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So does Zenimax Studios have an explanation for this situation involving a Trans employee ?
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Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »If an employer noticed someone praying and prevented them from doing so because prayer is "wasting time," would that be okay? If they got angry that they were stopped from praying, would that be entitlement?
Actually yes. Prayer in the work place and schools have been prohibited for years. You are there to work, not spread your religion or ideology. If I feel I need to pray I will do it when I go home, or on my lunch break.5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »If an employer noticed someone praying and prevented them from doing so because prayer is "wasting time," would that be okay? If they got angry that they were stopped from praying, would that be entitlement?
Actually yes. Prayer in the work place and schools have been prohibited for years. You are there to work, not spread your religion or ideology. If I feel I need to pray I will do it when I go home, or on my lunch break.
It is not prohibited to pray to yourself in the workplace. If you were praying to yourself on your lunch break and an employer told you it wasn't allowed, I'd bet you'd whistle a different tune.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 7:24PM8 -
JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Thank you for the clarity. I was just considering a post pointing out the difference between supporting something's right to exist and supporting something with your money and effort, I think some of the arguments here might come from a mismatch of definitions of "support."
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Twig_Garlicshine✭✭✭✭@spartaxoxo I am a proud Muslim Conservative. And no I can not support the LGBTQ community in any way. That being said I do agree with you that everyone should be equal under the law, yet I have not found one law or right denied for the LGBTQ community. This community shares all the legal rights and protections as any American. If not more so since I am not considered to be a protected class as a member of the LGBTQ community is considered to be a protected class with laws catered to their organization.
Religion is a protected class.Good and Evil are just different points of views.
I don't recall reading this in the holy books of any Abrahamic religion, or being espoused by any of their followers.
Even most atheists do not agree with this.
This is nihilism.12 -
SlyReynard✭✭✭Prayer has not been "prohibited in the work place for years."spartaxoxo wrote: »If an employer noticed someone praying and prevented them from doing so because prayer is "wasting time," would that be okay? If they got angry that they were stopped from praying, would that be entitlement?
Actually yes. Prayer in the work place and schools have been prohibited for years. You are there to work, not spread your religion or ideology. If I feel I need to pray I will do it when I go home, or on my lunch break.
Not sure where you are at, but where I live, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act protects my right to pray at work. So, your comment is the opposite of correct for me.3 -
DragonRacer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No idea where you’re working, but prayer at work is not only NOT prohibited, employers are actually expected to accommodate for it. HR literally makes our company review this basic employee handbook type of stuff with an online course ever year.
It’s also not that hard to look up before arguing with people: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/what-you-should-know-workplace-religious-accommodationPS5 NA. GM of The PTK's - a free trading guild (CP 500+). Also a werewolf, bites are free when they're available. PSN = DragonRacer139 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭AnduinTryggva wrote: »But in the end the reasons do not matter for how we deal with other human beings that do not fall into the two traditional sexes for whatever reason they do not fall in one of those two. It does not matter as they deserve all the respect as anyone else and it is none of ours businesses as what gender they are for whatever reason they have. There is NOTHING to debate about. It is THEIR business and THEIRS alone. It is NOT our task to tell them as what sex they should feel comfortable with. Can't understand these discussions.
Just here because I want to second this.
I can't really say much regarding the individual case at hand, because I neither know both sides of the story nor do I have much knowledge about the US legal system (it's different in my european country), but in general ALL people are humans in the end and deserve appropiate treatment based onto universal human rights.
That includes protection from persecution (which includes discrimination) as well as the right to freedom of speech. That's why I think this forum is indeed a right place for people, which are worried by behaviour set by the company developing the game they are playing, to phrase their concerns.
As said before, I don't know if zos actions are legally correct, but they definitely leave me with some bad feelings. And I won't even comment about the transphobic statements from parts of the community. They're simply disgusting.Edited by Braffin on July 20, 2023 7:49PMNever get between a cat and it's candy!
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Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.4 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭@spartaxoxo I am a proud Muslim Conservative. And no I can not support the LGBTQ community in any way. That being said I do agree with you that everyone should be equal under the law, yet I have not found one law or right denied for the LGBTQ community. This community shares all the legal rights and protections as any American. If not more so since I am not considered to be a protected class as a member of the LGBTQ community is considered to be a protected class with laws catered to their organization.
