Maintenance for the week of December 2:
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• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 2, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 4, 6:00AM EST (11:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 4, 6:00AM EST (11:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
This was supposed to be the QoL patch FIX HEALSTACKING IN PVP
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Tyrant_Tim✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Healing should not scale from stats that benefit damage as well (unless self heals from classes maybe). Why are some DPS getting higher heals than dedicated healers due to the messed up attribute scaling? This should never happen.
100% second this.
Max Magicka or Max Stamina (whichever is highest) should be the determining base stat check for heals, that way Arena solo play doesn’t get completely ruined because of PvP.1 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I feel like it's just a common sense idea to prevent stacking the same heal on one player. Changing how stat scaling works would be another exercise in reinventing the wheel (on a 10 year old game) that I feel most of us are weary of at this point.
We always have to hear from at least one person in every one of these threads "ballgroups will adapt so it doesn't matter." I'm pressing X to doubt that they would recover so easily from removing the ability to stack 6 radiating regens and vigors.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP2 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »I feel like it's just a common sense idea to prevent stacking the same heal on one player.
It's only "common sense" in PVP, unfortunately ZoS has yet to make the common sense decision to balance PVP and PVE separately so until they do that, any heal nerfs in PVP will heavily impact the ability of PVE healers and their associated groups to do their jobs - and we only have 1-2 healers in PVE instead of 6 depending on if it's a dungeon or trial group. Back during the U35 debates PVE healers said that the same heal could be limited to stacking twice (one for each healer in a trial group) without gutting PVE healing but ZoS did ZoS and we got all of this instead *waves hand motioning to U35-U39*1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »After testing, I found out that new monster set applies it’s heal debuff in an AoE, as long as you can fill the ball group healer with negative effects and dots, the entire group is going down due to that AoE 35% heal reduction.
Ballgroups run 6-10 healers.
This is not a problem that can be fixed with sets!
This is just wrong though. They don't run 6-10 healers, they run 1 or 2 healers. It's just that every single non-healer either has Echoing or Radiating slotted, and if they're a Warden, Polar Wind. With how juiced their stats are from group sets, those abilities slotted on every member is more than enough healing.
Right, so there are usually only two people with reliable purges in the group.
Remember when Plaguebreak first came out, and people were afraid to purge?
Seems like so long ago....
RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.0 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »After testing, I found out that new monster set applies it’s heal debuff in an AoE, as long as you can fill the ball group healer with negative effects and dots, the entire group is going down due to that AoE 35% heal reduction.
Ballgroups run 6-10 healers.
This is not a problem that can be fixed with sets!
This is just wrong though. They don't run 6-10 healers, they run 1 or 2 healers. It's just that every single non-healer either has Echoing or Radiating slotted, and if they're a Warden, Polar Wind. With how juiced their stats are from group sets, those abilities slotted on every member is more than enough healing.
Right, so there are usually only two people with reliable purges in the group.
Remember when Plaguebreak first came out, and people were afraid to purge?
Seems like so long ago....
It's simple, ballgroups are running enough shielding between barriers and the arcanist shield ult that even a 12x Plaguebreak isn't enough to kill a single one of them most of the time, and their massive stacked overheals bring them instantly back up to full. Then the next healer instantly pops their barrier resheiding the entire group. It's absurd and fundamentally broken gameplay. ZOS must act. Looking at you @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam. The state here is absolutely unacceptable.2 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »After testing, I found out that new monster set applies it’s heal debuff in an AoE, as long as you can fill the ball group healer with negative effects and dots, the entire group is going down due to that AoE 35% heal reduction.
Ballgroups run 6-10 healers.
This is not a problem that can be fixed with sets!
This is just wrong though. They don't run 6-10 healers, they run 1 or 2 healers. It's just that every single non-healer either has Echoing or Radiating slotted, and if they're a Warden, Polar Wind. With how juiced their stats are from group sets, those abilities slotted on every member is more than enough healing.
Right, so there are usually only two people with reliable purges in the group.
