Dear devs: do you realise that your content beta testers are not you average player? I beg you read

Kiyakotari · November 2023

I think that the difficulty level isn't the issue. I think that the 3-death cap kicking people back to the beginning is the issue. Players in MMO's are used to being able to beat their heads against the brick walls of content, but the really low limit on threads/lives on this frustrates a lot of people. It's reminiscent of some arcade style games, which is fine and dandy, but ESO isn't an arcade game and not all of the players played those or enjoyed them. In my opinion, there should be a second "normal" non-leaderboard version of EA that allows the player to just keep going, deaths notwithstanding. It's a simple fix that would alleviate a lot of frustration and still allow people who are score pushing to enjoy the current version of EA.

Elsonso · November 2023

Kiyakotari wrote: »

In my opinion, there should be a second "normal" non-leaderboard version of EA that allows the player to just keep going, deaths notwithstanding. It's a simple fix that would alleviate a lot of frustration and still allow people who are score pushing to enjoy the current version of EA.

I agree with this, in general. It is better than a normal vs veteran mode and a save progress feature. Just allow the players, at the time of the third death, to go into an unlimited death no leader board mode that continues right where they are at.

(Fixed quote)

Caligamy_ESO · November 2023

Hard disagree.

You need to gear yourself for this content and it's not normal PvE builds. Crafted gear is capable of reaching Arc 6.
Companions are not viable and they never have been!
Bring a friend if soloing is too difficult. It is meant to be harder, that is why it has its own separate leaderboard.

It's really as simple as that.

wazzz56 · November 2023

I do not think it is a difficulty issue (and I am far from a PVE elite) ....In my opinion it seems like it is preparedness issue...it is not overland zone content... you cannot take a glass cannon build in there....up your health.....try some heavy armor..pale order may be a good idea for you....many routes could be taken other than " Too hard please nerf"...

Gray_howling_parrot · November 2023

Lags wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Hard disagree with the OP.

Almost all of the content in the game caters to average or newer players without requiring elite fighting skills. And that's ok! While I enjoy end game I like relaxing content as well. Plus, most content geared towards above average players has a version of it which can be enjoyed by average players. This, therefore, is the opposite of the OP's assessment. I will not list everything but here are some examples.

Content with low barrier to entry (can easily solo):
Questing, stories, and overland mobs/areas (the bulk of the game)

Delves

Antiquities

Tales of Tribute

Normal Solo Arenas (needs at least a little skill/experience to complete, though)

Housing

Crafting and Fishing

Thieves Guild Heists and Dark Brotherhood Sacraments, stealing from and murdering NPCs in general

Unlocking Companions and leveling their skills, rapport, and stories

Most event content (Jester's Festival, New Life Festival, etc.)

Content with low barrier to entry (may need a group but everyone can be average in the group):
World Bosses

Incursions (Anchors and such)

Normal dungeons

Normal trials

Normal group arenas

All PvP but especially Cyrodiil (You can wear very basic gear to join a zone group and capture things, help with siege, etc.)

Older vet dungeons

Specialized "group" content like the Crow or Bastion Nymic

Content requiring "better than average" skills for all player participants to consistently succeed:
Vet DLC Dungeons

Vet Trials

Vet Group Arenas and Solo Arenas

... and now Endless Archive, which, let's all remember, replaced a vet DLC dungeon release, and so logically should fall into this category

Some aspects of PvP

Then there is content that can be leveraged regardless of which category you are in.... like seeking achievements or enjoying different classes, being a vampire or werewolf, unlocking the Psjiic Order skills, etc. Yes, some of those vampire skills may be leveraged by score pushers but you can bop around doing the story content as a vampire, too!

If you combine the first two lists together it's blatantly obvious that the game is not catered towards above average players in any way. And given where the majority of the development focus is, I continue to be glad that ESO still does provide "end game" content. I was pleasantly surprised with the Endless Archive, which I expected to be more boring because I thought it might be geared towards players who really need Companions. Not that there is anything wrong with this, but personally wouldn't present a challenge for me or hold my interest for very long as "endless" content.

Well said.

I dont know where these complaints are coming from lately. Is it endless archive? I dont know, but its unreal to me. 95% of this game is casual friendly. Especially now with arcanist and oakensoul. I saw some guy complaining the other day that the game was hard and he didnt want to use beam on his arcanist. Its like, so you want the game to be completely brainless and dont want to use the tools they give you that will help you get through harder stuff faster? I dont get it.

Some people want incentive to get better, some people want to be challenged. Some people want to be able to say, wow maybe one day ill be able to do that. This is the problem with aiming an mmo at mostly solo casual players in a revolving door. You will never satisfy them, and the players that actually make an mmo what it is, players who are dedicated and put in time to become pillars of the community in one way or another, and do things for the community, and bring the community together, or players that want to stay for a long time, will cease to exist. As we have seen happen.

There is no big mmo that i know of where you can do everything simply. Where everything is super easy and there is no challenge. I have played retail/classic wow, osrs, albion, bdo, gw2, and more. I have never seen it. It would not be healthy for an mmo to operate like that, and i think the more solo/casual friendly eso becomes the more damage it does the community and game. Eso has always been a very solo/casual/beginner friendly mmo, but over the last few years they have just taken a hard turn in that direction.

and ive said it a million times but ill say it again here, there is a lack of incentive and a lack of reward at every level of the game that causes people to think this way. When the game is rewarding, and you incentivize people to improve, to want to get to the next step to get things and be rewarded, then things are better for everyone. There should be good rewards for fishing, questing, exploring, and there should be good rewards for harder things like godslayer, emperor, flawless conqueror, vet dlc dungeon achievements, etc. Rewards suck all around, especially at the easier end, and if they changed that for everyone things would only improve. But they refuse.

