This was supposed to be the QoL patch FIX HEALSTACKING IN PVP

acastanza_ESO

The only, literally only QOL I care about is removing the egregious abuse of game mechanics that is ballgrouping.
The #1 problem with these groups is their abusive healstacking.
This combined with Earthgore, Barrier, and now the absurdly strong Arcanist shield ult is literally breaking the game.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Nerhesi

A little less emotional but I agree - and I'm coming at this with no interest in the ball group situation.

I think the core combat system was an poor choice as a whole. The fact that you pools dont matter because everyone just sustains back up in a few seconds is the problem. The game revolves constantly being able to "reset". Whether small scale, 1vX, pillar/tree humping - you name it.

The "attrition" mechanic needs to be built into the game at the core level - reduce healing (Edit: and shields), and sustain every 5 seconds you're taking damage is required. You want to actually attract people to this game? People need to die in pvp - regardless of skill level, after X time. You can't have pvp be constantly hopping around resetting - whether it is 1vX, duels, BGs or ball groups

SimonThesis

Hot stacking is sooo last year anyway. Organization beats less organization, organizing isnt an exploit. They organize the same way vet trial groups do and they have very clever theory crafters. Most ballgroups these days now have a 30k barrier (60k outside of cyro) and a gibbering shield on the entire group every 10 seconds plus 4-5 healers. The real problem is that it only takes 3 ballgroup dps to kill a stack of 20 in a second.

OtarTheMad

Well, some of the issue is that sets get brought in to deal with ball groups, and for some time when Plaguebreak, Dark Convergence, and Hrothgar were introduced they were easier to deal with. These sets get brought in but then people get them nerfed and then the only players using them after that are the groups they were meant to punish.

Heal stacking is a problem, could put it into Battle Spirit so PvE is not affected. However, even if they dealt with heal stacking you'd still have groups with constant shields.

Uvi_AUT

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The only, literally only QOL I care about is removing the egregious abuse of game mechanics that is ballgrouping.
The #1 problem with these groups is their abusive healstacking.
This combined with Earthgore, Barrier, and now the absurdly strong Arcanist shield ult is literally breaking the game.

[snip]

Why not just form a bigger Ball? Its literally how AvAvA is supposed to be played.

[edited to remove quote]

acastanza_ESO

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The only, literally only QOL I care about is removing the egregious abuse of game mechanics that is ballgrouping.
The #1 problem with these groups is their abusive healstacking.
This combined with Earthgore, Barrier, and now the absurdly strong Arcanist shield ult is literally breaking the game.

[snip]

Why not just form a bigger Ball? Its literally how AvAvA is supposed to be played.

The game simply doesn't work that way anymore. Any, even marginally less exploitative group doesn't have a chance due to the sets they've seen fit to introduce that scale damage to number of players, the egregious pull-bomb meta, and the truly disgusting level of healing that they can maintain that can be many times even larger groups damage outputs. There is a reason ballgroups don't fight other ballgroups. Because the gameplay is fundamentally broken by what they're doing.

[edited to remove quote]

Seraphayel

I mean maybe they tried to tackle this with the new Cyrodiil set that reduces healing by up to 35%?

Turtle_Bot

Seraphayel wrote: »

I mean maybe they tried to tackle this with the new Cyrodiil set that reduces healing by up to 35%?

The problem is they are trying to use sets to fix a mechanics issue [snip]

They need to fix the mechanics like they did for sorc shields in the past. Using sets allows those same sets to be used by the same groups that those sets are supposed to counter to make those groups even stronger again. Using sets just doesn't work when trying to fix a balance issue caused by game mechanics.

[edited for bashing]

gronoxvx

Thing is if they remove heal stacking, you can say goodbye to zergs. My bomber main will be happy with this though.

FantasticFreddie

They tried to nuke group size and also make it so you could only heal members of your group, they kept a shrunken group size, but reverted the healing changes after a couple of patches because it SUCKED

Seraphayel

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I mean maybe they tried to tackle this with the new Cyrodiil set that reduces healing by up to 35%?

