Request: give Maw of Lorkhaj a trifecta achievement

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I highly disagree. As i previously meantioned vhrc hm is harder for groups to tackle then vmol hm. That was never the intention. When mol was released it was capital h Hard. The dps back then made it so you couldnt skip mechanics. Do you understand that few raid groups even go for DD anymore? That you get nothing for a no death?

I do understand, because I am both one of the PC raid leads who still leads DD runs, and someone who (separately) sells carries for them. I also have all achievements in vMoL.

Which by the way is the only actually difficult achievement in there which is why most groups just skip it. That is specifically why one of my leads teaches it. It has some of the best and most unique mechanics in the entire game and most people never even see it. Skipping mechs doesnt mean you have come far. It means you will be ill prepared for the mandatory mechanics and organization of the following trials. Ive seen it over and over from even more experienced players. They dont know how to move as a group, how to organize where they stand, dont know add priorities, dont know how to deal with multiple mechanics, they dont know how to deal with more complex portal mechanics..

Then they have bad raid leads. A good lead will explain as they go, tell them where to stack, etc. Even in a 3 pad vMoL HM, if you don't stand in the right spot and kite the meteors and unstable void out of group, you will wipe the group.

there are no dps checks in mol beyond the soft check at the first boss, in later trials there very much is..

Each DD must do approximately 65K+ DPS single target on Rakkhat to do a pad 3 burn (not sure of the exact # after the update 35 or whatever it was boss HP nerf). This is a DPS check, and there are plenty of people who aren't capable of it.

and then they get into vet cloudrest and feel like they were hit with a brick. Mol is the absolute perfect place to learn these things but bc people can skip 85 percent of it they never learn.

This only applies if MoL is one of the first trials they do. It often isn't. These days new raiders go for whatever trial they can get rostered in first. Their first trial only has about an 8% chance of being vMoL. So why is it necessary that vMoL needs to be buffed to be hard so they can "learn how to play mechanics" when the reality is they're far more likely to do a later trial first and then circle back to MoL?

Im not suggesting it be "as hard" as later trials, im suggesting that the dps shouldnt prevent you from learning the mechs well and it very much is.

DPS allows you to skip mechs in pretty much every trial. Why should MoL be the exception? The only one I can't speak to is DSR HM because I have the least experience there, but I've used high damage to skip portions or the entirety of mechs in literally every other trial (it's really easy, if damage is high enough, to have a boss just not finish summoning adds so you skip some of them entirely in some HMs - Oax, Bahsei, Lokke, Nahvi (statues, portal skips), Cloudrest (0 portal, gal skips), vAS (mini skips), Yandir (gryphon skip).

Sure, the people who invented those strats learned the mechs, but later groups of players have built on that and the newest raiders don't see any of the earlier mechs that had to be played. That's just progression. At some point Sanity's Edge will have that too.

Ialso dont see why hard mode being up to par affects new raiders. They should not be doing hard modes anyway. They arent designed for newbies, they are designed for experienced players with an excellent grasp of mechanics.

Honestly, saying new players have no right to be doing hard modes makes you sound elitist. If they have the skill, coordination, and damage, why shouldn't they?

I have raided with a LOT of people over the years, from an 80 year old grandpa to literally the very best players in the world, in casual runs and sweaty runs and everything in between. There are people who've only been playing for a few months who are more than ready for hard modes. There are people who will never be ready.

If they have skill, coordination, raid awareness, and dps they arent new players. Period.

sarahthes · September 2023

It is far easier now to get GH than it was a few years ago, and the times are getting much faster.

So yes, old content getting easier also applies to Cloudrest.

Kyne's is kind of an outlier in trial difficulty compares to the rest tho. I'd rank it right after vHoF HM in terms of difficulty even when it was brand new.

sarahthes · September 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I highly disagree. As i previously meantioned vhrc hm is harder for groups to tackle then vmol hm. That was never the intention. When mol was released it was capital h Hard. The dps back then made it so you couldnt skip mechanics. Do you understand that few raid groups even go for DD anymore? That you get nothing for a no death?

I do understand, because I am both one of the PC raid leads who still leads DD runs, and someone who (separately) sells carries for them. I also have all achievements in vMoL.

Which by the way is the only actually difficult achievement in there which is why most groups just skip it. That is specifically why one of my leads teaches it. It has some of the best and most unique mechanics in the entire game and most people never even see it. Skipping mechs doesnt mean you have come far. It means you will be ill prepared for the mandatory mechanics and organization of the following trials. Ive seen it over and over from even more experienced players. They dont know how to move as a group, how to organize where they stand, dont know add priorities, dont know how to deal with multiple mechanics, they dont know how to deal with more complex portal mechanics..

