"skill issue"

BasP · August 2023

Now I'm not an end-gamer myself, but blaming elite gamers for the nerfs to "other playstyles" and thinking that ESO would miraculously become a better game if all end-gamers would just leave, as has been said on these forums too, seems a bit silly to me. In the end, it's ZOS that has a certain vision for the game, sets the difficulty of the content and nerfs sets or playstyles based on their data and ideas.

Besides, there are multiple difficulties for Dungeons, Trials and Arenas for a reason. If you don't feel like putting in the effort to do the Veteran versions and/or Trifectas (or are incapable of doing them for whatever reason), just do the Normal versions with a build you like and treat those as your end-game content.

Stamicka · August 2023

Sparxlost wrote: »

The "skill" gap between casual and hardcore players is too large.....

Why shouldn't this be the case? Are you suggesting that there should be a small difference between a player that puts in a lot of time and effort and one that doesn't?

Sparxlost wrote: »

I hate being the guy that "sucks at the game" because i chose a different playstyle that 90% of all others who just want higher damage numbers and will do anything to get them...
I shouldnt be expected to look up build videos or ask for help ESPECIALLY if i am a seasoned fantasy rpg gamer...

This speaks for itself. So much entitlement in this post.

PrimeSeptim · August 2023

What do you even want from that content though? Meaningless titles, silly skins that make you look like a Christmas tree and well...What else is there lol? I mean there's not a whole lot else is there? Nothing game changing anyway. Nothing that's going to add more hours of gameplay to the game.

If you want to be the guy who HAS to be the best at everything... Better than everyone else. The guy who trains really hard and commit hours of life to humping a dummy just for a title and skin or achievement then you have to be that guy.

But if you're just here because you love the Elder Scrolls and want to enjoy the story and the environment then be that guy. You don't need dungeons or trials. Any group content really. Nothing that requires to socialise anyhow. Normal dungeons are easy enough but good luck trying to actually listen and understand what's going on with the ADHD kids.

In my opinion, there are two groups of people in ESO: The MMO players and the Elder Scrolls players.

The former being all about numbers, spreadsheets, being better than everyone else and usually have an elitist attitude. They treat it like a second job. Everything has to be so efficient and methodical. They judge people based on how they choose to play the game. The latter being all about the story, RP and just enjoying the game. Really nice, chill people. But they seem pretty rare.

Unfortunately, everyone I've met in my time playing ESO goes that way (the former) for some reason. One person I used to talk to who was once a new player is now addicted. 2k+ CP (went flying past me - and I play this game A LOT), always in dungeons/trials now and rarely plays anything else. He used to be so chill. A lot of new players get indoctrinated by those players into that way of thinking though. That you have to have a certain about of DPS, build, etc. But you don't. Unless of course you want to do the group content that is dominated by those types of players.

That's my experience and impression anyway.

I don't get it or the gotta have it all/collector mentality.

I always wonder if most ESO players have even played the other Elder Scrolls games. I think most of them are low level players who play for a while and then quit which is understandable.

I think it's definitely possible to do everything in the game by playing what and how you want. You don't need to do all that animation cancelling and other nonsense. The hardest part is finding people who think alike.

They definitely should make a story mode version for all dungeons/trials and make the quests repeatable in case you never got the chance to listen to the dialogue the first time. The furnishings would be nice too but you can keep the skins and titles for flexing with if that's how you roll lol. Probably won't happen though because of the gatekeepers.

For me the real end game is replaying quests, alts, fishing and housing. Oh, and reading all those lore books I never read back in the day. My advice: Don't give a damn and play how you want. Now take cover! The sweaties are on the march!!

RicAlmighty · August 2023

Anifaas wrote: »

Hopefully the content finder that ZOS is working on will alleviate the access problem for causals who want to do trials..

I’m sorry but this statement is nonsensical. There is absolutely *nothing* that is preventing “casuals” from doing trials except themselves. There is no access problem. They can very easily post an LFG, join a guild, find a discord, yell out the window, etc., and find players to run trials with. They don’t ever have to interact with an “elitist” player at all if they don’t wish to. The problem, as it always is, is that they do not want to put in even a modicum of effort in doing so. If you are not motivated enough to put in the effort to find a trials group, then there is a good chance that you haven’t put the effort in to have a trials ready build either. Even so, there is absolutely no impediment to getting 11 others together and running naked trials if you so desire.

Dr_Con · August 2023

premade trial finder will not fix the issue, and if it does get implemented we are 100% going to see more of these topics about people getting votekicked from them when logs reveal that someone is wearing hanu's compassion and winter's embrace as a healer.

thorwyn · August 2023

I shouldnt be expected to look up build videos or ask for help ESPECIALLY if i am a seasoned fantasy rpg gamer...

Strange argument. What does "seasoned fantasy rpg gamer" have to do with anything skill related? I am so "seasoned" I played Bard's Tale 1 on a C64 and Lords of Midnight on the Spectrum and I still don't expect a head start or a bonus from it. I worked towards everything I have achieved in ESO and that's how it should be. Otherwise it would be boring.