Agreed. The problem nowadays in ESO is that there is a large portion of the player base that is:
- Either completely unwilling to try any challenging content and complains about it
- Is completely unwilling to try to improve their build or their skill in any way
- Wants things handed to them

EVERY MMO has challenging content in it and ESO has the smallest % of challenging content out of pretty much any MMO I’ve tried thus far (WOW, FF14, OSRS, destiny 2 if you count that, New World).

Endless archive is MEANT to be challenging. You are MEANT to learn how to improve and learn mechanics for the boss fights. So many people give it one go, don’t do well and then come here and complain. If you want to get farther, simply look up ways to improve and build for the content. That’s the point.

This game is not supposed to be 100% available for a light attacking Stamblade with a bow. That’s not how it works. Can you complete a large bit of content JUST doing that (which is insane)? YES. The first arc of this which is what you need for the daily is meant to be available to EVERYONE and is “turn your brain off” easy like the rest of the game. This piece of content would die off SO FAST if it was as easy as people on here wanted it to be.

IMPROVE yourself:
- Try new builds
- Learn mechanics
- Change your mentality

Endless archive is an AMAZING piece of content and is absolutely incredible. There are improvements needed but decreasing difficulty is not one of them plain and simple.

CameraBeardThePirate · November 2023

One of the big issues with the ease of overland/quest content is that the game in no way prepares players for the harder content in this game. You see it all the time in dungeons, battlegrounds, and even in PUGs fighting world bosses: players come in with mediocre builds and mediocre rotations because that's all they've needed for quests.

If overland was even slightly harder, players would be forced to improve - the floor would be raised and yes, there would be a slight curve, but it would lessen the gap between the upper and lower ends.

Soarora · November 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

This is not the first time I have seen a complaint on the forums that a 1-shot has occurred in EA. The thing is, avoiding 1-shots isn't an "elite"-only thing.

It is an "expert player" thing.

Well... they could be a "lucky player". That is better than an expert, but not as reliable.

Soarora wrote: »

I think this kind of response isn't as much indictive of EA being too hard but a continuation of the conversation that ZOS simply does not teach [players] how to deal with mechanics until they get thrown into vet dungeons, where then people get mad about the lack of skill

I was hoping Endless Archive was going to be a bridge spanning the gap between the different skill levels of players that could be used to grow players into the harder content. Endless Archive does not feel like it will fill that role.

Ph1p wrote: »

Some bosses are significantly stronger than the others in the same selection pool, especially if you don't know their mechanics because you don't do trials or don't have a specific DLC.

People have compared arc 1 to normal dungeons, but dungeon enemies have less health and you fight them as a group of four. In EA, you suddenly need to be a mix of tank, healer, and DD, which can be an entirely new experience.

There are one-shots even in early EA, telegraphed as heavy attacks. In most lower difficulty content, this can be blocked and the tutorial even emphasizes how it staggers enemies. In EA, you often really need to dodge at the right moment.

If you are new to this kind of mechanics, you need some practice to get the timing right, e.g., roll-dodge as Tho'at jumps up for the heavy attack. But unlike in other content, you don't get unlimited tries to practice. I'm not advocating for more threads, but I'm sure getting reset to the start creates frustration (and forum complaints).

My personal feeling is that Arc 1 bosses should be limited to the pool of base game normal dungeon bosses, or general equivalent. Bosses with one-shot attacks or special knowledge mechanics should be excluded from Arc 1, or those attacks and mechanics should not appear until later Arcs.

The special mechanics practice problem is a real problem, since the bosses are random. Not only is there no opportunity to practice in the run, the next few runs might not have that boss. It could be a while before they get another chance to practice against it. Without studying a guide, like what Xynode puts out, someone with more knowledge to guide them, or training against the boss in the dungeon or trial they come from, it is going to be harder to get face time with the boss to learn special mechanics.

Of course, this opens up a new cottage industry where expert players do carry runs, or training runs, through Endless Archive. Duo mode ends up not just playing with another player, but playing with a player more familiar with the bosses.

1. Blocking heavy attacks are taught in the game’s tutorial. It’s just a matter of people never being taught to fear heavy attacks. It does not take an expert to block when an enemy visually winds up to do a heavy attack.
2. In that case, maybe the 1-shots in arc 1 should be capped at almost 1-shots so people may hopefully learn.
3. I do agree trial bosses and maybe dlc dungeon bosses shouldn’t be added until arc 2.

CameraBeardThePirate · November 2023

Soarora wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

This is not the first time I have seen a complaint on the forums that a 1-shot has occurred in EA. The thing is, avoiding 1-shots isn't an "elite"-only thing.

It is an "expert player" thing.

Well... they could be a "lucky player". That is better than an expert, but not as reliable.

Soarora wrote: »

I think this kind of response isn't as much indictive of EA being too hard but a continuation of the conversation that ZOS simply does not teach [players] how to deal with mechanics until they get thrown into vet dungeons, where then people get mad about the lack of skill

I was hoping Endless Archive was going to be a bridge spanning the gap between the different skill levels of players that could be used to grow players into the harder content. Endless Archive does not feel like it will fill that role.

Ph1p wrote: »

Some bosses are significantly stronger than the others in the same selection pool, especially if you don't know their mechanics because you don't do trials or don't have a specific DLC.

People have compared arc 1 to normal dungeons, but dungeon enemies have less health and you fight them as a group of four. In EA, you suddenly need to be a mix of tank, healer, and DD, which can be an entirely new experience.

There are one-shots even in early EA, telegraphed as heavy attacks. In most lower difficulty content, this can be blocked and the tutorial even emphasizes how it staggers enemies. In EA, you often really need to dodge at the right moment.

