Templar Burst ability

Galeriano · December 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Why does it feel I am somehow reading an argument that Templar is stronger than NB and DK?

If all they’re doing on Templar is dueling, then I could see the comparison, but Templar struggles to remain a competitive choice literally anywhere else.

No it does not struggle to remain competitive anywhere else. It only struggles in specific scenarios. It is still for example one of the more solid choices for a group play. Currently in overall effectiveness templar is usually in upper halfs of the tier lists. He's not a top dog but he is also not a bottom tier for sure.

Tyrant_Tim · December 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Why does it feel I am somehow reading an argument that Templar is stronger than NB and DK?

If all they’re doing on Templar is dueling, then I could see the comparison, but Templar struggles to remain a competitive choice literally anywhere else.

No it does not struggle to remain competitive anywhere else. It only struggles in specific scenarios. It is still for example one of the more solid choices for a group play. Currently in overall effectiveness templar is usually in upper halfs of the tier lists. He's not a top dog but he is also not a bottom tier for sure.

Templar isn’t bottom tier? Let me show you what a raid composition looks like in ESO for every trial except one.

Support Necro in EC, Support DK in ZenKosh, Support Sorc in MK/Spaulder, FIVE Arcanist DDs in Riptide and Deadly, a DK Tank in Pearlescent Turning Tide, a Cro Tank in Saxheel’s PA, a Warden Healer in SPC/Pillager, and a Nightblade Healer in RoJo.

Do you see Templar anywhere on that list? It appears every other class is covered, doesn’t it?

Your serious score pushing groups don’t run Templar anymore, they were completely replaced with Dragonknight before Arcanist, now Arcanist has replaced everyone, where other classes are optimized for Support roles, Templar does nothing best.

There is no saving grace, we don’t have that one thing we’re better than everyone else at, before we were scraping the barrel for Asylum, and now we’ve been completely replaced there too.

As far as PvP? Where do they shine? It isn’t in Cyrodiil, Imperial City or Battlegrounds…

Templar is the hardest class to fight outnumbered with, as your entire defense is in healing, something that can be both Defiled and impacted by both forms of Cowardice. I did the math on another thread, but I think there were only 3 skills in the entire Templar kit that don’t scale with Weapon and Spell Damage. Our unique defensive skills were an offensive scaling burst heal, and a purge.

Years ago classes like Nightblade copied our burst heal and did it better, and the last unique thing we had was Extended Ritual, a skill already nerfed into the ground, but now worse. With Elemental Susceptibility flooding you with Status Effects at zero cost while providing a staple debuff, our unique purge is useless, because every time we use it, we lose 5,000 magicka, our opponent spends 0 magicka and reapplies everything.

Now, I fail to see where Templar shines, there are just better options everywhere.

TechMaybeHic · December 2023

Living dark, Radiant oppressed, and javelin seems to be the strongest part and what people point to over giving burst; but I don't see how you kill much with those.

You'll probably be brought full circle to the meteor, javelin, beam combo; which range is kind of crappy in large fights where you cannot set on a target very well

Tyrant_Tim · December 2023

This is going to be a lot to read, so I’m adding “spoilers” as quasi-tabs to see my perspective on the associated skills in an attempt to prevent an overwhelmingly large wall of text.

Living Dark

What people fail to understand is that there is only one spammable that Templar can block-cast, being Crushing Shock, so you need to protect yourself while going offense, like how other classes hold block and get massive mitigation for a negligible amount of stamina. otherwise you’re stuck on your backbar turtling like pre-Living Dark, and then you hear complaints about how unkillable Templar is even more-so, failing to see how everything fits in relation.

By it’s self Living Dark on paper is a strong skill, but when you factor in the whole picture, being how dependent on healing the class is because of it’s lack of a damage mitigation or movement speed like other classes, it becomes more clear than ever that it’s a necessary part of playing the class if you plan on going Offense at all, outside of dueling.

Radiant Oppression

Radiant Oppression is back-end damage meaning the skill doesn’t do it’s damage immediately, you get the damage at the end of the 1s, where executes like Executioner and Impale do their damage at the beginning of the 1s of activation. At first glance this doesn’t seem like much of a difference, but when you factor in how the servers run, and how easily players get desynchronized with the server, front-end executes are more likely to secure kills than back-end ones. Meaning, that although Radiant Oppression is a strong skill, there are plenty of situations where I actually prefer running Executioner, or Whirling Blades.

Aurora Javelin

This skill is finally in a place where it should be, for the longest time you never saw players slot this skill because Toppling Charge was just better in every way shape and form. I understand it can be frustrating to get slammed by an unblockable yet dodgeable Javelin for like 3k damage, the real problem is how this correlates with the current meta we’re playing.

When you have the ability to flood other players with nasty DoTs, any knockback skill is going to do wonders. For some reason, knockbacks occasionally allow a player to get hit by a free skill unlike regular stuns, you can see this commonly with the interaction between Dragon Leap and Whip.

This means, that an entire second of DoTs can eat through an opponent’s health while Radiant Oppression… a skill that normally doesn’t get to do it’s full damage on the first tick because it’s back-ended on the first second, gets to do it’s full damage. When you combine the two it can be pretty devastating.

When the meta shifts, which it will, players will be unable to eat people alive with a hundred DoT procs and that synergy alone with Javelin and Radiant won’t be anywhere near as powerful as it is currently when that day comes.

Now, where this all comes together, is that most, if not all of the skills Templars are using to do damage in PvP are Single-Target.