ForzaRammer · August 2023

There are tons of low req pve guilds, some of them don’t even have dps reqs, good luck on finding supports with that kind of group though

Aminatu · November 2023

Just popping in to say that I don't like the 2-bar play style because I'm on satellite and it takes too long to switch (and sometimes doesn't even register that I tried to switch). Plus I fully admit I'm more about having fun & not stressing over the fights. I guess you could call me casual. However, I'm not doing trials or endgame and I don't even know what my dps is because I don't care. If people enjoy focusing on that aspect, good for them. But I really do prefer one bar combat. Games are meant to be enjoyed and I don't want it to feel like a job.

TaSheen · November 2023

Aminatu wrote: »

Just popping in to say that I don't like the 2-bar play style because I'm on satellite and it takes too long to switch (and sometimes doesn't even register that I tried to switch). Plus I fully admit I'm more about having fun & not stressing over the fights. I guess you could call me casual. However, I'm not doing trials or endgame and I don't even know what my dps is because I don't care. If people enjoy focusing on that aspect, good for them. But I really do prefer one bar combat. Games are meant to be enjoyed and I don't want it to feel like a job.

Oh, I know the pain. Sat is my only option for connection (other than.... yeah.... dialup). So one bar Oakensoul for my characters, though not HA (I don't like the whole HA playstyle) - I do my best to weave, though of course much of the time either the skill attack or the ability doesn't fire.

mercer_cap · November 2023

Sparxlost wrote: »

I shouldnt be expected to look up build videos or ask for help ESPECIALLY if i am a seasoned fantasy rpg gamer...

I agree with that, and you are right for ths game actually. You can do 95% of the content pretty blind

Sparxlost wrote: »

Idk i always hated games where you only had one or two ways to play your class and i dont think eso was meant to be that way..

This is called pushing the limits. it is the last 1-2% of the gameplay where you really have to go deep and do research. And oh, I have a surprise for you: there are more than two options. Some people enjoy pushing the limits, sweaty hands, adrenaline etc. But also the group discussions and the build crafting before,. Let them enjoy it, it is great ESO offers such playstyle in a few occasions.

Sparxlost wrote: »

and end-game pve is pure toxicity to play..

[snip]
[edited for flaming]

Lags · November 2023

are you joking? they just keep making the game easier and easier and people keep complaining. its unreal. I mean really, this game is a million times easier than it was 5 years ago, and personally i dont think thats a good thing. And If it keeps up this way there will be no one left to help you guys run hard content or play better. The game already feels like a ghost town. Like if casual players want to run hard content why dont people make more casual guilds? Where you can do a vet trial with 50k dps and people are fine with it. And you have a group finder now, why is no one using it? I know why, do you?

You do not need 100k+ dps to do most endgame content. If people dont want to run something with you because your dps is low because you want to run different stuff then you need to find people that will. But im telling you making the game brainless, boring, and more casual friendly, as they have been doing, is only chasing away endgame players. So the amount of people to do this content with will only shrink.

And no im not wondering why pvp is dead and endgame pve is toxic, i know the answer. Zos has chased so many people away these last 2 years, and its not because they made things harder and less casual friendly.

Sluggy · November 2023

Chess is a game with a very high skill gap. Candyland literally has no skill gap at all. One is a game that has stood the test of time for centuries, entire industries revolve around, and people willingly dedicate many years of their life to improving even if they never master it. The other is something they stop playing after the age of six. Skill gaps are a good thing.

While I do think that number have gotten way outta control - the difference between good DPS and bad DPS was maybe 10k to 15k when the game came out - it seems everybody absolutely hated zos's efforts to reign that in a few patch ago. So they went the other way and made it much easier for people to raise their numbers by obscene amounts. This is the result of that. Instead of everyone capping out at 25k to 30k dps you now have some easier-to-use builds that give you 100k. Ideal solution? I don't think so. But for once I'm going to side with ZoS and say they did exactly what the community asked for. I want a skill gap because I rather like idea of having room to grow.

gariondavey · November 2023

Stamicka wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

The "skill" gap between casual and hardcore players is too large.....

Why shouldn't this be the case? Are you suggesting that there should be a small difference between a player that puts in a lot of time and effort and one that doesn't?

Sparxlost wrote: »

I hate being the guy that "sucks at the game" because i chose a different playstyle that 90% of all others who just want higher damage numbers and will do anything to get them...
I shouldnt be expected to look up build videos or ask for help ESPECIALLY if i am a seasoned fantasy rpg gamer...

This speaks for itself. So much entitlement in this post.

Amen

Lags · November 2023

Sluggy wrote: »

Chess is a game with a very high skill gap. Candyland literally has no skill gap at all. One is a game that has stood the test of time for centuries, entire industries revolve around, and people willingly dedicate many years of their life to improving even if they never master it. The other is something they stop playing after the age of six. Skill gaps are a good thing.