Then they have bad raid leads. A good lead will explain as they go, tell them where to stack, etc. Even in a 3 pad vMoL HM, if you don't stand in the right spot and kite the meteors and unstable void out of group, you will wipe the group.

there are no dps checks in mol beyond the soft check at the first boss, in later trials there very much is..

Each DD must do approximately 65K+ DPS single target on Rakkhat to do a pad 3 burn (not sure of the exact # after the update 35 or whatever it was boss HP nerf). This is a DPS check, and there are plenty of people who aren't capable of it.

and then they get into vet cloudrest and feel like they were hit with a brick. Mol is the absolute perfect place to learn these things but bc people can skip 85 percent of it they never learn.

This only applies if MoL is one of the first trials they do. It often isn't. These days new raiders go for whatever trial they can get rostered in first. Their first trial only has about an 8% chance of being vMoL. So why is it necessary that vMoL needs to be buffed to be hard so they can "learn how to play mechanics" when the reality is they're far more likely to do a later trial first and then circle back to MoL?

Im not suggesting it be "as hard" as later trials, im suggesting that the dps shouldnt prevent you from learning the mechs well and it very much is.

DPS allows you to skip mechs in pretty much every trial. Why should MoL be the exception? The only one I can't speak to is DSR HM because I have the least experience there, but I've used high damage to skip portions or the entirety of mechs in literally every other trial (it's really easy, if damage is high enough, to have a boss just not finish summoning adds so you skip some of them entirely in some HMs - Oax, Bahsei, Lokke, Nahvi (statues, portal skips), Cloudrest (0 portal, gal skips), vAS (mini skips), Yandir (gryphon skip).

Sure, the people who invented those strats learned the mechs, but later groups of players have built on that and the newest raiders don't see any of the earlier mechs that had to be played. That's just progression. At some point Sanity's Edge will have that too.

Ialso dont see why hard mode being up to par affects new raiders. They should not be doing hard modes anyway. They arent designed for newbies, they are designed for experienced players with an excellent grasp of mechanics.

Honestly, saying new players have no right to be doing hard modes makes you sound elitist. If they have the skill, coordination, and damage, why shouldn't they?

I have raided with a LOT of people over the years, from an 80 year old grandpa to literally the very best players in the world, in casual runs and sweaty runs and everything in between. There are people who've only been playing for a few months who are more than ready for hard modes. There are people who will never be ready.

If they have skill, coordination, raid awareness, and dps they arent new players. Period.

Got ttt about a month back with someone who'd only been playing ESO for 2 months. It was a 3 day prog and the first 2 days were the tanks learning how to manage the triplets. So what defines a new player, then?

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I highly disagree. As i previously meantioned vhrc hm is harder for groups to tackle then vmol hm. That was never the intention. When mol was released it was capital h Hard. The dps back then made it so you couldnt skip mechanics. Do you understand that few raid groups even go for DD anymore? That you get nothing for a no death?

I do understand, because I am both one of the PC raid leads who still leads DD runs, and someone who (separately) sells carries for them. I also have all achievements in vMoL.

Which by the way is the only actually difficult achievement in there which is why most groups just skip it. That is specifically why one of my leads teaches it. It has some of the best and most unique mechanics in the entire game and most people never even see it. Skipping mechs doesnt mean you have come far. It means you will be ill prepared for the mandatory mechanics and organization of the following trials. Ive seen it over and over from even more experienced players. They dont know how to move as a group, how to organize where they stand, dont know add priorities, dont know how to deal with multiple mechanics, they dont know how to deal with more complex portal mechanics..

Then they have bad raid leads. A good lead will explain as they go, tell them where to stack, etc. Even in a 3 pad vMoL HM, if you don't stand in the right spot and kite the meteors and unstable void out of group, you will wipe the group.

there are no dps checks in mol beyond the soft check at the first boss, in later trials there very much is..

Each DD must do approximately 65K+ DPS single target on Rakkhat to do a pad 3 burn (not sure of the exact # after the update 35 or whatever it was boss HP nerf). This is a DPS check, and there are plenty of people who aren't capable of it.

and then they get into vet cloudrest and feel like they were hit with a brick. Mol is the absolute perfect place to learn these things but bc people can skip 85 percent of it they never learn.

This only applies if MoL is one of the first trials they do. It often isn't. These days new raiders go for whatever trial they can get rostered in first. Their first trial only has about an 8% chance of being vMoL. So why is it necessary that vMoL needs to be buffed to be hard so they can "learn how to play mechanics" when the reality is they're far more likely to do a later trial first and then circle back to MoL?

Im not suggesting it be "as hard" as later trials, im suggesting that the dps shouldnt prevent you from learning the mechs well and it very much is.

