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So does Zenimax Studios have an explanation for this situation involving a Trans employee ?
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Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As said before, I don't know if zos actions are legally correct, but they definitely leave me with some bad feelings. And I won't even comment about the transphobic statements from parts of the community. They're simply disgusting.
Companies retain the right to terminate employment for any reason and without giving notice why, it's in the agreement we all sign when we're hired. Whatever ZOS may or may not have done, I doubt was illegal.
I won't argue against that, because (as was said before) I don't have enough knowledge of US law to make a justified opinion on this. In my country it would definitely be a topic for labor court, but we also have a different legal system in europe.
Nonetheless I'm sure that there were better possibilities to deal with this matter and the actions of HR, if they happened as described (and until now I have no reason to doubt that), leave me with a bad taste.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.0 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As said before, I don't know if zos actions are legally correct, but they definitely leave me with some bad feelings. And I won't even comment about the transphobic statements from parts of the community. They're simply disgusting.
Companies retain the right to terminate employment for any reason and without giving notice why, it's in the agreement we all sign when we're hired. Whatever ZOS may or may not have done, I doubt was illegal.
I won't argue against that, because (as was said before) I don't have enough knowledge of US law to make a justified opinion on this. In my country it would definitely be a topic for labor court, but we also have a different legal system in europe.
Nonetheless I'm sure that there were better possibilities to deal with this matter and the actions of HR, if they happened as described (and until now I have no reason to doubt that), leave me with a bad taste.
Over here it's mostly just telling workers that our Employer isn't obligated to provide a reason for termination, but at the same time we have a Department of Labor, Equal Opportunity Employment etc that can go to bat against companies if we suspect the Termination was wrongful, but that's mostly if it was obvious the company fired you in retaliation over something.
Also I agree with RaikaNA this thread should not be here. 17 pages so far of ToS violations.
Edited by ArchMikem on July 20, 2023 9:17PMCP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!5 -
JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭
✭The fact that the mods have removed posts, but said nothing and left the thread open is, interesting?5 -
DragonRacer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The fact that the mods have removed posts, but said nothing and left the thread open is, interesting?
I, too, have found it curious that there appears to be moderation of some type of the thread (posts appear to be moving backwards a bit as if prior ones were deleted entirely), but otherwise it is chugging along.
And still somehow not banished to Players Helping Players or, perhaps more appropriately, the PvP section. LOL
PS5 NA. GM of The PTK's - a free trading guild (CP 500+). Also a werewolf, bites are free when they're available. PSN = DragonRacer138 -
Carcamongus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Another common argument being used here is that people are being accused of transphobia for having different views. That's only partially correct: if you just disagree with Leona's side, consider there's not enough evidence from both sides to reach a conclusion or believe this forum isn't the place to discuss this topic, among other views, you're not being transphobic. However, if you say things like being trans is a fantasy and you can't be what you aren't, then yes, that's quite transphobic. These are, of course, just examples. In sum, not agreeing with a trans person isn't transphobic, but demeaning said person for being trans is.Imperial DK and Necro tank. PC/NA
"Nothing is so bad that it can't get any worse." (Brazilian saying)13 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Also I agree with RaikaNA this thread should not be here. 17 pages so far of ToS violations.
It's your right to do so. I think this thread is fitting for this forums in general, as the topic is related to this game imo. But that's the whole point of a forum, to exchange various informations and opinions with each other. What's fitting is a matter to decide for the mods in the end, not for users like us.
Nonetheless I share your opinion about the high number of ToS violations and I'm astonished that there isn't more moderation, like the usual reminder to keep the discussion civil.
On a sidenote: If a thread accumulates 17 pages within 3 days, there is definitely some need to talk about this topic within the community.
Edited by Braffin on July 20, 2023 9:32PMNever get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.2 -
Twig_Garlicshine✭✭✭✭The fact that the mods have removed posts, but said nothing and left the thread open is, interesting?