While I do think that number have gotten way outta control - the difference between good DPS and bad DPS was maybe 10k to 15k when the game came out - it seems everybody absolutely hated zos's efforts to reign that in a few patch ago. So they went the other way and made it much easier for people to raise their numbers by obscene amounts. This is the result of that. Instead of everyone capping out at 25k to 30k dps you now have some easier-to-use builds that give you 100k. Ideal solution? I don't think so. But for once I'm going to side with ZoS and say they did exactly what the community asked for. I want a skill gap because I rather like idea of having room to grow.

well said. People like to be challenged. People like to have things/others to aspire to get or overcome. This is gone from eso, and it really shows. If you want to target casual players, who play for a few months and then leave, then fine but it does little good for the game. The players who actually care to go above and beyond for the eso community are mostly gone, and it shows. Whether its guild leaders, content creators, community leaders, addon creators, people who create in game events.

I could give you a huge list of people in the categories i just listed who are just gone because of game direction, and time will show how unfortunate that is. Community is everything in an mmo.

To give a current example i would compare it to classic world of warcraft. Its been pretty dead for a while, but some months ago a small amount of people started using an addon to track and play "hardcore" where death means you delete the character. Then it blew up and blizzard made offical servers. And now hardcore is very popular and regular classic wow had a massive resurgence of players. Because of community members that started a movement in the game. You will never see something like that in eso, not the way things are now.

I mean ***, youd be hard pressed to find a dueling tournament these days in eso. Its so damn sad. I think back to sitting around the mournhold stairs with a hundred people around talking and trading, and looking for people to run dungeons with, and asking for information. Or being in any capitol city back in one tamriel to morrowind, where 30 people would be dueling and the chat would be full of people LFG and trading.

Or the pvp tournaments we had in cyrodil. Or the dueling tournaments multiple people used to have every week. Or the time sypher pk came to xbox to host a pvp tournament, or another time he came to start his stupid RGB guild, and there was hundreds and hundreds of people all around in the same area interacting and having fun.

Zos wanted to turn eso into a casual friendly non mmo mostly solo experience, and they're succeeding. Like mmo players want to play an mmo and while eso is certainly an mmo, it feels less and less like it every year. You can disagree with me if you want to, but if you think this community is anything like what it used to be, i just think you're flat out wrong.

And you cant say the game isnt easy and casual friendly. It is the path zos has chosen whole heartedly. I think that mind set, combined with many other issues such as making combat more clunky, stupid nerfs, stupid sets, terrible rewards, terrible performance, hybridization, and more, has caused eso to lose many endgame players and many players who cared to go above and beyond for the community. But like i said, this is the path zos has chosen.

Jaimeh · November 2023

OP you need to give more context: which activity did you have issues with? What's your class/spec? It's wildly off the mark to say you can only play things one or two ways to be effective. Even PvP, with its admittedly current tanky meta, can accommodate for instance something like a glass canon build in the form of bombers, and that's just one small example. For PvE, unless you are running in a highly optimized group, you can be effective in your role in many different ways. I've tanked vet content on my healer, I've solo'ed dlc vet content on a tanky dps, I've dps'ed and off-healed in trials on a damage dealer, or healed and off-dps'ed on a healer, and none of these builds were what you'd normally see on build sites, just things that worked for that particular case. I think ESO offers a lot of freedom on how you can play AND be effective (which is ultimately evident on people clearing vet content on naked builds), it's not about the build: it's knowing your class, the game's combat, the mechanics of a certain fights, and having environmental awareness. If you have that you can make so many things work and work well.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

PrimeSeptim wrote: »

In my opinion, there are two groups of people in ESO: The MMO players and the Elder Scrolls players.

The former being all about numbers, spreadsheets, being better than everyone else and usually have an elitist attitude. They treat it like a second job. Everything has to be so efficient and methodical. They judge people based on how they choose to play the game. The latter being all about the story, RP and just enjoying the game. Really nice, chill people. But they seem pretty rare.

There is so much wrong with this. Idk what sever you are on or who you play with but on the ps sever end game is tiny. We all pretty much know or know of each other. If someone is a garbage person it spreads fast. Im in a trial guild that has several server records. The gm has absolutely no patience for toxic behaviors. You will get booted, good player or not. A raid team is more like a sports team, not a job. We are all working together towards a goal, encouraging each other because we want to achieve something together. We work to get better to support the team goal as best we can just like you would train for any sport. There is a lot more theory in end game then people are lead to believe.
Several of my groups dont use traditional "meta" setup.

On a personal note i love my teams. We have a ton of fun together, we challenge ourselves, we die a bunch, we laugh at whoever got yeeted off somewhere. We also just do random stuff together, not always in trials. We'll hunt leads together, kill dragons, come check out eachothers house, do dragon star, heck some of them have master angler... This is an idea that has been perpetuated and it making people shy away from trials.

On a separate note im an elder scrolls lore head. Ive played every game, listened to multi hr discussions, read all the random books in all the games and had god knows how many hrs logged in skyrim, morrowind and oblivion. I could basically spit out the history of tamerial going back to arena. Eso is the only mmo ive ever played and likely the only one i will. I love it because of the universe its set in.

So no, we arent split into these two static categories. Yeah im an end gamer, yeah i do trifectas but i do everything else as well and most of it with my teams. We are only competitive with ourselves.

joergino · November 2023

Lags wrote: »

are you joking? they just keep making the game easier and easier and people keep complaining. its unreal.

Actually, the exact opposite is true.

Endless Archive: even arc 1 is impossible to do with a companion (dragon boss!)

