Templar - Revert Jabs and Backlash to Pre-U35

merpins

I'm not going to come up with ways to help templar by buffing skills, or adding new passives, or coming out with new sets that can help Templar deal more damage in PVE. Fact of the matter is this: Templar doesn't work properly because it's missing two key components that were once in the class kit. Those being a good spammable, and a good burst skill. These were Jabs and Backlash. The class doesn't need buffs to other skills or ways to compensate for what was removed. It just needs what was removed.

Why compensate for what was removed by buffing the class in ways that doesn't help... when you can just revert the changes, which would immediately fix the issues? I do not understand unless it's just stubbornness.

Syiccal

Because It would be admitting they made a mistake...Will never happen

merpins

Syiccal wrote: »

Because It would be admitting they made a mistake...Will never happen

I've said the same thing in the past, and I do agree. I hope they eventually just bite the bullet and take the loss. It would be far more appreciated by the Templar players than they think. I'm sure it would be more relief by the playerbase than people mocking them for admitting their mistake.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

merpins wrote: »

I'm not going to come up with ways to help templar by buffing skills, or adding new passives, or coming out with new sets that can help Templar deal more damage in PVE. Fact of the matter is this: Templar doesn't work properly because it's missing two key components that were once in the class kit. Those being a good spammable, and a good burst skill. These were Jabs and Backlash. The class doesn't need buffs to other skills or ways to compensate for what was removed. It just needs what was removed.

Why compensate for what was removed by buffing the class in ways that doesn't help... when you can just revert the changes, which would immediately fix the issues? I do not understand unless it's just stubbornness.

This would be a dream come true.

Sonnir

Please, for all things holy, FIX JABS!!!!!

Would love them to revert jabs to pre-u35 changes. I could actually play her again!

LukosCreyden

They'll never acknowledge how much of catastrophic failure U35 was. Therefore, they'll never fix anything they broke on U35.
I currently, genuinely want to play the game, but EVERY SINGLE playstyle I enjoyed is either nerfed to death, or straight up no longer exists in the game. My DW stamsorc died after they deleted flurry from the game. My magplar died after they deleted jabs from the game, my warden died after they turned it into a copium-fueled ice mage, no-pet magsorc died ages ago and magcro is a laughable mess of a barely-functional class.

ZDunlain

Pfff hope ZOS hear us, the buffs they gave to the class are in most of cases pointless till U35.

I can't use jabs in cyrodiil because Arcanist is giving to the group minor evasion that reduces the damage of the jabs 10%. That's an indirect nerft to Templars. We need more damage and getting bach to pre-U35 would be an absolute relief, it is not fair the amount of nerfs templar got while dk still the king and without templars (the direct counter of dk) being useless in damage and hybridization, the class got killed.

Well and no mention about the new jabs animation, a vampire staff on a divine themed class, but thats another history.

LukosCreyden

@ZDunlain you know, I tried using that style for my staff in an attempt to make the animation look less awful and guess what? It STILL looked atrocious! The way your staff just sort of clips back into existence and then morphs its way back into your character's hand is awful. Far, FAR worse than before. The person responsible for that animation (and the flurry animation) are either massively overworked, or they have no pride in their work. Imagine making those animations and genuinely thinking to yourself "I did good, these are good enough for this game. This is work I put effort in to!"

Absolutely atrocious work.

ZDunlain

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@ZDunlain you know, I tried using that style for my staff in an attempt to make the animation look less awful and guess what? It STILL looked atrocious! The way your staff just sort of clips back into existence and then morphs its way back into your character's hand is awful. Far, FAR worse than before. The person responsible for that animation (and the flurry animation) are either massively overworked, or they have no pride in their work. Imagine making those animations and genuinely thinking to yourself "I did good, these are good enough for this game. This is work I put effort in to!"

Absolutely atrocious work.