Our class doesn’t have the capability to disappear mid-fight and isolate targets, or the ability to sit from afar and rain death on people, so we’re forced to get right into the fight and try to pick a player out while we’re getting absolutely hammered on.

When we had skills like Sun Shield, you could jump into a group and be protected enough to at least engage your target, now we have to depend on healing and pray to Stendar that someone that’s part of the group we’re jumping into doesn’t have Minor or Major Cowardice, Minor or Major Defile, and finally Minor or Major Maim, and if we’re really unlucky there’s always the possibility that someone’s running Jerall Warchief.

There are better classes to duel with, better classes to play Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and Battlegrounds with, and they have no demand in PvE whatsoever.

I know other classes have their problems, like Necromancer, a class in an even worse state for PvP, but hopefully after reading this, people can finally understand why Templar mains have felt like they’re drowning.

Galeriano · December 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Why does it feel I am somehow reading an argument that Templar is stronger than NB and DK?

If all they’re doing on Templar is dueling, then I could see the comparison, but Templar struggles to remain a competitive choice literally anywhere else.

No it does not struggle to remain competitive anywhere else. It only struggles in specific scenarios. It is still for example one of the more solid choices for a group play. Currently in overall effectiveness templar is usually in upper halfs of the tier lists. He's not a top dog but he is also not a bottom tier for sure.

Templar isn’t bottom tier? Let me show you what a raid composition looks like in ESO for every trial except one.

Support Necro in EC, Support DK in ZenKosh, Support Sorc in MK/Spaulder, FIVE Arcanist DDs in Riptide and Deadly, a DK Tank in Pearlescent Turning Tide, a Cro Tank in Saxheel’s PA, a Warden Healer in SPC/Pillager, and a Nightblade Healer in RoJo.

Do you see Templar anywhere on that list? It appears every other class is covered, doesn’t it?

Your serious score pushing groups don’t run Templar anymore, they were completely replaced with Dragonknight before Arcanist, now Arcanist has replaced everyone, where other classes are optimized for Support roles, Templar does nothing best.

There is no saving grace, we don’t have that one thing we’re better than everyone else at, before we were scraping the barrel for Asylum, and now we’ve been completely replaced there too.

As far as PvP? Where do they shine? It isn’t in Cyrodiil, Imperial City or Battlegrounds…

Templar is the hardest class to fight outnumbered with, as your entire defense is in healing, something that can be both Defiled and impacted by both forms of Cowardice. I did the math on another thread, but I think there were only 3 skills in the entire Templar kit that don’t scale with Weapon and Spell Damage. Our unique defensive skills were an offensive scaling burst heal, and a purge.

Years ago classes like Nightblade copied our burst heal and did it better, and the last unique thing we had was Extended Ritual, a skill already nerfed into the ground, but now worse. With Elemental Susceptibility flooding you with Status Effects at zero cost while providing a staple debuff, our unique purge is useless, because every time we use it, we lose 5,000 magicka, our opponent spends 0 magicka and reapplies everything.

Now, I fail to see where Templar shines, there are just better options everywhere.

In raid composition if some class is even 3-5% in terms of DPS behind a top choice and that class doesnt have any unique support that others can bring that it will be often excluded from fully optimised runs . Fully optimised is a key phrase here. Fact that You don't see templar is fully optimised raid groups does not mean it's a bottom tier in PvE DPS. It's not.

You also don't see nightblades that often in these fully optimised runs. I don't know where did You find that info that nb is commonly used as rojo healer. If anything I would assume nightblade healer will be using pillagers profit due to nice ulti charge on that class, but barely anyone is bringing up nightblade into the fully optimsied group anyway because crit buff can be provided by sorc who also can give group a major berserk from atro synergy and more synergies in general and nightblade as a DD is not the grestest atm and any class can wear support sets on a healer.

Templar is actualy seen more often in optimised teams than nightblade. He is still doing pretty nice as DD and ok as a healer. You can just visit eso logs website. In top 100 table for best score You will find 12 templars and 0 nightblades in vSE HM which is the newest content, 9 templars and 5 nightblades in vDSR HM, 2 templars and 4 nightblades in vRG HM , 6 templars and 1 nightblade in vKA HM , 5 templars and 5 nightblades in vSS HM , 6 templars and 3 nightblades in vCR HM, 5 templars 4 nightblades in vAS HM, 4 templars 2 nightblades in vHoF HM, 3 templars and 4 nightblades in vMoL HM so templar is doing better than nightblade and nightblade doesn't seem like a popular meta choice. In trials in general good templar player can still parse really nice numbers. Templar also holds best score in vateshran hollows and is known for being one of the top classes for PvE solo play including vet DLC HM dungeons. While definietly not being a top dog he is still not bottom tier.

Looking only at fully optimised scorepusing runs is really bad indicator of how class is doing in general because like I've already said even if You are just slightly behind top dog option You will be often excluded from scorepusing but that doesn't mean You will be excluded from everything or that You will be doing poorly everywhere in PvE. Scorepushing raid groups are possibly less than 1% of PvE population.

As far as PvP goes You are making the same mistake if You ask "where do they shine". Fact that templar is not a top dog there doesn't mean it's weak. You can make really strong templar builds for BGs or for group play in Cyro/IC, quite frankly templar is one of the best choices for group play. When it comes to fighting outnumbered than yes it's not the best class but let's be honest 1vXing is almost dead in pvp lately. Despite that I would still put some setups lower than templar in terms of 1vXing.