Bastion Nymic: absolute nightmare, no point ever trying to solo this again

Roaming world bosses and the new seekers: impossible to do without plenty of help

New world bosses: impossible without plenty of help, can wipe even largish groups

Last DLC dungeons: absolute pain to do, several bosses took several attempts (with a group who has done all dungeons, usually exactly once because the healer would never ever visit any of them again, just once for the quest)

The game is trying to become more and more annoying. It seems all non-hardcore players are supposed to get the memo that they are absolutely unwanted in this game and they should finally leave.
This is what I had been afraid of when the campaign for harder or veteran overland started - we seem to be getting "harder everything new", so there will be nothing left apart from the story.
Are we supposed to stay away for eleven and a half months, just to log in for a couple of days and do the story each June?

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

Lags wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Chess is a game with a very high skill gap. Candyland literally has no skill gap at all. One is a game that has stood the test of time for centuries, entire industries revolve around, and people willingly dedicate many years of their life to improving even if they never master it. The other is something they stop playing after the age of six. Skill gaps are a good thing.

While I do think that number have gotten way outta control - the difference between good DPS and bad DPS was maybe 10k to 15k when the game came out - it seems everybody absolutely hated zos's efforts to reign that in a few patch ago. So they went the other way and made it much easier for people to raise their numbers by obscene amounts. This is the result of that. Instead of everyone capping out at 25k to 30k dps you now have some easier-to-use builds that give you 100k. Ideal solution? I don't think so. But for once I'm going to side with ZoS and say they did exactly what the community asked for. I want a skill gap because I rather like idea of having room to grow.

well said. People like to be challenged. People like to have things/others to aspire to get or overcome. This is gone from eso, and it really shows. If you want to target casual players, who play for a few months and then leave, then fine but it does little good for the game. The players who actually care to go above and beyond for the eso community are mostly gone, and it shows. Whether its guild leaders, content creators, community leaders, addon creators, people who create in game events.

I could give you a huge list of people in the categories i just listed who are just gone because of game direction, and time will show how unfortunate that is. Community is everything in an mmo.

To give a current example i would compare it to classic world of warcraft. Its been pretty dead for a while, but some months ago a small amount of people started using an addon to track and play "hardcore" where death means you delete the character. Then it blew up and blizzard made offical servers. And now hardcore is very popular and regular classic wow had a massive resurgence of players. Because of community members that started a movement in the game. You will never see something like that in eso, not the way things are now.

I mean ***, youd be hard pressed to find a dueling tournament these days in eso. Its so damn sad. I think back to sitting around the mournhold stairs with a hundred people around talking and trading, and looking for people to run dungeons with, and asking for information. Or being in any capitol city back in one tamriel to morrowind, where 30 people would be dueling and the chat would be full of people LFG and trading.

Or the pvp tournaments we had in cyrodil. Or the dueling tournaments multiple people used to have every week. Or the time sypher pk came to xbox to host a pvp tournament, or another time he came to start his stupid RGB guild, and there was hundreds and hundreds of people all around in the same area interacting and having fun.

Zos wanted to turn eso into a casual friendly non mmo mostly solo experience, and they're succeeding. Like mmo players want to play an mmo and while eso is certainly an mmo, it feels less and less like it every year. You can disagree with me if you want to, but if you think this community is anything like what it used to be, i just think you're flat out wrong.

And you cant say the game isnt easy and casual friendly. It is the path zos has chosen whole heartedly. I think that mind set, combined with many other issues such as making combat more clunky, stupid nerfs, stupid sets, terrible rewards, terrible performance, hybridization, and more, has caused eso to lose many endgame players and many players who cared to go above and beyond for the community. But like i said, this is the path zos has chosen.

Completey. And this is why actual end game players, those guys that hit 115 or 125k, they want more folks to enter the community. We are shrinking and we all know this. After a while there wont be anyone at that level left to raid with. Id guess the folks running this level of content at a couple hundred maybe on my server. One of my raid teams started out as part of project vitality out of the eso u discord. If you dont know it look it up. It ended because so many leads left after u35 because their teams, both experienced and those getting first vet clears, had to start from scratch. Thats the reality of true end game here. The majority were happy about oaken builds because we saw a chance for new a new generation because guess what? We get burned out eventually. A lot of folks in progs i helped out with started with oaken and it gave them confidence and interest in trying other builds and other content, from younger players to folks up in their 70s. They could focus on learning mechanics and not struggle because they were worried about not hitting the numbers. Its not that these players are forced into meta builds, they get to the point where they want to try them because they get really invested in the success of their teams.

Now i wont be disingenuous and say there arent trash pandas in my community, there are but they are the minority. That is with any community where things are in any way competitive but largely the folks that were mad about oaken were the folks who struggled to hit in the 80s or had just broken 90k. They looked at it as an insult to the work they put in because they dont yet understand how small we are and the positive aspects of that playstyle being available.

BXR_Lonestar · November 2023

Sparxlost wrote: »

The "skill" gap between casual and hardcore players is too large.....