Just guessing:
1/ Zos employees do actually care about the incident, and each other. (T/F according to your level of cynicism)
2/ Legal department wants it open to claim non-discriminatory behaviour everywhere. (T/F according to your level of cynicism)
3/ Get data on the reaction of a section of customer base (not good data since regardless of ingame pve/pvp preferences, forum users engage in forum pvp.)
4/ ...5 -
SlyReynard✭✭✭I figure they figure if they delete it they'll get negative attention. If they comment they'll get negative feedback. Keeping as hands off as possible is probably the smartest thing they can do. I certainly don't expect anyone involved with these forums to wade into this hornets nest.7
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JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭
✭I mean, ZOS makes the rules here, so they get to decide how to enforce them, but what part of this discussiond is kosher under this section of the code of conduct:
2.12 We do not allow the discussion of any legal matters involving ZeniMax Media Inc, its affiliates or any of their associated companies through ZeniMax Services and Sites.3 -
SlyReynard✭✭✭I mean, ZOS makes the rules here, so they get to decide how to enforce them, but what part of this discussiond is kosher under this section of the code of conduct:
2.12 We do not allow the discussion of any legal matters involving ZeniMax Media Inc, its affiliates or any of their associated companies through ZeniMax Services and Sites.
I absolutely agree it shouldn't be here. But here it remains.4 -
DragonRacer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I mean, ZOS makes the rules here, so they get to decide how to enforce them, but what part of this discussiond is kosher under this section of the code of conduct:
2.12 We do not allow the discussion of any legal matters involving ZeniMax Media Inc, its affiliates or any of their associated companies through ZeniMax Services and Sites.I mean, ZOS makes the rules here, so they get to decide how to enforce them, but what part of this discussiond is kosher under this section of the code of conduct:
2.12 We do not allow the discussion of any legal matters involving ZeniMax Media Inc, its affiliates or any of their associated companies through ZeniMax Services and Sites.
I don’t disagree, but there actually is precedent for it. The thread about the fan art that got stolen and turned into a Crown crate tattoo was the same bucket - legal matters involving ZOS - but they let the thread about it live. Granted, they shucked it into Community Creations because I guess “LOL fan art topic”, but it still exists: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631045/is-eso-stealing-fanart/p1
PS5 NA. GM of The PTK's - a free trading guild (CP 500+). Also a werewolf, bites are free when they're available. PSN = DragonRacer137 -
RaikaNA✭✭✭✭✭
✭According to @ZOS_GinaBruno 's post https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/60843/
The following rules have been broken on this thread:- Abusive Language and Disruptive Behavior
- Bashing and Slanderous Comments
- Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation
- Demands and Threats
- Flaming
- Hate Speech
- Inappropriate Content and Language (Real-world religion and politics)
- Naming-and-Shaming
- Rude and Insulting Comments
- Thread Bumping
- Trolling or Baiting
Why make the rules when they're not going to be enforced?Edited by RaikaNA on July 20, 2023 9:46PM15 -
Soraka✭✭✭✭✭The fact that the mods have removed posts, but said nothing and left the thread open is, interesting?
Just guessing:
1/ Zos employees do actually care about the incident, and each other. (T/F according to your level of cynicism)
2/ Legal department wants it open to claim non-discriminatory behaviour everywhere. (T/F according to your level of cynicism)
3/ Get data on the reaction of a section of customer base (not good data since regardless of ingame pve/pvp preferences, forum users engage in forum pvp.)
4/ ...
It could also be that if she signed something they may have a case against her and this is collecting data of "losses" (if people say they won't support the game any more bc of the info) for legal cases. I don't know. Purely speculation.
This is a very hot topic issues that Zos has outwardly taken a position on, ex. publicly promoting community LGBT events. I suspect they're trying to be careful with what happens now or are waiting for higher ups to decide before they close this thread or make any public moves.
I doubt she had a case because of the paperwork she signed and she figured the best she could do was come out with her story. I think probably mistakes were made on all ends.