The problem is they are trying to use sets to fix a mechanics issue [snip]

They need to fix the mechanics like they did for sorc shields in the past. Using sets allows those same sets to be used by the same groups that those sets are supposed to counter to make those groups even stronger again. Using sets just doesn't work when trying to fix a balance issue caused by game mechanics.

I mean this reasoning can be applied to each and every change they make. If A can make use of it, B can as well. Doesn’t matter if it’s changing mechanics or sets.

I mean the set not only reduces healing on your target by up to 35%, but also your own healing by up to 15%. So the set has a downside, too. I don’t know how it’s calculated, but if it’s in full effect and your enemy uses it as well, that means 50% less healing overall (or is it not addictive but multiplicative?).

[edited to remove quote]

Turtle_Bot

Seraphayel wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I mean maybe they tried to tackle this with the new Cyrodiil set that reduces healing by up to 35%?

The problem is they are trying to use sets to fix a mechanics issue [snip]

They need to fix the mechanics like they did for sorc shields in the past. Using sets allows those same sets to be used by the same groups that those sets are supposed to counter to make those groups even stronger again. Using sets just doesn't work when trying to fix a balance issue caused by game mechanics.

I mean this reasoning can be applied to each and every change they make. If A can make use of it, B can as well. Doesn’t matter if it’s changing mechanics or sets.

I mean the set not only reduces healing on your target by up to 35%, but also your own healing by up to 15%. So the set has a downside, too. I don’t know how it’s calculated, but if it’s in full effect and your enemy uses it as well, that means 50% less healing overall (or is it not addictive but multiplicative?).

I mean, yes, they can, but look at what happened with dark convergence, plaguebreak, vicious death, RoA and all the other "anti- group" sets they've made in the past. They have all been incorporated into and abused by ball groups much more than they have to counter those groups.

The only set that has been balanced and isn't abused by ball groups is rallying cry, but that set doesn't help the average unorganized group either.
It's why they need to look into fixing the game mechanics. It worked for nerfing sorcerers shields, much more than sets did to counter sorcs shields, so might as well give it a go.

[edited to remove quote]

SimonThesis

Rallying cry is a standard healing set on one of the 4-5 healers.

asttreb17_ESO

ball groups get rewarded by being top of the game so much pleasure while playing but very few while upsetting a lot of players ability to play the game or enjoy playing(been happening a lot in game update after update). This is a common occurrence in this game anything you try to do nothing is made easy to enjoy based on one increasing his skill level or the amount of time put in to get good no rewards. The amount of calculations in game and the distance from main server determines who wins. First come first served on server calculations so nothing appears in real time on screen which we react to.

x99KungFuTacosx

SimonThesis wrote: »

Hot stacking is sooo last year anyway. Organization beats less organization, organizing isnt an exploit. They organize the same way vet trial groups do and they have very clever theory crafters. Most ballgroups these days now have a 30k barrier (60k outside of cyro) and a gibbering shield on the entire group every 10 seconds plus 4-5 healers. The real problem is that it only takes 3 ballgroup dps to kill a stack of 20 in a second.

HoT stacking is still a major problem that is fixable. Every ball group you see has 4+ healers all running radiating regen, orbs, echoing vigor, among other things. Personally I'd take it a step further and put a .5 sec cooldown on burst heals (e.g. combat prayer) too, so you can't be healed by two different combat prayers at the same time.

Organized groups should still wreck non- organized groups, but right now they're tanky to a ridiculous level while still being able to put out a ton of damage, like you said. I don't know how to fix the damage part without putting a group size damage modifier in battle spirit (don't think that's going to happen). But at least we could do something about the healing.

fizl101

x99KungFuTacosx wrote: »

HoT stacking is still a major problem that is fixable. Every ball group you see has 4+ healers all running radiating regen, orbs, echoing vigor, among other things. Personally I'd take it a step further and put a .5 sec cooldown on burst heals (e.g. combat prayer) too, so you can't be healed by two different combat prayers at the same time.