I hate being the guy that "sucks at the game" because i chose a different playstyle that 90% of all others who just want higher damage numbers and will do anything to get them...
I shouldnt be expected to look up build videos or ask for help ESPECIALLY if i am a seasoned fantasy rpg gamer...
There are so many fun playstyles in the game that could be effective but just suck in all aspects of the end-game when they really should be viable but instead we have got these insane "stack as many defenses and buffs as you can (cheese) without losing optimal damage" builds. Idk i always hated games where you only had one or two ways to play your class and i dont think eso was meant to be that way..

ive played through the fun parts of the game enough times to be over it an new content isnt really doing it for me so i will probably just pick up another game and come back purely to reexperience base game factions + a few dlc.. so no biggie just if you're wondering why pvp is fokn ded 24/7 and end-game pve is pure toxicity to play..

Dude its totally fine for you to play with whatever playstyle you want to play with. Run any build you want, play whatever way you want to play. If you want to run through the game with an orc that fights unarmed, so be it. Just don't expect that you can complete endgame (i.e., veteran) PVE content or compete with the upper echelon of players in PVP.

For PVE, there is no getting around it. If you want to be an end-game player, your going to need an end-game build. Either that, or learn how to be an elite tier support player.

For PVP, learn how to run siege and do it well. I'm not the best player when it comes to PVP combat, but I know how to run siege pretty darn good and so I know I can be an asset and contribute in a group.

And if your not willing to put in the effort to do either of these things, then don't lament that you'll never complete XYZ trial on vet or get X item because you can't do vet content. That's not just in gaming, that's kind of how life is. You want something, you need to go earn it.

Juju_beans · November 2023

I'm a casual gamer but those hardcore players and the BIS gear/rotations have no effect on my and my play style or game.
I don't try to get into their groups.

I don't understand why a casual player would quit because of hardcore players and their meta.

BXR_Lonestar · November 2023

barney2525 wrote: »

Why should we, as causals, who focus on PVE, (such as myself), be able to be as 'skilled' and competent in PvP combat as those who have worked for years perfecting their craft, when we have not put in that time and effort to become that skilled ?

Anybody Can be great and skilled in combat. ... IF they decide to put in the work and effort required. And part of that work is having the character die ( or is it dye? ) many times as they are developing the skill.

You know what is hilarious? I was in Cyro the other day on my Oakensorc just playing around for S/G's and my friend was on her Oakensorc too. We were able to kill people left and right with our HA builds and the opponents needed to outnumber us by a ratio of 3:1 in order to kill us. We're not the best PVP players, but we know some PVP basics and we know how to play our builds...

Sure, we do eventually die, but that's the nature of PVP. But literally if you can play a HA build, you can play at least at a decent level in PVP.

Ph1p · November 2023

joergino wrote: »

Endless Archive: even arc 1 is impossible to do with a companion (dragon boss!)

Bastion Nymic: absolute nightmare, no point ever trying to solo this again

Roaming world bosses and the new seekers: impossible to do without plenty of help

New world bosses: impossible without plenty of help, can wipe even largish groups

Last DLC dungeons: absolute pain to do, several bosses took several attempts (with a group who has done all dungeons, usually exactly once because the healer would never ever visit any of them again, just once for the quest)

Arc 1 of Endless Archive can be solo'ed even without an endgame-level build or understanding. Sure, you might need to practice some mechanics, but why should new (and free) content and rewards be completely without any challenge? Besides, you can also duo EA, which makes Arc 1 a breeze.

Bastion Nymic was explicitly designed as a group experience. While I agree with the initial complaints like about the number of Ichors needed or the health of Seekers: If you try to solo group content, you can't complain about it being difficult.

Same goes for world bosses. They are supposed to be tackled as a group, like Elsweyr dragons or Reach Harrowstorms. Besides, the bosses that wipe large groups, like the Arcanist WB in Apocrypha, do so because nobody pays attention to a simple mechanic where 1 person just needs to stand in a circle and block...

Overall, I think it's entirely normal that new content has elements with higher difficulty than the base game. The latter has to introduce new people to the game, teach mechanics, and so on. But as one progresses in skill and experience, ZOS cannot just add more of the same with DLCs.

Jierdanit · November 2023

joergino wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

are you joking? they just keep making the game easier and easier and people keep complaining. its unreal.

Actually, the exact opposite is true.

Endless Archive: even arc 1 is impossible to do with a companion (dragon boss!)

Bastion Nymic: absolute nightmare, no point ever trying to solo this again

Roaming world bosses and the new seekers: impossible to do without plenty of help

New world bosses: impossible without plenty of help, can wipe even largish groups

Last DLC dungeons: absolute pain to do, several bosses took several attempts (with a group who has done all dungeons, usually exactly once because the healer would never ever visit any of them again, just once for the quest)

The game is trying to become more and more annoying. It seems all non-hardcore players are supposed to get the memo that they are absolutely unwanted in this game and they should finally leave.
This is whjat I had been afraid of when the campaign for harder or veteran overland started - we seem to be getting "harder everything new", so there will be nothing left apart from the story.
Are we supposed to stay away for eleven and a half months, just to log in for a couple of days and do the story each June?

LOL.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

joergino wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

are you joking? they just keep making the game easier and easier and people keep complaining. its unreal.

Actually, the exact opposite is true.

Endless Archive: even arc 1 is impossible to do with a companion (dragon boss!)

