Braffin wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Serpari wrote: »

derkaiserliche wrote: »

I understand the frustration but lets be honest here: Noone can ban a player for spamming skills or emotes.

Maybe a solution would be to have a roleplay guild and meet up in the guildhouse (build and furnished like a tavern) and enjoy ur rp there in peace..

When abused as a tool for harassment? They absolutely can and they have done so in the past. It's also in the TOS. And again, I already do these things (going into a private residence and RPing there). Still doesn't solve my problem of being harassed in public.

but how can you tell they are doing it as a form of harassment ? you have no idea what is going through that person's mind so its not like you can prove ill will.

sorry but this whole thread is alien to me -- i figure with all of the stuff that actually needs to be fixed in this game, what a group of goobers is doing in a tavern in one town doesnt seem to break the top 100 list.

It's not necessary to know what exactly is going through a person's mind. It's sufficient to assume harassment, if a player continues to use mementos on another player after being asked to stop. That's not hard to understand.

I won't defend hypocrits, which are demanding, that those mementos (which have their valid use outside harassing situations) are removed from the game.

But continuing to use said mementos on players, which already stated, that they feel uncomfortable by being targeted, is clearly against ToS and should be punished appropiately.

Can they not role play a character that behaves that way, or is role playing only valid if the role they're playing is within your personal bounds for acceptability? The whole point of role playing is that you attribute their actions to their character, not their IRL persona. I'm wondering if most people here have ever actually experienced real role playing - in a game or otherwise.

I'm actually interested in a response. This is not a troll question.

Have we gotten to the point where role playing is only role playing if you're pleasant and agreeable with the group of people who feel they have moral high ground to dictate the terms of those interactions? That actually sounds more like a mirror of the current political climate outside of game. As if people are attempting to recreate that within ESO, while still having veto power of RP behaviors of others within that game.

The freedom to be was (and presumably is) the basis of role playing. That means you can be agreeable or disagreeable, good or evil, accepting or discriminating. In fact, the lore of this game is full of such behaviors, but everyone here has no issues playing the game. If you role play within that environment, what should one expect?

I also find it odd that people are talking about being "uncomfortable being targeted" in a role-playing game based on 3-Faction Warfare with Elder Scrolls' lore backing. Like I said, it just seems like external dynamics being reconstructed within the game.

And I think that's a conversation worth having, if anyone wants to.

Or we can just ask or those people to be "cancelled." I guess that's fine, too!

Trensharo wrote: »

Can they not role play a character that behaves that way, or is role playing only valid if the role they're playing is within your personal bounds for acceptability? The whole point of role playing is that you attribute their actions to their character, not their IRL persona. I'm wondering if most people here have ever actually experienced real role playing - in a game or otherwise.

I'm actually interested in a response. This is not a troll question.

Have we gotten to the point where role playing is only role playing if you're pleasant and agreeable with the group of people who feel they have moral high ground to dictate the terms of those interactions? That actually sounds more like a mirror of the current political climate outside of game. As if people are attempting to recreate that within ESO, while still having veto power of RP behaviors of others within that game.

The freedom to be was (and presumably is) the basis of role playing. That means you can be agreeable or disagreeable, good or evil, accepting or discriminating. In fact, the lore of this game is full of such behaviors, but everyone here has no issues playing the game. If you role play within that environment, what should one expect?

I also find it odd that people are talking about being "uncomfortable being targeted" in a role-playing game based on 3-Faction Warfare with Elder Scrolls' lore backing. Like I said, it just seems like external dynamics being reconstructed within the game.

And I think that's a conversation worth having, if anyone wants to.

Or we can just ask or those people to be "cancelled." I guess that's fine, too!

There's a difference if I roleplay with people I know or with strangers. Certain behaviors or character concepts that are fine if you know the people, e.g.a PnP group that has played together for years, are simply unacceptable when RPing with strangers. It's basically "Your freedom to be/do whatever ends where it affects others and impacts their freedom".
Not to mention that using the excuse of "it's part of my RP to throw mudballs at people and be generally disruptive/annoying" is basically ignoring any consequences these actions actions would have since nearby NPCs can't react appropriately. Or do you honestly think the innkeeper and other NPCs would allow that sort of behavior?