DPS allows you to skip mechs in pretty much every trial. Why should MoL be the exception? The only one I can't speak to is DSR HM because I have the least experience there, but I've used high damage to skip portions or the entirety of mechs in literally every other trial (it's really easy, if damage is high enough, to have a boss just not finish summoning adds so you skip some of them entirely in some HMs - Oax, Bahsei, Lokke, Nahvi (statues, portal skips), Cloudrest (0 portal, gal skips), vAS (mini skips), Yandir (gryphon skip).

Sure, the people who invented those strats learned the mechs, but later groups of players have built on that and the newest raiders don't see any of the earlier mechs that had to be played. That's just progression. At some point Sanity's Edge will have that too.

Ialso dont see why hard mode being up to par affects new raiders. They should not be doing hard modes anyway. They arent designed for newbies, they are designed for experienced players with an excellent grasp of mechanics.

Honestly, saying new players have no right to be doing hard modes makes you sound elitist. If they have the skill, coordination, and damage, why shouldn't they?

I have raided with a LOT of people over the years, from an 80 year old grandpa to literally the very best players in the world, in casual runs and sweaty runs and everything in between. There are people who've only been playing for a few months who are more than ready for hard modes. There are people who will never be ready.

If they have skill, coordination, raid awareness, and dps they arent new players. Period.

Got ttt about a month back with someone who'd only been playing ESO for 2 months. It was a 3 day prog and the first 2 days were the tanks learning how to manage the triplets. So what defines a new player, then?

Thats a incredibly rare scenario. Acting like it isn't is super disingenuous. Even i know one or 2 people like that. One guy i know had gh at 800cp. The overwhelming majority do not step foot in a trial and just know how to do it.

We arent talking about prodigies here. We are talking about your average new player and you know that.

sarahthes · September 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I highly disagree. As i previously meantioned vhrc hm is harder for groups to tackle then vmol hm. That was never the intention. When mol was released it was capital h Hard. The dps back then made it so you couldnt skip mechanics. Do you understand that few raid groups even go for DD anymore? That you get nothing for a no death?

I do understand, because I am both one of the PC raid leads who still leads DD runs, and someone who (separately) sells carries for them. I also have all achievements in vMoL.

Which by the way is the only actually difficult achievement in there which is why most groups just skip it. That is specifically why one of my leads teaches it. It has some of the best and most unique mechanics in the entire game and most people never even see it. Skipping mechs doesnt mean you have come far. It means you will be ill prepared for the mandatory mechanics and organization of the following trials. Ive seen it over and over from even more experienced players. They dont know how to move as a group, how to organize where they stand, dont know add priorities, dont know how to deal with multiple mechanics, they dont know how to deal with more complex portal mechanics..

Then they have bad raid leads. A good lead will explain as they go, tell them where to stack, etc. Even in a 3 pad vMoL HM, if you don't stand in the right spot and kite the meteors and unstable void out of group, you will wipe the group.

there are no dps checks in mol beyond the soft check at the first boss, in later trials there very much is..

Each DD must do approximately 65K+ DPS single target on Rakkhat to do a pad 3 burn (not sure of the exact # after the update 35 or whatever it was boss HP nerf). This is a DPS check, and there are plenty of people who aren't capable of it.

and then they get into vet cloudrest and feel like they were hit with a brick. Mol is the absolute perfect place to learn these things but bc people can skip 85 percent of it they never learn.

This only applies if MoL is one of the first trials they do. It often isn't. These days new raiders go for whatever trial they can get rostered in first. Their first trial only has about an 8% chance of being vMoL. So why is it necessary that vMoL needs to be buffed to be hard so they can "learn how to play mechanics" when the reality is they're far more likely to do a later trial first and then circle back to MoL?

Im not suggesting it be "as hard" as later trials, im suggesting that the dps shouldnt prevent you from learning the mechs well and it very much is.

DPS allows you to skip mechs in pretty much every trial. Why should MoL be the exception? The only one I can't speak to is DSR HM because I have the least experience there, but I've used high damage to skip portions or the entirety of mechs in literally every other trial (it's really easy, if damage is high enough, to have a boss just not finish summoning adds so you skip some of them entirely in some HMs - Oax, Bahsei, Lokke, Nahvi (statues, portal skips), Cloudrest (0 portal, gal skips), vAS (mini skips), Yandir (gryphon skip).

Sure, the people who invented those strats learned the mechs, but later groups of players have built on that and the newest raiders don't see any of the earlier mechs that had to be played. That's just progression. At some point Sanity's Edge will have that too.

Ialso dont see why hard mode being up to par affects new raiders. They should not be doing hard modes anyway. They arent designed for newbies, they are designed for experienced players with an excellent grasp of mechanics.