If you are new to this kind of mechanics, you need some practice to get the timing right, e.g., roll-dodge as Tho'at jumps up for the heavy attack. But unlike in other content, you don't get unlimited tries to practice. I'm not advocating for more threads, but I'm sure getting reset to the start creates frustration (and forum complaints).

My personal feeling is that Arc 1 bosses should be limited to the pool of base game normal dungeon bosses, or general equivalent. Bosses with one-shot attacks or special knowledge mechanics should be excluded from Arc 1, or those attacks and mechanics should not appear until later Arcs.

The special mechanics practice problem is a real problem, since the bosses are random. Not only is there no opportunity to practice in the run, the next few runs might not have that boss. It could be a while before they get another chance to practice against it. Without studying a guide, like what Xynode puts out, someone with more knowledge to guide them, or training against the boss in the dungeon or trial they come from, it is going to be harder to get face time with the boss to learn special mechanics.

Of course, this opens up a new cottage industry where expert players do carry runs, or training runs, through Endless Archive. Duo mode ends up not just playing with another player, but playing with a player more familiar with the bosses.

1. Blocking heavy attacks are taught in the game’s tutorial. It’s just a matter of people never being taught to fear heavy attacks. It does not take an expert to block when an enemy visually winds up to do a heavy attack.
2. In that case, maybe the 1-shots in arc 1 should be capped at almost 1-shots so people may hopefully learn.
3. I do agree trial bosses and maybe dlc dungeon bosses shouldn’t be added until arc 2.

THIS.

People don't learn to avoid mechanics because Overland is faceroll easy.

Kendaric · November 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

One of the big issues with the ease of overland/quest content is that the game in no way prepares players for the harder content in this game. You see it all the time in dungeons, battlegrounds, and even in PUGs fighting world bosses: players come in with mediocre builds and mediocre rotations because that's all they've needed for quests.

If overland was even slightly harder, players would be forced to improve - the floor would be raised and yes, there would be a slight curve, but it would lessen the gap between the upper and lower ends.

And a lot of people would leave the game. You may not mind that, but I'm pretty sure ZOS does.

A lot of the complaints about EA's difficulty wouldn't have appeared, if ZOS would have marketed it differently. They should have been clear about what EA is and the intended audience for it. And not just in a TWITCH stream...

Had they done that, I'd have known right from the start that it's no content for me and would have spared me (and I guess others as well) a lot of frustration.

But, what's done is done and not worth to argue about.
I'm aware of what it is now and will stay away from it and stick to overland content which I consider to be fun and can manage.

Braffin · November 2023

Soarora wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

This is not the first time I have seen a complaint on the forums that a 1-shot has occurred in EA. The thing is, avoiding 1-shots isn't an "elite"-only thing.

It is an "expert player" thing.

Well... they could be a "lucky player". That is better than an expert, but not as reliable.

Soarora wrote: »

I think this kind of response isn't as much indictive of EA being too hard but a continuation of the conversation that ZOS simply does not teach [players] how to deal with mechanics until they get thrown into vet dungeons, where then people get mad about the lack of skill

I was hoping Endless Archive was going to be a bridge spanning the gap between the different skill levels of players that could be used to grow players into the harder content. Endless Archive does not feel like it will fill that role.

Ph1p wrote: »

Some bosses are significantly stronger than the others in the same selection pool, especially if you don't know their mechanics because you don't do trials or don't have a specific DLC.

People have compared arc 1 to normal dungeons, but dungeon enemies have less health and you fight them as a group of four. In EA, you suddenly need to be a mix of tank, healer, and DD, which can be an entirely new experience.

There are one-shots even in early EA, telegraphed as heavy attacks. In most lower difficulty content, this can be blocked and the tutorial even emphasizes how it staggers enemies. In EA, you often really need to dodge at the right moment.

If you are new to this kind of mechanics, you need some practice to get the timing right, e.g., roll-dodge as Tho'at jumps up for the heavy attack. But unlike in other content, you don't get unlimited tries to practice. I'm not advocating for more threads, but I'm sure getting reset to the start creates frustration (and forum complaints).

My personal feeling is that Arc 1 bosses should be limited to the pool of base game normal dungeon bosses, or general equivalent. Bosses with one-shot attacks or special knowledge mechanics should be excluded from Arc 1, or those attacks and mechanics should not appear until later Arcs.

The special mechanics practice problem is a real problem, since the bosses are random. Not only is there no opportunity to practice in the run, the next few runs might not have that boss. It could be a while before they get another chance to practice against it. Without studying a guide, like what Xynode puts out, someone with more knowledge to guide them, or training against the boss in the dungeon or trial they come from, it is going to be harder to get face time with the boss to learn special mechanics.

Of course, this opens up a new cottage industry where expert players do carry runs, or training runs, through Endless Archive. Duo mode ends up not just playing with another player, but playing with a player more familiar with the bosses.

1. Blocking heavy attacks are taught in the game’s tutorial. It’s just a matter of people never being taught to fear heavy attacks. It does not take an expert to block when an enemy visually winds up to do a heavy attack.
2. In that case, maybe the 1-shots in arc 1 should be capped at almost 1-shots so people may hopefully learn.
3. I do agree trial bosses and maybe dlc dungeon bosses shouldn’t be added until arc 2.

While I completely agree with your first two points, I disagree regarding the last.

For players, which have a hard time completing Arc 1 at present, it's much more manageable to learn the mechanics of said bosses in the first Arc. They would literally hit the wall if they encounter them in Arc 2, as everything hits a bit harder there.

There are more subtle adjustments possible to help with said bosses: Let Malkhest give more advise during the fight for example, reduce the size of some of the bosses bigger AoEs, that sort of things.

Another good addition would be a "training" Arc, where people could choose, which boss they want to train on without restricted lives. Those mode wouldn't count for the daily of course and you wouldn't earn currency to prevent abuse.

