Werewolfs

Red99 · September 2023

We have to wait another skyrim related chapter for some decent werewolf buffs? It's unplayable at least in pvp, i haven't seen one in too long, they are too weak in every aspect

IncultaWolf · September 2023

I agree, they need a lot of love

Erickson9610 · September 2023

Werewolf is so fundamentally different as an isolated playstyle that most balance changes do not benefit Werewolf in the slightest. This makes Werewolf fall behind competitively in terms of both PvE and PvP.

Werewolf is not in a good state right now, and the amount of attention given to it each patch is disproportionately low compared to the amount of attention that every other playstyle in the game receives.

Panderbander · September 2023

I've been reposting this list for every PTS cycle for the past few updates.

Panderbander wrote: »

...
Brutal Pounce not always swapping to Brutal Carnage after pouncing.

Brutal Carnage requiring a target in range to cast, yet it's a conal AOE that can be easily ranged and thus rarely hits in PVP

Claws of Life being our only pseudo-"heal over time" and the return on that being so small as to not be noticeable, even on multiple targets.

The obscene cost of werewolf abilities in relation to their damage done, which seems to have been balanced with the extra 30% stamina in mind though that gives very little extra damage or ability uses in practical use.

The damage of werewolf abilities being often lower than similar abilities of base classes despite this extra ability cost.

Werewolf having a unique 30% movement speed buff but without snare removal we actually move slower than base classes (all of which can access snare removal).

Both morphs of our heal being tied to max health while our damage is tied to weapon damage and max stamina/magicka, meaning we're forced to split stats more than anyone else (which leads to the common complaint about werewolves having 40k+ HP).

Pounce routinely leaping us at gods know what because when we land there certainly isn't anything there (anyone that's played long enough has seen this).

An inability to stealth (some hunters we are) or detect stealth (some enhanced senses we have).

No ability to synergize with other werewolves despite a timer minigame that clearly wants us to run with other werewolves.

THE [snip] TIMER MINIGAME.

Next to no weapon passives carrying over to werewolf form despite there being no indication that this is the case and causing a lack of interesting choices when building our character.

No proper heal over time meaning that while we have to stay aggressive to keep our timer up, we can't afford to do so because there is no passive healing.

Health recovery (which WAS our heal over time) has been completely gutted.

An inability to run both a monster set and a mythic while running two five-pieces because we can not split sets with a back bar.

Our fear occasionally only applying off balance on non-CC immune targets.

No ability to recover magicka, leading to an inordinate use of magicka recovery in our builds or heavy armor (for pvp at least)

No ultimate and no way to combo with our abilities (it's all pure pressure) despite seemingly every single werewolf themed set in the game offering ultimate generation/cost reduction. (I know about Savage Werewolf)

...and there's more.

There's more to add to that list now:

Werewolf light attacks losing their unique range
No snare removal and now no snare
No minor resolve accessible to our kit
Buffs that we could previously carry into werewolf form (i.e. Grim Focus stacks) being forcibly removed on entering form now

When will ZOS listen?

I'm sure they've muted all pings by now but... @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Kevin please... just throw us a metaphorical bone already.

NuarBlack · September 2023

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Werewolf is so fundamentally different as an isolated playstyle that most balance changes do not benefit Werewolf in the slightest. This makes Werewolf fall behind competitively in terms of both PvE and PvP.

Werewolf is not in a good state right now, and the amount of attention given to it each patch is disproportionately low compared to the amount of attention that every other playstyle in the game receives.

It's other problem is it is an ultimate, which makes it weird to balance. It either needs to be an ultimate on par with other roaming ultimates like corrosive armor and be harder to stay in, but significantly more powerful or;

Just make you a Werewolf permanently if its slotted while still having something active when you hit the ultimate, similar to warden bear. (I know this poses problems for the criminal system but removing Werewolf from the crime system wouldn't be the worst thing)

I'd prefer the latter, especially if they added more abilities or allowed you to use some non-werewolf skills still.

Panderbander · September 2023

NuarBlack wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Werewolf is so fundamentally different as an isolated playstyle that most balance changes do not benefit Werewolf in the slightest. This makes Werewolf fall behind competitively in terms of both PvE and PvP.

Werewolf is not in a good state right now, and the amount of attention given to it each patch is disproportionately low compared to the amount of attention that every other playstyle in the game receives.

It's other problem is it is an ultimate, which makes it weird to balance. It either needs to be an ultimate on par with other roaming ultimates like corrosive armor and be harder to stay in, but significantly more powerful or;

Just make you a Werewolf permanently if its slotted while still having something active when you hit the ultimate, similar to warden bear. (I know this poses problems for the criminal system but removing Werewolf from the crime system wouldn't be the worst thing)

I'd prefer the latter, especially if they added more abilities or allowed you to use some non-werewolf skills still.