This has become so heated that now we have people debating more hot topic issues like religion. At it's core it does look like some management sketchiness and HR ick. Regardless of the details of the medical info and handling of employees information and complaints. LGBT rights is important to many people, and I'm not saying we should not consider that. I'm just saying if it's hard to empathize for that reason, consider how the situation looks removing that detail.
I am glad that many have not had to go through this type of situation at work. It is not fun. Being treated poorly by management and HR (a hard lesson to learn - HR is not there for you, it's for the company) is a horrible thing to go through.2 -
NordSwordnBoard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭According to @ZOS_GinaBruno 's post https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/60843/
The following rules have been broken on this thread:- Abusive Language and Disruptive Behavior
- Bashing and Slanderous Comments
- Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation
- Demands and Threats
- Flaming
- Hate Speech
- Inappropriate Content and Language (Real-world religion and politics)
- Naming-and-Shaming
- Rude and Insulting Comments
- Thread Bumping
- Trolling or Baiting
Why make the rules when they're not going to be enforced?
1 Shut it down and lose customers, potentially a large number, no real way to predict that. The people with real attachment to this issue may very well speak with the wallet.
2 leave it open the people complaining it's not shut down will continue to play the game, but be mad about this thread.
3 Revenue is king, don't fool yourself. They made these rules, they are not a social contract or bill of rights. They can ignore them at will, who would stop them?Fear is the Mindkiller6 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭According to @ZOS_GinaBruno 's post https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/60843/
The following rules have been broken on this thread:- Abusive Language and Disruptive Behavior
- Bashing and Slanderous Comments
- Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation
- Demands and Threats
- Flaming
- Hate Speech
- Inappropriate Content and Language (Real-world religion and politics)
- Naming-and-Shaming
- Rude and Insulting Comments
- Thread Bumping
- Trolling or Baiting
Why make the rules when they're not going to be enforced?
Probably because this is a super sensitive topic, especially right now in the US, and this could potentially be a PR nightmare. Any attempts to shut down discussion could be viewed as them controlling the narrative, so it looks like they're being super cautious, which I think is a really smart way to go.
We're never going to all agree on the proper course of action with this topic, especially given the current polarity (sometimes extreme) of US social issues and politics, but I do think it's important to maintain an open and intelligent line of communication between those who stand on all sides of any issue. Maybe use this opportunity to talk openly with people you wouldn't normally get to talk with, and try to understand how this could impact them. You don't have to agree, but listening and understanding can go a long way toward alleviating some of that frustration everyone seems to be feeling.
I think this issue just started with one person in a managerial position who lacked the experience and training to know how to properly and legally respond to this situation, which is a little understandable given that it's a relatively new thing happening in many workplaces. The company made a mistake by rallying behind the supervisor/manager, rather than using this as an opportunity to provide her with some professional development. Mistakes happen to everyone, no matter how important their job title sounds, but mistakes are only bad if you don't learn from them. The thing that separates the dregs from the great people is acknowledging your mistakes, learning from them, and using that to move forward in a way that encourages personal and company-wide growth.
Whether people like it or not, this issue is here to stay and will be revisited time and time again. We can either continue to dig in our heels and refuse to progress, which serves no one, or we can be like water and flow to meet the needs of an evolving population/workforce.PC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero8 -
Ingenon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Off topic a bit, but I have read every post in this thread, and I think it is pretty well behaved compared to what I read in Auridon zone chat on PS/NA yesterday.4 -
JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭
✭P00tx, how dare you be wise and reasonable? This is the internet!
Seriously, great points and that theory of events sounds very plausible. And for bonus points you did it with a level head and no apparent bias.3 -
DragonRacer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Whether people like it or not, this issue is here to stay and will be revisited time and time again. We can either continue to dig in our heels and refuse to progress, which serves no one, or we can be like water and flow to meet the needs of an evolving population/workforce.
Found the Argonian.
But, seriously, the “be like water and flow” passage was very eloquently stated and I wanted to highlight it.