There is reason why many GMs in PnP don't allow evil characters in their campaigns. Such characters tend to be disruptive, causing everyone at the table to have a miserable time.

xilfxlegion wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

i think that no matter where you go in life there will be people that will be butt heads - but unlike real life this one has an easy answer which is dont go there if you know these idiots are gonna do that. maybe its because i am older and completely ignorant of the whole rp culture, but to me, and keep in mind my opinion is solely mine, this is minor in the grand scheme of things and certainly doesnt warrant multiple threads.

But in reality, there are also house rules. If someone at a railway station, shopping mall or exhibition center randomly screams at other visitors or even throws things at them, security will come and throw them out. I don't see any difference here.

except that one is real life.

if in real life a psycho is screaming at you then yes i fully agree.

but in a video game - where they arent screaming but typing and doing emotes -- vastly different.

I always find it absurd when people use the "video games aren't real life" excuse in an attempt to minimize the emotions of others who are being repeatedly harassed.

Is the world of Tamriel real? No. Are the characters real? No.

But the people behind the screen controlling the characters are real, and so are their choices and actions. The people being harassed are real people, with real emotions. The people who have decided to harass others, are real people, who have made the -very real- choice to go out of their way to do something that they know will cause emotional distress to another human being. The fact that it is taking place in a digital environment doesn't matter- the intentions are real.

No- people are not literally having mudballs thrown at them. But that doesn't make the harasser's desire to be disruptive any less real. The mudball may not be real, but the choice to use an emote to purposely annoy someone is.

It is no different than someone choosing to go out of their way to harass someone on a forum, or in a chat room- it is a public space, albeit a digital one, and there are rules by which one must conduct ones self. Putting a fancy skin over it and making it pretty- IE, a video game, doesn't make it different.

It is high time people stopped using the excuse "but it's not real" to justify online bullying. Bullying is real, regardless of the form it takes, and it should be treated as a serious issue with real consequences.

Words are still words, spoken or typed. And they can still cause harm to those who have to endure these kinds of senseless, repeated acts of malice just to do something they enjoy.

It may not effect me, but I still empathize, deeply, with the victims, and I hope that greater efforts are put fourth in the future to protect them.

i find it absurd that there are now three pages in this post. i also find the current day definition of bullying absurd. while i am not one to yuck anyone's yum, at the end of the day this game has much bigger problems than people using emotes in a tavern in the game. now, im not making light of actual cyber-bullying, but this falls well below the threshold of anything harmful or evil. it's just a bunch of idiots spamming emotes.

Which is a form of cyberbullying when the victim has repeatedly requested that the other party stops, and they choose not to stop.

There's a thing called "consent" and it exists even in digital spaces.

The fact that you chose the phrase "yuck someone's yum" as a way to minimize and insult the victims of bullying tells me all I need to know, and that your posts on the topic are not to be taken seriously.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

i think that no matter where you go in life there will be people that will be butt heads - but unlike real life this one has an easy answer which is dont go there if you know these idiots are gonna do that. maybe its because i am older and completely ignorant of the whole rp culture, but to me, and keep in mind my opinion is solely mine, this is minor in the grand scheme of things and certainly doesnt warrant multiple threads.

But in reality, there are also house rules. If someone at a railway station, shopping mall or exhibition center randomly screams at other visitors or even throws things at them, security will come and throw them out. I don't see any difference here.

except that one is real life.

if in real life a psycho is screaming at you then yes i fully agree.

but in a video game - where they arent screaming but typing and doing emotes -- vastly different.

I always find it absurd when people use the "video games aren't real life" excuse in an attempt to minimize the emotions of others who are being repeatedly harassed.

Is the world of Tamriel real? No. Are the characters real? No.

But the people behind the screen controlling the characters are real, and so are their choices and actions. The people being harassed are real people, with real emotions. The people who have decided to harass others, are real people, who have made the -very real- choice to go out of their way to do something that they know will cause emotional distress to another human being. The fact that it is taking place in a digital environment doesn't matter- the intentions are real.

No- people are not literally having mudballs thrown at them. But that doesn't make the harasser's desire to be disruptive any less real. The mudball may not be real, but the choice to use an emote to purposely annoy someone is.

It is no different than someone choosing to go out of their way to harass someone on a forum, or in a chat room- it is a public space, albeit a digital one, and there are rules by which one must conduct ones self. Putting a fancy skin over it and making it pretty- IE, a video game, doesn't make it different.