Say it with me: "Werewolf is a class"

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416461/class-rep-werewolf-feedback-thread

OBJnoob · September 2023

Rookie werewolf here. My experience hasn't been that bad honestly. It also hasn't been long enough to have some of the complex opinions and complaints some of you have.

I disagree that it's a class. I mean... It sorta is, but only because it's lacking what vampires have-- the ability to use class abilities at the same time. But I don't think it should become a class, I think the transforming thing is cool.

Here's my random list of changes I think would help.
1) Don't fear enemies when you transform. It's free CC immunity. Instead-- just become immune to damage during the animation.
2) I think the brutal pounce and brutal carnage thing should just be combined-- just make the pounced person(s) start bleeding. Werewolves don't have a delayed damage skill so they kinda rely on the bleeds but by the time you load someone up you, yourself, are probably dead.
3) It would be cool if you could recast the ultimate (similar to the warden bear,) for a special attack of some sort.
4) Maybe the heal could come with an attached HoT. It's hard fighting with only one burst heal.
5) OR none of the above. They aren't like other toons and that COULD be okay. But then they need something special. Something nobody else has, since they're missing so much others do have. They could have like a passive bloodthirst where they do more damage to low health targets. I find that pretty thematic. Call it bloodlust, if the name isn't taken. OR, make it so their DoTs can't be purged. Also thematic, I think, if you let it be

Panderbander · September 2023

I mean it really doesn't matter if you or anyone else does or doesn't consider it a class. ZOS gave it a class representative when that program was active.

The fact of the matter is that it radically alters the way that you play your character to the point that it is no longer recognizable as the original class to anyone that isn't aware of what it is. If you fight a sorc werewolf you don't say you fought a sorc, you say you fought a werewolf. If I win a fight against a necromancer werewolf I say I beat a werewolf, not that I beat a necromancer.

Just because the class is locked behind an ultimate doesn't mean it isn't a class and shouldn't be given the care it deserves as such.

Panderbander · September 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Rookie werewolf here. My experience hasn't been that bad honestly. It also hasn't been long enough to have some of the complex opinions and complaints some of you have.

I disagree that it's a class. I mean... It sorta is, but only because it's lacking what vampires have-- the ability to use class abilities at the same time. But I don't think it should become a class, I think the transforming thing is cool.

Here's my random list of changes I think would help.
1) Don't fear enemies when you transform. It's free CC immunity. Instead-- just become immune to damage during the animation.
2) I think the brutal pounce and brutal carnage thing should just be combined-- just make the pounced person(s) start bleeding. Werewolves don't have a delayed damage skill so they kinda rely on the bleeds but by the time you load someone up you, yourself, are probably dead.
3) It would be cool if you could recast the ultimate (similar to the warden bear,) for a special attack of some sort.
4) Maybe the heal could come with an attached HoT. It's hard fighting with only one burst heal.
5) OR none of the above. They aren't like other toons and that COULD be okay. But then they need something special. Something nobody else has, since they're missing so much others do have. They could have like a passive bloodthirst where they do more damage to low health targets. I find that pretty thematic. Call it bloodlust, if the name isn't taken. OR, make it so their DoTs can't be purged. Also thematic, I think, if you let it be

I wanted to add that you've got some good suggestions here. Werewolf is definitely in need of an ultimate other than your ultimate being "stop being a werewolf", and a heal over time on the heal would do wonders for survivability. I don't think non-werewolf players really realize how much of a difference having a persistent heal ticking away makes.

Lalothen · September 2023

Thinking about the morphs themselves, I would like to see ZOS make the Berserker morph's transform permanent, like you're fully embracing your inner WW and leaving your humanity behind. So you pick Berserker, use the transform and then your ultimate starts to regenerate normally again and the ult ability becomes something different, like a conal DoT roar or something like that. The only way to transform back would be cleanse yourself of lycanthropy completely.

With regard to Pack Leader I would make it truly pack-themed with abilities that simulate a pack of wolves attacking their prey. It doesn't have to be more actual pets, but rather skills that use wolves for graphic presentation akin to Selene proc, shalks, cliff racer et al. Thinking about it, this could also allow the pack leader to be a ranged build whilst the Berserker would remain purely melee. I would retain a duration on Pack Leader transform, but as with Berserker allow ult to generate normally and have an in-form ult. I'd also make pack leader's bone broth extend the transform duration of the Pack Leader whilst in-form.

NuarBlack · September 2023

Lalothen wrote: »

Thinking about the morphs themselves, I would like to see ZOS make the Berserker morph's transform permanent, like you're fully embracing your inner WW and leaving your humanity behind. So you pick Berserker, use the transform and then your ultimate starts to regenerate normally again and the ult ability becomes something different, like a conal DoT roar or something like that. The only way to transform back would be cleanse yourself of lycanthropy completely.