Bastion Nymic: absolute nightmare, no point ever trying to solo this again

Roaming world bosses and the new seekers: impossible to do without plenty of help

New world bosses: impossible without plenty of help, can wipe even largish groups

Last DLC dungeons: absolute pain to do, several bosses took several attempts (with a group who has done all dungeons, usually exactly once because the healer would never ever visit any of them again, just once for the quest)

The game is trying to become more and more annoying. It seems all non-hardcore players are supposed to get the memo that they are absolutely unwanted in this game and they should finally leave.
This is what I had been afraid of when the campaign for harder or veteran overland started - we seem to be getting "harder everything new", so there will be nothing left apart from the story.
Are we supposed to stay away for eleven and a half months, just to log in for a couple of days and do the story each June?

I think the goal for some of this was to add more of the "multi-player" aspect back into the mmo. People complained a lot that in dungeons for example, healers and even tanks were sometimes just not needed. World bosses they really wanted it to make it a group effort like a lot of other mmos where it is just mandatory to have a few people to make it happen. It is possible to solo them but i will agree that its stupid hard and you would need to be at a pretty high play level with a really specific build to do it though. I do emphasize with folks who just want to do it solo. Coming out of skyrim i did that for a long time. I do think EA should have some things added to help alleviate that. More threads for arc 1, more curated bosses so you dont get immediately slapped by mechs you have never seen, the ability to save progress although i dont think you should be eligible for leaderboards. In my experience most casual solo players arent interested in that anyhow. For bastion maybe some scaling depending on your group size is a good idea. Just my thoughts.

One final thing to meantion: as far as calling for vet overland - that has been a thing since one tamerial. Overland used to actually be really difficult in dlc zones and craglorn for example. That why you see "entering group area" at different points on the map in craglorn is a thing.
From what ive seen most folks that want vet overland want it to be optional though so other more causal folks can have their fun as well. Some have suggested an alternate server for this in fact.

YetAnotherLinuxUser · November 2023

Soarora wrote: »

Lots of misinformation in this thread. What is viable depends on the level of content you intend to do— I can get 75k on a trial dummy with some real weird builds. Even then, “one way to play” only really comes in when it comes to RG and DSR HM as well as trial trifectas. As long as you do enough damage for the content you’re intending to do then it’s fine. I do think some old sets could be buffed though and more niches could be supported.
As for HA builds, most endgamers actually support it. There’s efforts by endgamers to get casuals to become endgamers. As someone who is one of the few who doesn’t support HA builds it’s more complicated than “it’s not la weaving so it’s bad”. I just want the tankiness of the build toned down and for 2-bar HA to be viable, not for HA to be wiped from existence.
I do think that the skill gap should exist though. Yes, you need to learn your rotation, yes you need to learn how to weave (except HA builds and arcanist it’s passable, though weaving will still crank out more damage), yes you need to practice on the dummy, yes you need to know how to switch gear and flex skill spots. We can’t have everything handed to us. If you don’t want to learn as a dps, learn as a healer or a tank. There’s a skill gap there too but you have no dummy to practice on.

so in the end you want everyone on a bar swapping light attack style.

Ph1p · November 2023

YetAnotherLinuxUser wrote: »

so in the end you want everyone on a bar swapping light attack style.

How did you reach that conclusion, when the OP literally wrote "I just want the tankiness of the build toned down and for 2-bar HA to be viable, not for HA to be wiped from existence"?

JanTanhide · November 2023

These threads are quite interesting to me. I've been in this game nearly 9 years and completed most content. I've yet to find an "Elite Player".

The Tags being applied to players is very derisive and certainly not good for the community in my opinion.

When I first started this game I had no idea how to play and wandered around for a year or so with junk dropped gear playing in first person mode. (I didn't know all I had to do was scroll out for third person. Those were the days).

I couldn't beat three NPC's in Wrothgar at the same time. I died every time. I didn't know how the game worked nor did I know about anything else in the game. The game is huge in more ways than one. I'm still learning the game even with over 18,000 hours in it on multiple accounts.

My level of understanding and being able to do Vet content is not what others is. That's perception. I can say this, if you want to improve and understand how the game works you have to devote time to learn the core of the game and keep going.

I.M.O. it's not good to ask ZOS to change the game to accommodate someone that has not or will not put in the time and effort others have to improve their builds and skill level to accomplish harder content.

I'm not an Elite player, I'm someone who has take the time over many years to learn the game and improve. It's a learning process that never ends. ZOS is always changing various aspects in the game so one has to keep up with those changes and understand the impact.

Fair Winds And Following Seas

Lags · November 2023

joergino wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

are you joking? they just keep making the game easier and easier and people keep complaining. its unreal.

Actually, the exact opposite is true.

Endless Archive: even arc 1 is impossible to do with a companion (dragon boss!)

