Templar - Revert Jabs and Backlash to Pre-U35

gariondavey · July 2023

The thing is, no competent person has ever died to someone spamming jabs. Pre-u35 this was true and it is extremely true now that jabs is trash.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

gariondavey wrote: »

The thing is, no competent person has ever died to someone spamming jabs. Pre-u35 this was true and it is extremely true now that jabs is trash.

Right, you’ve always been able to phase through your opponent to deny them half of their jabs, and Major Evasion worked just as good then as it does now.

IAVITNI · July 2023

Backlash would be fine as-is if Jabs/Sweeps weren't so terribly weak.

tbh, this.

It's important to avoid homogenizing play styles - not every build needs a top tier spammable with a top tier burst skill. In fact, no class should ever have this if the goal is to achieve class balance.

That said, jabs should probably be the best spammable in terms of raw damage output out of all classes considering it's a channel, which in turn improves the power of the classes burst ability, so I do see how it's hard to find that balance.

Hard, but not impossible and definitely not something that should have been left unchecked for this long.

merpins · July 2023

IAVITNI wrote: »

Backlash would be fine as-is if Jabs/Sweeps weren't so terribly weak.

tbh, this.

It's important to avoid homogenizing play styles - not every build needs a top tier spammable with a top tier burst skill. In fact, no class should ever have this if the goal is to achieve class balance.

That said, jabs should probably be the best spammable in terms of raw damage output out of all classes considering it's a channel, which in turn improves the power of the classes burst ability, so I do see how it's hard to find that balance.

Hard, but not impossible and definitely not something that should have been left unchecked for this long.

I agree for the most part. But I don't think it was the best raw-damage spammable out there. It was definitely among the best, definitely top 3, but not number 1. And I also think that the class does need a burst skill. Right now, the nerf has left it worse off than just slotting any other dot. That doesn't mean it needs to be the best burst skill ever; it just needs to be pretty good in order to help.

I'd still be happy with just having a Jabs revert. But that's copium; I'd rather have both skills in PVE, and just having one or the other won't fully fix the problems. It's the want to request something lesser in hopes that they'll do at least one thing that's hitting, but I do not want to compromise when it's two things compounding that's actually causing the problem.

Will fixing one help? Yes. But I don't think it'll fix the problem

Brandark · July 2023

While I'd love to see jabs reverted to pre u35 levels, it seems rather unlikely with the devs sticking to their guns almost four patches down the line. Still, I think there's some room for improvement even if a total rollback doesn't happen.

Templar can really use the shiny new mechanic of getting a buff from a skill just from having it slotted in either bar. The major savagery and prophecy from Biting Jabs, perhaps? Or they could de-nerf the burning light damage, that will help both pvp and pve players.

merpins · July 2023

Brandark wrote: »

While I'd love to see jabs reverted to pre u35 levels, it seems rather unlikely with the devs sticking to their guns almost four patches down the line. Still, I think there's some room for improvement even if a total rollback doesn't happen.

Templar can really use the shiny new mechanic of getting a buff from a skill just from having it slotted in either bar. The major savagery and prophecy from Biting Jabs, perhaps? Or they could de-nerf the burning light damage, that will help both pvp and pve players.

Personally, I'd love a rollback for Templar's two skills. Doesn't matter how they buff or try to fix them, they were fine before, Why fix what isn't broken? Like there is a solution to the problem, and it's just revert. Why try to do incremental tweaks NOW, when they've refused to do that for years for every other class? Now, after they did a big swinging change no templar asked for? Nah, they need to just revert it. It would be more appreciated by the templar community than any buffs they could give the skills.

ACamaroGuy · August 2023

merpins wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t revert Backlash to pre U35, at least for PvP as it was doing too much damage. There needs to be a middle ground though so the ability does just enough burst damage but not too much. I’m sure @Cloudrest could provide some insight.

It'd be nice is they started balancing pve and pvp separately, then they could bring it back to where it was for PVE at least.

Passives, armor stats, etc should change when in a PvP zone. PvE players shouldn't suffer because a PvP player thinks something is op because they died.
I want a class change token. My MagPlar was my main until U35. He had everything unlocked and achieved. Now I'm using my heavy attack sorcerer to farm Necrom. I'm not starting a toon over again. I just want to get rid of my templar and change it to a MagSorc.

merpins · August 2023

ACamaroGuy wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t revert Backlash to pre U35, at least for PvP as it was doing too much damage. There needs to be a middle ground though so the ability does just enough burst damage but not too much. I’m sure @Cloudrest could provide some insight.

