alphawolph wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

ChairGraveyard wrote: »

As predicted, people here just want a global AH so they can give the shaft to crafters, and get 8-trait crafted gear for a handful of gold the first day of launch.

Tamriel doesn't have a Wal-Mart. Get over it.

Please explain why an AH will shaft crafters?

I'm hardly selling crafted gear at the moment because I have only 500 people to sell it too, esp the low tire stuff.

With an AH the market will open up to crafters.

I think the problem is that they can't charge high prices because they have competition.

LadyInTheWater wrote: »

Okay, here's my attempt at a compelling argument against an auction house:

A global auction house in Elder Scrolls Online, which was accessible to all players, would allow people to buy out any particular item. I'm going to use Turpen as an example, as it's the first item that comes to mind.

Let's say we have an auction house. And let's say that Turpen ranges anywhere from 500g each to 1500g each. Let's say there's a guy named Sellman. Sellman has about 3 Turpen, and he wants to know what the average price is. He asks in chat, and people say "Between 500g and 1500g". So, he decides that he wants to sell it in a good amount of time, so he lists his 3 Turpen for about 800g each.

And let's say a player, we'll call him Buyman, he has a decent handful of gold.

Buyman decides he's going to buy out as much of the Turpen as he can. He opens the global AH, and now he has access to every single Turpen listed for sale. So, he decides to buy out every Turpen that's listed, and reposts them all for 2000g each.

The next day, Sellman has 3 more Turpen. He asks "What's Turpen going for"? And people respond with "About 2000g". So, he wants to move his Turpen quickly, so he posts it for sale at 1900g each. Buyman sees this, buys out all his Turpen, and relists it for 2000g.

So, let's say I haven't logged in for a couple days. Last time I saw, Turpen was between 500g and 1500g. It still has the same "drop" rate, the rarity hasn't changed. It still does the same thing. I figure I'll log in, scrounge up 1k, and buy 2 Turpen. There should be a couple cheap ones on the AH, right? I want them for my crafting.

I go to the AH, and instead they're selling for 2000 each. In a brief amount of time, Turpen has increased in price, without increasing in rarity, nor increasing in demand.

Let's say a guy named Goldfarmer comes along. He decides he needs to make some gold. He has access to a global AH, so he knows he has access to all the Turpen being sold. He buys out all the Turpen at 2k each, and reposts them all for 4k each. Let's say his whole in-game life revolves around selling things, simply so he can make a lot of gold to "keep" (wink wink). So, he spends all day staring at the Auction House, buying out Turpen and keeping the price up. If crafters are in a situation where they'd like to purchase Turpen, it's no longer going for 500-1500g, it's now going for 4k.

Now, let's say Craftman, a blacksmith, sells swords. His usual selling price of a sword is 1000g plus the price of materials. Someone wants a blue-quality level 10 sword. Well, last week that sword's Turpen cost was as low as 2500g. Now, that sword's Turpen cost is 20,000g. 20,000g for a level 10 blue-quality sword.

So, the alternative (the system we have now):
We have guild stores. No one has 100% access to all the Turpen sold in-game. Some people overlap, and perhaps some people will still buy out items and resell them. But it won't ever be on a global scale. It doesn't completely prevent the possibility that a small handful of people could artificially cause inflation in the community, but it does mitigate it.

To accomplish the act of buying out any single product in the game, simply to relist it for profit, would require a large amount of footwork, micromanagement, and cooperation from a group of people.

So, that's my argument against a Global Auction House.

My very personal opinion, of which I have zero evidence, I believe my scenario is related to many proponents of an increase in bag size as well. It is my personal belief that many of the people asking for an auction house are also the players asking for a drastic increase in inventory/bank space. And I believe it's so they can participate in the scenario I listed above.

If someone could explain a way to wholly prevent massive buying/relisting of items on a global auction house, I would quickly change my opinion and be a supporter. As for now, that's the number 1 reason I do not want a global auction house in-game.

Mansome wrote: »

LadyInTheWater wrote: »

Okay, here's my attempt at a compelling argument against an auction house:

A global auction house in Elder Scrolls Online, which was accessible to all players, would allow people to buy out any particular item. I'm going to use Turpen as an example, as it's the first item that comes to mind.

Let's say we have an auction house. And let's say that Turpen ranges anywhere from 500g each to 1500g each. Let's say there's a guy named Sellman. Sellman has about 3 Turpen, and he wants to know what the average price is. He asks in chat, and people say "Between 500g and 1500g". So, he decides that he wants to sell it in a good amount of time, so he lists his 3 Turpen for about 800g each.