You spit facts, but imo lets first deal with the damage issue and then the appareance. I dont like the shovel that jabs are my god, I try to not to see it while using it XD.

merpins

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@ZDunlain you know, I tried using that style for my staff in an attempt to make the animation look less awful and guess what? It STILL looked atrocious! The way your staff just sort of clips back into existence and then morphs its way back into your character's hand is awful. Far, FAR worse than before. The person responsible for that animation (and the flurry animation) are either massively overworked, or they have no pride in their work. Imagine making those animations and genuinely thinking to yourself "I did good, these are good enough for this game. This is work I put effort in to!"

Absolutely atrocious work.

Yeah I've gone over the bad animation many times, both during the U35 PTS and afterwards. I'm a professional animator, and can confidently say that the new animation is just keyframes, with the system doing the work of inbetweening for the animator. It was probably done in about an hour, if not less, of work time (it'd take me about 30 minutes, depending on the program they use for animation). I'm very upset about the new animation, I've gone ad nauseam into how terrible the new animation is, and would rather not go into another rant about it again. Bad animation in games I like, especially when it's bad animation that is LITERALLY replacing my favorite animation in a game, really pisses me off.

ZDunlain

merpins wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@ZDunlain you know, I tried using that style for my staff in an attempt to make the animation look less awful and guess what? It STILL looked atrocious! The way your staff just sort of clips back into existence and then morphs its way back into your character's hand is awful. Far, FAR worse than before. The person responsible for that animation (and the flurry animation) are either massively overworked, or they have no pride in their work. Imagine making those animations and genuinely thinking to yourself "I did good, these are good enough for this game. This is work I put effort in to!"

Absolutely atrocious work.

Yeah I've gone over the bad animation many times, both during the U35 PTS and afterwards. I'm a professional animator, and can confidently say that the new animation is just keyframes, with the system doing the work of inbetweening for the animator. It was probably done in about an hour, if not less, of work time (it'd take me about 30 minutes, depending on the program they use for animation). I'm very upset about the new animation, I've gone ad nauseam into how terrible the new animation is, and would rather not go into another rant about it again. Bad animation in games I like, especially when it's bad animation that is LITERALLY replacing my favorite animation in a game, really pisses me off.[/qI dont like jabs and I dont know about

merpins wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@ZDunlain you know, I tried using that style for my staff in an attempt to make the animation look less awful and guess what? It STILL looked atrocious! The way your staff just sort of clips back into existence and then morphs its way back into your character's hand is awful. Far, FAR worse than before. The person responsible for that animation (and the flurry animation) are either massively overworked, or they have no pride in their work. Imagine making those animations and genuinely thinking to yourself "I did good, these are good enough for this game. This is work I put effort in to!"

Absolutely atrocious work.

Yeah I've gone over the bad animation many times, both during the U35 PTS and afterwards. I'm a professional animator, and can confidently say that the new animation is just keyframes, with the system doing the work of inbetweening for the animator. It was probably done in about an hour, if not less, of work time (it'd take me about 30 minutes, depending on the program they use for animation). I'm very upset about the new animation, I've gone ad nauseam into how terrible the new animation is, and would rather not go into another rant about it again. Bad animation in games I like, especially when it's bad animation that is LITERALLY replacing my favorite animation in a game, really pisses me off.

It *** me even much because if you say that that animation was done around an hour of job...

Imagine how much they care about the game compared to the crates. Big lol.

ZDunlain

Dekrypted wrote: »

The old backlash would be lovely. Any communication from zos would help alot..

I would like to see an "agenda" where you can see their actual concerns about the game in general tbh. I think that communication with the customer is key.

merpins

LukosCreyden wrote: »

They'll never acknowledge how much of catastrophic failure U35 was. Therefore, they'll never fix anything they broke on U35.
I currently, genuinely want to play the game, but EVERY SINGLE playstyle I enjoyed is either nerfed to death, or straight up no longer exists in the game. My DW stamsorc died after they deleted flurry from the game. My magplar died after they deleted jabs from the game, my warden died after they turned it into a copium-fueled ice mage, no-pet magsorc died ages ago and magcro is a laughable mess of a barely-functional class.

