most people have not exploited and shouldn't pay for the guilt of a few...


Edit: I'll not answer to stupid questions. Obviously 1 player shouldn't be like a vanila WoW raid boss (they were 40 man back then), the thing that is pointed by most of the people "crying" about the Vamps nerf is that it was NOT justified as there was better way to fix the problem AND AFTER THIS if there is need nerfs can be done with ease!

1. Well well, looks like we made some progress.

2. They did reduce the reduction on vamp abilities. Reduction everywhere else is not causing that much of a problem at the moment. At least not on the scale that it was on vampires. You have to realize that if you nerf reduction in general, you're hitting every other ultimate. Not just bat swarm.

3. Mist form has other bugs, apparently. They will be fixed in time. Not sure there's been word from the devs on whether drain healing in mist form was intentional, though it is doubtful that it is. However, with the bat swarm fix and the cost reduction nerfed, the combination is not nearly as strong as it was.

Interesting how you state a nerf was not justified after finally admitting that it was though.