Remember when Plaguebreak first came out, and people were afraid to purge?
Seems like so long ago....
It's simple, ballgroups are running enough shielding between barriers and the arcanist shield ult that even a 12x Plaguebreak isn't enough to kill a single one of them most of the time, and their massive stacked overheals bring them instantly back up to full. Then the next healer instantly pops their barrier resheiding the entire group. It's absurd and fundamentally broken gameplay. ZOS must act. Looking at you @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam. The state here is absolutely unacceptable.
Oh, but they did act. They are releasing a new monster set that will help you get your Barrier back up exponentially faster, the more players your ball group kills.RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.4 -
Lebkuchen✭✭✭✭✭I don't know what you are playing, but i have never had problems blowing up "ballgroups". The bigger their group is, the easier they are to kill. You just have to know how to do it. If you struggle on your own, get a friend to help you. If you can't kill them, please ignore them, or put up some siege. Don't run after them like a puppy and blow up all your friends.
Ballgroups have strengths and weaknesses, like every other playstyle too.
ESO is a "massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG)". There are plenty of one shot ego shooters out there if you like that kind of playstyle more. You are not the first and will not be the last to bully an entire playstyle, but with your logic we should all fight naked fistfights 1v1... Maybe that would be fun for 5 minutes, but that's not the game i bought.
(edited for typo)Edited by Lebkuchen on July 14, 2023 6:32PM0 -
Twig_Garlicshine✭✭✭✭https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AEfykDNkeIUWFvcUcxf1_YRP3Db8k_t4RLAn5nS30b8/edit#gid=1565922224
Never ceases to amaze me how much automated game play is encouraged by Zos.
Hot/buff stacking within group makes so much of the game not rely on any thought or performance.
Personally, I just log out when Ball groups log in because the lag spikes to an unplayable level as soon as they show up.
Edit: The more I think about it, the more bizarre I find the design of this game compared to others..
Automate heals and damage to remove a majority of choice, thinking, skill level while making manual things that should be automated like
light attacks and heavy attacks. (Heal stacking, buff stacking, dmage procs etc).
It is no wonder Ball groups resemble the Pixel stackers who turn everything into tank/spank the target dummies.
Removes the need for critical decision making while in combat.Edited by Twig_Garlicshine on July 14, 2023 7:30PM0 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don't know what you are playing, but i have never had problems blowing up "ballgroups". The bigger their group is, the easier they are to kill. You just have to know how to do it. If you struggle on your own, get a friend to help you. If you can't kill them, please ignore them, or put up some siege. Don't run after them like a puppy and blow up all your friends.
Ballgroups have strengths and weaknesses, like every other playstyle too.
ESO is a "massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG)". There are plenty of one shot ego shooters out there if you like that kind of playstyle more. You are not the first and will not be the last to bully an entire playstyle, but with your logic we should all fight naked fistfights 1v1... Maybe that would be fun for 5 minutes, but that's not the game i bought.
(edited for typo)
"Never had any issue killing ballgroups"?! Puh-leaze. That's the kind of thing someone who's never spend any serious time in Cyrodiil might say. "Strengths and weaknesses". Um... K.
"Bullying" ballgroups?!?! [snip]
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 15, 2023 10:23AM4 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »I don't know what you are playing, but i have never had problems blowing up "ballgroups". The bigger their group is, the easier they are to kill. You just have to know how to do it. If you struggle on your own, get a friend to help you. If you can't kill them, please ignore them, or put up some siege. Don't run after them like a puppy and blow up all your friends.
Ballgroups have strengths and weaknesses, like every other playstyle too.
ESO is a "massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG)". There are plenty of one shot ego shooters out there if you like that kind of playstyle more. You are not the first and will not be the last to bully an entire playstyle, but with your logic we should all fight naked fistfights 1v1... Maybe that would be fun for 5 minutes, but that's not the game i bought.
(edited for typo)
"Never had any issue killing ballgroups"?! Puh-leaze. That's the kind of thing someone who's never spend any serious time in Cyrodiil might say. "Strengths and weaknesses". Um... K.