Religion is a protected class.Good and Evil are just different points of views.
I don't recall reading this in the holy books of any Abrahamic religion, or being espoused by any of their followers.
Even most atheists do not agree with this.
This is nihilism.
"Religion is a protected class." Yep that is why during the pandemic LGBTQ were allowed to have their parades, yet my family and I were not able to go to Mosque... protected8 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I_killed_Vivec wrote: »Especially when he did not lie about the said person, only told a truth that she didn't want told...yet told people..I guess.
Ever heard of a professional confidence?
Ever wondered what would happen to a doctor or a lawyer who divulged confidential information that wasn't a lie, only a truth that wasn't supposed to be divulged?
Ever wondered about the banks and credit agencies that get hacked and divulge personal information - no lies, just personal stuff you don't want divulged?
Want to be doxxed on the internet - real name, address, age, gender, sexual preference, recent sexual partners... no lies, just, you know, private stuff you don't want divulged?
We'll see all that you mentioned is illegal by law.
Disclosing private medical information about an employee is illegal.8 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭SlyReynard wrote: »Prayer has not been "prohibited in the work place for years."spartaxoxo wrote: »If an employer noticed someone praying and prevented them from doing so because prayer is "wasting time," would that be okay? If they got angry that they were stopped from praying, would that be entitlement?
Actually yes. Prayer in the work place and schools have been prohibited for years. You are there to work, not spread your religion or ideology. If I feel I need to pray I will do it when I go home, or on my lunch break.
Not sure where you are at, but where I live, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act protects my right to pray at work. So, your comment is the opposite of correct for me.
You are allowed break periods to pray, but they take up one if not more of your schedule break periods. You can not pray at anytime during the workplace or in front of anyone. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 even states that you can not disrupt coworkers or business activities with prayer. And the employer can require to make up time for said "prayer breaks".3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SlyReynard wrote: »Prayer has not been "prohibited in the work place for years."spartaxoxo wrote: »If an employer noticed someone praying and prevented them from doing so because prayer is "wasting time," would that be okay? If they got angry that they were stopped from praying, would that be entitlement?
Actually yes. Prayer in the work place and schools have been prohibited for years. You are there to work, not spread your religion or ideology. If I feel I need to pray I will do it when I go home, or on my lunch break.
Not sure where you are at, but where I live, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act protects my right to pray at work. So, your comment is the opposite of correct for me.
You are allowed break periods to pray, but they take up one if not more of your schedule break periods. You can not pray at anytime during the workplace or in front of anyone. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 even states that you can not disrupt coworkers or business activities with prayer. And the employer can require to make up time for said "prayer breaks".
You are allowed to pray anytime as long as it's not interrupting business.Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) prohibits federal agencies from discriminating against employees or applicants for employment because of their religious beliefs in hiring, firing and other terms and conditions of employment. Additionally, Title VII requires federal agencies to reasonably accommodate the religious beliefs or practices of employees or applicants unless doing so would impose an undue hardship upon the agency.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 7:58PM2 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »I_killed_Vivec wrote: »Especially when he did not lie about the said person, only told a truth that she didn't want told...yet told people..I guess.
Ever heard of a professional confidence?
Ever wondered what would happen to a doctor or a lawyer who divulged confidential information that wasn't a lie, only a truth that wasn't supposed to be divulged?
Ever wondered about the banks and credit agencies that get hacked and divulge personal information - no lies, just personal stuff you don't want divulged?
Want to be doxxed on the internet - real name, address, age, gender, sexual preference, recent sexual partners... no lies, just, you know, private stuff you don't want divulged?
We'll see all that you mentioned is illegal by law.
Disclosing private medical information about an employee is illegal.
So are you implying that being Trans is a medical condition such as gender dysphoria, schizophrenia, or bipolar? Or is it a gender identity?