I'm not sure that would be liked by trial groups

Varana

That should be a general guideline.

Every time someone proposes a "solution" to some problem, ask how that would affect the other side of the river as well.
That includes thinking about healers and tanks, not just damage.

DrNukenstein

#4mangrouplimitinallcontent

x99KungFuTacosx

fizl101 wrote: »

x99KungFuTacosx wrote: »

HoT stacking is still a major problem that is fixable. Every ball group you see has 4+ healers all running radiating regen, orbs, echoing vigor, among other things. Personally I'd take it a step further and put a .5 sec cooldown on burst heals (e.g. combat prayer) too, so you can't be healed by two different combat prayers at the same time.

I'm not sure that would be liked by trial groups

It's not going to happen, but if they wanted to implement it in battle spirit or campaign rules they could. PvP already has different rule sets for damage shields, healing, damage taken, proc sets disabled, etc.

Tommy_The_Gun

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638012/pts-patch-notes-v9-1-0#latest

Colovian Highlands General
1 – Adds 1487 Offensive Penetration
2 – When you kill a Player, gain a stack of Blood Debt for 0.5 seconds. When Blood Debt expires, you and up to 5 Group members within 28 meters of you gain 15 Ultimate per stack of Blood Debt.

I am more and more convinced that "Ball Groups" are indeed the target audience. All of the other solo/randoms running around in PvP (that are btw. the bulk of playerbase) are just the background.

I mean if it was not true, ZOS would deal with Ball Groups long time ago, right ? And it is not like there are no solutions at all. Players are giving feedback to ZOS on a silver platter. Battle Spirit group-size based de-buff to dmg, healing ,passives etc), restriction to how many same sourced positive effects you can get (healing) etc. Some sets already have group scaling. Pale Order ring or Rallying Cry sets for example already do scale with group size and get weaker the larger the group is.

ShadowPaladin

There is a simple solution against heal stacking and the abusive use of shield skills - make it so that while in Cyro and in combat there the resources needed for those skills increase by 100% each time the skill is used.

Example:

Heal Skill says in the tooltip: 2,500 mana needed

-> Player goes into a fight and has aggro
--> Heal is used for the 1st time .. cost of 2,500 mana (100%)
--> still in fight ... Heal is used a 2nd time .. cost of 5,000 mana (200%)
--> still fighting ... Heal used for a 3rd time .. cost of 7,500 mana (300%)
--> still fighting ... Heal used for a 4th time .. cost of 10,000 mana (400%)
--> and so on ...

----> Player looses aggro because of diying or winning .. cost will return to 2,500 mana (100%)


At a certain point the heal wouldn't be useable anymore, since the cost needed would exceed the mana pool available . The same mechanic could also be used for other skills like shield.

But I must admit that for such a mechanic to work well, the devs would have to fix the *Stuck in Combat BUG* first .

olsborg

Yea ballgroups is seriously ruining a lot of ppls fun in pvp. Id be very glad to see them gone.

asttreb17_ESO

necro ulti being reduced and ulti generations set coming that will make them happy theer always on the run when they have no ulti or waiting for proc set timers, its like the more we ask for somthing or complain about something we get it but has the opposite out come and both sides get buffed at the same time catering for everyone.

Tyrant_Tim

After testing, I found out that new monster set applies it’s heal debuff in an AoE, as long as you can fill the ball group healer with negative effects and dots, the entire group is going down due to that AoE 35% heal reduction.

acastanza_ESO

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

After testing, I found out that new monster set applies it’s heal debuff in an AoE, as long as you can fill the ball group healer with negative effects and dots, the entire group is going down due to that AoE 35% heal reduction.

Ballgroups run 6-10 healers.
This is not a problem that can be fixed with sets!

