sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I highly disagree. As i previously meantioned vhrc hm is harder for groups to tackle then vmol hm. That was never the intention. When mol was released it was capital h Hard. The dps back then made it so you couldnt skip mechanics. Do you understand that few raid groups even go for DD anymore? That you get nothing for a no death?

I do understand, because I am both one of the PC raid leads who still leads DD runs, and someone who (separately) sells carries for them. I also have all achievements in vMoL.

Which by the way is the only actually difficult achievement in there which is why most groups just skip it. That is specifically why one of my leads teaches it. It has some of the best and most unique mechanics in the entire game and most people never even see it. Skipping mechs doesnt mean you have come far. It means you will be ill prepared for the mandatory mechanics and organization of the following trials. Ive seen it over and over from even more experienced players. They dont know how to move as a group, how to organize where they stand, dont know add priorities, dont know how to deal with multiple mechanics, they dont know how to deal with more complex portal mechanics..

Then they have bad raid leads. A good lead will explain as they go, tell them where to stack, etc. Even in a 3 pad vMoL HM, if you don't stand in the right spot and kite the meteors and unstable void out of group, you will wipe the group.

there are no dps checks in mol beyond the soft check at the first boss, in later trials there very much is..

Each DD must do approximately 65K+ DPS single target on Rakkhat to do a pad 3 burn (not sure of the exact # after the update 35 or whatever it was boss HP nerf). This is a DPS check, and there are plenty of people who aren't capable of it.

and then they get into vet cloudrest and feel like they were hit with a brick. Mol is the absolute perfect place to learn these things but bc people can skip 85 percent of it they never learn.

This only applies if MoL is one of the first trials they do. It often isn't. These days new raiders go for whatever trial they can get rostered in first. Their first trial only has about an 8% chance of being vMoL. So why is it necessary that vMoL needs to be buffed to be hard so they can "learn how to play mechanics" when the reality is they're far more likely to do a later trial first and then circle back to MoL?

Im not suggesting it be "as hard" as later trials, im suggesting that the dps shouldnt prevent you from learning the mechs well and it very much is.

DPS allows you to skip mechs in pretty much every trial. Why should MoL be the exception? The only one I can't speak to is DSR HM because I have the least experience there, but I've used high damage to skip portions or the entirety of mechs in literally every other trial (it's really easy, if damage is high enough, to have a boss just not finish summoning adds so you skip some of them entirely in some HMs - Oax, Bahsei, Lokke, Nahvi (statues, portal skips), Cloudrest (0 portal, gal skips), vAS (mini skips), Yandir (gryphon skip).

Sure, the people who invented those strats learned the mechs, but later groups of players have built on that and the newest raiders don't see any of the earlier mechs that had to be played. That's just progression. At some point Sanity's Edge will have that too.

Ialso dont see why hard mode being up to par affects new raiders. They should not be doing hard modes anyway. They arent designed for newbies, they are designed for experienced players with an excellent grasp of mechanics.

Honestly, saying new players have no right to be doing hard modes makes you sound elitist. If they have the skill, coordination, and damage, why shouldn't they?

I have raided with a LOT of people over the years, from an 80 year old grandpa to literally the very best players in the world, in casual runs and sweaty runs and everything in between. There are people who've only been playing for a few months who are more than ready for hard modes. There are people who will never be ready.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I highly disagree. As i previously meantioned vhrc hm is harder for groups to tackle then vmol hm. That was never the intention. When mol was released it was capital h Hard. The dps back then made it so you couldnt skip mechanics. Do you understand that few raid groups even go for DD anymore? That you get nothing for a no death?

I do understand, because I am both one of the PC raid leads who still leads DD runs, and someone who (separately) sells carries for them. I also have all achievements in vMoL.

Which by the way is the only actually difficult achievement in there which is why most groups just skip it. That is specifically why one of my leads teaches it. It has some of the best and most unique mechanics in the entire game and most people never even see it. Skipping mechs doesnt mean you have come far. It means you will be ill prepared for the mandatory mechanics and organization of the following trials. Ive seen it over and over from even more experienced players. They dont know how to move as a group, how to organize where they stand, dont know add priorities, dont know how to deal with multiple mechanics, they dont know how to deal with more complex portal mechanics..