True. thankfully, for me, my bleed warden still works fine, if with a bit too little damage... And Arcanist is fun! Even though I know it'll probably get nerfed into something no longer fun sometime in the future, despite it not even being that strong in a real situation due to its reliance on a skill whose damage is easily reduced by any mechanic that causes you to fall over. Flurry is fine imo, though I'm not a fan of them reusing an animation for it, but I only use it on my bleed warden.

I agree, most classes are in not so great spots right now due to unnecessary changes or nerfs. Flurry and Jabs didn't need to be changed, as no one was asking for it at all. Feels like when they nerfed swallow soul for the first time in 2017. that playstyle of NB has never, NEVER worked correctly since then.

ProudMary

merpins wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@ZDunlain you know, I tried using that style for my staff in an attempt to make the animation look less awful and guess what? It STILL looked atrocious! The way your staff just sort of clips back into existence and then morphs its way back into your character's hand is awful. Far, FAR worse than before. The person responsible for that animation (and the flurry animation) are either massively overworked, or they have no pride in their work. Imagine making those animations and genuinely thinking to yourself "I did good, these are good enough for this game. This is work I put effort in to!"

Absolutely atrocious work.

Yeah I've gone over the bad animation many times, both during the U35 PTS and afterwards. I'm a professional animator, and can confidently say that the new animation is just keyframes, with the system doing the work of inbetweening for the animator. It was probably done in about an hour, if not less, of work time (it'd take me about 30 minutes, depending on the program they use for animation). I'm very upset about the new animation, I've gone ad nauseam into how terrible the new animation is, and would rather not go into another rant about it again. Bad animation in games I like, especially when it's bad animation that is LITERALLY replacing my favorite animation in a game, really pisses me off.

Ya, but we shouldn't stop reminding ZOS about how bad the jabs animation is. It's that bad. It's a night hollow stave to boot rather than the spear of light that all other Templar spear animations are.

StaticWave

I wouldn’t revert Backlash to pre U35, at least for PvP as it was doing too much damage. There needs to be a middle ground though so the ability does just enough burst damage but not too much. I’m sure @Cloudrest could provide some insight.

Reverb

Yes, please

merpins

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t revert Backlash to pre U35, at least for PvP as it was doing too much damage. There needs to be a middle ground though so the ability does just enough burst damage but not too much. I’m sure @Cloudrest could provide some insight.

It'd be nice is they started balancing pve and pvp separately, then they could bring it back to where it was for PVE at least.

tim77

havent played my templars since 35, except for writs.
would be nice to welcome them back to the family.

jabs was so satisfying, now i just have to cringe whenever i see it.

worst change ever, in a loooong list of bad changes

merpins

Dekrypted wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t revert Backlash to pre U35, at least for PvP as it was doing too much damage. There needs to be a middle ground though so the ability does just enough burst damage but not too much. I’m sure @Cloudrest could provide some insight.

I've quoted cloudrest in previous threads and they've provided great insight. If the ability was reverted, it should have its scaling adjusted to reign in the damage to not be where it was. Where it is now is hit or miss, before the recent adjustment it was just a miss, but where it was pre nerf was very strong (to say the least).

I wouldn't mind my backlash hitting like a spec bow though hahaha

Could be interesting. Backlash turning into a charge based ability that you have to proc by clicking the button after a number of charges, like U39's spec bow or bound armaments. I don't think it needs that treatment, since a third skill that does that seems overkill. Maybe it builds up damage, and once that threshold is met, then you can proc it as per spec bow or bound armaments, to make it different from them. But just as it was before U35 would be fine, at least for PVE. We're missing that burst we had, that's what we need in PVE to be competitive, along with a spammable. so though a change to the skill to make it less devastating in PVE would be fine, it shouldn't come at the expense of PVE. like current templar is.