Bastion Nymic: absolute nightmare, no point ever trying to solo this again

Roaming world bosses and the new seekers: impossible to do without plenty of help

New world bosses: impossible without plenty of help, can wipe even largish groups

Last DLC dungeons: absolute pain to do, several bosses took several attempts (with a group who has done all dungeons, usually exactly once because the healer would never ever visit any of them again, just once for the quest)

The game is trying to become more and more annoying. It seems all non-hardcore players are supposed to get the memo that they are absolutely unwanted in this game and they should finally leave.
This is what I had been afraid of when the campaign for harder or veteran overland started - we seem to be getting "harder everything new", so there will be nothing left apart from the story.
Are we supposed to stay away for eleven and a half months, just to log in for a couple of days and do the story each June?

its wild that you think this way. What would you have done if you played back in 2016? would you have grinded to v16? on multiple characters? before you could share cp? Or how about in 2017? Would you have gone for flawless conqueror in vma? Before all of this damage, all of these builds, or all of these busted sets? Or tried to get your vmol skin? Or how about just running around in the world? without your friends, because maybe they played on dc and you played ep so you couldnt play with them. Or maybe you wanted to go to craglorn or a zone outside of your level, and you just got killed by adds in every fight you got in.

I mean i could list a thousand things they have done. you have been coddled. The nerfs to animation canceling was for the sake of casual or lazy players. The nerfs to light attacks. The cast times on ultimates. dumbing things down for the sake of people who they think dont want to improve.

Like what is it you people want? Do you just want a single player experience? You dont want to have to do ***some*** things with other people? In an mmorpg? Lmao. Arc 1 is impossible to do with a companion? I disagree. The way you say dragon boss im going to go ahead an assume its something i havent experienced with a companion, and some mechanic you need both people to be actual players for. Fine, i call that an oversight by zos.

You cant solo every world boss? Ok, show me an mmo where you can solo every world boss intended for a group. in eso you can solo like 95% of them. And BN can be solod. You can solo almost anything in this game, but i dont usually even though i could. Know why? Because its an m m o r p g. If i want to do solo things in an mmo ill go quest, or solo pvp, or do a solo arnea, or go farm materials, or certain world events, or trade, or do any of the countless stories in game, or work on a house, or antiquites, whatever. Or if you're into it take up the challenge of soloing group content, but thats for people who are into it, i am not.

You cant just *** on the group content in the game and act like there is no solo content. It is just not true. And vet dlc dungeons are supposed to be a challenge. You need to find people who actually want to run it and learn it. Eso endgame is more mechanics and knowledge than anything. And maybe bring a healer that doesnt just want to run it one time.

But you still could do normal dlc dungeons. And get the same gear. I mean you guys act like in any mmo ever you can just do hard group content without putting an much effort. Its not the case, and it would be awful for the game. You have normal dungeons, vet dungeons, normal dlc dungeons, and public dungeons. All of which are pretty easy. Even some of the vet dlc dungeons are easier these days. But most of it is more casual friendly.

Let me just make one thing clear here. Its ok for you to say this game is to hard for me. Or certain things in the game are too hard. Vma, BN, endless archive, vateshran, Vet dlc dungeons, vet trials, etc etc. These things are too hard for me. Vet dlc dungeons are too hard for me, and i dont have the time or care enough to improve/learn to do these things. And to that i would say, fine. Thats ok. What i cannot understand is the people who say the game is too hard or not solo/casual friendly when it is the most casual/beginner/solo friendly mmo that exists.

And also let me make one more thing clear. If zos had a good reward system in this game people not doing endgame content would be less of an issue for them. For example, you get a mount for getting something like godslayer, but you also could get one for doing fishing, or a ton of quests, or something. Then put that idea throughout the game. But they dont, because reasons, and we have this bad reward system full of mementos and face paint.

Lags · November 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Chess is a game with a very high skill gap. Candyland literally has no skill gap at all. One is a game that has stood the test of time for centuries, entire industries revolve around, and people willingly dedicate many years of their life to improving even if they never master it. The other is something they stop playing after the age of six. Skill gaps are a good thing.

While I do think that number have gotten way outta control - the difference between good DPS and bad DPS was maybe 10k to 15k when the game came out - it seems everybody absolutely hated zos's efforts to reign that in a few patch ago. So they went the other way and made it much easier for people to raise their numbers by obscene amounts. This is the result of that. Instead of everyone capping out at 25k to 30k dps you now have some easier-to-use builds that give you 100k. Ideal solution? I don't think so. But for once I'm going to side with ZoS and say they did exactly what the community asked for. I want a skill gap because I rather like idea of having room to grow.

well said. People like to be challenged. People like to have things/others to aspire to get or overcome. This is gone from eso, and it really shows. If you want to target casual players, who play for a few months and then leave, then fine but it does little good for the game. The players who actually care to go above and beyond for the eso community are mostly gone, and it shows. Whether its guild leaders, content creators, community leaders, addon creators, people who create in game events.

I could give you a huge list of people in the categories i just listed who are just gone because of game direction, and time will show how unfortunate that is. Community is everything in an mmo.

To give a current example i would compare it to classic world of warcraft. Its been pretty dead for a while, but some months ago a small amount of people started using an addon to track and play "hardcore" where death means you delete the character. Then it blew up and blizzard made offical servers. And now hardcore is very popular and regular classic wow had a massive resurgence of players. Because of community members that started a movement in the game. You will never see something like that in eso, not the way things are now.