And let's say a player, we'll call him Buyman, he has a decent handful of gold.

Buyman decides he's going to buy out as much of the Turpen as he can. He opens the global AH, and now he has access to every single Turpen listed for sale. So, he decides to buy out every Turpen that's listed, and reposts them all for 2000g each.

The next day, Sellman has 3 more Turpen. He asks "What's Turpen going for"? And people respond with "About 2000g". So, he wants to move his Turpen quickly, so he posts it for sale at 1900g each. Buyman sees this, buys out all his Turpen, and relists it for 2000g.

So, let's say I haven't logged in for a couple days. Last time I saw, Turpen was between 500g and 1500g. It still has the same "drop" rate, the rarity hasn't changed. It still does the same thing. I figure I'll log in, scrounge up 1k, and buy 2 Turpen. There should be a couple cheap ones on the AH, right? I want them for my crafting.

I go to the AH, and instead they're selling for 2000 each. In a brief amount of time, Turpen has increased in price, without increasing in rarity, nor increasing in demand.

Let's say a guy named Goldfarmer comes along. He decides he needs to make some gold. He has access to a global AH, so he knows he has access to all the Turpen being sold. He buys out all the Turpen at 2k each, and reposts them all for 4k each. Let's say his whole in-game life revolves around selling things, simply so he can make a lot of gold to "keep" (wink wink). So, he spends all day staring at the Auction House, buying out Turpen and keeping the price up. If crafters are in a situation where they'd like to purchase Turpen, it's no longer going for 500-1500g, it's now going for 4k.

Now, let's say Craftman, a blacksmith, sells swords. His usual selling price of a sword is 1000g plus the price of materials. Someone wants a blue-quality level 10 sword. Well, last week that sword's Turpen cost was as low as 2500g. Now, that sword's Turpen cost is 20,000g. 20,000g for a level 10 blue-quality sword.

So, the alternative (the system we have now):
We have guild stores. No one has 100% access to all the Turpen sold in-game. Some people overlap, and perhaps some people will still buy out items and resell them. But it won't ever be on a global scale. It doesn't completely prevent the possibility that a small handful of people could artificially cause inflation in the community, but it does mitigate it.

To accomplish the act of buying out any single product in the game, simply to relist it for profit, would require a large amount of footwork, micromanagement, and cooperation from a group of people.

So, that's my argument against a Global Auction House.

My very personal opinion, of which I have zero evidence, I believe my scenario is related to many proponents of an increase in bag size as well. It is my personal belief that many of the people asking for an auction house are also the players asking for a drastic increase in inventory/bank space. And I believe it's so they can participate in the scenario I listed above.

If someone could explain a way to wholly prevent massive buying/relisting of items on a global auction house, I would quickly change my opinion and be a supporter. As for now, that's the number 1 reason I do not want a global auction house in-game.

I totally agree with you here. Its the main reason I don't want a AH. I seen how flippers destroyed the City of Heroes auction house. They had a double blind system that made this even worse. Eventually the items got to the price of the currency cap of the system. The developers eventually had to create another currency to allow the people who could not afford those prices to buy the same items from an NPC. That helped me a ton because I refused to use the AH house due to it being a cease pool of greed.

Mansome wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Mansome wrote: »

LadyInTheWater wrote: »

Okay, here's my attempt at a compelling argument against an auction house:

A global auction house in Elder Scrolls Online, which was accessible to all players, would allow people to buy out any particular item. I'm going to use Turpen as an example, as it's the first item that comes to mind.

Let's say we have an auction house. And let's say that Turpen ranges anywhere from 500g each to 1500g each. Let's say there's a guy named Sellman. Sellman has about 3 Turpen, and he wants to know what the average price is. He asks in chat, and people say "Between 500g and 1500g". So, he decides that he wants to sell it in a good amount of time, so he lists his 3 Turpen for about 800g each.

And let's say a player, we'll call him Buyman, he has a decent handful of gold.

Buyman decides he's going to buy out as much of the Turpen as he can. He opens the global AH, and now he has access to every single Turpen listed for sale. So, he decides to buy out every Turpen that's listed, and reposts them all for 2000g each.

The next day, Sellman has 3 more Turpen. He asks "What's Turpen going for"? And people respond with "About 2000g". So, he wants to move his Turpen quickly, so he posts it for sale at 1900g each. Buyman sees this, buys out all his Turpen, and relists it for 2000g.

So, let's say I haven't logged in for a couple days. Last time I saw, Turpen was between 500g and 1500g. It still has the same "drop" rate, the rarity hasn't changed. It still does the same thing. I figure I'll log in, scrounge up 1k, and buy 2 Turpen. There should be a couple cheap ones on the AH, right? I want them for my crafting.