Overall while not being the strongest class it's still far from calling templar the weakest or bottom tier. You can still find it in A tier in many of the tier lists and usually both mag and stam version are in upper halfs or somwhere in the middle.

Tyrant_Tim · December 2023

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Galeriano · December 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

I think people are aware of nightblade's healer effectiveness but at the end of the day he really is not as beneficial as some other classes are. While major cowardice is nice if it would be really needed it could be broght to the team through different sources and minor cowardice can be provided reliably by wardens. There is a reason in fully optimised groups You will be almost always seeing warden+arcanist healer combo occasionally with some necro twist. These 3 classes simply bring the most to the table. Warden is a must have due to minor toughness alone, arcanist healer is brainlesly easy source of minor brittle, minor courage and minor vulnerability it have unique AOE shields and unique 200 wep/spell dmg buff from glyphic ultimate. Necro healer is obviously used to bump up uptime on major vulnerability and sometimes it can build ulti charge faster than nb have with the use of necrotic potency ability. Nightblade have hard time competing with them with just cowardice.

Adding new support set won't solve templar's issue. Different classes are being usually taken as support roles because they have something unique in their class kits. Sorc have major berserk from atro synergy and minor prophecy. DK have stagger from stone giant, unique flame dmg taken debuff from engulfing flames and minor brutality. Necro have major vulnerability from colossus, occasionally nice ulti charge and easy acces to all 3 elemental dmg types which makes him perfect choice for elemental catalyst user. Templar lost all of his uniqueness. In the past he had acces to minor breach which wasnl;t that common but that is gone and due to hybrydisation his minor sorcery buff is being useless because DK provides minor brutality similarly how nightblade minor savagery is useless because of sorc's minor prophecy. If ZoS would add another nice support set than either one arcanist DD would start using it or another spot would be taken by sorc to emp up major berserk uptime even further or who knows maybe people would even consider taking nightblade for that cowardice. Templar simply lacks anything unique that only he could bring to the table so when full optimisation is at play he will find himself in not the best place.

Yes templar lost lot of unique stuff accross the years. I can add shards to the list which in the past were unique and later equalised with orb. Sadly it's not just templar that lost lots of uniqunes throughout the years. Almost every base game class have lost lot of unique features it had.

I don't think PvP is the RP content type. As for "shining" the problem is You cant have all the classes shining at everything. Where templar shines in PvP is duelling and group play.

Tyrant_Tim · December 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Adding new support set won't solve templar's issue.

Azureblight, the set I referenced was one that worked primarily with Jabs. Right now there are sets that work best with certain classes, in example; Zen relies on active Damage-Over-Time on targets and Dragonknight has the most of them, EC works with Necro so well because the class has both (frost) Avid Boneyard and (shock) Mystic Siphon all while Necro’s Blastbones rotation plays perfectly into the timer on the set.

I’m not suggesting a new set that every class could use equally, but a new support set that makes Templar specifically a desirable option.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Different classes are being usually taken as support roles because they have something unique in their class kits.

This is an excellent point, I’ve been very vocal about trying to get Major Courage for the class as tank utility, and I think if Sun Shield doesn’t get a rework, it at least needs groupwide Major Courage for 10 seconds on activation for teammates within the radius. This would both solve Templar’s group uniqueness problem, while creating a scenario where Templar tanks are finally desirable.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

I don't think PvP is the RP content type. As for "shining" the problem is You cant have all the classes shining at everything. Where templar shines in PvP is duelling and group play.

This is where you’re absolutely dead wrong, PvP is the only form of endgame content where you CAN roleplay. Build diversity is non-existent in PvE, whereas in PvP you can make unique builds that can occasionally find success.

Also, for Templar to “shine” in dueling and group play, it would need to provide something unique in either of those areas and we’ve already established Templar doesn’t have anything unique.

You might know a few decent duelists that play Templar, I’m one of them, but I can tell you, the last time a Templar won a public dueling tournament on my platform was pre-Update 35. Dragonknights, Nightblade, and Arcanists have been dominating the scene. In my experience at high end play, HybridPlar is tied with StamSorc in 4th. You might be able to steal a win on any of the top 3 classes by catching your opponent off guard, but you’re fighting an uphill battle.

As for group play, Warden does everything, and I mean genuinely EVERYTHING better than Templar, outside of securing kills from afar, and the Purify synergy that shares the massive cooldown of every other synergy in the game. Warden heals better, mitigates damage better, provides better buffs to their team, all while debuffing the enemy team.

You ever play a battleground with a Warden healer on your team running Winter’s Respite and Earthgore? Night and day difference in levels of group play compared to Templar.

Tyrant_Tim · December 2023

Also, this debate has derailed pretty heavily.

I’m in favor of Templar having better access to burst, but not in the form of Single Target.

Galeriano · December 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Adding new support set won't solve templar's issue.

Azureblight, the set I referenced was one that worked primarily with Jabs. Right now there are sets that work best with certain classes, in example; Zen relies on active Damage-Over-Time on targets and Dragonknight has the most of them, EC works with Necro so well because the class has both (frost) Avid Boneyard and (shock) Mystic Siphon all while Necro’s Blastbones rotation plays perfectly into the timer on the set.

I’m not suggesting a new set that every class could use equally, but a new support set that makes Templar specifically a desirable option.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Different classes are being usually taken as support roles because they have something unique in their class kits.