It'd be nice is they started balancing pve and pvp separately, then they could bring it back to where it was for PVE at least.

Passives, armor stats, etc should change when in a PvP zone. PvE players shouldn't suffer because a PvP player thinks something is op because they died.
I want a class change token. My MagPlar was my main until U35. He had everything unlocked and achieved. Now I'm using my heavy attack sorcerer to farm Necrom. I'm not starting a toon over again. I just want to get rid of my templar and change it to a MagSorc.

I don't want a class change token personally. Even though my templar was a character I made and mained since 2014, I just want my character to work well again. So a revert would fix all my problems.

Vahndamme · August 2023

Well, I've been following this forums for loooong time already, commented a lot pre-U35.. even took a long ass break and now I'm hardly playing the Templar anymore and definitely not enjoying it as before. Fun fact is, Templar did well in cleaving department and still did fairly ok dmg overall. But now there's just no reason to play them, Arcanist can do it all better. It's just ridiculous.

Will we ever see a revert or proper change (only revert seems reasonable tbh)? Big doubt. One can hope.

merpins · August 2023

Vahndamme wrote: »

Well, I've been following this forums for loooong time already, commented a lot pre-U35.. even took a long ass break and now I'm hardly playing the Templar anymore and definitely not enjoying it as before. Fun fact is, Templar did well in cleaving department and still did fairly ok dmg overall. But now there's just no reason to play them, Arcanist can do it all better. It's just ridiculous.

Will we ever see a revert or proper change (only revert seems reasonable tbh)? Big doubt. One can hope.

100%

SaffronCitrusflower · August 2023

We can keep dreaming. It's all we have now for templar mains. Please, please just stop with the goofy animation. It's just painful to watch, not to mention the night hollow stave in place of a spear of light.

ElderSmitter · August 2023

Vahndamme wrote: »

Well, I've been following this forums for loooong time already, commented a lot pre-U35.. even took a long ass break and now I'm hardly playing the Templar anymore and definitely not enjoying it as before. Fun fact is, Templar did well in cleaving department and still did fairly ok dmg overall. But now there's just no reason to play them, Arcanist can do it all better. It's just ridiculous.

Will we ever see a revert or proper change (only revert seems reasonable tbh)? Big doubt. One can hope.

My Templar Hits Hard in PVE (Don't do PVP really} I am too afraid to post my build in fear of you know what, (Nerf's lol) but it easily smokes 100k DPS and in 4-man Vet DLC content is almost always doing 45-60% of the Damage I really think folks need to stop running Relq and Nirn as a Templar and they will find out that their DPS is much Better running Deadly with another Set. Best of Luck!

merpins · August 2023

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

Vahndamme wrote: »

Well, I've been following this forums for loooong time already, commented a lot pre-U35.. even took a long ass break and now I'm hardly playing the Templar anymore and definitely not enjoying it as before. Fun fact is, Templar did well in cleaving department and still did fairly ok dmg overall. But now there's just no reason to play them, Arcanist can do it all better. It's just ridiculous.

Will we ever see a revert or proper change (only revert seems reasonable tbh)? Big doubt. One can hope.

My Templar Hits Hard in PVE (Don't do PVP really} I am too afraid to post my build in fear of you know what, (Nerf's lol) but it easily smokes 100k DPS and in 4-man Vet DLC content is almost always doing 45-60% of the Damage I really think folks need to stop running Relq and Nirn as a Templar and they will find out that their DPS is much Better running Deadly with another Set. Best of Luck!

In random vet dungeons, you'll probably do the highest DPS of the group if you're good at DPS. My templar also does good damage if you compare it to the average damage of players in the game. But it is no longer top tier damage, and it's much harder for players to actually get okay damage like this than it used to be.

I can easily do ~100-110k dps, but I can't boost it any higher than 110. And I've been maining templar since the game released. Other classes can get 125-135. Heavy attack builds can hit 100k dps.
It used to be up there with the other high end dps classes, and it also used to be a pretty beginner friendly class that did good damage even if you didn't have the gear. Now you need the gear to scrape by, and even then you'd be better off playing a different class if you want to do that top end damage, or even a heavy attack build if you wanna do similar damage and not have to work at all to get the dps.