I go to the AH, and instead they're selling for 2000 each. In a brief amount of time, Turpen has increased in price, without increasing in rarity, nor increasing in demand.

Let's say a guy named Goldfarmer comes along. He decides he needs to make some gold. He has access to a global AH, so he knows he has access to all the Turpen being sold. He buys out all the Turpen at 2k each, and reposts them all for 4k each. Let's say his whole in-game life revolves around selling things, simply so he can make a lot of gold to "keep" (wink wink). So, he spends all day staring at the Auction House, buying out Turpen and keeping the price up. If crafters are in a situation where they'd like to purchase Turpen, it's no longer going for 500-1500g, it's now going for 4k.

Now, let's say Craftman, a blacksmith, sells swords. His usual selling price of a sword is 1000g plus the price of materials. Someone wants a blue-quality level 10 sword. Well, last week that sword's Turpen cost was as low as 2500g. Now, that sword's Turpen cost is 20,000g. 20,000g for a level 10 blue-quality sword.

So, the alternative (the system we have now):
We have guild stores. No one has 100% access to all the Turpen sold in-game. Some people overlap, and perhaps some people will still buy out items and resell them. But it won't ever be on a global scale. It doesn't completely prevent the possibility that a small handful of people could artificially cause inflation in the community, but it does mitigate it.

To accomplish the act of buying out any single product in the game, simply to relist it for profit, would require a large amount of footwork, micromanagement, and cooperation from a group of people.

So, that's my argument against a Global Auction House.

My very personal opinion, of which I have zero evidence, I believe my scenario is related to many proponents of an increase in bag size as well. It is my personal belief that many of the people asking for an auction house are also the players asking for a drastic increase in inventory/bank space. And I believe it's so they can participate in the scenario I listed above.

If someone could explain a way to wholly prevent massive buying/relisting of items on a global auction house, I would quickly change my opinion and be a supporter. As for now, that's the number 1 reason I do not want a global auction house in-game.

I totally agree with you here. Its the main reason I don't want a AH. I seen how flippers destroyed the City of Heroes auction house. They had a double blind system that made this even worse. Eventually the items got to the price of the currency cap of the system. The developers eventually had to create another currency to allow the people who could not afford those prices to buy the same items from an NPC. That helped me a ton because I refused to use the AH house due to it being a cease pool of greed.

All of this is pure supposition and not based on any hard evidence. The likelihood of this happening across the board is slim. Yes there will be resellers, yes there are exploiters but people will only pay what they are prepared to pay, what they see as being the relative value of an item. No-one will ever pay more than what they are willing to pay so the argument above totally falls down.

If any one person is able to entirely buy-up any single commodity and manipulate the price and people pay for it then this is the net worth of that item.

It's all total supposition and not taking into account the real and genuine advantages of an open AH.

I don't think you realize how easy this is to do and how it leads to more people feeling that they need to buy gold from gold sellers. If you do not think its possible then you really haven't looked at how AH are in MMOs.

Opioid wrote: »

Mansome wrote: »

I don't think you realize how easy this is to do and how it leads to more people feeling that they need to buy gold from gold sellers. If you do not think its possible then you really haven't looked at how AH are in MMOs.

I don't think you realize that people already feel like they need to buy from gold sellers. Look at the cost of horses, cost of repair bills, cost of bag slot and bank slot upgrades. Having an AH has very little impact on how many people are buying gold from gold sellers. If someone feels like it's a better investment of their time and money to buy gold from a gold seller instead of earning it using normal means in game, they're going to do it. Existence of an AH has nothing to do with it.

The advantage of having a large server/faction based auction house is the ability for common goods to settle on a standard market price. Rare goods can and will always command a higher price, whether someone is trying to manipulate the market or not.

One of the biggest arguments I hear from people is that a larger market will mean that everything is more expensive. That is simply not true. The reality is that the fancy rare items they want to buy for cheap will be more expensive than they are willing to pay.

Common items, like green items, raw and refined ore, wood and cloth, provisioning and alchemy ingredients, glyphs and runes will all be part of a more competitive market. People will undercut each other until it is no longer worth the effort to undercut and sell at a loss and the market for that item will stabilize. These items with huge amounts of supply will maintain a low price due to ease of acquisition and huge number of potential sellers.

Rarer items like Motifs, Blue/purple/gold gear and upgrade mats, rare provisioning/alchemy ingredients, rare enchanting runes etc. will all naturally command a higher price because of their relative rarity and the demand for such items. And that's good, rare items should be rare and should cost more. Low supply and high demand for a product holds up the prices of rare items and helps maintain a healthy economy.