PS5 NA. GM of The PTK's - a free trading guild (CP 500+). Also a werewolf, bites are free when they're available. PSN = DragonRacer133 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As said before, I don't know if zos actions are legally correct, but they definitely leave me with some bad feelings. And I won't even comment about the transphobic statements from parts of the community. They're simply disgusting.
Companies retain the right to terminate employment for any reason and without giving notice why, it's in the agreement we all sign when we're hired. Whatever ZOS may or may not have done, I doubt was illegal.
I won't argue against that, because (as was said before) I don't have enough knowledge of US law to make a justified opinion on this. In my country it would definitely be a topic for labor court, but we also have a different legal system in europe.
Nonetheless I'm sure that there were better possibilities to deal with this matter and the actions of HR, if they happened as described (and until now I have no reason to doubt that), leave me with a bad taste.
You cannot fire anyone for any reason in the US. We come close, but there are reasons that you cannot fire someone such as certain types of discrimination or in retaliation for reporting labor violations, that sort of thing. If a person is fired for such a reason, they can sue for wrongful termination. It's much more narrow than in other countries, but there are absolutely wrongful terminations in the US. This is why we have a department of labor and the eeoc.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 10:25PM4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carcamongus wrote: »Another common argument being used here is that people are being accused of transphobia for having different views. That's only partially correct: if you just disagree with Leona's side, consider there's not enough evidence from both sides to reach a conclusion or believe this forum isn't the place to discuss this topic, among other views, you're not being transphobic. However, if you say things like being trans is a fantasy and you can't be what you aren't, then yes, that's quite transphobic. These are, of course, just examples. In sum, not agreeing with a trans person isn't transphobic, but demeaning said person for being trans is.
If someone is disagreeing with Leona on the basis of "people are tired of LGBT politics" or "other trans people did annoying, bad things" then that is also transphobia. If they're disagreeing because there isn't enough evidence, that's fair. If the reason they are claiming there isn't enough because they've automatically prejudged Leona as guilty of lying without an unbiased and dispassionate reviewing of her evidence because "I don't support trans" that's also transphobia.
What other transpeople are doing, and LGBT movement in general, should not have any bearing on Leona's case.
Merely disagreeing she was discriminated against does not make transphobic reasoning. However, bringing prejudice against her case on the basis of unrelated transpeople, the LGBT movement, etc is. It really depends on the reasoning.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 10:31PM8 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »For the love of God buff WW.
(If not remove the shield penalty on blazing shield in Cyro; huzzah blazplars!)
You have my vote. I miss my Blazplar lol1 -
RaikaNA✭✭✭✭✭
✭NordSwordnBoard wrote: »According to @ZOS_GinaBruno 's post https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/60843/
The following rules have been broken on this thread:- Abusive Language and Disruptive Behavior
- Bashing and Slanderous Comments
- Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation
- Demands and Threats
- Flaming
- Hate Speech
- Inappropriate Content and Language (Real-world religion and politics)
- Naming-and-Shaming
- Rude and Insulting Comments
- Thread Bumping
- Trolling or Baiting
Why make the rules when they're not going to be enforced?
1 Shut it down and lose customers, potentially a large number, no real way to predict that. The people with real attachment to this issue may very well speak with the wallet.
2 leave it open the people complaining it's not shut down will continue to play the game, but be mad about this thread.
3 Revenue is king, don't fool yourself. They made these rules, they are not a social contract or bill of rights. They can ignore them at will, who would stop them?
Were not entitled to an answer... just like whenever we report a player ingame.. were not entitled to hear the results. They specifically say it in their auto-reply: "To protect individual privacy, we do not disclose the outcome of our investigation."
This is between Leona Faren, ZOS/Bethesda/Microsoft, and the courts. I highly doubt for a moment that a large number of people are going to quit the game over a thread being closed.11 -
Stncold✭✭✭
Nothing is going to happen. This "issue" just like the recent Blizzard scandals. People will moan and groan and threaten to quit and blah blah with their wallet but ultimately not do anything and keep playing because they're addicted.NordSwordnBoard wrote: »1 Shut it down and lose customers, potentially a large number, no real way to predict that. The people with real attachment to this issue may very well speak with the wallet.
