Dungeon Finder found dead in a hotel in Vivec City

Lozeenge · October 2023

complaint thread time

after a while of using Dungeon Finder during U39 i honestly believe that the fake role phenomenon and all the community issues it brought with it (amongst some other irrelevant issues with the game i guess) is going to render the tool obsolete if the launch of Group Finder is a success. this thread is not advocating to remove Dungeon Finder for ANY reason, because frankly i do not wish to become another armchair developer for ZoS, but it's in a really bad spot right now and introducing another activity manager is looking more like an evasive move from the ongoing problems with the current system, as opposed to something that just aims to help players find the content they want to do.

the overall dungeoneer experience leading up to Undaunted Celebration 2023 has been the worst it has ever been, regardless if you are looking for normal or veteran content. the amount of players between the three group roles have grown more disproportionate, not only because "tanks get faster queues" but because a lot of players who frequently play tank (or healer) are just NOT willing to use Dungeon Finder, or at least has no incentive to do so, when most of the time they have to deal with other players who at best are at the lower end of the game's Grand Canyon sized skill gap, and at worst are just not very nice people to interact with in general!

it's one thing where DPS queues as a fake tank to get into dungeons faster, but it's another thing entirely when there aren't any tanks to begin with. and this has unfortunately only snowballed from there. lots of fake tanks would end up porting into a DLC dungeon, go "wait i'm not an actual tank, i don't want to do this!" and immediately abandon the group to eat a half-hour penalty, an amount of time they would've had to sit through anyway if they decided to queue as a damage-dealer. this is especially egregious on random normals, where the vast majority of DLC dungeons are significantly toned down in difficulty from veteran and should be no problem for someone who believed that they can play a dungeon without a tank, but i guess skill issue lmfao. as an experienced player this hasn't affected me a whole lot, but i know this is harmful for newer players who are always inhabiting random normal dungeons. it's setting a bad precedent for PvE as a whole.

this is something that plagued this year's Undaunted event with players wanting to farm dungeons as quick as possible for coffers (when nFG1 was still perfectly farmable on solo with a competent build), and has continue plaguing the overall dungeon experience. i shouldn't be the one being punished for playing the intended role of my characters, but on worse days it definitely feels like it. the new Group Finder was something we were all waiting on for a long time now, but unfortunately i believe that anticipation was because of increasing fatigue from the nightmare machine that is Dungeon Finder.

i'm finished venting, but my only question is this: if Group Finder ends up being a working & useful tool, then what of the Dungeon Finder? if my experience with finding dungeon groups using that will be overall better than having to deal with the cesspit that is random dungeons, especially when premade groups can still do randoms to receive daily rewards anyway, then are there any more incentives for matchmaking dungeons anymore? it can't possibly be convenience, because i think we can all agree that with its current state it's anything but "convenient."

Necrotech_Master · October 2023

i personally only ever even use the dungeon queue if im playing a tank lol

i dont fake role if im getting a random group

and i would use the dungeon queue before trying to set up a group finder thing because its faster to just go straight to the queue instead of waiting for people to join your group and then queue

i see the group finder being used for a lot of non-dungeon related activities that currently dont have a queue (trials, arenas, or overland event help (WBs, harrows, bastion nymic, etc), or it will be used for dungeons, but to pre-form groups for vet dungeons (like achievement hunting group, etc)

Lozeenge · October 2023

i should've prefaced that we don't really know what to expect from the Group Finder or how it will play alongside everything else currently in the game. every online multiplayer game is going to offer a different player experience to everyone in one way or another. this thread is just a cope more than anything (i already admitted that in op) but i feel like Group Finder's only a thing because of the recent poor feedback from Dungeon Finder, and creating a similar matchmaking tool for things like trials wouldn't be the best idea.

chessalavakia_ESO · October 2023

Yes, it's likely the Group Finder will make the Dungeon Finder experience worse if it works for that but, I doubt it will actually work for very long.

Fundamentally, the audience that Group Finders pull in are people that lack the social position to get into a better group that desire to be in a better group than what the matchmaker provides them.

Generally speaking, a portion of them lack the social position for a reason. Either they aren't all that good or they aren't all the fun to be around or both.