Deleting bosses from Arc 1 would hurt those players the most, which are willing to improve, but aren't able to go further than Arc 1 yet.

Soarora · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

This is not the first time I have seen a complaint on the forums that a 1-shot has occurred in EA. The thing is, avoiding 1-shots isn't an "elite"-only thing.

It is an "expert player" thing.

Well... they could be a "lucky player". That is better than an expert, but not as reliable.

Soarora wrote: »

I think this kind of response isn't as much indictive of EA being too hard but a continuation of the conversation that ZOS simply does not teach [players] how to deal with mechanics until they get thrown into vet dungeons, where then people get mad about the lack of skill

I was hoping Endless Archive was going to be a bridge spanning the gap between the different skill levels of players that could be used to grow players into the harder content. Endless Archive does not feel like it will fill that role.

Ph1p wrote: »

Some bosses are significantly stronger than the others in the same selection pool, especially if you don't know their mechanics because you don't do trials or don't have a specific DLC.

People have compared arc 1 to normal dungeons, but dungeon enemies have less health and you fight them as a group of four. In EA, you suddenly need to be a mix of tank, healer, and DD, which can be an entirely new experience.

There are one-shots even in early EA, telegraphed as heavy attacks. In most lower difficulty content, this can be blocked and the tutorial even emphasizes how it staggers enemies. In EA, you often really need to dodge at the right moment.

If you are new to this kind of mechanics, you need some practice to get the timing right, e.g., roll-dodge as Tho'at jumps up for the heavy attack. But unlike in other content, you don't get unlimited tries to practice. I'm not advocating for more threads, but I'm sure getting reset to the start creates frustration (and forum complaints).

My personal feeling is that Arc 1 bosses should be limited to the pool of base game normal dungeon bosses, or general equivalent. Bosses with one-shot attacks or special knowledge mechanics should be excluded from Arc 1, or those attacks and mechanics should not appear until later Arcs.

The special mechanics practice problem is a real problem, since the bosses are random. Not only is there no opportunity to practice in the run, the next few runs might not have that boss. It could be a while before they get another chance to practice against it. Without studying a guide, like what Xynode puts out, someone with more knowledge to guide them, or training against the boss in the dungeon or trial they come from, it is going to be harder to get face time with the boss to learn special mechanics.

Of course, this opens up a new cottage industry where expert players do carry runs, or training runs, through Endless Archive. Duo mode ends up not just playing with another player, but playing with a player more familiar with the bosses.

1. Blocking heavy attacks are taught in the game’s tutorial. It’s just a matter of people never being taught to fear heavy attacks. It does not take an expert to block when an enemy visually winds up to do a heavy attack.
2. In that case, maybe the 1-shots in arc 1 should be capped at almost 1-shots so people may hopefully learn.
3. I do agree trial bosses and maybe dlc dungeon bosses shouldn’t be added until arc 2.

While I completely agree with your first two points, I disagree regarding the last.

For players, which have a hard time completing Arc 1 at present, it's much more manageable to learn the mechanics of said bosses in the first Arc. They would literally hit the wall if they encounter them in Arc 2, as everything hits a bit harder there.

There are more subtle adjustments possible to help with said bosses: Let Malkhest give more advise during the fight for example, reduce the size of some of the bosses bigger AoEs, that sort of things.

Another good addition would be a "training" Arc, where people could choose, which boss they want to train on without restricted lives. Those mode wouldn't count for the daily of course and you wouldn't earn currency to prevent abuse.

Deleting bosses from Arc 1 would hurt those players the most, which are willing to improve, but aren't able to go further than Arc 1 yet.

My suggestion of deleting bosses is for those who intend to only do Arc 1, though I understand your point. Something should really be done about the ability to learn mechanics. Allowing infinite thread runs, a training room, an advanced combat tutorial, something. I haven’t had any issue myself figuring out mechanics that are new for the archive based on the fundamentals I know (block, bash, kill adds, kiting, etc.) so a better combat tutorial will probably help. But I can’t speak on most mechanics because I know them already.

Treeshka · November 2023

I am not sure what to suggest outside of balancing bosses that appears on Arc one but maybe they can reduce the health of those bosses on Arc one. They have almost a million health.

If i remember right there is no boss with more than a million health in veteran Maelstrom Arena.

kevkj · November 2023

For better or for worse, ZOS has created a game where there is no need to engage with even the most basic combat mechanics in all of the overland and fostered a community who enjoys it that way. On the other hand, the Endless Archive seems to be an explicitly combat oriented piece of content (with minimal story/lore) where 5-10 minutes in you will get a very basic combat check in the form of the first cycle boss. There's going to be friction for obvious reasons. People who reject combat can still have overland but will not be able to meaningfully participate in Endless Archive until they decide to change their approach and that's ok. Overland does nothing to teach/push the combat of the game and maybe that's ok too.

However for people who are able to complete Arc 1 but struggle immediately after in Arcs 2 or 3, I do hope an easier/unlimited thread no leaderboard version is made. Many have argued that these people should just rerun Arc 1 endlessly but doing this will not really allow them to unlock the fun verses like Bestial Transformation and I want as many people as possible to be able to use that one : D

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

Treeshka wrote: »

I am not sure what to suggest outside of balancing bosses that appears on Arc one but maybe they can reduce the health of those bosses on Arc one. They have almost a million health.