Then they have bad raid leads. A good lead will explain as they go, tell them where to stack, etc. Even in a 3 pad vMoL HM, if you don't stand in the right spot and kite the meteors and unstable void out of group, you will wipe the group.

there are no dps checks in mol beyond the soft check at the first boss, in later trials there very much is..

Each DD must do approximately 65K+ DPS single target on Rakkhat to do a pad 3 burn (not sure of the exact # after the update 35 or whatever it was boss HP nerf). This is a DPS check, and there are plenty of people who aren't capable of it.

and then they get into vet cloudrest and feel like they were hit with a brick. Mol is the absolute perfect place to learn these things but bc people can skip 85 percent of it they never learn.

This only applies if MoL is one of the first trials they do. It often isn't. These days new raiders go for whatever trial they can get rostered in first. Their first trial only has about an 8% chance of being vMoL. So why is it necessary that vMoL needs to be buffed to be hard so they can "learn how to play mechanics" when the reality is they're far more likely to do a later trial first and then circle back to MoL?

Im not suggesting it be "as hard" as later trials, im suggesting that the dps shouldnt prevent you from learning the mechs well and it very much is.

DPS allows you to skip mechs in pretty much every trial. Why should MoL be the exception? The only one I can't speak to is DSR HM because I have the least experience there, but I've used high damage to skip portions or the entirety of mechs in literally every other trial (it's really easy, if damage is high enough, to have a boss just not finish summoning adds so you skip some of them entirely in some HMs - Oax, Bahsei, Lokke, Nahvi (statues, portal skips), Cloudrest (0 portal, gal skips), vAS (mini skips), Yandir (gryphon skip).

Sure, the people who invented those strats learned the mechs, but later groups of players have built on that and the newest raiders don't see any of the earlier mechs that had to be played. That's just progression. At some point Sanity's Edge will have that too.

Ialso dont see why hard mode being up to par affects new raiders. They should not be doing hard modes anyway. They arent designed for newbies, they are designed for experienced players with an excellent grasp of mechanics.

Honestly, saying new players have no right to be doing hard modes makes you sound elitist. If they have the skill, coordination, and damage, why shouldn't they?

I have raided with a LOT of people over the years, from an 80 year old grandpa to literally the very best players in the world, in casual runs and sweaty runs and everything in between. There are people who've only been playing for a few months who are more than ready for hard modes. There are people who will never be ready.

If they have skill, coordination, raid awareness, and dps they arent new players. Period.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I highly disagree. As i previously meantioned vhrc hm is harder for groups to tackle then vmol hm. That was never the intention. When mol was released it was capital h Hard. The dps back then made it so you couldnt skip mechanics. Do you understand that few raid groups even go for DD anymore? That you get nothing for a no death?

I do understand, because I am both one of the PC raid leads who still leads DD runs, and someone who (separately) sells carries for them. I also have all achievements in vMoL.

Which by the way is the only actually difficult achievement in there which is why most groups just skip it. That is specifically why one of my leads teaches it. It has some of the best and most unique mechanics in the entire game and most people never even see it. Skipping mechs doesnt mean you have come far. It means you will be ill prepared for the mandatory mechanics and organization of the following trials. Ive seen it over and over from even more experienced players. They dont know how to move as a group, how to organize where they stand, dont know add priorities, dont know how to deal with multiple mechanics, they dont know how to deal with more complex portal mechanics..

Then they have bad raid leads. A good lead will explain as they go, tell them where to stack, etc. Even in a 3 pad vMoL HM, if you don't stand in the right spot and kite the meteors and unstable void out of group, you will wipe the group.

there are no dps checks in mol beyond the soft check at the first boss, in later trials there very much is..

Each DD must do approximately 65K+ DPS single target on Rakkhat to do a pad 3 burn (not sure of the exact # after the update 35 or whatever it was boss HP nerf). This is a DPS check, and there are plenty of people who aren't capable of it.

and then they get into vet cloudrest and feel like they were hit with a brick. Mol is the absolute perfect place to learn these things but bc people can skip 85 percent of it they never learn.

This only applies if MoL is one of the first trials they do. It often isn't. These days new raiders go for whatever trial they can get rostered in first. Their first trial only has about an 8% chance of being vMoL. So why is it necessary that vMoL needs to be buffed to be hard so they can "learn how to play mechanics" when the reality is they're far more likely to do a later trial first and then circle back to MoL?