"Bullying" ballgroups?!?! [snip]
They had "ballgroups" in quotations, so it's pretty clear this person probably hasn't fought a real ballgroup and just calls every semi-coordinated group a ballgroup.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 15, 2023 10:23AM3 -
igormaxbr03✭✭✭I think if group has more them 6 player the heal should be reduced by 10% and some group sets dont work for 12 player in pvp make the group run same set twice ,Heal only goes for people on the group as well that was very positive when happen on thoses teste ,still people cry and complain about0
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Lebkuchen✭✭✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »"Never had any issue killing ballgroups"?! Puh-leaze. That's the kind of thing someone who's never spend any serious time in Cyrodiil might say. "Strengths and weaknesses". Um... K.
"Bullying" ballgroups?!?! [snip]
This is just like all the other discussions like: Tanks are annoying and have to go, heal is too strong, snipers are unfair, gankers and proc sets are unfair, nightblades are too strong, invisibility is unfair, DKs are unkillable, Wardens are too strong, nerf siege because it's way too strong, buff siege because it's not strong enough, this ability does too much damage, this set is too strong, keeps turn too fast, 20 siege is too much, heavy attack builds are broken, this mythic is overpowered, this class is useless, the hammer is stupid, the map is too big for my lame horse, why are there bridges, blablabla...
You could just play the game and choose your fights. You can't win every fight in a game like ESO. Not all the time. Not in Cyrodiil. If you want to kill ballgroups, then build yourself a bomber, watch how they play and find the right moment to kill them. No group is invincible. If you can't do it on your own, because the group is really really good, then build your own small scale bomber group and hunt them down. If your small scale bomber group is too weak, then build your own ballgroup. Or just annoy them with a tank. Keep them in fight with a nightblade. Burn their siege. Siege them. Call them out in zonechat... There are way too many discussions about all of this in the forums already, and more than enough ways to counter ALL kinds of playstyles. And if you run into the best of the best organized 12 player groups, with players who are able to kill zergs on their own when their ballgroup is not playing, then you should be able to accept that they are just better players at the moment.
The biggest problem in Cyrodiil (besides performance, bugs and the low population) is the big difference between experienced, good players and people who just don't know how to play. Really play. This game has so much to offer but doesn't really teach you how to play PvP. Someone has to show you. But ESO lost almost the whole PvP playerbase because they neglected Cyrodiil for way too long. We don't have enough mediocre players anymore. We don't have enough good guilds where you can learn what's going on in Cyrodiil. We don't even have good streamers anymore. Maybe a hand full. So most players are either good, or just not good enough. And the good groups often don't attack each other anymore, they just watch each other farm noobs. So people are getting destroyed, don't know why, and start crying: This is unfair! This should not be possible! The game is broken! They are a cheaters! ...
We just don't have enough players in Cyrodiil at the same time to counter all the different playstyles all the time. When there are 2 really good nightblades in a keep, they can keep 1-2 bars busy for a while and take the keep in the end, because everyone is sick of being ganked all the time and just goes somewhere else. If there is a small sweaty dk group, they can run around trees and stones and keep an outpost under attack for hours, because nobody is able to kill them. A tank zerg with enough rez ultis can just take keeps whithout killing anyone, just because they are more players and can turn the flags because of it. We need more players in Cyrodiil, so every playstyle has it's counterpart nearby. And please believe me when i say it again, every playstyle has strengths and weaknesses. Every enemy can be killed in this game. But Cyrodiil is too empty. It was different, Cyrodiil was designed for a bigger war. But at the moment it's almost dead. Even during a PvP event with all pop locked alliances. So some mechanics like low pop bonus don't work like they should. And fights can be very unbalanced and not as much fun as they could be.
Now i wrote too much again, nobody will ever read it, and tomorrow someone will open a new discussion about how dots should not stack or something... No wait, damage is allowed to stack, but heal should not be for some reason, right?