If i remember right there is no boss with more than a million health in veteran Maelstrom Arena.

with offense verses though, most arc 1 bosses tend to melt

ive actually been able to basically 1 shot the arc 1 cycle 1 boss with pustulent globs before (the boss has about 750k hp and i had an 827k crit with the globs on a dps toon)

kevkj wrote: »

For better or for worse, ZOS has created a game where there is no need to engage with even the most basic combat mechanics in all of the overland and fostered a community who enjoys it that way. On the other hand, the Endless Archive seems to be an explicitly combat oriented piece of content (with minimal story/lore) where 5-10 minutes in you will get a very basic combat check in the form of the first cycle boss. There's going to be friction for obvious reasons. People who reject combat can still have overland but will not be able to meaningfully participate in Endless Archive until they decide to change their approach and that's ok. Overland does nothing to teach/push the combat of the game and maybe that's ok too.

after enough experiences running in the arena, i think the difficulty of arc 1 is about on par with normal vateshran arena, which due to the mechanics is not 100% trivial either if you are running a low dps build

CGPsaint · November 2023

Ingenon wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

The difficulty of arc 1 has been downgraded during the PTS, and for simple gear collection, farm arc 1 is more than enough. You can easily pass arc 1 with any mainstream build, like oakensorc and hold left click. You don't need to be an "above average" player to do that

I have tried several oakensoul builds (sorcerer, templar, warden), and my experience while completing Arc 1 is that the Oakensoul one bar Sorcerer is the weakest choice. The Arc 1 Cycle 4 boss killed my sorcerer pets multiple times. The Arc 1 Tho’ at Replicanum killed my sorcerer pets multiple times.

Please do not tell folks to use Oakensoul one bar Sorcerer in Endless Archives. Unless they like having to resummon their pets multiple times, even in Arc 1. However, the Oakensoul one bar Templar does ok.

I'd like to point out that you don't have to run an Oakensoul Sorcerer as a pet build. Pets clearly won't work in EA, so just don't use them. My Sorc is running Unstable Wall, Elemental Susceptibility, Crystal Shards, Critical Surge, Hardened Ward, and Greater Storm Atronach. I run CP in the blue tree to buff my heavy attack/crit damage & heal, and in the red tree you will find 2 slottables that increase the strength of your shield and reduce cost. Debuff, drop wall, heavy attack weave Crystal Frags. Keep your crit surge up at all times and block cast Hardened Ward to deal with heavy attacks. My Sorc is currently in the top 20 solo, so it can be done.

Firstmep wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

3.) The Visions/Verses are definitely going to be the usual RNG that we've come to expect from ESO, and will make or break your run.

Vision/Verse rng is pretty brutal. Focused Efforts blows everything out of the water by a mile.
Dont know who came up with the numbers but 3% vs 500% damage increase has to be an oversight.

It's really important to purchase the permanent upgrades as soon as possible, but even then RNG will dictate how successful your run is going to be. I had a run last night where I kept getting martial knowledge and stamina buffs. I'm on a MagSorc, so they were pretty much useless. I still put up my best run, but that was down to good boss RNG and starting to learn the ins and outs of EA. If I'd gotten better Visions, I could have easily gone another Arc.

Ingenon · November 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

I'd like to point out that you don't have to run an Oakensoul Sorcerer as a pet build. Pets clearly won't work in EA, so just don't use them. My Sorc is running Unstable Wall, Elemental Susceptibility, Crystal Shards, Critical Surge, Hardened Ward, and Greater Storm Atronach. I run CP in the blue tree to buff my heavy attack/crit damage & heal, and in the red tree you will find 2 slottables that increase the strength of your shield and reduce cost. Debuff, drop wall, heavy attack weave Crystal Frags. Keep your crit surge up at all times and block cast Hardened Ward to deal with heavy attacks. My Sorc is currently in the top 20 solo, so it can be done.

It's really important to purchase the permanent upgrades as soon as possible, but even then RNG will dictate how successful your run is going to be. I had a run last night where I kept getting martial knowledge and stamina buffs. I'm on a MagSorc, so they were pretty much useless. I still put up my best run, but that was down to good boss RNG and starting to learn the ins and outs of EA. If I'd gotten better Visions, I could have easily gone another Arc.

Thanks for the suggestions for an Endless Archive build for Oakensoul Sorcerer!

caperon · November 2023

Act 1 is so hard that can be completed with a naked magicka sorcerer using an alkosh destro staff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPPcSqzc8Rc

It is not that betatesters are gifted. It's that many players don't want to engage with the game at all or learn anything, so anything harder than the tutorial overwhelms them.

Elsonso · November 2023

caperon wrote: »

Act 1 is so hard that can be completed with a naked magicka sorcerer using an alkosh destro staff.

It is not that betatesters are gifted. It's that many players don't want to engage with the game at all or learn anything, so anything harder than the tutorial overwhelms them.

That group is not interested in Endless Archive, anyway. No amount of beta testing feedback is going to change that.

Players who don't want to engage with the content are not going to build skills and knowledge more than they need to play what they want to engage with. Since Endless Archive is more about player skill and knowledge of boss mechanics, and less about builds and gear, not having those things is a formidable barrier.

caperon · November 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Act 1 is so hard that can be completed with a naked magicka sorcerer using an alkosh destro staff.

It is not that betatesters are gifted. It's that many players don't want to engage with the game at all or learn anything, so anything harder than the tutorial overwhelms them.

That group is not interested in Endless Archive, anyway. No amount of beta testing feedback is going to change that.

Players who don't want to engage with the content are not going to build skills and knowledge more than they need to play what they want to engage with. Since Endless Archive is more about player skill and knowledge of boss mechanics, and less about builds and gear, not having those things is a formidable barrier.

These players are very vocal on the forums this days asking for nerfs to EA. One player complained because Yolnakrin was pushing him/her outside the platform with the heavy attack you need to block and has a very noticeable cue of about 3 seconds. Blocking is one of the most basic parts of combat and some players seems that refuse to engage in it, stil they are vocal in the forums and ask for nerf. Everything is too punishing for these players, but instead of do content they are willing to learn to do, they want the small part of content that doesn't cater specifically to them be nerfed because it is too hard when it is is, in fact, very easy if you do what you learn in the tutorial (and forget later because most of the content is an insult of how easy it is).