Because it can not be both.3 -
JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭
✭What specific activities the prayer in question requires may effect how this plays out. Ridiculous example: if my "prayer" requires full volume yodeling and breakdancing, I might be prohibited from doing so in the laboratory. If it involves 20 seconds of quiet contemplation it would likely not even be noticed.Edited by JavaRen on July 20, 2023 8:01PM6 -
carly✭✭✭✭ESO has always been an LGBT friendly game, heck some of the NPC's are LGBT and I have no issue with that - it's representative of the world in it's natural order. If you claim your religion forbids it, then you shouldn't be playing this game. Hiding behind the 'invisible man' don't excuse bigotry or racism and that kind of attitude is not welcome here.13
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Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »SlyReynard wrote: »Prayer has not been "prohibited in the work place for years."spartaxoxo wrote: »If an employer noticed someone praying and prevented them from doing so because prayer is "wasting time," would that be okay? If they got angry that they were stopped from praying, would that be entitlement?
Actually yes. Prayer in the work place and schools have been prohibited for years. You are there to work, not spread your religion or ideology. If I feel I need to pray I will do it when I go home, or on my lunch break.
Not sure where you are at, but where I live, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act protects my right to pray at work. So, your comment is the opposite of correct for me.
You are allowed break periods to pray, but they take up one if not more of your schedule break periods. You can not pray at anytime during the workplace or in front of anyone. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 even states that you can not disrupt coworkers or business activities with prayer. And the employer can require to make up time for said "prayer breaks".
You are allowed to pray anytime as long as it's not interrupting business.Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) prohibits federal agencies from discriminating against employees or applicants for employment because of their religious beliefs in hiring, firing and other terms and conditions of employment. Additionally, Title VII requires federal agencies to reasonably accommodate the religious beliefs or practices of employees or applicants unless doing so would impose an undue hardship upon the agency.
You obviously do not know how a Muslim prays...6 -
SlyReynard✭✭✭Yeah, you can't disrupt coworkers or business activities. It's absolutely not prohibited activity.Edited by SlyReynard on July 20, 2023 8:02PM3
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DragonRacer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@spartaxoxo I am a proud Muslim Conservative. And no I can not support the LGBTQ community in any way. That being said I do agree with you that everyone should be equal under the law, yet I have not found one law or right denied for the LGBTQ community. This community shares all the legal rights and protections as any American. If not more so since I am not considered to be a protected class as a member of the LGBTQ community is considered to be a protected class with laws catered to their organization.
Religion is a protected class.Good and Evil are just different points of views.
I don't recall reading this in the holy books of any Abrahamic religion, or being espoused by any of their followers.
Even most atheists do not agree with this.
This is nihilism.
"Religion is a protected class." Yep that is why during the pandemic LGBTQ were allowed to have their parades, yet my family and I were not able to go to Mosque... protected
So, I don’t follow Pride parade news, but where were these parades held in person during 2020 Covid? I Google searched again and I see article after article about parades being cancelled because of the pandemic and replaced with virtual celebrations instead. Same thing happened with the Renaissance Festivals I like to attend.
https://www.google.com/search?q=were+there+gay+pride+parades+in+2020+during+covid&client=safari&sxsrf=AB5stBioKgqPawS1LJoE2ivUsngKJWLRfw:1689883499608&ei=a5O5ZNXhJPSEwbkP0da08Ak&oq=were+there+gay+pride+oarades+in+2020+during+covid&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIjF3ZXJlIHRoZXJlIGdheSBwcmlkZSBvYXJhZGVzIGluIDIwMjAgZHVyaW5nIGNvdmlkKgIIADIKECMYsAIYsAMYJzIIEAAYogQYsANIiQ1QAFgAcAB4AJABAJgB_wGgAf8BqgEDMi0xuAEByAEA4gMEGAEgQYgGAZAGAg&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp
I don’t go to church so I can’t reasonably comment on places of religion being open or closed during the height of the pandemic, but are you saying the government forced your mosque to remain closed? Or did they choose to do so, possibly, to protect their people? That one I’m genuinely asking because I do not know.