Honestly, saying new players have no right to be doing hard modes makes you sound elitist. If they have the skill, coordination, and damage, why shouldn't they?

I have raided with a LOT of people over the years, from an 80 year old grandpa to literally the very best players in the world, in casual runs and sweaty runs and everything in between. There are people who've only been playing for a few months who are more than ready for hard modes. There are people who will never be ready.

If they have skill, coordination, raid awareness, and dps they arent new players. Period.

Got ttt about a month back with someone who'd only been playing ESO for 2 months. It was a 3 day prog and the first 2 days were the tanks learning how to manage the triplets. So what defines a new player, then?

Thats a incredibly rare scenario. Acting like it isn't is super disingenuous. Even i know one or 2 people like that. One guy i know had gh at 800cp. The overwhelming majority do not step foot in a trial and just know how to do it.

We arent talking about prodigies here. We are talking about your average new player and you know that.

Some people are just driven towards endgame. This player wasn't particularly amazing. He was just interested and invested (and willing to spend time grinding out gear, LOL).

I still think gating access to HMs behind some arbitrary "experience" level is wrong. It's why I removed rank requirements for signing up for raids in my discord. And the reason I think it's wrong is because the endgame community is so small already (even if you broaden it to include HMs, not just trifectas and scorepushing), we need all the new blood we can get.

FantasticFreddie · September 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I mean cloudrest is what 5years old now? More? Vcr hm is still considered one of the hardest in the game. Way above sunspire and vka which were much later additions

So no. I dont buy the old should be easy argument.

Cloudrest+0 and +1 are easier than vMoL, and can be done by pugs, multiple runs in an hour.
There are also fewer mechanics to worry about, and the dps check of the portals is a pretty mild one, that can be solved by si.ply sending extra people in portal-- for which there is 0 punishment.

+2 and +3 are somewhat harder.

You seem determined that newer people should get their progress hindered for the sake of mildly inconveniencing the top 1% of raiders. Leave the vet and hardmode difficulty of vMoL alone, and simply add an additional hardmode for each boss, and some achievements to go along with it. (With a super cool Dro'mathra themed mount)

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

sarahthes wrote: »

It is far easier now to get GH than it was a few years ago, and the times are getting much faster.

So yes, old content getting easier also applies to Cloudrest.

Kyne's is kind of an outlier in trial difficulty compares to the rest tho. I'd rank it right after vHoF HM in terms of difficulty even when it was brand new.

A pug of decent players can walk into mol hm and get it. A pug of average players in vcr3? Come on now. Its no competition.

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I highly disagree. As i previously meantioned vhrc hm is harder for groups to tackle then vmol hm. That was never the intention. When mol was released it was capital h Hard. The dps back then made it so you couldnt skip mechanics. Do you understand that few raid groups even go for DD anymore? That you get nothing for a no death?

I do understand, because I am both one of the PC raid leads who still leads DD runs, and someone who (separately) sells carries for them. I also have all achievements in vMoL.

Which by the way is the only actually difficult achievement in there which is why most groups just skip it. That is specifically why one of my leads teaches it. It has some of the best and most unique mechanics in the entire game and most people never even see it. Skipping mechs doesnt mean you have come far. It means you will be ill prepared for the mandatory mechanics and organization of the following trials. Ive seen it over and over from even more experienced players. They dont know how to move as a group, how to organize where they stand, dont know add priorities, dont know how to deal with multiple mechanics, they dont know how to deal with more complex portal mechanics..

Then they have bad raid leads. A good lead will explain as they go, tell them where to stack, etc. Even in a 3 pad vMoL HM, if you don't stand in the right spot and kite the meteors and unstable void out of group, you will wipe the group.

there are no dps checks in mol beyond the soft check at the first boss, in later trials there very much is..

Each DD must do approximately 65K+ DPS single target on Rakkhat to do a pad 3 burn (not sure of the exact # after the update 35 or whatever it was boss HP nerf). This is a DPS check, and there are plenty of people who aren't capable of it.

and then they get into vet cloudrest and feel like they were hit with a brick. Mol is the absolute perfect place to learn these things but bc people can skip 85 percent of it they never learn.

This only applies if MoL is one of the first trials they do. It often isn't. These days new raiders go for whatever trial they can get rostered in first. Their first trial only has about an 8% chance of being vMoL. So why is it necessary that vMoL needs to be buffed to be hard so they can "learn how to play mechanics" when the reality is they're far more likely to do a later trial first and then circle back to MoL?

Im not suggesting it be "as hard" as later trials, im suggesting that the dps shouldnt prevent you from learning the mechs well and it very much is.