Sirona_Starr · November 2023

peacenote wrote: »

Hard disagree with the OP.

Almost all of the content in the game caters to average or newer players without requiring elite fighting skills. And that's ok! While I enjoy end game I like relaxing content as well. Plus, most content geared towards above average players has a version of it which can be enjoyed by average players. This, therefore, is the opposite of the OP's assessment. I will not list everything but here are some examples.

Content with low barrier to entry (can easily solo):
Questing, stories, and overland mobs/areas (the bulk of the game)

Delves

Antiquities

Tales of Tribute

Normal Solo Arenas (needs at least a little skill/experience to complete, though)

Housing

Crafting and Fishing

Thieves Guild Heists and Dark Brotherhood Sacraments, stealing from and murdering NPCs in general

Unlocking Companions and leveling their skills, rapport, and stories

Most event content (Jester's Festival, New Life Festival, etc.)

Content with low barrier to entry (may need a group but everyone can be average in the group):
World Bosses

Incursions (Anchors and such)

Normal dungeons

Normal trials

Normal group arenas

All PvP but especially Cyrodiil (You can wear very basic gear to join a zone group and capture things, help with siege, etc.)

Older vet dungeons

Specialized "group" content like the Crow or Bastion Nymic

Content requiring "better than average" skills for all player participants to consistently succeed:
Vet DLC Dungeons

Vet Trials

Vet Group Arenas and Solo Arenas

... and now Endless Archive, which, let's all remember, replaced a vet DLC dungeon release, and so logically should fall into this category

Some aspects of PvP

Then there is content that can be leveraged regardless of which category you are in.... like seeking achievements or enjoying different classes, being a vampire or werewolf, unlocking the Psjiic Order skills, etc. Yes, some of those vampire skills may be leveraged by score pushers but you can bop around doing the story content as a vampire, too!

If you combine the first two lists together it's blatantly obvious that the game is not catered towards above average players in any way. And given where the majority of the development focus is, I continue to be glad that ESO still does provide "end game" content. I was pleasantly surprised with the Endless Archive, which I expected to be more boring because I thought it might be geared towards players who really need Companions. Not that there is anything wrong with this, but personally wouldn't present a challenge for me or hold my interest for very long as "endless" content.

Actually the archive replaced a mini zone.

Sirona_Starr · November 2023

The easy, simple solution would be to implement a normal mode for the less skilled and a vet mode for the git gud crowd, just like all the other arenas, dungeons and such.

Also get rid of the threads, and allow saves for those who wish to do so.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · November 2023

I am still waiting for an actual endless dungeon, one that is not an Arena but an actual overland level dungeon that has actual variation and is not just Apocrypha where I can relax and one shot overland mobs without end.

It is really sad that we lost two dungeons and a DLC Zone in favor of this Apocrypha only themed Elite Player Arena (not endless dungeon) which really should of just been part of the Zone DLC like Vateshran Arena and Maelstrom Arena were.

Androrix · November 2023

Interesting post.

Like any game, I want content that will challenge me, but that with effort and the investment of time I can ultimately achieve. ESO seems to have evolved into either ridiculously hard endgame content that I am effecttivley locked out of, or trivial content that anyone's character can steamroll.

To be honest, most of the game (especially all overland content) feels like a visual novel to me now. I don't get any sense of achievement doing the new chapters. They just feel like something to trudge through, so I stopped buying at Blackwood.

I am not really sure whether that means I agree or disagree with the OP.

caperon · November 2023

Androrix wrote: »

Interesting post.

Like any game, I want content that will challenge me, but that with effort and the investment of time I can ultimately achieve. ESO seems to have evolved into either ridiculously hard endgame content that I am effecttivley locked out of, or trivial content that anyone's character can steamroll.

To be honest, most of the game (especially all overland content) feels like a visual novel to me now. I don't get any sense of achievement doing the new chapters. They just feel like something to trudge through, so I stopped buying at Blackwood.

I am not really sure whether that means I agree or disagree with the OP.

Actually ESO has an ok difficulty curve if you learn your class, try to gear yourself properly (I use 2 crafted sets in archive and i reach act 9 solo), get CP (the 1st 500-1000 is quite fast, at 1550 you are capped in combat bonus) and play the content:

Solo
normal maelstrom arena > ARC 1 archive > normal vatesran > ARC 2 archive > vet maelstrom > ARC 3 archive > vet vatesran > ARC 4+ archive

4 man content
normal non DLC dungeons > normal dragonstar arena > normal DLC dungeons > normal blackrose prison > vet non DLC dungeons > vet non DLC hard mode dungeons > vet dragonstar > vet DLC dungeons > vet DLC hard modes > vet blackrose prison

12 man content
normal craglorn trials > normal expansion trials (in release order more or less) > vet craglorn trials > vet expansion trials > vet HM craglorn trials > vet HM expansion trials (DSR and Rockgrove being the hardest) > trifecta groups

But ofc, if you just quest and run around doing overland content never learn anything. If you never get decent gear (why should you, you can do all quests naked with light atacks and get carried in world bosses), never farmed a set in a dungeon or a trial and wear roleplaying sets with white weapons, yes some content is too hard. But not because it is hard for human beings, it is because people doesn't try. But then don't complain, go play the content you are willing to learn or get good.

Elsonso · November 2023

caperon wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Act 1 is so hard that can be completed with a naked magicka sorcerer using an alkosh destro staff.

It is not that betatesters are gifted. It's that many players don't want to engage with the game at all or learn anything, so anything harder than the tutorial overwhelms them.