NeuroticPixels

merpins wrote: »

It'd be nice is they started balancing pve and pvp separately, then they could bring it back to where it was for PVE at least.

ESO will continue to have upsetting and disappointing “balance changes” until PvE and PvP are tweaked separately.

Cloudrest

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn’t revert Backlash to pre U35, at least for PvP as it was doing too much damage. There needs to be a middle ground though so the ability does just enough burst damage but not too much. I’m sure @Cloudrest could provide some insight.

I dunno. There's a lot that's gone wrong with the class ever since the sweeping changes ZOS made to it in U35. Whilst the recent changes to Backlash are appreciated, it isn't enough to make a significant difference post-Arcanist release towards making Templar a good class in the meta again. It's terribly mediocre, and ZOS seems content to keep it there with mentions of "intentional weaknesses", which is laughable when a class like DK exists.

Templar lacks an identity and role anymore. It's not an amazing healer; other classes outperform it in that department, and provide better group utility towards compositions. After all, why run a Templar to give Minor Sorcery when a DK is just better and provides Minor Brutality, essentially the same buff after the hybridization changes? It has mediocre sustain and suffers skills with extremely high costs. The damage is extremely lackluster, with 3-tick jabs feeling awful to use, and hitting like a wet noodle even BEFORE you take into account that most players have Major + Minor evasion now. Burning Light hits like wet tissue paper.

There's a reason I play Nightblade now as my main class. Jabs NEED to be changed/buffed and some more power given to Templar's defensive kit before I ever bother to touch it again. Funnily enough, my brawlerblade is tankier (with much better damage and sustain) than my Templar is currently, but I think Backlash would be fine as-is if Jabs/Sweeps weren't so terribly weak.

merpins

Cloudrest wrote: »

I dunno.

Thank you for your thoughtful examination of Templar. I 100% agree. I think the magicka morph of Backlash would need a pretty strong buff to be useable, even if Jabs was reverted to pre U35 values (and animation, plz zos). A sizable increase in damage would make it somewhat competitive over minor breach. But I'd be happy just having Jabs back to where it was before. If the class had that, it'd be playable; you can make up for the lack of burst elsewhere, especially in PVE.

Tyrant_Tim

Cloudrest wrote: »

Templar lacks an identity and role anymore…

There's a reason I play Nightblade now as my main class. Jabs NEED to be changed/buffed and some more power given to Templar's defensive kit before I ever bother to touch it again. Funnily enough, my brawlerblade is tankier (with much better damage and sustain) than my Templar is currently, but I think Backlash would be fine as-is if Jabs/Sweeps weren't so terribly weak.

Glad to see someone else gets it. I’ve been saying forever that Templar’s defense is incredibly weak and being carried by Living Dark. Without it, it’s back to Honor the Dead every 4th or 5th ability, or over 33k+ resistances.

Templar has no in-class source of Evasion, they attached Major Protection to a gap closer that is a much less effective stun than Javelin. Templar has nothing to off-set the Major and Minor Cowardice available to Nightblade, speaking of which, I would love to have access to even Minor Courage, maybe added to Ritual of Retribution, or for the duration of Backlash?

As far as Sweeps, that ability needs a complete rework. From the beginning, I have never understood where the inspiration came from for the ability. Nowhere in history was there a spear fighting technique that consisted of stabbing your opponent multiple times, going for a spear thrust, is a singular attempt, that if landed is extremely deadly. I would much rather have a single spear thrust that has a tight hit box, reigning in the cleave, that hits as hard a spammable, than whatever it is we have currently.

In regards to Blazing Shield, this is what Blazing Shield should be similar to, but it makes sense now why we haven’t gotten a revised version of it yet. They gave it to Arcanist…

mmtaniac

Sun shield is just joke ability, 0 defense ability with giant costs.

Tyrant_Tim

When asked about the intent for Blazing Shield, or whether it would receive an improvement, @ZOS_Kevin relayed that there were no plans to fix it patches ago.