With regard to Pack Leader I would make it truly pack-themed with abilities that simulate a pack of wolves attacking their prey. It doesn't have to be more actual pets, but rather skills that use wolves for graphic presentation akin to Selene proc, shalks, cliff racer et al. Thinking about it, this could also allow the pack leader to be a ranged build whilst the Berserker would remain purely melee. I would retain a duration on Pack Leader transform, but as with Berserker allow ult to generate normally and have an in-form ult. I'd also make pack leader's bone broth extend the transform duration of the Pack Leader whilst in-form.

Like where this idea is going other than the ranged idea. I'd much rather see one morph just be permanent werewolf with a low cost activation ultimate and then a second morph that turned you into maybe a werewolf behemoth like the one momento for a short duration but a major power spike on par with corrosive armor. I think an easy visual distinction between the two would be important.

Trying to make werewolf a support class just seems to open a can of worms and more conditional benefits are the last thing werewolf needs imo. Duration extending mechanics are clunky and don't perform evenly across different kinds of content. At most you could throw in a warhorn type group buff on the short duration morph if group utility is a must.

huskandhunger · September 2023

Werewolf really needs a thorough gameplay and graphics update.

I still werewolf mostly because of my silly imagination that enjoys being this monster wolf thing.

But in reality in PVP and PVE issues arise in the mechanics of how it plays, how it moves, heals itself, and does damage etc. in each of these areas, the werewolf class needs updates.

Not to mention the timer and having a rushed experience is not enjoyable at all especially when NPCs are talking for long times.

huskandhunger · September 2023

This video shows a little bit of what it is like generally as a werewolf.

https://youtu.be/MOPtGTdUwuw?si=oth_C4-voml35ro9

IncultaWolf · September 2023

huskandhunger wrote: »

This video shows a little bit of what it is like generally as a werewolf.

https://youtu.be/MOPtGTdUwuw?si=oth_C4-voml35ro9

The werewolf lost the duel because he didn't have access to stage 3 vamp undeath passive

huskandhunger · September 2023

This video shows a little bit of what it is like generally as a werewolf.

https://youtu.be/MOPtGTdUwuw?si=oth_C4-voml35ro9

IncultaWolf wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

This video shows a little bit of what it is like generally as a werewolf.

https://youtu.be/MOPtGTdUwuw?si=oth_C4-voml35ro9

The werewolf lost the duel because he didn't have access to stage 3 vamp undeath passive

Yes, even among vampire vs. werewolf even there is an imbalance with the 30% mitigation for vampire at stage 3, and the werewolf having.... at least in Berserker form, none ^_^;;;

Erickson9610 · September 2023

Why would anyone reasonably give up the majority of their abilities and passives? The benefits of Werewolf don't compare to the staggering downsides of losing access to the best skills that you can only use in your human form.

This is a complicated design problem. Vampire gets it easy because unlike Werewolf, they are not locked out of all of the best skills and passives, and they can still bar swap, sneak, use Ultimate abilities, and generally play the game as it was intended to be played. Compared to the capabilities of the human form, Werewolf just feels like a dumbed down version with fewer options.

VadimAleks · September 2023

Just bring back our 10k armor and light attack scaling, as it was before the so-called “rebalances” of LA damage. Werewolf - offered a unique light attack gameplay (especially convenient for people with disabilities). If I want to play a "rotation" character, I'll take ANY class. There was no need to make the werewolf the same “rotation build”, worse than ANY other build. The werewolf no longer has survivability (10k armor is gone, Major Resolve does not compensate for this), he does not have decent healing (5k mana cost for a stamina-oriented build), he does not have decent damage (50-60% of his damage was light attacks, nerfed to the ground). His DoTs are simply ridiculous (after all, they also fell under the nerf of DoTs with a proc once every 2 sec), bleeding from a light attack does not proc 1 tick and is not prolonged with subsequent light attacks. Werewolf is purely fan service now. But even in this he is poor - because for fan service he should look like a Werewolf Behemoth, and not like a starving jackal.

huskandhunger · September 2023

VadimAleks wrote: »

Just bring back our 10k armor and light attack scaling, as it was before the so-called “rebalances” of LA damage. Werewolf - offered a unique light attack gameplay (especially convenient for people with disabilities). If I want to play a "rotation" character, I'll take ANY class. There was no need to make the werewolf the same “rotation build”, worse than ANY other build. The werewolf no longer has survivability (10k armor is gone, Major Resolve does not compensate for this), he does not have decent healing (5k mana cost for a stamina-oriented build), he does not have decent damage (50-60% of his damage was light attacks, nerfed to the ground). His DoTs are simply ridiculous (after all, they also fell under the nerf of DoTs with a proc once every 2 sec), bleeding from a light attack does not proc 1 tick and is not prolonged with subsequent light attacks. Werewolf is purely fan service now. But even in this he is poor - because for fan service he should look like a Werewolf Behemoth, and not like a starving jackal.