That group is not interested in Endless Archive, anyway. No amount of beta testing feedback is going to change that.

Players who don't want to engage with the content are not going to build skills and knowledge more than they need to play what they want to engage with. Since Endless Archive is more about player skill and knowledge of boss mechanics, and less about builds and gear, not having those things is a formidable barrier.

These players are very vocal on the forums this days asking for nerfs to EA. One player complained because Yolnakrin was pushing him/her outside the platform with the heavy attack you need to block and has a very noticeable cue of about 3 seconds. Blocking is one of the most basic parts of combat and some players seems that refuse to engage in it, stil they are vocal in the forums and ask for nerf. Everything is too punishing for these players, but instead of do content they are willing to learn to do, they want the small part of content that doesn't cater specifically to them be nerfed because it is too hard when it is is, in fact, very easy if you do what you learn in the tutorial (and forget later because most of the content is an insult of how easy it is).

I think that a number of different groups are being mixed together here and it is causing confusion.

My philosophy is that the group that does not "want to engage with the game at all or learn anything, so anything harder than the tutorial overwhelms them" isn't going to be doing Endless Archive. If they do, they are more likely to say "not for me" than complain, because there is already a ton of content that is a better fit and they can simply continue doing that.

However, I see the potential for a second group is the low and middle-low skill level group. They are there because they are either learning or they are at the top of what their ESO skill will be for whatever reason. My impression is that this group will do more than base game overland and tutorials, if able to, so they don't really fit into the first category. Here, Endless Archive can benefit them if it provides a way for them to play closer to their level. Those who can get better will and will move on to harder Arcs, and hopefully harder content.

As I see it, everyone who runs the Endless Archive will hit their Peter Principle wall. It is designed that way. Not everyone is going to be able to do Arc 1, but the more people who want to do the content, and can work their way through Arc 1 before hitting the wall, the better.

What was interesting about Endless Archive was that it was possible for the first Arc to help build skills in a relatively low stress manner. No time limits. Two people rather than four, which is better for learning. Progressive difficulty. All the system has to do is be open enough to let them enter and give them the feeling that, even if they don't immediately succeed, the can see that it is possible. This is content that does not currently exist in ESO and it offered the potential to act as a bridge to build skills up.

So, I don't see it being about "nerfs" as much as making content that a lot of people from a wide range of skills levels can enjoy. To me, that is what ZOS has to deliver on with Endless Archive.

Rishikesa108 · November 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Act 1 is so hard that can be completed with a naked magicka sorcerer using an alkosh destro staff.

It is not that betatesters are gifted. It's that many players don't want to engage with the game at all or learn anything, so anything harder than the tutorial overwhelms them.

That group is not interested in Endless Archive, anyway. No amount of beta testing feedback is going to change that.

Players who don't want to engage with the content are not going to build skills and knowledge more than they need to play what they want to engage with. Since Endless Archive is more about player skill and knowledge of boss mechanics, and less about builds and gear, not having those things is a formidable barrier.

These players are very vocal on the forums this days asking for nerfs to EA. One player complained because Yolnakrin was pushing him/her outside the platform with the heavy attack you need to block and has a very noticeable cue of about 3 seconds. Blocking is one of the most basic parts of combat and some players seems that refuse to engage in it, stil they are vocal in the forums and ask for nerf. Everything is too punishing for these players, but instead of do content they are willing to learn to do, they want the small part of content that doesn't cater specifically to them be nerfed because it is too hard when it is is, in fact, very easy if you do what you learn in the tutorial (and forget later because most of the content is an insult of how easy it is).

I think that a number of different groups are being mixed together here and it is causing confusion.

My philosophy is that the group that does not "want to engage with the game at all or learn anything, so anything harder than the tutorial overwhelms them" isn't going to be doing Endless Archive. If they do, they are more likely to say "not for me" than complain, because there is already a ton of content that is a better fit and they can simply continue doing that.

However, I see the potential for a second group is the low and middle-low skill level group. They are there because they are either learning or they are at the top of what their ESO skill will be for whatever reason. My impression is that this group will do more than base game overland and tutorials, if able to, so they don't really fit into the first category. Here, Endless Archive can benefit them if it provides a way for them to play closer to their level. Those who can get better will and will move on to harder Arcs, and hopefully harder content.

As I see it, everyone who runs the Endless Archive will hit their Peter Principle wall. It is designed that way. Not everyone is going to be able to do Arc 1, but the more people who want to do the content, and can work their way through Arc 1 before hitting the wall, the better.

What was interesting about Endless Archive was that it was possible for the first Arc to help build skills in a relatively low stress manner. No time limits. Two people rather than four, which is better for learning. Progressive difficulty. All the system has to do is be open enough to let them enter and give them the feeling that, even if they don't immediately succeed, the can see that it is possible. This is content that does not currently exist in ESO and it offered the potential to act as a bridge to build skills up.

So, I don't see it being about "nerfs" as much as making content that a lot of people from a wide range of skills levels can enjoy. To me, that is what ZOS has to deliver on with Endless Archive.

It would be enough for ZOS to give the same opportunities to all classes in equal measure... to address EA's difficulties. Instead, some classes are pushed forward and others are pushed back. Some have benefits and a variety of area, defensive, tank or other skills... other classes have useless skills for this type of solo content. Players cannot be forced to change classes and create new characters. Equal opportunities must be given to all classes.

Braffin · November 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Act 1 is so hard that can be completed with a naked magicka sorcerer using an alkosh destro staff.

It is not that betatesters are gifted. It's that many players don't want to engage with the game at all or learn anything, so anything harder than the tutorial overwhelms them.

That group is not interested in Endless Archive, anyway. No amount of beta testing feedback is going to change that.