This is an excellent point, I’ve been very vocal about trying to get Major Courage for the class as tank utility, and I think if Sun Shield doesn’t get a rework, it at least needs groupwide Major Courage for 10 seconds on activation for teammates within the radius. This would both solve Templar’s group uniqueness problem, while creating a scenario where Templar tanks are finally desirable.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

I don't think PvP is the RP content type. As for "shining" the problem is You cant have all the classes shining at everything. Where templar shines in PvP is duelling and group play.

This is where you’re absolutely dead wrong, PvP is the only form of endgame content where you CAN roleplay. Build diversity is non-existent in PvE, whereas in PvP you can make unique builds that can occasionally find success.

Also, for Templar to “shine” in dueling and group play, it would need to provide something unique in either of those areas and we’ve already established Templar doesn’t have anything unique.

You might know a few decent duelists that play Templar, I’m one of them, but I can tell you, the last time a Templar won a public dueling tournament on my platform was pre-Update 35. Dragonknights, Nightblade, and Arcanists have been dominating the scene. In my experience at high end play, HybridPlar is tied with StamSorc in 4th. You might be able to steal a win on any of the top 3 classes by catching your opponent off guard, but you’re fighting an uphill battle.

As for group play, Warden does everything, and I mean genuinely EVERYTHING better than Templar, outside of securing kills from afar, and the Purify synergy that shares the massive cooldown of every other synergy in the game. Warden heals better, mitigates damage better, provides better buffs to their team, all while debuffing the enemy team.

You ever play a battleground with a Warden healer on your team running Winter’s Respite and Earthgore? Night and day difference in levels of group play compared to Templar.

Azureblight isn't support set though. Even if it would still work as it used to with templar jabs still these days arcanist could use it to better result. Zen and EC are support sets. Thing is if DK and necro wouldn't provide anything else unique outside of connection to these sets than propably someone else would use them.

I am all for templar getting some unique group feature but major courage on non ultimate ability sounds too strong.

Ok if You're looking at RP from that point of view than yes I can agree that PvP despite having metas offers more build flexibility than PvE but in my opinion it's more due to player's approach rather than game itself. PvE offers plethora of different off meta setups that could still be viable but people are just way more meta focused in that part of the game.

I agree that templar is not top dog class. I've said it few times already. I am just not considering it as the weakest class either.

TechMaybeHic · December 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Adding new support set won't solve templar's issue.

Azureblight, the set I referenced was one that worked primarily with Jabs. Right now there are sets that work best with certain classes, in example; Zen relies on active Damage-Over-Time on targets and Dragonknight has the most of them, EC works with Necro so well because the class has both (frost) Avid Boneyard and (shock) Mystic Siphon all while Necro’s Blastbones rotation plays perfectly into the timer on the set.

I’m not suggesting a new set that every class could use equally, but a new support set that makes Templar specifically a desirable option.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Different classes are being usually taken as support roles because they have something unique in their class kits.

This is an excellent point, I’ve been very vocal about trying to get Major Courage for the class as tank utility, and I think if Sun Shield doesn’t get a rework, it at least needs groupwide Major Courage for 10 seconds on activation for teammates within the radius. This would both solve Templar’s group uniqueness problem, while creating a scenario where Templar tanks are finally desirable.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

I don't think PvP is the RP content type. As for "shining" the problem is You cant have all the classes shining at everything. Where templar shines in PvP is duelling and group play.

This is where you’re absolutely dead wrong, PvP is the only form of endgame content where you CAN roleplay. Build diversity is non-existent in PvE, whereas in PvP you can make unique builds that can occasionally find success.

Also, for Templar to “shine” in dueling and group play, it would need to provide something unique in either of those areas and we’ve already established Templar doesn’t have anything unique.

You might know a few decent duelists that play Templar, I’m one of them, but I can tell you, the last time a Templar won a public dueling tournament on my platform was pre-Update 35. Dragonknights, Nightblade, and Arcanists have been dominating the scene. In my experience at high end play, HybridPlar is tied with StamSorc in 4th. You might be able to steal a win on any of the top 3 classes by catching your opponent off guard, but you’re fighting an uphill battle.

As for group play, Warden does everything, and I mean genuinely EVERYTHING better than Templar, outside of securing kills from afar, and the Purify synergy that shares the massive cooldown of every other synergy in the game. Warden heals better, mitigates damage better, provides better buffs to their team, all while debuffing the enemy team.

You ever play a battleground with a Warden healer on your team running Winter’s Respite and Earthgore? Night and day difference in levels of group play compared to Templar.

Azureblight isn't support set though. Even if it would still work as it used to with templar jabs still these days arcanist could use it to better result. Zen and EC are support sets. Thing is if DK and necro wouldn't provide anything else unique outside of connection to these sets than propably someone else would use them.

I am all for templar getting some unique group feature but major courage on non ultimate ability sounds too strong.

Ok if You're looking at RP from that point of view than yes I can agree that PvP despite having metas offers more build flexibility than PvE but in my opinion it's more due to player's approach rather than game itself. PvE offers plethora of different off meta setups that could still be viable but people are just way more meta focused in that part of the game.

I agree that templar is not top dog class. I've said it few times already. I am just not considering it as the weakest class either.

Whats weaker? Necro? Guess sorc could be from a purest sense; but I know for pvp Group
Action, we just cant have too many negates.

Galeriano · December 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Adding new support set won't solve templar's issue.