What I think will likely happen is the Group Finder will see a surge of activity at first but, gradually players will start having bad runs using it because some of the audience it pulls in will not be the people that those are doing it will want to play with and they will give up on it because the quality of a fair portion of the runs isn't going to be any better than the Dungeon Finder and the time cost will be higher. The more players the finder bleeds the longer it takes to find a group and the longer it takes people to find a group the less the finder is worth using leading to more bleeding. I'd expect by the time a month or two passes dungeon wise it will just be down to just a few groups for dungeons much of the time.

Braffin · October 2023

@chessalavakia_ESO I totally agree and also don't expect the upcoming group finder to solve communication problems. That's why I don't think this is the solution to "fake roles" and differently-paced group speed some players are around here are looking for.

Additionally you still have to use dungeon finder to earn those shiny transmutes, so I expect an unchanged and healthy population over there.

Group finder will be helpful outside of dungeons tho: Everything from WBs to trials will be easier to organzie, especially for players which are already used to grouping actively.

Kusto · October 2023

The current dungeon finder is mainly used to get the daily xp and transmutes. People who doing pledges or wanna get achievements are generally pre-made from guilds or friends. The new group finder can be used for that as well. But no one's gonna give up the best and fastest xp and transmutes. So the dungeon finder + fake roles will still be used for that.

Soarora · October 2023

I actually think the group finder might make the dungeon finder better. Real supports don't like to use the dungeon finder, but they might use the group finder. Get a random real tank and a random real DPS together and they might queue and make the experience better. Can also just make your team of 4 then queue random to make sure you get the roles you want. Personally, I will probably abandon random vet for group finder (outside of when I need transmute, I usually do random vet to fill in for other people, which I can do more organized with joining via group finder) but not the queue (I queue specifics if I feel like doing my favorite dungeons, get a quest, w/e).
We won't know the real impact though until it happens and the dust settles.

svendf · October 2023

I have alway´s been positive on the new group finder we will get in U40. Though Im not naiv. Why did we get it ? ZoS know there is big issues in dungeons across the board - both vet and norm.

So! Not to get into a situation, where they have to do a total overhaul of dungeons and "roles" they give us this tool.

More directly said. We know there are problems. There are not going to be a total overhaul to solve issues. Here is a tool you have asked for, now solve it yourself. It reminds me a bit of the forced joining in dungeons, doesn´t matter if you are at quest dialog or a chest - some will not get their skillpoint anyway.

Eso is a Mmo for DD´s and run by DD´s. ZoS need to change strategy, and make all roles equal important in all dungeon content.

Back to the group finder arriving in U40. Will it solve issues Eso have right now ? My own answere will be. Sometimes it will, Sometimes not at all. Sometimes people may have to be reminded of, what role they que as.

Im looking forward to, where all this ends.

peacenote · October 2023

Based solely on these two threads (as I don't have time for PTS at the moment to try myself):

https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/64897
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/643312/pts-update-40-feedback-thread-for-group-finder#latest

I think Dungeon Finder will still have its place and generally dominate for dungeons.

The first reason I think this is because the feedback chain for the group finder on PTS is very short. 14 replies, 971 views. Compare to 305 replies and 15.3K views for the New Class Sets. (At the time that I started writing this.)

The second reason I think this is because of the screenshot in the news article, which seems to be showing that role selection is still limited to one for all of the "finder" content. Between the Armory and the wide variety of content out there, this seems very short-sighted. I see something in one of the PTS comments about being able to remove role requirements as the group leader, but nothing about multiple roles as a group participant. I might want to be in queue for a dungeon to DPS while being willing to heal in a Trial once it finds 12 people. That said, I could be wrong because I haven't tested.

But that takes me to my final point. I have said before that the hardest role in a trial is not the tank but the group leader. Coordinating between people, accepting, rejecting, balancing, giving instructions, etc.... not a lot of people want to be in that role. So, if the success of group finder hinges on group leaders making groups for people to find, it is NOT the same as dungeon finder, which works by taking four individual participants coming together without anyone choosing to be a leader. This is an important distinction.

And why Dungeon Finder likely has nothing to worry about.