It is high time people stopped using the excuse "but it's not real" to justify online bullying. Bullying is real, regardless of the form it takes, and it should be treated as a serious issue with real consequences.

Words are still words, spoken or typed. And they can still cause harm to those who have to endure these kinds of senseless, repeated acts of malice just to do something they enjoy.

It may not effect me, but I still empathize, deeply, with the victims, and I hope that greater efforts are put fourth in the future to protect them.

i find it absurd that there are now three pages in this post. i also find the current day definition of bullying absurd. while i am not one to yuck anyone's yum, at the end of the day this game has much bigger problems than people using emotes in a tavern in the game. now, im not making light of actual cyber-bullying, but this falls well below the threshold of anything harmful or evil. it's just a bunch of idiots spamming emotes.

Which is a form of cyberbullying when the victim has repeatedly requested that the other party stops, and they choose not to stop.

There's a thing called "consent" and it exists even in digital spaces.

The fact that you chose the phrase "yuck someone's yum" as a way to minimize and insult the victims of bullying tells me all I need to know, and that your posts on the topic are not to be taken seriously.

i didnt choose the phrase to minimize and insult the " victims ", i thought the rest of my posts in this thread already conveyed my thoughts and general disdain with any of this being considered bullying.

Trensharo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Serpari wrote: »

derkaiserliche wrote: »

I understand the frustration but lets be honest here: Noone can ban a player for spamming skills or emotes.

Maybe a solution would be to have a roleplay guild and meet up in the guildhouse (build and furnished like a tavern) and enjoy ur rp there in peace..

When abused as a tool for harassment? They absolutely can and they have done so in the past. It's also in the TOS. And again, I already do these things (going into a private residence and RPing there). Still doesn't solve my problem of being harassed in public.

but how can you tell they are doing it as a form of harassment ? you have no idea what is going through that person's mind so its not like you can prove ill will.

sorry but this whole thread is alien to me -- i figure with all of the stuff that actually needs to be fixed in this game, what a group of goobers is doing in a tavern in one town doesnt seem to break the top 100 list.

It's not necessary to know what exactly is going through a person's mind. It's sufficient to assume harassment, if a player continues to use mementos on another player after being asked to stop. That's not hard to understand.

I won't defend hypocrits, which are demanding, that those mementos (which have their valid use outside harassing situations) are removed from the game.

But continuing to use said mementos on players, which already stated, that they feel uncomfortable by being targeted, is clearly against ToS and should be punished appropiately.

Can they not role play a character that behaves that way, or is role playing only valid if the role they're playing is within your personal bounds for acceptability? The whole point of role playing is that you attribute their actions to their character, not their IRL persona. I'm wondering if most people here have ever actually experienced real role playing - in a game or otherwise.

I'm actually interested in a response. This is not a troll question.

Have we gotten to the point where role playing is only role playing if you're pleasant and agreeable with the group of people who feel they have moral high ground to dictate the terms of those interactions? That actually sounds more like a mirror of the current political climate outside of game. As if people are attempting to recreate that within ESO, while still having veto power of RP behaviors of others within that game.

The freedom to be was (and presumably is) the basis of role playing. That means you can be agreeable or disagreeable, good or evil, accepting or discriminating. In fact, the lore of this game is full of such behaviors, but everyone here has no issues playing the game. If you role play within that environment, what should one expect?

I also find it odd that people are talking about being "uncomfortable being targeted" in a role-playing game based on 3-Faction Warfare with Elder Scrolls' lore backing. Like I said, it just seems like external dynamics being reconstructed within the game.

And I think that's a conversation worth having, if anyone wants to.

Or we can just ask or those people to be "cancelled." I guess that's fine, too!

Sure, let's talk about it.

First of all I think you mixing up two levels of interaction, which need to be separated, especially regarding role-playing: On one side we talk about actual roles people are embodying while playing, on the other hand about players, which willingly decide (or refuse) to play a game together.

Of course everyone is free to embody a role of their personal liking, agreement of others isn't necessary. If the person playing their role is interested in grouping up with other likeminded people for the sake of playing together they will have to ask for consent of the other participants to avoid unpleasantness. If they don't, it's very well possible, that other players aren't interested in participating and react by telling the player to leave them alone. Ignoring that will cause a reaction. Some affected people will simply leave the scenery and retreat from the bullying character, others will actively fight the disruptive behaviour.