VileDeeds77

They should make Battle spirit cut healing output for healing skills that heal more than yourself with group sizes bigger than 4 by 1/3 and cut it in half for groups bigger than 8, same for shield stacking! Shields should be untouched, except for what battle spirit already does, in groups of 4, cut by 1/3 with groups from 5-8 and cut it in half for groups bigger than 8.

CameraBeardThePirate

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

After testing, I found out that new monster set applies it’s heal debuff in an AoE, as long as you can fill the ball group healer with negative effects and dots, the entire group is going down due to that AoE 35% heal reduction.

Ballgroups run 6-10 healers.
This is not a problem that can be fixed with sets!

This is just wrong though. They don't run 6-10 healers, they run 1 or 2 healers. It's just that every single non-healer either has Echoing or Radiating slotted, and if they're a Warden, Polar Wind. With how juiced their stats are from group sets, those abilities slotted on every member is more than enough healing.

Tyrant_Tim

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

After testing, I found out that new monster set applies it’s heal debuff in an AoE, as long as you can fill the ball group healer with negative effects and dots, the entire group is going down due to that AoE 35% heal reduction.

Ballgroups run 6-10 healers.
This is not a problem that can be fixed with sets!

This is just wrong though. They don't run 6-10 healers, they run 1 or 2 healers. It's just that every single non-healer either has Echoing or Radiating slotted, and if they're a Warden, Polar Wind. With how juiced their stats are from group sets, those abilities slotted on every member is more than enough healing.

Right, so there are usually only two people with reliable purges in the group. If two people are wearing that monster set, there is going to be very good uptime on heal prevention.

We’re actually going to start seeing people die this patch and I can’t express how long this defensive meta feels like it’s been.

acastanza_ESO

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

After testing, I found out that new monster set applies it’s heal debuff in an AoE, as long as you can fill the ball group healer with negative effects and dots, the entire group is going down due to that AoE 35% heal reduction.

Ballgroups run 6-10 healers.
This is not a problem that can be fixed with sets!

This is just wrong though. They don't run 6-10 healers, they run 1 or 2 healers. It's just that every single non-healer either has Echoing or Radiating slotted, and if they're a Warden, Polar Wind. With how juiced their stats are from group sets, those abilities slotted on every member is more than enough healing.

It is true though, go log a fight with a real ballgroup. And I don't mean a 12 person semi-organized group that Zone pugs falsely call a ballgroup. A real one. It is quite literally 6-10 healers. They'll be mostly in support sets, sure, but their primary role is, in fact, healing and buffing not damage. There are only ever 2-4 actual damage dealers in a real ballgroup. My guild fights them constantly and has strategies to win (with extreme effort and a lot of luck), but the logs do not lie. They do actually run that many healers/"supports".

CameraBeardThePirate

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

After testing, I found out that new monster set applies it’s heal debuff in an AoE, as long as you can fill the ball group healer with negative effects and dots, the entire group is going down due to that AoE 35% heal reduction.

Ballgroups run 6-10 healers.
This is not a problem that can be fixed with sets!

This is just wrong though. They don't run 6-10 healers, they run 1 or 2 healers. It's just that every single non-healer either has Echoing or Radiating slotted, and if they're a Warden, Polar Wind. With how juiced their stats are from group sets, those abilities slotted on every member is more than enough healing.

Right, so there are usually only two people with reliable purges in the group. If two people are wearing that monster set, there is going to be very good uptime on heal prevention.

We’re actually going to start seeing people die this patch and I can’t express how long this defensive meta feels like it’s been.

I wouldnt be so sure. For a lot of the good ball groups, you could cut their healing in half and they'd likely still flatten 80% of Cyrodiil. Ballgroups currently output way more healing than they need.

Seraphayel

Healing should not scale from stats that benefit damage as well (unless self heals from classes maybe). Why are some DPS getting higher heals than dedicated healers due to the messed up attribute scaling? This should never happen.