Plus the animation of jabs is terrible, for reasons I've gone over before. The class is struggling, and the only reason it can hit the damage numbers it does right now is because the class is hard carried by the best execute in the game.

Vahndamme · August 2023

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

Vahndamme wrote: »

Well, I've been following this forums for loooong time already, commented a lot pre-U35.. even took a long ass break and now I'm hardly playing the Templar anymore and definitely not enjoying it as before. Fun fact is, Templar did well in cleaving department and still did fairly ok dmg overall. But now there's just no reason to play them, Arcanist can do it all better. It's just ridiculous.

Will we ever see a revert or proper change (only revert seems reasonable tbh)? Big doubt. One can hope.

My Templar Hits Hard in PVE (Don't do PVP really} I am too afraid to post my build in fear of you know what, (Nerf's lol) but it easily smokes 100k DPS and in 4-man Vet DLC content is almost always doing 45-60% of the Damage I really think folks need to stop running Relq and Nirn as a Templar and they will find out that their DPS is much Better running Deadly with another Set. Best of Luck!

Do you really think 100k DPS is a lot? Have you seen other classes? Like honestly, templar can still deal damage but it has no identity, no real place anymore. An arcanist with 5 mins of prep time can outshine a templar easily in all content (except maybe solo). It's not a matter of "can you" or "can you not" .. it's a matter of..
1. It's disgusting (sorry for my language) animations.
2. It's weak and lost it's entire identity; jabs was the golden spammable and should be still, for multiple reasons.

Templar lost their place entirely in the game, like it used to be fun to play templar, it isn't anymore. The damage portion can be fixed, like it will still deal decent dmg in good hands and right itemization. The animation is totally F'ed.. and well in trials and single target you really need that beam in execute phase to make you good.

I'm usually also one of the higher dd's on the parses and dmg meter but I need to really play my game while for example arcanist just has to tentacle tentacle beam, rinse and repeat (and if done properly outshine big time). This is in the department where Templar used to shine. I'm not even talking about DK's.

merpins · August 2023

Vahndamme wrote: »

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

Vahndamme wrote: »

Well, I've been following this forums for loooong time already, commented a lot pre-U35.. even took a long ass break and now I'm hardly playing the Templar anymore and definitely not enjoying it as before. Fun fact is, Templar did well in cleaving department and still did fairly ok dmg overall. But now there's just no reason to play them, Arcanist can do it all better. It's just ridiculous.

Will we ever see a revert or proper change (only revert seems reasonable tbh)? Big doubt. One can hope.

My Templar Hits Hard in PVE (Don't do PVP really} I am too afraid to post my build in fear of you know what, (Nerf's lol) but it easily smokes 100k DPS and in 4-man Vet DLC content is almost always doing 45-60% of the Damage I really think folks need to stop running Relq and Nirn as a Templar and they will find out that their DPS is much Better running Deadly with another Set. Best of Luck!

An arcanist with 5 mins of prep time can outshine a templar easily in all content (except maybe solo).

I'm usually also one of the higher dd's on the parses and dmg meter but I need to really play my game while for example arcanist just has to tentacle tentacle beam, rinse and repeat (and if done properly outshine big time). This is in the department where Templar used to shine. I'm not even talking about DK's.

Arcanist is a super beginner friendly class, and does have its downsides. It also shares some of its identity with Templar with both classes being carried by a beam attack, so it definitely feels like a good comparison despite it not really being one.

Fact of the matter is the class itself is underperforming because it's missing two essential pieces of its kit that were removed, essentially. Arcanist would be in a very similar place if its beam was nerfed, as an example. Zos nerfed the main keys to the damage kit of Templar, and thus it doesn't do well. They could have nerfed other aspects or abilities in the class kit, but chose to smash the things that made templar, templar.

Lumenn · August 2023

A u35 reversion would be great. And since they're now loading up skills, give back the healing/dmg on ritual. (I know, small fries, but it was a favorite of mine) Wasn't the reason it was split was due to being too loaded? Templar isn't my main, but it keeps pulling me from my sorc over the years, and deserves some love.

merpins · August 2023

Lumenn wrote: »

A u35 reversion would be great. And since they're now loading up skills, give back the healing/dmg on ritual. (I know, small fries, but it was a favorite of mine) Wasn't the reason it was split was due to being too loaded? Templar isn't my main, but it keeps pulling me from my sorc over the years, and deserves some love.