DPS allows you to skip mechs in pretty much every trial. Why should MoL be the exception? The only one I can't speak to is DSR HM because I have the least experience there, but I've used high damage to skip portions or the entirety of mechs in literally every other trial (it's really easy, if damage is high enough, to have a boss just not finish summoning adds so you skip some of them entirely in some HMs - Oax, Bahsei, Lokke, Nahvi (statues, portal skips), Cloudrest (0 portal, gal skips), vAS (mini skips), Yandir (gryphon skip).

Sure, the people who invented those strats learned the mechs, but later groups of players have built on that and the newest raiders don't see any of the earlier mechs that had to be played. That's just progression. At some point Sanity's Edge will have that too.

Ialso dont see why hard mode being up to par affects new raiders. They should not be doing hard modes anyway. They arent designed for newbies, they are designed for experienced players with an excellent grasp of mechanics.

Honestly, saying new players have no right to be doing hard modes makes you sound elitist. If they have the skill, coordination, and damage, why shouldn't they?

I have raided with a LOT of people over the years, from an 80 year old grandpa to literally the very best players in the world, in casual runs and sweaty runs and everything in between. There are people who've only been playing for a few months who are more than ready for hard modes. There are people who will never be ready.

If they have skill, coordination, raid awareness, and dps they arent new players. Period.

Got ttt about a month back with someone who'd only been playing ESO for 2 months. It was a 3 day prog and the first 2 days were the tanks learning how to manage the triplets. So what defines a new player, then?

Thats a incredibly rare scenario. Acting like it isn't is super disingenuous. Even i know one or 2 people like that. One guy i know had gh at 800cp. The overwhelming majority do not step foot in a trial and just know how to do it.

We arent talking about prodigies here. We are talking about your average new player and you know that.

Some people are just driven towards endgame. This player wasn't particularly amazing. He was just interested and invested (and willing to spend time grinding out gear, LOL).

I still think gating access to HMs behind some arbitrary "experience" level is wrong. It's why I removed rank requirements for signing up for raids in my discord. And the reason I think it's wrong is because the endgame community is so small already (even if you broaden it to include HMs, not just trifectas and scorepushing), we need all the new blood we can get.

This isnt your average hm situation. You need a solid amount of ss experience for eof obviously. You need a fair bit of vka experience to do hm and importantly you need a group with good synergy, this goes for any hard mode, vcr you will go through +1 of all minis. You wouldnt just jump straight into hm. Any raid lead will take you through those basic steps. They also know how to evaluate if a player is ready. My last group it took so incredibly little time to clear mol hm after our first few clears of vet compared with something like ss. Going from ss to sshm you might be looking at months depending on the group starting a fresh prog. This is why so many start with mol. Its not a real hm. He's got more health, he hits a little harder. Same with hof. My 6th time in hof i cleared hm.

Im in 2 teaching guilds and even they will always take you through the basic content to evaluate you as a player, if you arent ready they help you get there not just let people open roster for eof... thats just a mess. Its one thing to start a prog with everyone at the same experience level and work your way up. Its entirely different to throw a bunch of inexperienced folks directly into a real hm. In one guild im in we have "exposure" runs. Again its for people who want to see the content. Its different.

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

The problem here is that we come from utterly different schools of thought on how to approach this. I believe in players being prepared for the content they want to play. If I do ss with a player and they perform incredibly well i will have no qualms bringing them into an hm with my group but i would never bring someone who had never seen the content into that situation. Ive seen to many people get utterly overwhelmed and not want to try it again.

FantasticFreddie · September 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

The problem here is that we come from utterly different schools of thought on how to approach this. I believe in preparing players for the content they want to play. If I do ss with a player and they perform incredibly well i will have no qualms bringing them into an hm with my group but i would never bring someone who had never seen the content into that situation. Ive seen to many people get utterly overwhelmed and not want to try it again.

The problem is you haven't presented anything like a coherent argument, and won't listen to anyone except yourself about anything. "VMoL hardmode needs to be harder" Why? Because it's too easy for you?

Don't try and pretend this is anything except arbitrary gatekeeping of 6 year old content.

sarahthes · September 2023

Actually, regarding vCR HM, I got my clear with a lead who at the time considered +2 unnecessary and would jump people into HM if they had their +1s done.

The thing with Cloudrest is, it relies on individual raid awareness almost more than group coordination. It's a different type of progression than earlier trials, and the skills needed are quite different. As far as I'm concerned, only Cloudrest prepares you for Cloudrest.

I've done open vKA HMs that have cleared, where over half the roster had no prior clear.