PS5 NA. GM of The PTK's - a free trading guild (CP 500+). Also a werewolf, bites are free when they're available. PSN = DragonRacer139 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭ESO has always been an LGBT friendly game, heck some of the NPC's are LGBT and I have no issue with that - it's representative of the world in it's natural order. If you claim your religion forbids it, then you shouldn't be playing this game. Hiding behind the 'invisible man' don't excuse bigotry or racism and that kind of attitude is not welcome here.
Now that is a strawman argument. Genuine question. Do you support child labor or slavery? If so than you shouldn't be using your phone, computer, or console. Let alone your TV. Hiding behind your virtue don't excuse your bigotry or racism?( even though I have literally never said anything racist lol) and that kind of support is not welcomed here.
You see how this is a slippery slope argument.6 -
SlyReynard✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »SlyReynard wrote: »Prayer has not been "prohibited in the work place for years."spartaxoxo wrote: »If an employer noticed someone praying and prevented them from doing so because prayer is "wasting time," would that be okay? If they got angry that they were stopped from praying, would that be entitlement?
Actually yes. Prayer in the work place and schools have been prohibited for years. You are there to work, not spread your religion or ideology. If I feel I need to pray I will do it when I go home, or on my lunch break.
Not sure where you are at, but where I live, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act protects my right to pray at work. So, your comment is the opposite of correct for me.
You are allowed break periods to pray, but they take up one if not more of your schedule break periods. You can not pray at anytime during the workplace or in front of anyone. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 even states that you can not disrupt coworkers or business activities with prayer. And the employer can require to make up time for said "prayer breaks".
You are allowed to pray anytime as long as it's not interrupting business.Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) prohibits federal agencies from discriminating against employees or applicants for employment because of their religious beliefs in hiring, firing and other terms and conditions of employment. Additionally, Title VII requires federal agencies to reasonably accommodate the religious beliefs or practices of employees or applicants unless doing so would impose an undue hardship upon the agency.
You obviously do not know how a Muslim prays...
If your prayer disrupts business activities or coworkers, that's legitimately a hardship on your employer. But your initial statement that prayer has been prohibited in the workplace for years is factually incorrect.Edited by SlyReynard on July 20, 2023 8:09PM10 -
JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭
✭If doesn't help that the laws on workplace accommodation use phrases like "undue hardship" and "reasonable accommodation" so the application is very uneven. But given the number of circumstances covered by that umbrella I'm not sure how it could be written better.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »I_killed_Vivec wrote: »Especially when he did not lie about the said person, only told a truth that she didn't want told...yet told people..I guess.
Ever heard of a professional confidence?
Ever wondered what would happen to a doctor or a lawyer who divulged confidential information that wasn't a lie, only a truth that wasn't supposed to be divulged?
Ever wondered about the banks and credit agencies that get hacked and divulge personal information - no lies, just personal stuff you don't want divulged?
Want to be doxxed on the internet - real name, address, age, gender, sexual preference, recent sexual partners... no lies, just, you know, private stuff you don't want divulged?
We'll see all that you mentioned is illegal by law.
Disclosing private medical information about an employee is illegal.
So are you implying that being Trans is a medical condition such as gender dysphoria, schizophrenia, or bipolar? Or is it a gender identity?
Because it can not be both.
I'm saying you cannot out someone.5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What specific activities the prayer in question requires may effect how this plays out. Ridiculous example: if my "prayer" requires full volume yodeling and breakdancing, I might be prohibited from doing so in the laboratory. If it involves 20 seconds of quiet contemplation it would likely not even be noticed.
I've seen Muslims in a previous workplace take a small wash basin into the bathroom to clean themselves and then take go outside. Not much different to the people taking smoke breaks in terms of time away from the desk.6 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DragonRacer wrote: »I don’t go to church so I can’t reasonably comment on places of religion being open or closed during the height of the pandemic, but are you saying the government forced your mosque to remain closed? Or did they choose to do so, possibly, to protect their people? That one I’m genuinely asking because I do not know.
If I recall correctly, there were different rules places and events had to follow based off it was indoor or outdoor activity. They were difficult to follow for many, resulting in closures in favor of doing things virtually.