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 15, 2023 10:24AM4 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭If the trade off was no stacking same HoTs or DoTs that would be a deal worth taking. And asking for HoT stacking removal is not even in the same ballpark as "X ability/proc killed me, nerf X." I don't see how anyone can defend 100% uptime of 10k+ heals per second in these ball groups just from everyone spamming the same ability. If I see a ballgroup in a keep and 30 pugs "fighting" them it's clear to me the pugs are the underdog in that situation, and most experienced players would agree.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP1 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »"Never had any issue killing ballgroups"?! Puh-leaze. That's the kind of thing someone who's never spend any serious time in Cyrodiil might say. "Strengths and weaknesses". Um... K.
"Bullying" ballgroups?!?! [snip]
Now i wrote too much again, nobody will ever read it, and tomorrow someone will open a new discussion about how dots should not stack or something... No wait, damage is allowed to stack, but heal should not be for some reason, right?
No. There is a fundamentally broken game mechanic and it needs to be addressed. These groups are completely, mathematically, unkillable without massive overwhelming force, way, way, beyond what is reasonable from an even crudely balanced game due to the broken mechanics that they exploit. These kind of longwinded head-in-the-sand tirades don't help matters at all. We need to be able to acknowledge problems when they are real. This one is real and the vast, vast, majority of the community can see it and agrees. I can only assume, when comments like yours get made, that they are either coming from someone who doesn't PVP at all, or who is a member of one of these ballgroups and has a vested interest in defending their "playstyle". These groups that abuse fundamentally broken game mechanics are absolutely one of the core reasons why PVP is in such a bad state and not able to retain players. Yes, the lack of major updates is a serious problem, but it is not the only one, and refusing to acknowledge this one doesn't help anything.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 15, 2023 10:24AM4 -
Lebkuchen✭✭✭✭✭I disagree. Calling normal gameplay a broken mechanic, and insulting everyone who dares to disagree with you, doesn't make your exaggerations more true.
It doesn't matter how many hots a group is spamming. If you stun them, and all your damage hits them in a split second, they will die. All you have to do is find the right moment and be able to do deal enough damage at the same time. And put your debuffs on them at the right time. 2-4 players can kill every group, if they work together and know what they are doing.
30 players in a pug/zerg/badly organized group/whatever can't do this, because they are not organized well enough. They make half the group stun immune at the wrong time, don't bomb at the same time, hit their buttons like they are standing in front of a boss-dummy, put their negates where they are useless, buffs and debuffs are all over the place (if they even have any), and they move like a bunch of NPCs... And if only one brain afk PvE player with 18k health blows up, the whole zerg will explode. Fights like that are not fair, you are right. But why should they be? The organized group put a lot of work into planning, learning and training together as a team. And they have experienced groupleaders. Of course they will have an advantage.
Ballgroups are not destroying PvP. Hots are not destroying PvP. Just like all the other scapegoats i mentioned in my "longwinded head-in-the-sand tirade", they are a normal part of the game. The PvP community left because of the gamebreaking performance issues and bugs. That's what really broke this game. And i don't know if it can recover, just because the servers work better for a couple of weeks or months before they start breaking down again.
Overusing words like abuse, broken, unkillable, gamebreaking and all that exaggerated, attention seeking nonesense, combined with thoughtless demands all the time does not help anyone. It takes the focus away from the real problems, and in many cases created new ones.3 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭.
This is simply, objectively untrue and completely at odds with what any serious player who doesn't run in one of these groups will tell you about the current state of PVP.
It is absolutely a broken abusive mechanic and defending it as vigorously as you are is exceedingly suspicious.Edited by acastanza_ESO on July 15, 2023 12:05AM2 -
SimonThesis✭✭✭✭✭
✭I disagree. Calling normal gameplay a broken mechanic, and insulting everyone who dares to disagree with you, doesn't make your exaggerations more true.