Players who don't want to engage with the content are not going to build skills and knowledge more than they need to play what they want to engage with. Since Endless Archive is more about player skill and knowledge of boss mechanics, and less about builds and gear, not having those things is a formidable barrier.

These players are very vocal on the forums this days asking for nerfs to EA. One player complained because Yolnakrin was pushing him/her outside the platform with the heavy attack you need to block and has a very noticeable cue of about 3 seconds. Blocking is one of the most basic parts of combat and some players seems that refuse to engage in it, stil they are vocal in the forums and ask for nerf. Everything is too punishing for these players, but instead of do content they are willing to learn to do, they want the small part of content that doesn't cater specifically to them be nerfed because it is too hard when it is is, in fact, very easy if you do what you learn in the tutorial (and forget later because most of the content is an insult of how easy it is).

I think that a number of different groups are being mixed together here and it is causing confusion.

My philosophy is that the group that does not "want to engage with the game at all or learn anything, so anything harder than the tutorial overwhelms them" isn't going to be doing Endless Archive. If they do, they are more likely to say "not for me" than complain, because there is already a ton of content that is a better fit and they can simply continue doing that.

However, I see the potential for a second group is the low and middle-low skill level group. They are there because they are either learning or they are at the top of what their ESO skill will be for whatever reason. My impression is that this group will do more than base game overland and tutorials, if able to, so they don't really fit into the first category. Here, Endless Archive can benefit them if it provides a way for them to play closer to their level. Those who can get better will and will move on to harder Arcs, and hopefully harder content.

As I see it, everyone who runs the Endless Archive will hit their Peter Principle wall. It is designed that way. Not everyone is going to be able to do Arc 1, but the more people who want to do the content, and can work their way through Arc 1 before hitting the wall, the better.

What was interesting about Endless Archive was that it was possible for the first Arc to help build skills in a relatively low stress manner. No time limits. Two people rather than four, which is better for learning. Progressive difficulty. All the system has to do is be open enough to let them enter and give them the feeling that, even if they don't immediately succeed, the can see that it is possible. This is content that does not currently exist in ESO and it offered the potential to act as a bridge to build skills up.

So, I don't see it being about "nerfs" as much as making content that a lot of people from a wide range of skills levels can enjoy. To me, that is what ZOS has to deliver on with Endless Archive.

You're not wrong with what you're saying.

Except EA is already all what you want it to be: accessible to all, challenging regardless of skill and with the promise of good and varying rewards.

Some additions would help of course: a training mode, saving-function and the ability to deactivate limited lifes (with also deactivated leaderboards as tradeoff). Almost nobody is opposing that.

The only thing a lot of people don't want to see are unnecessary nerfs to Arc 1.

Ragnarok0130 · November 2023

Recent wrote: »

Most game testers are above average or even gifted. When you have players testing yoir content that are streamers and also on usa servers witb the best ping ever...yea great content creators cos they are above average then please i beg you...take into consideration that most of us paying and playing your game are either average players or below average but we all want to feel like heros in our favourite game...not like losers..frustrated all the time.
I get it that there is this belief that we all want to strive to be the best so putting out hard content will get players all fired up and working towards beating this hard ass content but most players cannot so you are essentially frustrating you bigger game pool of players.

What if I told you that anyone can download the PTS and test content if they have a PC that meets the 9 year old 2014 min specs?

Ragnarok0130 · November 2023

Tatdad wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

HARD Disagree. EA does NOT need to be watered-down.
And this game is NOT designed to cater to mostly above-average-skill players.
If it were, they would not be able to entice more casual players, who are the larger part of the MMO target audience, into buying the game.
And Marketing is always going to go after the larger part of an audience, because Mo' Money.

You and the rest of the elites (smaller %) of players can hard disagree all you want but that won’t stop me from unsubbing.

I resubbed to the game literally because of endless archive, got short into it and one of the bosses literally one shots me .

Unsubbing. I could literally care less about anything else anyone has to say about it.

Quitting because of a one shot? Did you go online and look up the bosses mechanics and practice it again knowing what to expect before throwing in the good ole Nordic Bathing Towel?

kojou · November 2023

I not really sure where the disconnect is...

I feel like ZOS described what the Endless Archive was pretty well on their stream, and the lower difficulty for Arc 1 per PTS feedback makes it very accessible. There are a few bosses that if you are unlucky enough to get that make the Arc 1 potentially more challenging but that is what "/feedback" is for. If you hit a boss that you feel is over tuned then you should leave feedback on it. Just saying the whole thing needs a nerf does not help the developers resolve what is blocking your progress.

For example, one that I think needs fixing is the ice dragon, Laatvulan or something like that. When he flies and puts ice everywhere it can be very difficult to see where the safe areas are and it will basically one shot you if you are in it. I left in game feedback on that boss. I don't expect that they will fix it right away, but if enough people have the same complaint then I'm sure they eventually will.

The Flame Marauder is also a bit over tuned and will delete you if you are not prepared, but you don't have to face him until Arc 2 at the earliest, and it only costs you one thread.

The other nice thing about EA (unlike solo arenas) is you can bring a friend. I offered anyone in my guild to help them if they wanted to give it a shot. I'm not the greatest at it, but I can certainly carry someone through Arc 4 Thoat if they want to experience the whole thing. I don't mind doing it because it is more fun to do things with friends than it is solo and I still need a lot of set pieces to fill my stickerbook.

One thing I really like about EA is you have to completely change how you think about a build, and gear sets that are not optimal in other content are very much relevant in EA. There are craftable sets such as Fortified Brass and Heartland Conqueror that make for a great setup in EA to help you be more tanky while still doing damage, so you don't have to farm sets for your build at all.

Anyway, everyone has a different idea about what they find fun, so I get it if Endless Archive is not for you, but I think they did a good job of checking all the boxes for this content.