I understand that you have to sell new content, and that making the Arcanist awesome does just that, but after seeing that class receive a functional version of Blazing Shield, it leaves a bitter taste.


There is zero use of Blazing Shield in any form of content, the sacrifices necessary to make any build that has high enough health to get damage from it, make the build completely unplayable, as you don’t have enough resources, or actual damage, to function. It’s a massive wasted opportunity. An ability named Sun Shield should be an iconic Templar ability, either amazing defensively or offensively, it provides nothing to that effect.

Right now the class is one of two that lack a fun mechanic driven into the class, this could be solved by playing off of Sun Shield, similar to how Bound Armaments on Sorcerer, or Molten Whip received engaging mechanics, it would be nice to have something.

Maybe Sun Shield could be an ability that slotted on either bar adds block mitigation and begins to build up stacks on a successfull block of direct damage to reach an amount worth activating it, while having the Blazing Shield morph reflect a flat number based on your Weapon or Spell Damage?

merpins

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

It is weird isn't it? I guess they are feeling like revamping more of Templar later I guess? I hope it's better than the previous revamps Templar got in U35. Hence the namesake of this thread, in that we want Jabs reverted due to the change being just bad for the overall health of the class.

ApoAlaia

I've adapted limped through most abominations changes ushered by U35 but templar is just a step too far.

Not only they gutted the class, they also made it mechanically and visually unpleasant to use.

All my templars have done since is daily writs.

They used to be my go-to characters for everything, each one set up for a type of content (solo/dungeons-arenas/trials) now all three just languish because I just can't even...

Please revert the animation so I can play them again.

maxjapank

Jabs needs to be unaffected by evasion when it deals damage to the closest enemy. This part needs to be treated like single target damage. The "all other enemies" portion can still be reduced by evasion. It wouldn't solve everything, but it would make jabs strong again.

As for backlash, I've never really been a fan of the skill. I'm happy for other Templars to use this skill, and I am supportive of a buff if that is what it needs. But I just find it a really awkward skill to use. When comparing to Haunting Curse, or Merciless Resolve, or even Deep Fissure, I want a skill that just does a good amount of delayed dmg to coincide with other burst. I just don't understand why a Templar has to pump in so much dmg to get a burst. I was personally a fan of it long ago when every member of your faction could contribute to that burst, which is how the skill was initially supposed to work.

mmtaniac

Tab targeting should work with templar jabs ,if i enlightment enemy player than he will be main target of jabs, if i's casted in group. Major evasion should be ignored by jabs. Only aoe effect should be affected.

VinnyGambini

Fully agree - closest target should be affected as single target damage. Also, sunsphere should be buffed to 10%. This 2 simple changes would make templar very good again, yet not OP.

the1andonlyskwex

maxjapank wrote: »

Jabs needs to be unaffected by evasion when it deals damage to the closest enemy. This part needs to be treated like single target damage. The "all other enemies" portion can still be reduced by evasion. It wouldn't solve everything, but it would make jabs strong again.

As for backlash, I've never really been a fan of the skill. I'm happy for other Templars to use this skill, and I am supportive of a buff if that is what it needs. But I just find it a really awkward skill to use. When comparing to Haunting Curse, or Merciless Resolve, or even Deep Fissure, I want a skill that just does a good amount of delayed dmg to coincide with other burst. I just don't understand why a Templar has to pump in so much dmg to get a burst. I was personally a fan of it long ago when every member of your faction could contribute to that burst, which is how the skill was initially supposed to work.

I'm in the minority that thinks current jabs is fine. Compared to other class spammables, old jabs was massively overpowered and the changes brought it in line with what ZOS has established as the standard.

On the other hand, I totally agree about Backlash. It made sense when your allies could contribute to the damage, but it's kind of pointless now. It used to be a good skill for everyone (including healers and tanks), and now it's only good for people with strong sustained (single target) DPS, which sort of works for PvE DDs, but doesn't work at all for non DDs or most PvP.