Im not suggesting it be "as hard" as later trials, im suggesting that the dps shouldnt prevent you from learning the mechs well and it very much is.

DPS allows you to skip mechs in pretty much every trial. Why should MoL be the exception? The only one I can't speak to is DSR HM because I have the least experience there, but I've used high damage to skip portions or the entirety of mechs in literally every other trial (it's really easy, if damage is high enough, to have a boss just not finish summoning adds so you skip some of them entirely in some HMs - Oax, Bahsei, Lokke, Nahvi (statues, portal skips), Cloudrest (0 portal, gal skips), vAS (mini skips), Yandir (gryphon skip).

Sure, the people who invented those strats learned the mechs, but later groups of players have built on that and the newest raiders don't see any of the earlier mechs that had to be played. That's just progression. At some point Sanity's Edge will have that too.

Ialso dont see why hard mode being up to par affects new raiders. They should not be doing hard modes anyway. They arent designed for newbies, they are designed for experienced players with an excellent grasp of mechanics.

Honestly, saying new players have no right to be doing hard modes makes you sound elitist. If they have the skill, coordination, and damage, why shouldn't they?

I have raided with a LOT of people over the years, from an 80 year old grandpa to literally the very best players in the world, in casual runs and sweaty runs and everything in between. There are people who've only been playing for a few months who are more than ready for hard modes. There are people who will never be ready.

If they have skill, coordination, raid awareness, and dps they arent new players. Period.

Got ttt about a month back with someone who'd only been playing ESO for 2 months. It was a 3 day prog and the first 2 days were the tanks learning how to manage the triplets. So what defines a new player, then?

Thats a incredibly rare scenario. Acting like it isn't is super disingenuous. Even i know one or 2 people like that. One guy i know had gh at 800cp. The overwhelming majority do not step foot in a trial and just know how to do it.

We arent talking about prodigies here. We are talking about your average new player and you know that.

sarahthes wrote: »

It is far easier now to get GH than it was a few years ago, and the times are getting much faster.

So yes, old content getting easier also applies to Cloudrest.

Kyne's is kind of an outlier in trial difficulty compares to the rest tho. I'd rank it right after vHoF HM in terms of difficulty even when it was brand new.

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I highly disagree. As i previously meantioned vhrc hm is harder for groups to tackle then vmol hm. That was never the intention. When mol was released it was capital h Hard. The dps back then made it so you couldnt skip mechanics. Do you understand that few raid groups even go for DD anymore? That you get nothing for a no death?

I do understand, because I am both one of the PC raid leads who still leads DD runs, and someone who (separately) sells carries for them. I also have all achievements in vMoL.

Which by the way is the only actually difficult achievement in there which is why most groups just skip it. That is specifically why one of my leads teaches it. It has some of the best and most unique mechanics in the entire game and most people never even see it. Skipping mechs doesnt mean you have come far. It means you will be ill prepared for the mandatory mechanics and organization of the following trials. Ive seen it over and over from even more experienced players. They dont know how to move as a group, how to organize where they stand, dont know add priorities, dont know how to deal with multiple mechanics, they dont know how to deal with more complex portal mechanics..

Then they have bad raid leads. A good lead will explain as they go, tell them where to stack, etc. Even in a 3 pad vMoL HM, if you don't stand in the right spot and kite the meteors and unstable void out of group, you will wipe the group.

there are no dps checks in mol beyond the soft check at the first boss, in later trials there very much is..

Each DD must do approximately 65K+ DPS single target on Rakkhat to do a pad 3 burn (not sure of the exact # after the update 35 or whatever it was boss HP nerf). This is a DPS check, and there are plenty of people who aren't capable of it.

and then they get into vet cloudrest and feel like they were hit with a brick. Mol is the absolute perfect place to learn these things but bc people can skip 85 percent of it they never learn.

This only applies if MoL is one of the first trials they do. It often isn't. These days new raiders go for whatever trial they can get rostered in first. Their first trial only has about an 8% chance of being vMoL. So why is it necessary that vMoL needs to be buffed to be hard so they can "learn how to play mechanics" when the reality is they're far more likely to do a later trial first and then circle back to MoL?