I think maybe the reason we are disagreeing is because we have very different experience with raiding and the communities we raid in are very different. I don't know. I just think the slope isn't as steep as you think it is as long as progression follows a fairly sensible path.

sarahthes · September 2023

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

The problem here is that we come from utterly different schools of thought on how to approach this. I believe in preparing players for the content they want to play. If I do ss with a player and they perform incredibly well i will have no qualms bringing them into an hm with my group but i would never bring someone who had never seen the content into that situation. Ive seen to many people get utterly overwhelmed and not want to try it again.

The problem is you haven't presented anything like a coherent argument, and won't listen to anyone except yourself about anything. "VMoL hardmode needs to be harder" Why? Because it's too easy for you?

Don't try and pretend this is anything except arbitrary gatekeeping of 6 year old content.

Also this. It's old old content. It'd be cool if they added new harder achievements to it, but not at the expense of making the current version harder.

I wonder if this is like a console vs PC thing, the difference in opinions. Or a NA vs EU thing.

FantasticFreddie · September 2023

sarahthes wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

The problem here is that we come from utterly different schools of thought on how to approach this. I believe in preparing players for the content they want to play. If I do ss with a player and they perform incredibly well i will have no qualms bringing them into an hm with my group but i would never bring someone who had never seen the content into that situation. Ive seen to many people get utterly overwhelmed and not want to try it again.

The problem is you haven't presented anything like a coherent argument, and won't listen to anyone except yourself about anything. "VMoL hardmode needs to be harder" Why? Because it's too easy for you?

Don't try and pretend this is anything except arbitrary gatekeeping of 6 year old content.

Also this. It's old old content. It'd be cool if they added new harder achievements to it, but not at the expense of making the current version harder.

I wonder if this is like a console vs PC thing, the difference in opinions. Or a NA vs EU thing.

Yeah I would like something NEW. New achievements, new mechanics, etc. That would be really cool and would benefit EVERYONE.

Every single existing achievement and boss fight needs to remain as is for the people who DON'T want or need an increase in difficulty

FantasticFreddie · September 2023

(Also it is almost 8 years old, realeased 2.5 years before Cloudrest, vHoF and vAS were released in between)

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

sarahthes wrote: »

Actually, regarding vCR HM, I got my clear with a lead who at the time considered +2 unnecessary and would jump people into HM if they had their +1s done.

. The thing with Cloudrest is, it relies on individual raid awareness almost more than group coordination. It's a different type of progression than earlier trials, and the skills needed are quite different. As far as I'm concerned, only Cloudrest prepares you for Cloudrest.

I've done open vKA HMs that have cleared, where over half the roster had no prior clear.

I think maybe the reason we are disagreeing is because we have very different experience with raiding and the communities we raid in are very different. I don't know. I just think the slope isn't as steep as you think it is as long as progression follows a fairly sensible path.

But you did +1? With each mini? Thats experience with the content. With vcr that is normal and there is a very simple reason why. The minis are sequential, you dont take them all at the same time as you would in vas. If you can do plus 1 with all of them individually, competently then you are just doing them in order back to back.

I think you are right about one thing, we definitely come from different experiences. I have helped folks clear who worked at it for months in some content. It is so incredibly rare that i see anyone who is just good out of the gate and to be perfectly honest- i prefer working with those people who arent. Its great to help people who may not be amazing in 3 days learn their classes, develop awareness, learn how to work with a team and create relationships with their teammates. One our teams has a guy who is probably 70. Really didnt understand anything, came in wanting to learn. It took a long time but he became very competent in his role. Our leads took the time to mentor him just as they have every member of our team. Id rather do that 1000% then instantly clear an open hm with a few innately amazing players.

sarahthes · September 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Actually, regarding vCR HM, I got my clear with a lead who at the time considered +2 unnecessary and would jump people into HM if they had their +1s done.

. The thing with Cloudrest is, it relies on individual raid awareness almost more than group coordination. It's a different type of progression than earlier trials, and the skills needed are quite different. As far as I'm concerned, only Cloudrest prepares you for Cloudrest.

I've done open vKA HMs that have cleared, where over half the roster had no prior clear.

I think maybe the reason we are disagreeing is because we have very different experience with raiding and the communities we raid in are very different. I don't know. I just think the slope isn't as steep as you think it is as long as progression follows a fairly sensible path.

But you did +1? With each mini? Thats experience with the content. With vcr that is normal and there is a very simple reason why. The minis are sequential, you dont take them all at the same time as you would in vas. If you can do plus 1 with all of them individually, competently then you are just doing them in order back to back.