Templar and Warden are my two pain points in this game (stam warden especially). If Zos would just give them some love, I'd also love this game even more. But they're both so undertuned right now. I like Arcanist a lot... But I do wish I could do similar damage with similar sustain with Warden or templar.

Lumenn · August 2023

merpins wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

A u35 reversion would be great. And since they're now loading up skills, give back the healing/dmg on ritual. (I know, small fries, but it was a favorite of mine) Wasn't the reason it was split was due to being too loaded? Templar isn't my main, but it keeps pulling me from my sorc over the years, and deserves some love.

Templar and Warden are my two pain points in this game (stam warden especially). If Zos would just give them some love, I'd also love this game even more. But they're both so undertuned right now. I like Arcanist a lot... But I do wish I could do similar damage with similar sustain with Warden or templar.

I remember when Necro came out everyone was saying it's clunky, but I had no issue with it. For some reason arcanist isnt vibing for me. Might as well be beating my controller with oven mitts on for how smooth it feels.

merpins · August 2023

Lumenn wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

A u35 reversion would be great. And since they're now loading up skills, give back the healing/dmg on ritual. (I know, small fries, but it was a favorite of mine) Wasn't the reason it was split was due to being too loaded? Templar isn't my main, but it keeps pulling me from my sorc over the years, and deserves some love.

Templar and Warden are my two pain points in this game (stam warden especially). If Zos would just give them some love, I'd also love this game even more. But they're both so undertuned right now. I like Arcanist a lot... But I do wish I could do similar damage with similar sustain with Warden or templar.

I remember when Necro came out everyone was saying it's clunky, but I had no issue with it. For some reason arcanist isnt vibing for me. Might as well be beating my controller with oven mitts on for how smooth it feels.

For me, it does what I was hoping it would do, which is let me beam things to death. When the class was announced and we got some footage of the beam, I was really hoping it wasn't an ult and was the main spammable. It's like 70% there for me, if I could basically just use beam and never need to build crux, it'd be exactly what I was looking for. Some skills feel clunky for me, though. One of the AOEs for example sucks; I'll swap to my back bar and click the button to reapply the AOE and it just doesn't register. But I like it.

It's definitely not everyone's speed though, and it's not as fun as Templar was or as fun as Warden could be.

ElderSmitter · August 2023

Vahndamme wrote: »

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

Vahndamme wrote: »

Well, I've been following this forums for loooong time already, commented a lot pre-U35.. even took a long ass break and now I'm hardly playing the Templar anymore and definitely not enjoying it as before. Fun fact is, Templar did well in cleaving department and still did fairly ok dmg overall. But now there's just no reason to play them, Arcanist can do it all better. It's just ridiculous.

Will we ever see a revert or proper change (only revert seems reasonable tbh)? Big doubt. One can hope.

My Templar Hits Hard in PVE (Don't do PVP really} I am too afraid to post my build in fear of you know what, (Nerf's lol) but it easily smokes 100k DPS and in 4-man Vet DLC content is almost always doing 45-60% of the Damage I really think folks need to stop running Relq and Nirn as a Templar and they will find out that their DPS is much Better running Deadly with another Set. Best of Luck!

Do you really think 100k DPS is a lot? Have you seen other classes? Like honestly, templar can still deal damage but it has no identity, no real place anymore. An arcanist with 5 mins of prep time can outshine a templar easily in all content (except maybe solo). It's not a matter of "can you" or "can you not" .. it's a matter of..
1. It's disgusting (sorry for my language) animations.
2. It's weak and lost it's entire identity; jabs was the golden spammable and should be still, for multiple reasons.

Templar lost their place entirely in the game, like it used to be fun to play templar, it isn't anymore. The damage portion can be fixed, like it will still deal decent dmg in good hands and right itemization. The animation is totally F'ed.. and well in trials and single target you really need that beam in execute phase to make you good.

I'm usually also one of the higher dd's on the parses and dmg meter but I need to really play my game while for example arcanist just has to tentacle tentacle beam, rinse and repeat (and if done properly outshine big time). This is in the department where Templar used to shine. I'm not even talking about DK's.

I run VET DLC Dungeons all day. I can tell you that with a Fluid Rotation. 2 bar build Templar is not outshined whatsoever. Like i stated maybe folks running the same ole builds need to switch it up and build a build made for their Templar.

Bluestin · August 2023

It would be nice if they actually did revert Templar back to its update 35 state, but I've no real hope of that actually happening. The art style changes to Jabs aren't as important in my opinion; they're not great but serviceable.