So much this post, haahaha oh gooodness, it's so true xD

J18696 · September 2023

Werewolf needs like a ground up redesign it's years since I've seen a ww player in pvp and not just treated it like a free kill it was carried for so long by the health regen meta and ever since they took that away it's really struggled to find a balance in stats to actually be useful at least in pvp

Panderbander · September 2023

J18696 wrote: »

Werewolf needs like a ground up redesign it's years since I've seen a ww player in pvp and not just treated it like a free kill it was carried for so long by the health regen meta and ever since they took that away it's really struggled to find a balance in stats to actually be useful at least in pvp

It's between that, the loss of our unique armor (that arcanist seems to have now), and hybridization ramping up the power of every other class in the game while providing werewolf with zero real benefit (woo, we can equip light armor sets for the same stats but with less armor!)

It seems like through every single change made over the past couple years werewolf wasn't even considered or, if it was, it was actively harmed (original Oakensoul, back bar passive abilities, heavy attack damage and recovery amounts, dire wolf snare, etc.)

IncultaWolf · September 2023

J18696 wrote: »

Werewolf needs like a ground up redesign it's years since I've seen a ww player in pvp and not just treated it like a free kill it was carried for so long by the health regen meta and ever since they took that away it's really struggled to find a balance in stats to actually be useful at least in pvp

Yeah, it has never really recovered from that meta, if we can't get the unique armor back, werewolf at least needs minor resolve, something everyone else already has access to, and uses on almost every pvp build.

Red99 · September 2023

"Don’t expect a lot of balance adjustments this update; we’re slowing down to let changes to values and functionalities “bake” longer so we can get more robust data and patterns before adjusting anything – but that doesn’t mean there are none to be had this update."

apparently 2 years are not enough for the developers to understand that the wolf needs major changes

Panderbander · September 2023

Don't worry, soon all the werewolf players will quit and then the data will be irrelevant!

IncultaWolf · September 2023

Panderbander wrote: »

Don't worry, soon all the werewolf players will quit and then the data will be irrelevant!

Yeah, I think I should finally swap to dragonknight

huskandhunger · September 2023

I just got my furry butt handed to me by a low level Dragon Knight spamming whips and chains and wearing Rallying Cry set in a battlegrounds just now.

I just feel like no matter what I try I'm always at a disadvantage playing as a werewolf and I know that very well, but sometimes I wish we could have at least something come through in the patch notes to help us out 😕 this sucks 😔

IncultaWolf · September 2023

huskandhunger wrote: »

I just got my furry butt handed to me by a low level Dragon Knight spamming whips and chains and wearing Rallying Cry set in a battlegrounds just now.

I just feel like no matter what I try I'm always at a disadvantage playing as a werewolf and I know that very well, but sometimes I wish we could have at least something come through in the patch notes to help us out 😕 this sucks 😔

Yeah there's just nothing you can do, when I play on my brawler nightblade and I see a werewolf, I know they will be free AP and easy kill.

Panderbander · September 2023

huskandhunger wrote: »

I just got my furry butt handed to me by a low level Dragon Knight spamming whips and chains and wearing Rallying Cry set in a battlegrounds just now.

I just feel like no matter what I try I'm always at a disadvantage playing as a werewolf and I know that very well, but sometimes I wish we could have at least something come through in the patch notes to help us out 😕 this sucks 😔

Don't worry, ZOS is getting baked... I mean letting it bake. We just can't know if werewolf is underperforming or not until they have another three years of data, okay?

sneakymitchell · September 2023

Werewolf needs more better damage since it got 5 skills to use and 3 that does damage. But I can hear the eso vet boys don’t want a 1 bar build again. Which again forces players out of eso or they just play casually and not care about anything

huskandhunger · September 2023

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Werewolf needs more better damage since it got 5 skills to use and 3 that does damage. But I can hear the eso vet boys don’t want a 1 bar build again. Which again forces players out of eso or they just play casually and not care about anything

Yes and so much damage is locked behind damage over time: Brutal Carnage, the travel time for the projectile for Howl of Despair/Howl of Agony, and Claws of Life/Anguish disease over time effects with the per 2 seconds delay.

Damage should feel snappy and more impactful like a stacking effect or mechanic to fall back on to have a power up scenario where a werewolf player feels strong against an opponent since the skill line lacks an ultimate or even more options to be defensive like leaping to friendly players or general terrain in a give radius or the ability to sneak or maybe even ZoS could add a hunt mechanic where if the werewolf closes the gap quick enough in a certain range they gain a Surprise advantage attack or something.

SandandStars · September 2023

Werewolves

wolves

it’s an irregular noun

🤓