Azureblight, the set I referenced was one that worked primarily with Jabs. Right now there are sets that work best with certain classes, in example; Zen relies on active Damage-Over-Time on targets and Dragonknight has the most of them, EC works with Necro so well because the class has both (frost) Avid Boneyard and (shock) Mystic Siphon all while Necro’s Blastbones rotation plays perfectly into the timer on the set.

I’m not suggesting a new set that every class could use equally, but a new support set that makes Templar specifically a desirable option.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Different classes are being usually taken as support roles because they have something unique in their class kits.

This is an excellent point, I’ve been very vocal about trying to get Major Courage for the class as tank utility, and I think if Sun Shield doesn’t get a rework, it at least needs groupwide Major Courage for 10 seconds on activation for teammates within the radius. This would both solve Templar’s group uniqueness problem, while creating a scenario where Templar tanks are finally desirable.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

I don't think PvP is the RP content type. As for "shining" the problem is You cant have all the classes shining at everything. Where templar shines in PvP is duelling and group play.

This is where you’re absolutely dead wrong, PvP is the only form of endgame content where you CAN roleplay. Build diversity is non-existent in PvE, whereas in PvP you can make unique builds that can occasionally find success.

Also, for Templar to “shine” in dueling and group play, it would need to provide something unique in either of those areas and we’ve already established Templar doesn’t have anything unique.

You might know a few decent duelists that play Templar, I’m one of them, but I can tell you, the last time a Templar won a public dueling tournament on my platform was pre-Update 35. Dragonknights, Nightblade, and Arcanists have been dominating the scene. In my experience at high end play, HybridPlar is tied with StamSorc in 4th. You might be able to steal a win on any of the top 3 classes by catching your opponent off guard, but you’re fighting an uphill battle.

As for group play, Warden does everything, and I mean genuinely EVERYTHING better than Templar, outside of securing kills from afar, and the Purify synergy that shares the massive cooldown of every other synergy in the game. Warden heals better, mitigates damage better, provides better buffs to their team, all while debuffing the enemy team.

You ever play a battleground with a Warden healer on your team running Winter’s Respite and Earthgore? Night and day difference in levels of group play compared to Templar.

Azureblight isn't support set though. Even if it would still work as it used to with templar jabs still these days arcanist could use it to better result. Zen and EC are support sets. Thing is if DK and necro wouldn't provide anything else unique outside of connection to these sets than propably someone else would use them.

I am all for templar getting some unique group feature but major courage on non ultimate ability sounds too strong.

Ok if You're looking at RP from that point of view than yes I can agree that PvP despite having metas offers more build flexibility than PvE but in my opinion it's more due to player's approach rather than game itself. PvE offers plethora of different off meta setups that could still be viable but people are just way more meta focused in that part of the game.

I agree that templar is not top dog class. I've said it few times already. I am just not considering it as the weakest class either.

Whats weaker? Necro? Guess sorc could be from a purest sense; but I know for pvp Group
Action, we just cant have too many negates.

Depends what type of the gameplay we are talking specifically.

Tyrant_Tim · December 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Adding new support set won't solve templar's issue.

Azureblight, the set I referenced was one that worked primarily with Jabs. Right now there are sets that work best with certain classes, in example; Zen relies on active Damage-Over-Time on targets and Dragonknight has the most of them, EC works with Necro so well because the class has both (frost) Avid Boneyard and (shock) Mystic Siphon all while Necro’s Blastbones rotation plays perfectly into the timer on the set.

I’m not suggesting a new set that every class could use equally, but a new support set that makes Templar specifically a desirable option.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Different classes are being usually taken as support roles because they have something unique in their class kits.

This is an excellent point, I’ve been very vocal about trying to get Major Courage for the class as tank utility, and I think if Sun Shield doesn’t get a rework, it at least needs groupwide Major Courage for 10 seconds on activation for teammates within the radius. This would both solve Templar’s group uniqueness problem, while creating a scenario where Templar tanks are finally desirable.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

I don't think PvP is the RP content type. As for "shining" the problem is You cant have all the classes shining at everything. Where templar shines in PvP is duelling and group play.

This is where you’re absolutely dead wrong, PvP is the only form of endgame content where you CAN roleplay. Build diversity is non-existent in PvE, whereas in PvP you can make unique builds that can occasionally find success.

Also, for Templar to “shine” in dueling and group play, it would need to provide something unique in either of those areas and we’ve already established Templar doesn’t have anything unique.

You might know a few decent duelists that play Templar, I’m one of them, but I can tell you, the last time a Templar won a public dueling tournament on my platform was pre-Update 35. Dragonknights, Nightblade, and Arcanists have been dominating the scene. In my experience at high end play, HybridPlar is tied with StamSorc in 4th. You might be able to steal a win on any of the top 3 classes by catching your opponent off guard, but you’re fighting an uphill battle.

As for group play, Warden does everything, and I mean genuinely EVERYTHING better than Templar, outside of securing kills from afar, and the Purify synergy that shares the massive cooldown of every other synergy in the game. Warden heals better, mitigates damage better, provides better buffs to their team, all while debuffing the enemy team.

You ever play a battleground with a Warden healer on your team running Winter’s Respite and Earthgore? Night and day difference in levels of group play compared to Templar.

I am all for templar getting some unique group feature but major courage on non ultimate ability sounds too strong..

I agree that templar is not top dog class. I've said it few times already. I am just not considering it as the weakest class either.

How is it that Major Courage attached to a useless ward that caps it’s power at 6 nearby enemies would be broken yet Nightblade has the inverse of the buff in Major Cowardice with a similar radius on an uncapped hard CC.