I think you are right about one thing, we definitely come from different experiences. I have helped folks clear who worked at it for months in some content. It is so incredibly rare that i see anyone who is just good out of the gate and to be perfectly honest- i prefer working with those people who arent. Its great to help people who may not be amazing in 3 days learn their classes, develop awareness, learn how to work with a team and create relationships with their teammates. One our teams has a guy who is probably 70. Really didnt understand anything, came in wanting to learn. It took a long time but he became very competent in his role. Our leads took the time to mentor him just as they have every member of our team. Id rather do that 1000% then instantly clear an open hm with a few innately amazing players.

I do both, tbh. Work with less strong players and stronger players. In 2023, though, there's no excuse for not clearing old content fairly quickly.

As for Cloudrest, yes I did do my time if you mean single +1 clears... it was also years ago, I got my first GH fall 2020. These days, for many the progression is much much faster (as it should be, because it's older content and damage is higher, and the faster you kill things the less punishing the mechanics are).

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

The problem here is that we come from utterly different schools of thought on how to approach this. I believe in preparing players for the content they want to play. If I do ss with a player and they perform incredibly well i will have no qualms bringing them into an hm with my group but i would never bring someone who had never seen the content into that situation. Ive seen to many people get utterly overwhelmed and not want to try it again.

The problem is you haven't presented anything like a coherent argument, and won't listen to anyone except yourself about anything. "VMoL hardmode needs to be harder" Why? Because it's too easy for you?

Don't try and pretend this is anything except arbitrary gatekeeping of 6 year old content.

By saying i want people to actually see all the mechs for a unique trial and that its hm shouldnt be quite as easy as it is obviously i just want it to be turned into vdsr hm. I suggested no additional mechanics, i suggested no change to the twins. All i suggested was boss 1 and 3 should get a bit of a health buff so they arent a total burnfest. The twins are the entire trial. Buffing the other two would not make it this insanely out of reach thing.

Yep full on eitist. How dare i even mention such an idea.

And just so we all understand eachother when i say new im talking about people without a full understanding of their role or class, without good raid awareness who are still at a relatively basic level when it comes to player ability. I probably should have clarified that but i doubt it would have mattered any way.

@sarahthes and i may not agree on some things but atleast she presented something of value to say with experience
to back it up not just personal attacks.
Im gonna cut this off here. Im not interested in people twisting my ideas or intentions turned into something they arent or attacking my integrity as a player.

@ZOS_Icy please close thread

FantasticFreddie · September 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

The problem here is that we come from utterly different schools of thought on how to approach this. I believe in preparing players for the content they want to play. If I do ss with a player and they perform incredibly well i will have no qualms bringing them into an hm with my group but i would never bring someone who had never seen the content into that situation. Ive seen to many people get utterly overwhelmed and not want to try it again.

The problem is you haven't presented anything like a coherent argument, and won't listen to anyone except yourself about anything. "VMoL hardmode needs to be harder" Why? Because it's too easy for you?

Don't try and pretend this is anything except arbitrary gatekeeping of 6 year old content.

By saying i want people to actually see all the mechs for a unique trial and that its hm shouldnt be quite as easy as it is obviously i just want it to be turned into vdsr hm. I suggested no additional mechanics, i suggested no change to the twins. All i suggested was boss 1 and 3 should get a bit of a health buff so they arent a total burnfest. The twins are the entire trial. Buffing the other two would not make it this insanely out of reach thing.

Yep full on eitist. How dare i even mention such an idea.

And just so we all understand eachother when i say new im talking about people without a full understanding of their role or class, without good raid awareness who are still at a relatively basic level when it comes to player ability. I probably should have clarified that but i doubt it would have mattered any way.

@sarahthes and i may not agree on some things but atleast she presented something of value to say with experience
to back it up not just personal attacks.
Im gonna cut this off here. Im not interested in people twisting my ideas or intentions turned into something they arent or attacking my integrity as a player.

@ZOS_Icy please close thread

The top tier dps are parsing 130k on a dummy and can reach higher than that in content.
Buffing ANY bosses to force a group of end game raiders to see the mechanics will cripple a more average raiders ability to clear the trial, period.

And if you don’t buff it up to that extent-- then you are just crippling the low and mid tier raiders for no reason.

Give it NEW content, don't just arbitrarily raise the difficulty on existing content. Really, how many people would want to do vMoL if it was the exact same just harder for no reason? I've already spent hours in the backyard, dying to the bombs, etc.
I need a REASON to go back in. "Boss has more health" is a terrible reason, and it baffles me that you can't see that.

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

The problem here is that we come from utterly different schools of thought on how to approach this. I believe in preparing players for the content they want to play. If I do ss with a player and they perform incredibly well i will have no qualms bringing them into an hm with my group but i would never bring someone who had never seen the content into that situation. Ive seen to many people get utterly overwhelmed and not want to try it again.

The problem is you haven't presented anything like a coherent argument, and won't listen to anyone except yourself about anything. "VMoL hardmode needs to be harder" Why? Because it's too easy for you?