I mean ***, youd be hard pressed to find a dueling tournament these days in eso. Its so damn sad. I think back to sitting around the mournhold stairs with a hundred people around talking and trading, and looking for people to run dungeons with, and asking for information. Or being in any capitol city back in one tamriel to morrowind, where 30 people would be dueling and the chat would be full of people LFG and trading.

Or the pvp tournaments we had in cyrodil. Or the dueling tournaments multiple people used to have every week. Or the time sypher pk came to xbox to host a pvp tournament, or another time he came to start his stupid RGB guild, and there was hundreds and hundreds of people all around in the same area interacting and having fun.

Zos wanted to turn eso into a casual friendly non mmo mostly solo experience, and they're succeeding. Like mmo players want to play an mmo and while eso is certainly an mmo, it feels less and less like it every year. You can disagree with me if you want to, but if you think this community is anything like what it used to be, i just think you're flat out wrong.

And you cant say the game isnt easy and casual friendly. It is the path zos has chosen whole heartedly. I think that mind set, combined with many other issues such as making combat more clunky, stupid nerfs, stupid sets, terrible rewards, terrible performance, hybridization, and more, has caused eso to lose many endgame players and many players who cared to go above and beyond for the community. But like i said, this is the path zos has chosen.

Completey. And this is why actual end game players, those guys that hit 115 or 125k, they want more folks to enter the community. We are shrinking and we all know this. After a while there wont be anyone at that level left to raid with. Id guess the folks running this level of content at a couple hundred maybe on my server. One of my raid teams started out as part of project vitality out of the eso u discord. If you dont know it look it up. It ended because so many leads left after u35 because their teams, both experienced and those getting first vet clears, had to start from scratch. Thats the reality of true end game here. The majority were happy about oaken builds because we saw a chance for new a new generation because guess what? We get burned out eventually. A lot of folks in progs i helped out with started with oaken and it gave them confidence and interest in trying other builds and other content, from younger players to folks up in their 70s. They could focus on learning mechanics and not struggle because they were worried about not hitting the numbers. Its not that these players are forced into meta builds, they get to the point where they want to try them because they get really invested in the success of their teams.

Now i wont be disingenuous and say there arent trash pandas in my community, there are but they are the minority. That is with any community where things are in any way competitive but largely the folks that were mad about oaken were the folks who struggled to hit in the 80s or had just broken 90k. They looked at it as an insult to the work they put in because they dont yet understand how small we are and the positive aspects of that playstyle being available.

Ya its so sad to see it. Zos is just chasing people away by the boatloads in exchange for a revolving door of casual players who stick around for a month or so and then leave. You wont see a project vitality, or addons, or dueling tournaments, or eso university, or anything like that from casual players who dont play much and dont care much. And thats not to say they dont have a place here, because they always have been here and always had a place, but the direction of things has really put off the players who do want to play a lot and put time/effort into the game/community.

in my honest opinion there are just core fundamentals to a good mmo and zos just keeps throwing them out the window, ignoring them completely, or slowly grinding them down to nothing.

This game has all the potential in the world. It was never going to be like wow but it could have been like ff14, it could have pulled many players. But certain things, like rewards, will just always turn people away. Or not make them commit to staying for a long time. It had the name, the world, the lore, and the backing. But they just dont want to take risks and settle with decent instead of aiming for greatness.

Lags · November 2023

JanTanhide wrote: »

These threads are quite interesting to me. I've been in this game nearly 9 years and completed most content. I've yet to find an "Elite Player".

The Tags being applied to players is very derisive and certainly not good for the community in my opinion.

When I first started this game I had no idea how to play and wandered around for a year or so with junk dropped gear playing in first person mode. (I didn't know all I had to do was scroll out for third person. Those were the days).

I couldn't beat three NPC's in Wrothgar at the same time. I died every time. I didn't know how the game worked nor did I know about anything else in the game. The game is huge in more ways than one. I'm still learning the game even with over 18,000 hours in it on multiple accounts.

My level of understanding and being able to do Vet content is not what others is. That's perception. I can say this, if you want to improve and understand how the game works you have to devote time to learn the core of the game and keep going.

I.M.O. it's not good to ask ZOS to change the game to accommodate someone that has not or will not put in the time and effort others have to improve their builds and skill level to accomplish harder content.

I'm not an Elite player, I'm someone who has take the time over many years to learn the game and improve. It's a learning process that never ends. ZOS is always changing various aspects in the game so one has to keep up with those changes and understand the impact.

Fair Winds And Following Seas

but thats the issue. To super casual players that zos is coddling you are an elite player or elitst. Because you are a veteran player. Meaning you have played for a long time and have game knowledge. But i find it hard to even blame these people. Yes they are kind of toxic, toxic casuals some may say, but there is a complete lack of incentive to improve and that is by design.

Why bother getting better at pvp when you can just run around with 100 people spamming heals? Who cares. there is no community anymore. Barely any good players to look at and say, damn i want to do what that guys doing. Theyre so few and far between. And with pve, again who cares. 90% of it can be done with minimal game knowledge. And you can get things you want without doing that other 10%. And the very few decent rewards we have can either be bought with gold, people dont care enough about, or are so far out of a casual players reach they dont care. Every thing you do in an mmo should have an appropriate reward to varying degrees.