If it’s okay for one, it should be okay for the other?

Right? Unless you believe it’s okay for a class that relies on it’s weapon and spell damage for both it’s offense and it’s defense to have them stripped away without a means of getting them back in class?

Galeriano · December 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Adding new support set won't solve templar's issue.

Azureblight, the set I referenced was one that worked primarily with Jabs. Right now there are sets that work best with certain classes, in example; Zen relies on active Damage-Over-Time on targets and Dragonknight has the most of them, EC works with Necro so well because the class has both (frost) Avid Boneyard and (shock) Mystic Siphon all while Necro’s Blastbones rotation plays perfectly into the timer on the set.

I’m not suggesting a new set that every class could use equally, but a new support set that makes Templar specifically a desirable option.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Different classes are being usually taken as support roles because they have something unique in their class kits.

This is an excellent point, I’ve been very vocal about trying to get Major Courage for the class as tank utility, and I think if Sun Shield doesn’t get a rework, it at least needs groupwide Major Courage for 10 seconds on activation for teammates within the radius. This would both solve Templar’s group uniqueness problem, while creating a scenario where Templar tanks are finally desirable.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

I don't think PvP is the RP content type. As for "shining" the problem is You cant have all the classes shining at everything. Where templar shines in PvP is duelling and group play.

This is where you’re absolutely dead wrong, PvP is the only form of endgame content where you CAN roleplay. Build diversity is non-existent in PvE, whereas in PvP you can make unique builds that can occasionally find success.

Also, for Templar to “shine” in dueling and group play, it would need to provide something unique in either of those areas and we’ve already established Templar doesn’t have anything unique.

You might know a few decent duelists that play Templar, I’m one of them, but I can tell you, the last time a Templar won a public dueling tournament on my platform was pre-Update 35. Dragonknights, Nightblade, and Arcanists have been dominating the scene. In my experience at high end play, HybridPlar is tied with StamSorc in 4th. You might be able to steal a win on any of the top 3 classes by catching your opponent off guard, but you’re fighting an uphill battle.

As for group play, Warden does everything, and I mean genuinely EVERYTHING better than Templar, outside of securing kills from afar, and the Purify synergy that shares the massive cooldown of every other synergy in the game. Warden heals better, mitigates damage better, provides better buffs to their team, all while debuffing the enemy team.

You ever play a battleground with a Warden healer on your team running Winter’s Respite and Earthgore? Night and day difference in levels of group play compared to Templar.

I am all for templar getting some unique group feature but major courage on non ultimate ability sounds too strong..

I agree that templar is not top dog class. I've said it few times already. I am just not considering it as the weakest class either.

How is it that Major Courage attached to a useless ward that caps it’s power at 6 nearby enemies would be broken yet Nightblade has the inverse of the buff in Major Cowardice with a similar radius on an uncapped hard CC.

If it’s okay for one, it should be okay for the other?

Right? Unless you believe it’s okay for a class that relies on it’s weapon and spell damage for both it’s offense and it’s defense to have them stripped away without a means of getting them back in class?

Major cowardice is not 1:1 inverse or major courage. Major cowardice does not have percentage buffs to empower it when major courage can be buffed easily by 30-40% through major and minor brutaliry/sorcery and other percentage buffs making it around 600 wep/spell dmg in total while cowardice will be always sitting at 430. Also let's be real, do we really want to say that having wep/spell dmg buff on Yourself is equall to having wep/spell dmg debuff on enemy? I think we both know it isn't.

Tyrant_Tim · December 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Adding new support set won't solve templar's issue.

Azureblight, the set I referenced was one that worked primarily with Jabs. Right now there are sets that work best with certain classes, in example; Zen relies on active Damage-Over-Time on targets and Dragonknight has the most of them, EC works with Necro so well because the class has both (frost) Avid Boneyard and (shock) Mystic Siphon all while Necro’s Blastbones rotation plays perfectly into the timer on the set.

I’m not suggesting a new set that every class could use equally, but a new support set that makes Templar specifically a desirable option.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Different classes are being usually taken as support roles because they have something unique in their class kits.

This is an excellent point, I’ve been very vocal about trying to get Major Courage for the class as tank utility, and I think if Sun Shield doesn’t get a rework, it at least needs groupwide Major Courage for 10 seconds on activation for teammates within the radius. This would both solve Templar’s group uniqueness problem, while creating a scenario where Templar tanks are finally desirable.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

I don't think PvP is the RP content type. As for "shining" the problem is You cant have all the classes shining at everything. Where templar shines in PvP is duelling and group play.

This is where you’re absolutely dead wrong, PvP is the only form of endgame content where you CAN roleplay. Build diversity is non-existent in PvE, whereas in PvP you can make unique builds that can occasionally find success.

Also, for Templar to “shine” in dueling and group play, it would need to provide something unique in either of those areas and we’ve already established Templar doesn’t have anything unique.

You might know a few decent duelists that play Templar, I’m one of them, but I can tell you, the last time a Templar won a public dueling tournament on my platform was pre-Update 35. Dragonknights, Nightblade, and Arcanists have been dominating the scene. In my experience at high end play, HybridPlar is tied with StamSorc in 4th. You might be able to steal a win on any of the top 3 classes by catching your opponent off guard, but you’re fighting an uphill battle.