An example: If we met at a restaurant and you are trying to get in touch with me, while I'm not interested, I'll politely ask you to leave me alone. If you don't comply and insist on further direct interaction, I talk to the owner of said restaurant to have you removed.

The very same is the case in video games. Buying and playing a game, doesn't mean I pledged myself to interact with every other person, which is also playing this game. I, as a customer, don't have to interact with any specific other player around, neither for PvE nor PvP. And also not for roleplaying. I'm free to decide who I want to play with. So, if I ask someone to leave me alone and the other player is continuing to be intrusive, I don't have to be "woke" to feel harassed. Simply because it's common sense already.

We also have clear rules, when playing this game, put down in writing in ToS. If we ignore someone asking us to stop our behaviour (which has to be direct interaction with said person), then we break ToS (the rules of the game and somewhat "law" of tamriel) and should be appropiately punished.

So, it's not about the current political climate and not about silencing or cancelling anybody, but simply about normal interpersonal interaction. Playing a video game doesn't exonerate us from personal responsibility for our actions, even if we are RPing an individual, which doesn't care about that.

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Suddwrath wrote: »

[snip]

“Harass, stalk, threaten, embarrass, spam or do anything else to another user of any Services that is unwanted, such as repeatedly sending unwanted messages or making personal attacks or statements about race, ethnicity, sex, gender, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc.;”

“Engage in disruptive behavior in chat areas, game areas, forums, or any other area or aspect of the Services. Examples of disruptive behavior include, but are not limited to, conduct which interferes with the normal flow of gameplay or dialogue within a Service, vulgar language, abusiveness, hitting the return key repeatedly or inputting large images so the screen goes by too fast to read, use of excessive shouting (i.e., all text in capitals) in an attempt to disturb other users, "spamming" or flooding (i.e., posting repetitive text), commercial postings, solicitations and advertisements, posting advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities.”

All players agree to abide by the conduct in the terms of service. If you don’t like that it prohibits you from spamming, disrupting, and harassing others, then find another game to play

nowhere in the above post does it describe rp'ing as the normal flow of gameplay.

again, im not trying to troll, and i am not trying to dismiss harassment --- i am just waiting for an actual example of harassment.

Need an example? Here you go:

Mudballing another player repeatedly over the course of 30 minutes on cooldown of the memento after said player asked you to stop and leave them be.

[edited to remove quote]

Braffin wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Suddwrath wrote: »

[snip]

“Harass, stalk, threaten, embarrass, spam or do anything else to another user of any Services that is unwanted, such as repeatedly sending unwanted messages or making personal attacks or statements about race, ethnicity, sex, gender, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc.;”

“Engage in disruptive behavior in chat areas, game areas, forums, or any other area or aspect of the Services. Examples of disruptive behavior include, but are not limited to, conduct which interferes with the normal flow of gameplay or dialogue within a Service, vulgar language, abusiveness, hitting the return key repeatedly or inputting large images so the screen goes by too fast to read, use of excessive shouting (i.e., all text in capitals) in an attempt to disturb other users, "spamming" or flooding (i.e., posting repetitive text), commercial postings, solicitations and advertisements, posting advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities.”

All players agree to abide by the conduct in the terms of service. If you don’t like that it prohibits you from spamming, disrupting, and harassing others, then find another game to play

nowhere in the above post does it describe rp'ing as the normal flow of gameplay.

again, im not trying to troll, and i am not trying to dismiss harassment --- i am just waiting for an actual example of harassment.

Need an example? Here you go:

Mudballing another player repeatedly over the course of 30 minutes on cooldown of the memento after said player asked you to stop and leave them be.

and in this example i can understand --- it affects your character. especially if youre at a changing station.
but if youre standing in the tavern and people are doing emotes that do not affect your character how is it harassment, simply because you do not like it ?