The fact that Jabs lost a tick of damage, had their damage also directly reduced and are being effected by major evasion makes their output particularly in pvp paltry. Not to mention their hitbox issues.

Radiant oppression is oppressing the rest of Templar's abilities as if the developers took all of the damage they removed from Jabs/Backlash/Burning Light and placed it all onto that one skill. It's strange to see an execute ability meant to finish off an opponent on low health as one of their best damaging skills even when the target isn't nearly dead.

Personally I don't enjoy the idea of playing as a ranged focused Templar and prefer the melee light-spear based variant so I still use it and play the same old magicka melee Templar even with its mediocre efficacy, just for thematic purposes.

Yeah, I do miss the old Templar.

xthrshx · August 2023

I only come back to this board to check on updates to Templar. Zero interest in playing again until Templar is fun, unique, effective, and visually engaging. Seems like it’s still none of those.

merpins · August 2023

xthrshx wrote: »

I only come back to this board to check on updates to Templar. Zero interest in playing again until Templar is fun, unique, effective, and visually engaging. Seems like it’s still none of those.

Yep we still rely on our execute to do ~50% of our DPS since the other skills don't help, so yeah.

VadimAleks · August 2023

I want my magic spear back! I don't need the current "flugegeheimen"!
Just bring back the old animation. I'm not asking for any "buffs". Just bring back the animation!

xthrshx · August 2023

Oh, looks like they took away plaguebreak and Azureblight as well. Crazy.

merpins · August 2023

xthrshx wrote: »

Oh, looks like they took away plaguebreak and Azureblight as well. Crazy.

Yep, plaguebreak no longer works in PVE, and they fixed a "bug" with azureblight that let it be used with jabs, despite this "bug" being in the game for years and years. I generally play magplar so I never used those sets, but I know that I would have if I played stamplar and I'm sure a ton of templars are very upset.

Vahndamme · August 2023

Don't think Templars will ever get their patch , since this cycle is over again so no changes once again. Let's try our luck next PTS patch. But that probably won't be anything either with bug fixes coming up then??

merpins · August 2023

Vahndamme wrote: »

Don't think Templars will ever get their patch , since this cycle is over again so no changes once again. Let's try our luck next PTS patch. But that probably won't be anything either with bug fixes coming up then??

Templars did get their patch. It was U35 and it wasn't good. Hopefully we can get a resolution to this, I'd love to see their thought process and plans when it comes to class changes in the future. Right now it just seems like a grab bag, but if they gave us an outline of their internal proposed changes and structure of doing them... It would just be great to be part of the conversation somewhat when it comes to their balancing. Right now I feel like I'm yelling at the barista at Starbucks because they stopped serving my favorite drink. Not their fault, and me yelling at them isn't constructive. I'd love a real platform where I can be constructive.

the1andonlyskwex · August 2023

Dekrypted wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Because this is the millionth thread about templar changes that occurred right around Update 35, can we get any kind of more official response from the dev team?

Thought process? Hint for the future of the class? A reason why backlash was set to an impossible to reach value for pvp (their words, not mine), why the class has to have "inherent weakness" (their words, not mine), or even a reason why a buff to backlash had the team saying in the notes, "Backlash go boom" to then make backlash no longer exist?

These threads are just going to keep popping up everywhere without some kind of answer. It's not a good look guys...

The comments you're citing are more than we get about most other balance changes. Even more beyond that seems unlikely. The fact that they've already provided explanations doesn't change just because you don't like what they said.

merpins · August 2023

Dekrypted wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Because this is the millionth thread about templar changes that occurred right around Update 35, can we get any kind of more official response from the dev team?

Thought process? Hint for the future of the class? A reason why backlash was set to an impossible to reach value for pvp (their words, not mine), why the class has to have "inherent weakness" (their words, not mine), or even a reason why a buff to backlash had the team saying in the notes, "Backlash go boom" to then make backlash no longer exist?

These threads are just going to keep popping up everywhere without some kind of answer. It's not a good look guys...

Well said. I'd love to hear anything more than a "the dev team has no plans to..." response that is usually done when there is an official response. I'd like to hear in depth reasonings for the changes, and their future plans even if it's just an internal kind of shooting-the-*** kind of thing that they may be doing; unofficial stuff that they might just be discussing around the office about class changes. ANYTHING.