Im not suggesting it be "as hard" as later trials, im suggesting that the dps shouldnt prevent you from learning the mechs well and it very much is.

DPS allows you to skip mechs in pretty much every trial. Why should MoL be the exception? The only one I can't speak to is DSR HM because I have the least experience there, but I've used high damage to skip portions or the entirety of mechs in literally every other trial (it's really easy, if damage is high enough, to have a boss just not finish summoning adds so you skip some of them entirely in some HMs - Oax, Bahsei, Lokke, Nahvi (statues, portal skips), Cloudrest (0 portal, gal skips), vAS (mini skips), Yandir (gryphon skip).

Sure, the people who invented those strats learned the mechs, but later groups of players have built on that and the newest raiders don't see any of the earlier mechs that had to be played. That's just progression. At some point Sanity's Edge will have that too.

Ialso dont see why hard mode being up to par affects new raiders. They should not be doing hard modes anyway. They arent designed for newbies, they are designed for experienced players with an excellent grasp of mechanics.

Honestly, saying new players have no right to be doing hard modes makes you sound elitist. If they have the skill, coordination, and damage, why shouldn't they?

I have raided with a LOT of people over the years, from an 80 year old grandpa to literally the very best players in the world, in casual runs and sweaty runs and everything in between. There are people who've only been playing for a few months who are more than ready for hard modes. There are people who will never be ready.

If they have skill, coordination, raid awareness, and dps they arent new players. Period.

Got ttt about a month back with someone who'd only been playing ESO for 2 months. It was a 3 day prog and the first 2 days were the tanks learning how to manage the triplets. So what defines a new player, then?

Thats a incredibly rare scenario. Acting like it isn't is super disingenuous. Even i know one or 2 people like that. One guy i know had gh at 800cp. The overwhelming majority do not step foot in a trial and just know how to do it.

We arent talking about prodigies here. We are talking about your average new player and you know that.

Some people are just driven towards endgame. This player wasn't particularly amazing. He was just interested and invested (and willing to spend time grinding out gear, LOL).

I still think gating access to HMs behind some arbitrary "experience" level is wrong. It's why I removed rank requirements for signing up for raids in my discord. And the reason I think it's wrong is because the endgame community is so small already (even if you broaden it to include HMs, not just trifectas and scorepushing), we need all the new blood we can get.

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

The problem here is that we come from utterly different schools of thought on how to approach this. I believe in preparing players for the content they want to play. If I do ss with a player and they perform incredibly well i will have no qualms bringing them into an hm with my group but i would never bring someone who had never seen the content into that situation. Ive seen to many people get utterly overwhelmed and not want to try it again.

The problem is you haven't presented anything like a coherent argument, and won't listen to anyone except yourself about anything. "VMoL hardmode needs to be harder" Why? Because it's too easy for you?

Don't try and pretend this is anything except arbitrary gatekeeping of 6 year old content.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Actually, regarding vCR HM, I got my clear with a lead who at the time considered +2 unnecessary and would jump people into HM if they had their +1s done.

. The thing with Cloudrest is, it relies on individual raid awareness almost more than group coordination. It's a different type of progression than earlier trials, and the skills needed are quite different. As far as I'm concerned, only Cloudrest prepares you for Cloudrest.

I've done open vKA HMs that have cleared, where over half the roster had no prior clear.

I think maybe the reason we are disagreeing is because we have very different experience with raiding and the communities we raid in are very different. I don't know. I just think the slope isn't as steep as you think it is as long as progression follows a fairly sensible path.

But you did +1? With each mini? Thats experience with the content. With vcr that is normal and there is a very simple reason why. The minis are sequential, you dont take them all at the same time as you would in vas. If you can do plus 1 with all of them individually, competently then you are just doing them in order back to back.

I think you are right about one thing, we definitely come from different experiences. I have helped folks clear who worked at it for months in some content. It is so incredibly rare that i see anyone who is just good out of the gate and to be perfectly honest- i prefer working with those people who arent. Its great to help people who may not be amazing in 3 days learn their classes, develop awareness, learn how to work with a team and create relationships with their teammates. One our teams has a guy who is probably 70. Really didnt understand anything, came in wanting to learn. It took a long time but he became very competent in his role. Our leads took the time to mentor him just as they have every member of our team. Id rather do that 1000% then instantly clear an open hm with a few innately amazing players.