It doesn't matter how many hots a group is spamming. If you stun them, and all your damage hits them in a split second, they will die. All you have to do is find the right moment and be able to do deal enough damage at the same time. And put your debuffs on them at the right time. 2-4 players can kill every group, if they work together and know what they are doing.
30 players in a pug/zerg/badly organized group/whatever can't do this, because they are not organized well enough. They make half the group stun immune at the wrong time, don't bomb at the same time, hit their buttons like they are standing in front of a boss-dummy, put their negates where they are useless, buffs and debuffs are all over the place (if they even have any), and they move like a bunch of NPCs... And if only one brain afk PvE player with 18k health blows up, the whole zerg will explode. Fights like that are not fair, you are right. But why should they be? The organized group put a lot of work into planning, learning and training together as a team. And they have experienced groupleaders. Of course they will have an advantage.
Ballgroups are not destroying PvP. Hots are not destroying PvP. Just like all the other scapegoats i mentioned in my "longwinded head-in-the-sand tirade", they are a normal part of the game. The PvP community left because of the gamebreaking performance issues and bugs. That's what really broke this game. And i don't know if it can recover, just because the servers work better for a couple of weeks or months before they start breaking down again.
Overusing words like abuse, broken, unkillable, gamebreaking and all that exaggerated, attention seeking nonesense, combined with thoughtless demands all the time does not help anyone. It takes the focus away from the real problems, and in many cases created new ones.
This exactly! People need to learn to group, build, and organize for pvp or continue to die to groups that do.Edited by SimonThesis on July 14, 2023 11:56PM2 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Forums being weird.
There is absolutely no reasonable defense of a stacking 12 instances radiating, 12 instances of vigor, a 8 man barrier rotation with constant gibbering shield ult. To say it isn't completely broken and abusive to run is crazy.Edited by acastanza_ESO on July 15, 2023 12:01AM6 -
SimonThesis✭✭✭✭✭
✭There's nothing broken or exploitative about it. Zos encourages groups with hot stacking. Just join a group with some healers in it, its not that hard.Edited by SimonThesis on July 15, 2023 12:11AM0 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SimonThesis wrote: »Just join a group with some healers in it, its not that hard.
As if that is even remotely comparable to what these groups are doing. Absolutely absurd.5 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sometimes it is hard to tell if people lack pvp experience or are trying to mess with people on the forums.
If you have a lot of pvp experience you understand that an extremely coordinated ball group (assigned sets, skills, roles, ultra stacked, multiple healers, rotating barriers, snare and root immunity, all good support sets, dedicated rapids, 12 rapid regen + 12 echoing vigor) is impossible to kill by less coordinated people.PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden3 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Battle Spirit could fix this easily without affecting PvE.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP1 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭gariondavey wrote: »Sometimes it is hard to tell if people lack pvp experience or are trying to mess with people on the forums.
If you have a lot of pvp experience you understand that an extremely coordinated ball group (assigned sets, skills, roles, ultra stacked, multiple healers, rotating barriers, snare and root immunity, all good support sets, dedicated rapids, 12 rapid regen + 12 echoing vigor) is impossible to kill by less coordinated people.
The hybridization of builds has lead to everyone going with over 30-40K health now on DPS builds since they don't need to waste many points in Magicka or Stamina. Combine that with every player in Cyrodiil has the Undeath Vampire passive and usually 25-30k+ resistances and it already takes a lot of damage to drop players even without group heals.
They need to reevaluate a number of things that have gone way out of balance as of late.
2 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The way i see it is that ball group are like the score run trial trifecta guild group of pvp while other group are either like non trifecta trial guild group or pug group. The comparison is made via the level of organisation and build crafting going toward the succes of the activity.
Its obvious one of these as an advantage that the others do not.
I think its perfectly fine that they have an advantage because of the amount of organisation and training needed to be a good ball group. Its not like other players cannot form new group and train to realise similar feat if willing.
Can some stuff be ajusted? Sure but it should not be widespread change that would affect more than pvp in anyway.
And no i do not play in a ball group. Im the guy that get killed when one such group look in my direction.1