With such small markets that we have right now, it is way too easy for someone to manipulate the supply of such items in a guild store and control the entire market. Even worse is that most players within these little guild store markets probably would have no idea they're getting ripped off since they have no way to determine what the going market value of an item is due to the lack of a larger market to consult. I can guarantee that the vast majority of players are only members of one or two "trade guilds", if any at all. I would bet that an even smaller percentage of those players actually bother to do any kind of price research across the guild stores of all of the guilds of which they are a member. With a larger market, despite the rarity of the item, there are significantly more potential sellers making it more difficult for someone to corner the market as they have far more competition trying to undercut their business.

Then you also have the old argument of "caveat emptor" a.k.a. "Let the buyer beware" which applies perfectly here. With a server-wide market, people will be able to view current market prices for items and can identify whether or not something is selling too low or too high. If a buyer is willing to overpay because they want something immediately or is too oblivious to the market to do any research, then they'll end up overpaying and they deserve to overpay. If a buyer can identify an overly high price, they can then choose not to pay it. If enough people refuse to pay overly high prices, that kills the demand for the item and the sellers will re-list it at a lower price. No one wants to sit on a stock of items set at absurd prices and never sell anything at all. You can't make money if you aren't selling your inventory.

Mansome wrote: »

I guess what I am saying instead of supply and demand naturally doing its thing that won't happen if we let flippers have their way. They can and will buy up stuff just to sit on it to make said item appear to be more rare than what it is. Essentially creating a supply shortage instead of just letting it be as rare as it needs to be. I rather they be totally sold out than for some *** sitting on a mass of mats letting them go for insane prices when they have no intention to use the items to make something.

Mansome wrote: »

methjester wrote: »

Mansome wrote: »

I guess what I am saying instead of supply and demand naturally doing its thing that won't happen if we let flippers have their way. They can and will buy up stuff just to sit on it to make said item appear to be more rare than what it is. Essentially creating a supply shortage instead of just letting it be as rare as it needs to be. I rather they be totally sold out than for some *** sitting on a mass of mats letting them go for insane prices when they have no intention to use the items to make something.

If you have to resort to "flippers will buy everything" and jack up the entire auction house, you've run out of realistic arguments.

Let them try. I, you, and wee will just get more to sell, there is too much supply.

As I said before, its happened in other games and it can just as easily happen here. Why is this so hard to understand? Bots and flippers will find a way. Once the damage is done thats it, there is no going back from that.

methjester wrote: »

Mansome wrote: »

methjester wrote: »

Mansome wrote: »

I guess what I am saying instead of supply and demand naturally doing its thing that won't happen if we let flippers have their way. They can and will buy up stuff just to sit on it to make said item appear to be more rare than what it is. Essentially creating a supply shortage instead of just letting it be as rare as it needs to be. I rather they be totally sold out than for some *** sitting on a mass of mats letting them go for insane prices when they have no intention to use the items to make something.

If you have to resort to "flippers will buy everything" and jack up the entire auction house, you've run out of realistic arguments.

Let them try. I, you, and wee will just get more to sell, there is too much supply.

As I said before, its happened in other games and it can just as easily happen here. Why is this so hard to understand? Bots and flippers will find a way. Once the damage is done thats it, there is no going back from that.

It doesn't, and won't, I've never seen it happen, but keep on believing. And even if it does and your Christmastime nightmare becomes reality... WONDERFUL!!! At least I will have a place to buy stuff.

Right now I have the local five and dime with an interface that would look bad in one of the 80's AD&D Amiga games.

Gillysan wrote: »

Lot's of lazy losers here. Sorry, but calling it like I see it. Trade is much more livelier and trading is more an activity in the game. This games system forced me into using zone chat more. I have made a lot of money in zone chat and I don't participate in the market all that much.

methjester wrote: »

Gillysan wrote: »

Lot's of lazy losers here. Sorry, but calling it like I see it. Trade is much more livelier and trading is more an activity in the game. This games system forced me into using zone chat more. I have made a lot of money in zone chat and I don't participate in the market all that much.

So. You're under level 50, don't use zone shouts to buy and sell much... and yet you feel the need to say no to something you admittedly have no use for. Constructive.

Allyah wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

Gillysan wrote: »

http://esomerchants.org/item-database/

A little research instead of whining goes a long way.

Any game that forces you to use outside resources because their own are incomplete is in serious trouble.

A game is in trouble if someone has to alt tab and google search? Seems like a pretty big assumption.