As for group play, Warden does everything, and I mean genuinely EVERYTHING better than Templar, outside of securing kills from afar, and the Purify synergy that shares the massive cooldown of every other synergy in the game. Warden heals better, mitigates damage better, provides better buffs to their team, all while debuffing the enemy team.

You ever play a battleground with a Warden healer on your team running Winter’s Respite and Earthgore? Night and day difference in levels of group play compared to Templar.

I am all for templar getting some unique group feature but major courage on non ultimate ability sounds too strong..

I agree that templar is not top dog class. I've said it few times already. I am just not considering it as the weakest class either.

How is it that Major Courage attached to a useless ward that caps it’s power at 6 nearby enemies would be broken yet Nightblade has the inverse of the buff in Major Cowardice with a similar radius on an uncapped hard CC.

If it’s okay for one, it should be okay for the other?

Right? Unless you believe it’s okay for a class that relies on it’s weapon and spell damage for both it’s offense and it’s defense to have them stripped away without a means of getting them back in class?

Major cowardice is not 1:1 inverse or major courage. Major cowardice does not have percentage buffs to empower it when major courage can be buffed easily by 30-40% through major and minor brutaliry/sorcery and other percentage buffs making it around 600 wep/spell dmg in total while cowardice will be always sitting at 430. Also let's be real, do we really want to say that having wep/spell dmg buff on Yourself is equall to having wep/spell dmg debuff on enemy? I think we both know it isn't.

First of all, a 20-30% increase of your weapon and spell damage is not a 20-30% increase to your damage. 5% of your w/s damage is akin to adding on an extra 100 damage per second to a DoT.

Anyone who’s been playing PvP for some time will be able to testify that it is much easier to build armor than damage.

But let’s do the math just to check, on average players sit around 4,000 weapon/spell damage pre-buffed unless they are running Nirnhoned.

Without Major Courage:
4,000 x .30 = 1,200 + 4,000 = 5,200

With Major Courage:
4,430 x .30 = 1,329 + 4,430 = 5,759

5,200 / 5,759 = 90.29%

That means, with both Major and Minor Sorcery, the significance of your Major Courage when buffed provides 9.71% of your 5,759 w/s damage.

Let’s be realistic and consider the fact that most Templars build into w/s damage because every skill on our kit relies on them, and give the player a base of 6,000 weapon/spell damage pre-buffs.

Without Major Courage:
6,000 x .30 = 1,800 + 6,000 = 7,800

With Major Courage:
6,430 x .30 = 1,929 + 6,430 = 8,359

7,800 / 8,359 = 93.31%

That is a difference of 6.69% of your Weapon and Spell damage… that’s less than 100 damage to each of your DoTs

430 / 6,430 is 6.68% of your overall weapon/spell damage, not damage, after buffing with both brutality and sorcery would be 6.26%, proving that the further you push your weapon and spell damage, the less impact Major Courage has overall.

Major Cowardice applied to someone without Major Courage sitting at 7,800 w/s damage fully buffed is 5.51% of their w/s damage you’ve just stolen from them…

A less than 1% difference in efficiency between the two does not imbalance them.

Galeriano · December 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Adding new support set won't solve templar's issue.

Azureblight, the set I referenced was one that worked primarily with Jabs. Right now there are sets that work best with certain classes, in example; Zen relies on active Damage-Over-Time on targets and Dragonknight has the most of them, EC works with Necro so well because the class has both (frost) Avid Boneyard and (shock) Mystic Siphon all while Necro’s Blastbones rotation plays perfectly into the timer on the set.

I’m not suggesting a new set that every class could use equally, but a new support set that makes Templar specifically a desirable option.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

Different classes are being usually taken as support roles because they have something unique in their class kits.

This is an excellent point, I’ve been very vocal about trying to get Major Courage for the class as tank utility, and I think if Sun Shield doesn’t get a rework, it at least needs groupwide Major Courage for 10 seconds on activation for teammates within the radius. This would both solve Templar’s group uniqueness problem, while creating a scenario where Templar tanks are finally desirable.

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, Nightblade healers are becoming more and more common as RoJo replacements to Plar because of the built in Ult-Gen and accessibility to both forms of Cowardice when needed.

People blissfully unaware of how great Nightblade healers have become would have no problem running Templar as a healer in trials, it sure fits the class fantasy.

While Templars may not be the worst at anything other than Tanking, they are not the best either which it appears you’ve acknowledged.

In a perfect world, adding a new support set that functions similar to EC, Zen’s, Alkosh, or MK would get Templars at the very least included again as a support damage dealer, similar to how dependent Sorcerer is on the MK/Spaulder slot.

We had Azureblight for a little while but they detached our synergy with the skill and gave it to Arcanist, a complete shock to no one.

Whenever a new class comes out, Templar always gets ripped apart to provide for them… remember Major Mending on our kit and Breath of Life not being dependent on player facing? Do you recall when Templar’s could use pet corpses for Repentance? Haven’t seen that skill since.

Now, for PvP, I’m not making a mistake in asking, “Where do they shine?”…

What is the point of playing a Role-Playing Game you can’t shine in? Perhaps you have a different definition of fun, but to me, it isn’t working toward a goal just to find the goalposts moved out of reach.

I don't think PvP is the RP content type. As for "shining" the problem is You cant have all the classes shining at everything. Where templar shines in PvP is duelling and group play.

This is where you’re absolutely dead wrong, PvP is the only form of endgame content where you CAN roleplay. Build diversity is non-existent in PvE, whereas in PvP you can make unique builds that can occasionally find success.