[edited to remove quote]

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Suddwrath wrote: »

[snip]

“Harass, stalk, threaten, embarrass, spam or do anything else to another user of any Services that is unwanted, such as repeatedly sending unwanted messages or making personal attacks or statements about race, ethnicity, sex, gender, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc.;”

“Engage in disruptive behavior in chat areas, game areas, forums, or any other area or aspect of the Services. Examples of disruptive behavior include, but are not limited to, conduct which interferes with the normal flow of gameplay or dialogue within a Service, vulgar language, abusiveness, hitting the return key repeatedly or inputting large images so the screen goes by too fast to read, use of excessive shouting (i.e., all text in capitals) in an attempt to disturb other users, "spamming" or flooding (i.e., posting repetitive text), commercial postings, solicitations and advertisements, posting advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities.”

All players agree to abide by the conduct in the terms of service. If you don’t like that it prohibits you from spamming, disrupting, and harassing others, then find another game to play

nowhere in the above post does it describe rp'ing as the normal flow of gameplay.

again, im not trying to troll, and i am not trying to dismiss harassment --- i am just waiting for an actual example of harassment.

Need an example? Here you go:

Mudballing another player repeatedly over the course of 30 minutes on cooldown of the memento after said player asked you to stop and leave them be.

and in this example i can understand --- it affects your character. especially if youre at a changing station.
but if youre standing in the tavern and people are doing emotes that do not affect your character how is it harassment, simply because you do not like it ?

It isn't, that's normal and usual gameplay.

It's not what OP is reporting tho, as they clearly speak about directed interaction against their character:

various players purposely spamming mementos, spamming abilities, attacking NPCs and using them to knock people out of place/out of their emotes, and harassing people in zone chat. It's the same people consistently

[edited to remove quote]

ghastley wrote: »

Devil’s advocate post here: is there any chance this is a reaction to the RP’ers doing the same by “taking over” the location, and making it unusable for normal play?

How are RPers "taking over" a location by standing at the bar together and typing something in /say-chat?

I meet several RPers regularily at The Rosy Lion and never felt harassed by their roleplay. On the contrary, they invigorate the scenery of a fantasy tavern and help with immersion.

Why the heck should I try to chase them away?

What's the motivation?

I like watching the RP session play out. It gives life to an area. But usually when I get pelted by mudballs or pies I'm not sticking around. Can only imagine what the actual group is going through though.
I've told people to stop but only to be ignored or laughed at. It's made me log off the game or try leaving the area.
So, the harassment is there. Just some find it funny to grief others enjoyment.

I don't understand how harassing other people, who purchased the game like you did, who have the right to play the game undisturbed like you do, is such a contentious issue. If you're going to come here to argue that people have a right to harass others, plausible deniability or whatever, we have nothing to discuss.

By the way, if you're all wondering why some people don't feel comfortable speaking out against harassment, this is the third or so troll I've had to deal with because of this thread. It puts a target on you:

<snip image>

Syldras wrote: »

The weirdest thing to me in this whole thread is the need of some people to defend an alleged "right" to annoy other players on purpose (complete strangers - I'm not talking about friends teasing eachother). What is the behaviour even for? Letting real-life frustration out on random people online because doing so in real life would earn you a punch on your nose?

The responses stating I'm calling for people to be 'cancelled', to 'call the city guard' on them, acting like I'm treating this like a legal case where I'm judge, jury and executioner are funny to me. No, I just want the TOS as it stands to be enforced. Give these people suspensions, then bans if particularly egregious. That's it.

We are all adults. And while I don't have the power to stop these trolls from harassing others, I do have the power to make my grievances known, cancel my ESO subscription, stop playing the game, stop giving Zenimax my money and also influence said decisions of other people.

If I were Zenimax, I would care about losing customers to situations like this, because it affects my bottom line.

<snipped image due to language>

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

i find it absurd that there are now three pages in this post. i also find the current day definition of bullying absurd. while i am not one to yuck anyone's yum, at the end of the day this game has much bigger problems than people using emotes in a tavern in the game. now, im not making light of actual cyber-bullying, but this falls well below the threshold of anything harmful or evil. it's just a bunch of idiots spamming emotes.

Let's indeed leave the legal definition of cyberbullying to the lawyers. But in plain, common-sense language: If you're watching a movie and someone else intentionally and repeatedly disrupts that experience, wouldn't you ask the movie theater to get rid of the idiot? Or do you expect everyone else in the audience to leave and go find another screening?

and again, as i stated earlier in the thread, that is real life. people typing in chat (which you can turn off ) and people spamming emotes is not in any way the same as a nutjob screaming at you in real life.

No, it's still harassment. Not all harassment is face-to-face.