Don't try and pretend this is anything except arbitrary gatekeeping of 6 year old content.

By saying i want people to actually see all the mechs for a unique trial and that its hm shouldnt be quite as easy as it is obviously i just want it to be turned into vdsr hm. I suggested no additional mechanics, i suggested no change to the twins. All i suggested was boss 1 and 3 should get a bit of a health buff so they arent a total burnfest. The twins are the entire trial. Buffing the other two would not make it this insanely out of reach thing.

Yep full on eitist. How dare i even mention such an idea.

And just so we all understand eachother when i say new im talking about people without a full understanding of their role or class, without good raid awareness who are still at a relatively basic level when it comes to player ability. I probably should have clarified that but i doubt it would have mattered any way.

@sarahthes and i may not agree on some things but atleast she presented something of value to say with experience
to back it up not just personal attacks.
Im gonna cut this off here. Im not interested in people twisting my ideas or intentions turned into something they arent or attacking my integrity as a player.

@ZOS_Icy please close thread

The top tier dps are parsing 130k on a dummy and can reach higher than that in content.
Buffing ANY bosses to force a group of end game raiders to see the mechanics will cripple a more average raiders ability to clear the trial, period.

And if you don’t buff it up to that extent-- then you are just crippling the low and mid tier raiders for no reason.

Give it NEW content, don't just arbitrarily raise the difficulty on existing content. Really, how many people would want to do vMoL if it was the exact same just harder for no reason? I've already spent hours in the backyard, dying to the bombs, etc.
I need a REASON to go back in. "Boss has more health" is a terrible reason, and it baffles me that you can't see that.

Im not interested in top tier players my dude. They wil burn through everything. Thats not the point. Im talking about mid level players doing an hm who have never seen any of this because they can burn it to the ground.

New achievements, titles, rewards is plenty of reason for folks to go back. No reason to change the difficulty if rewards didnt follow with it. That should be pretty obvious.

If we lock all those achievements and rewards behind some super duper hardmode wouldnt that make it completely inaccessible for the majority of players instead of giving current hm a buff and making it accessible to mid level players?

As i said. Im done with this conversation. Your being plain abrasive as if the suggestion was some personal attack just leave it be and let the thread be closed.

code65536 · September 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Id love to see some of the bosses get a health a buff and an actual trifecta achievement and reward added to this trial. Its legitimately awesome. It has very unique mechs and if people couldnt burn it so fast it actually requires a ton of mechanical knowledge. I want to see interest returned to this trial. Please consider it 🙏

You know, the reason why HoF has a trifecta was because there was demand for one in MoL. They stated this outright when they released HoF.

But wait, if there was demand for a MoL trifecta all the way back in 2016/2017, why didn't they add one? Well, only ZOS knows the answer to that question, but it's pretty clear from looking at how they have handled things over the years that they prefer to apply the feedback that they get to new content and leave the book closed on old content.

There have been only two exceptions to the "leave the book closed" policy. The crags were scaled, but that's a special case since they were created in the days of static, non-scaling levels. And HoF was nerfed, because vHoF was the hardest non-HM trial and had the lowest non-HM clearance rate (I assume DSR has since usurped that throne), and ZOS cares about there being some degree of accessibility for non-HM.

Aside from that, there have been no adjustments to trials half a year or later after their release.

Now, I don't want to wade too far into your conversation with Sarah, but I want to point out that different trials are difficult in different ways and for different reasons, and as such, some trials have aged better than others because of how they're designed.

And so on the topic of MoL, let's face it, MoL was a poorly-designed trial. Sure, it had great visuals, great dialog, and the mechanics had nice concepts, but the designs were fatally flawed from the start in that they are exceptionally sensitive to DPS levels--more so than any trial before or since. Lunar skips in regular vet became the norm almost immediately after the trial's release. Even for HM, world-first and a few groups that followed did Lunar, but most after that skipped it. On Rakkhat, the more pads you can skip, the more you can focus into doing damage, which creates a feedback effect that makes the fight excessively sensitive to damage levels. These were all problems that were apparent all the way back in 2016 and 2017.

Boosting health levels in MoL would just be slapping a bandaid on some fundamental design flaws that would require going back to the drawing board. And there's a snowflake's chance in hell of that happening.

Just leave it alone and let it stand as a lesson for what to avoid in trial design.

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

^ See that is a thoughtful, well informed response. I can appreciate your points and the time you took to respond.

ZOS_Icy · September 2023

Greetings,

We would like to remind everyone to please keep conversations constructive and relevant to the forum topic. With that being said, we are going to go ahead and close this thread as per the request of the OP.

Thank you for your understanding!