Also, for Templar to “shine” in dueling and group play, it would need to provide something unique in either of those areas and we’ve already established Templar doesn’t have anything unique.

You might know a few decent duelists that play Templar, I’m one of them, but I can tell you, the last time a Templar won a public dueling tournament on my platform was pre-Update 35. Dragonknights, Nightblade, and Arcanists have been dominating the scene. In my experience at high end play, HybridPlar is tied with StamSorc in 4th. You might be able to steal a win on any of the top 3 classes by catching your opponent off guard, but you’re fighting an uphill battle.

As for group play, Warden does everything, and I mean genuinely EVERYTHING better than Templar, outside of securing kills from afar, and the Purify synergy that shares the massive cooldown of every other synergy in the game. Warden heals better, mitigates damage better, provides better buffs to their team, all while debuffing the enemy team.

You ever play a battleground with a Warden healer on your team running Winter’s Respite and Earthgore? Night and day difference in levels of group play compared to Templar.

I am all for templar getting some unique group feature but major courage on non ultimate ability sounds too strong..

I agree that templar is not top dog class. I've said it few times already. I am just not considering it as the weakest class either.

How is it that Major Courage attached to a useless ward that caps it’s power at 6 nearby enemies would be broken yet Nightblade has the inverse of the buff in Major Cowardice with a similar radius on an uncapped hard CC.

If it’s okay for one, it should be okay for the other?

Right? Unless you believe it’s okay for a class that relies on it’s weapon and spell damage for both it’s offense and it’s defense to have them stripped away without a means of getting them back in class?

Major cowardice is not 1:1 inverse or major courage. Major cowardice does not have percentage buffs to empower it when major courage can be buffed easily by 30-40% through major and minor brutaliry/sorcery and other percentage buffs making it around 600 wep/spell dmg in total while cowardice will be always sitting at 430. Also let's be real, do we really want to say that having wep/spell dmg buff on Yourself is equall to having wep/spell dmg debuff on enemy? I think we both know it isn't.

First of all, a 20-30% increase of your weapon and spell damage is not a 20-30% increase to your damage. I have no idea where you got that extra 10% weapon/spell damage from, as the only direct multipliers to it are from Brutality/Sorcery.

Anyone who’s been playing PvP for some time will be able to testify that it is much easier to build armor than damage.

But let’s do the math just to check, on average players sit around 4,000 weapon/spell damage pre-buffed unless they are running Nirnhoned.

Without Major Courage:
4,000 x .30 = 1,200 + 4,000 = 5,200

With Major Courage:
4,430 x .30 = 1,329 + 4,430 = 5,759

5,200 / 5,759 = 1.1075…

That means, with both Major and Minor Sorcery, the significance of your Major Courage when buffed provides a grand total increase of 1.1% increased efficiency.

Let’s be EXTREMELY generous and give the player a base of 6,000 weapon/spell damage pre-buffs

Without Major Courage:
6,000 x .30 = 1,800 + 6,000 = 7,800

With Major Courage:
6,430 x .30 = 1,929 + 6,430 = 8,359

7,800 / 8,359 = 1.07…

Broken down, you can see that the higher your damage gets, the less percentage skills like Major Courage and Cowardice make up in the grand total, so if I have Balorgh active, with my Berserk glyph, I’ll be sitting around that 6,000 range and if I were to tack on Major Courage I would get…

430 / 6,430 is 14.95% of your overall weapon/spell damage, not damage, and an added 1% to that 14.95% would be 15.95%, neither breaking the game, or even garnering notice whatsoever.

Major Cowardice applied to someone without Major Courage sitting at 7,800 w/s damage fully buffed is 18.13% of their w/s damage you’ve just stolen from them…

Major Courage applied to someone fully buffed by both Major and Minor Brutality is 15.95%.

Now, assuming my math is correct (it is) then it’s safe to assume that Major Cowardice has a larger impact on the overall w/s damage of a player, more than Major Courage ever will.

I dont know where did You got the impression I was saying that weapon/spell dmg buffs are 1:1 dmg buffs. I am fully aware how stats work. Addional up to 10% can be provided from class, medium armor and fighters guild passives this is why i said 30-40% wep/spell dmg because that will be the usual bracket. Templar for example gets 6% wep/spell dmg from balanced warrior passive.

I am not sure how You got Your nubmers. For example 430 is not 14,95% of 6430 but 6,7%. Taking 430 w/s dmg from someone who have 7800 w/s dmg is not 18,13% of w/s dmg Your've stolen from them but 5,5%. Whole math You did seems a bit off.

Tyrant_Tim · December 2023

@Galeriano sorry I was up until 3 in the morning playing Remnant II and wrote that up right before getting off, I forgot to divide those numbers into 100.

14.95 / 100 = 6.68%
15.95 / 100 = 6.26%
18.13 / 100 = 5.51%

Thank you for correcting my previous post. Both buffs have SIGNIFICANTLY less impact on your overall weapon and spell damage.

I’ve gone back and edited.

Also want to add, the goal of adding AoE group Major Courage to Sun Shield would force your average player to sacrifice a skill that actually provides functionality to put on a worthless ability just for that buff, which most players would not do. This would only benefit tanks.

Tyrant_Tim · December 2023

Also, I tried to “re-rail” us back into the topic earlier but I think you missed that.

Out of respect for the OP, I’m not going to engage in further derailing of the thread, if you want to continue talking about the difference between Major Courage and Cowardice and how similar they are, you can message me.