2 leave it open the people complaining it's not shut down will continue to play the game, but be mad about this thread.
3 Revenue is king, don't fool yourself. They made these rules, they are not a social contract or bill of rights. They can ignore them at will, who would stop them?
And the blizz scandals were actually legit. Way more legit than someone getting asked to resign cause they wouldn't show up to work and committing a felony in the process.
8 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Carcamongus wrote: »Another common argument being used here is that people are being accused of transphobia for having different views. That's only partially correct: if you just disagree with Leona's side, consider there's not enough evidence from both sides to reach a conclusion or believe this forum isn't the place to discuss this topic, among other views, you're not being transphobic. However, if you say things like being trans is a fantasy and you can't be what you aren't, then yes, that's quite transphobic. These are, of course, just examples. In sum, not agreeing with a trans person isn't transphobic, but demeaning said person for being trans is.
If someone is disagreeing with Leona on the basis of "people are tired of LGBT politics" or "other trans people did annoying, bad things" then that is also transphobia. If they're disagreeing because there isn't enough evidence, that's fair. If the reason they are claiming there isn't enough because they've automatically prejudged Leona as guilty of lying without reviewing her evidence with no bias because "I don't support trans" that's also transphobia.
What other transpeople are doing, and LGBT movement in general, should have any bearing on Leona's case.
Hi spartaxoxo it's me again. How are you? Anyways genuine question.
Is it fair to say that as for myself and my own opinion, that it seems like Leona made a mountain out of a mole hill? Like she got outed at work( accidentally or not) threw a big fuss over it, and started drama in the office to the point where they were looking for reasons to fire her (legitimately or Not) and they found that reason when they did her review and found that other coworkers saw her as rude and she did not complete her task. So to avoid a PR nightmare they offered her a nice severance package, that she took.
Now with all that said could it be that as a person, not a LGBTQ member, she is using her community to ensure her a bigger pay day? Knowing that her community will fight for her rights and immediately take her side without question?13 -
RaikaNA✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Nothing is going to happen. This "issue" just like the recent Blizzard scandals. People will moan and groan and threaten to quit and blah blah with their wallet but ultimately not do anything and keep playing because they're addicted.NordSwordnBoard wrote: »1 Shut it down and lose customers, potentially a large number, no real way to predict that. The people with real attachment to this issue may very well speak with the wallet.
2 leave it open the people complaining it's not shut down will continue to play the game, but be mad about this thread.
3 Revenue is king, don't fool yourself. They made these rules, they are not a social contract or bill of rights. They can ignore them at will, who would stop them?
And the blizz scandals were actually legit. Way more legit than someone getting asked to resign cause they wouldn't show up to work and committing a felony in the process.
exactly and people will keep paying for their monthly subscriptions because you know... the craft bag :O1 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭
Nothing is going to happen. This "issue" just like the recent Blizzard scandals. People will moan and groan and threaten to quit and blah blah with their wallet but ultimately not do anything and keep playing because they're addicted.NordSwordnBoard wrote: »1 Shut it down and lose customers, potentially a large number, no real way to predict that. The people with real attachment to this issue may very well speak with the wallet.
2 leave it open the people complaining it's not shut down will continue to play the game, but be mad about this thread.
3 Revenue is king, don't fool yourself. They made these rules, they are not a social contract or bill of rights. They can ignore them at will, who would stop them?
And the blizz scandals were actually legit. Way more legit than someone getting asked to resign cause they wouldn't show up to work and committing a felony in the process.
exactly and people will keep paying for their monthly subscriptions because you know... the craft bag :O
Tell me about it. I have to pay for fallout 1st just so I can keep my unlimited scrap box 😂2
This discussion has been closed.