It had absolutely nothing to do with religion not being a protected class, and everything to do with public safety as being indoors around a lot of people was deemed more of a public safety hazard than outdoors.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 20, 2023 8:21PM8 -
SlyReynard✭✭✭Some states did forbid in-person worship due to covid. Some limited the size, some left churches etc alone. Really depended on the state or even town.5
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DragonRacer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »DragonRacer wrote: »I don’t go to church so I can’t reasonably comment on places of religion being open or closed during the height of the pandemic, but are you saying the government forced your mosque to remain closed? Or did they choose to do so, possibly, to protect their people? That one I’m genuinely asking because I do not know.
If I recall correctly, there were different rules places and events had to follow based off it was indoor or outdoor activity. They were difficult to follow for many, resulting in closures in favor of doing things virtually.
It had absolutely nothing to do with religion not being a protected class, and everything to do with public safety as being indoors around a lot of people was deemed more of a public safety hazard than outdoors.
The way he worded his post and the anger you can feel behind it, it feels like he thinks the Pride parades were somehow protected/allowed to take place (if they even did) when he and his family could not attend their mosque.
Which, I could maybe understand the bitterness if it were evenly distributed towards EVERYONE who still got to do activities while masked. I notice a lack of anger towards anyone else such as all of the college football games that still took place with limited/spread out seating and the open seats filled with cardboard cut-outs to try and make things seem less scary and not-normal (that was my first year out of decades not attending a Gator game, but I did support my team by purchasing one of those cardboard cut-outs that served as my proxy at the games that season).
Would the “those darn LGBT parades still happened” be the same level of animosity had the Renaissance Faires not largely closed that year? “Those darn Rennies!”PS5 NA. GM of The PTK's - a free trading guild (CP 500+). Also a werewolf, bites are free when they're available. PSN = DragonRacer139 -
jcasini222ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭For the love of God buff WW.
(If not remove the shield penalty on blazing shield in Cyro; huzzah blazplars!)9 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As said before, I don't know if zos actions are legally correct, but they definitely leave me with some bad feelings. And I won't even comment about the transphobic statements from parts of the community. They're simply disgusting.
Companies retain the right to terminate employment for any reason and without giving notice why, it's in the agreement we all sign when we're hired. Whatever ZOS may or may not have done, I doubt was illegal.CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!4 -
tyrobia✭✭✭✭As said before, I don't know if zos actions are legally correct, but they definitely leave me with some bad feelings. And I won't even comment about the transphobic statements from parts of the community. They're simply disgusting.
Companies retain the right to terminate employment for any reason and without giving notice why, it's in the agreement we all sign when we're hired. Whatever ZOS may or may not have done, I doubt was illegal.
Based upon the laws of your state and the terms of your contract, companies can generally terminate you for any reason or for no reason at all - unless the reason for termination is in violation of your constitutional rights. That's the whole point of this thread.5 -
RaikaNA✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread has been completely taken over by transphobes. They have predictably flooded the zone with a Gish Gallop of bigoted statements, ad hominem attacks, appeals to authority, both-sidesism, and bad faith questions. Ultimately they feel it is a win-win for them. Either they get the thread locked and then feel that they have won the day, or it remains open and their vile and hateful comments are too.
You can't argue with rightwingers because they are not acting in good faith. They cannot be made to feel ashamed so they cannot be persuaded by decency or treating people with respect. They don't care about the truth so facts can't sway them. Their arguments are just intended to distract and irritate so that those they are arguing with will react strongly. It is very difficult because people that actually care about other people are compelled to react to these statements. It can be difficult or even impossible to just "let it go" because these sorts of statements cause real-world harm. I really appreciate everyone in this thread that have been trying to combat these bigots and I know there are people reading this thread who appreciate it as well.
ZoS needs to react to the allegations made by Leona, and they need to edit and/or remove the transphobic comments in this thread as soon as possible.
So you want ZOS to censor those who have an opposing viewpoint? Calling us transphobic is a terrible way to debate about the issue.
What ZOS needs to do is DELETE this entire thread... It doesn't BELONG in here. I don't know why ZOS is delaying it, but it needs to happen. This thread has broken almost all of the rules, and nothing is being done about it.Edited by RaikaNA on July 20, 2023 9:09PM20
This discussion has been closed.