Refusing to turn in relics to stall the game

Weckless · July 2023

I don't think they should get in trouble but it is kind of a stupid thing to do. Id personally be ready to end it and get a balanced game but thats just me.

Sarannah · July 2023

Personally I do not consider this griefing or disruptive behaviour, but I do find it strange someone would even want to do this. As finishing the game, and re-queueing for the next round would be more beneficial. For anything really: kills, AP, achievements, daily BG quests, etc.

Once I was placed in a game where we were winning very easily(4vs4vs4) and the group asked if they should finish the game or hold the relic. Found it strange, and asked them to capture the relic, as I was only there for the complete a battleground endeavour. Luckily they did.

Djennku · July 2023

OP, you can report them for griefing and let ZoS handle them. That's extremely frustrating, and as long as you don't engage with those people any further, they will be taken care of. It is definitely against the code of conduct, so it is something you are completely in the right to be reporting.

Grizzbeorn · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

...is not playing the game mode as intended.

But neither is queuing for a match then going AFK, gimping the team and unbalancing the match, which is what allows the relic-holding shenanigans in the first place.

Why is nobody denouncing the AFKers?

derkaiserliche · July 2023

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

...is not playing the game mode as intended.

But neither is queuing for a match then going AFK, gimping the team and unbalancing the match, which is what allows the relic-holding shenanigans in the first place.

Why is nobody denouncing the AFKers?

The first problem is of course the ones, that didnt accept the game, which results in a 2 player team sometimes. This could only be avoided with different queue systems, like the dungeon one.

Some player directly leave the game, as soon as they see it wont be a win for them, which isnt okay as well.

But i would never blame a team going afk in the base, when the winning team stalls the game just to mock the other teams.
Especially of course not, if its a 2 player team.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

...is not playing the game mode as intended.

But neither is queuing for a match then going AFK, gimping the team and unbalancing the match, which is what allows the relic-holding shenanigans in the first place.

Why is nobody denouncing the AFKers?

...Because they went afk as a response to being griefed. AFK rules are not intended to force someone being bullied into playing the way someone else wants them to play, they are there to stop people from sabotaging normal gameplay.

And I absolutely did denounce AFK as a general thing. As I said from my first post, both stalling like this and going afk are generally regarded as against the rules in other games.

I've personally never played a pvp game where either action is generally allowed. You are supposed to play the objective and try to win as a bare minimum to any pvp game. So, that the other people in the match can get the experience they signed up for. Forcibly disrupting others game experience like this (and these are both significant disruptions that make the game unpleasant for the people forced to deal with it or leave and not get their earned rewards) is not allowed. That's especially true when it's intended to cause discomfort, as in this case when it's clearly being done to rub in the other team cannot possibly win.

So I'm interested to see if this would be considered griefing by ESO.

Tan9oSuccka · July 2023

I do this sometimes. Not to troll, but to limit test a build/rotation and also farm a little extra AP.

The whispers are pretty enjoyable though, people get heated.

Carcamongus · July 2023

I had no idea you got AP from killing people in BGs, only from finishing the match. Unless you don't, in which case farming kills could be just for twisted fun or for achievements. Go figure.

What the OP described has happened to me once, except it was a member of my team. It was infuriating and I was befuddled, as we needed that relic to win. This was a long time ago, but I don't think the teams were as horribly balanced as 2v2v4 and the individual holding the relic didn't get to kill a lot, if anyone. Since I can't kill someone from my own team, I guess I didn't deserve to win.

Redguards_Revenge · July 2023

derkaiserliche wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

A mismatch is also not the fault of the stalling team.

kringled_1 wrote: »

But rather than quickly ending to hopefully get a more challenging match,

That point has been addressed multiple times in this thread, as to the reason why people might resort to taunting other teams to get them to fight instead of being shunted back into the queue for the next match.
They want to be actively playing rather than just sitting there, waiting for the queue to pop.

<snip> I am a on a pretty high pvp rank compared to most players, but i would just get farmed if i rush in vs 4 premade pvpers (with also high ranks) . Every pvp player with some experience know if a game is winnable or not.

The game turned out to be an afk game for 7 minutes for my 2 man team and the other 2 player team without any fights happening. So you cant tell anyone, that they did it to have some more nice fights.

The queue during these events is normally 30sec to like 7minutes btw, so stalling out a game for no reason, doesnt make any sense at all. But if some of guys agree with that of unsportsmanlike behaviour, its alright. Then we might just be different types of persons in terms of age and honor. I would never disrespect another team in this way, especially not if i would be in a 4 player team against a 2 player team.

<snipped for bashing/baiting>

Tab out of eso, open a new tab and do something else and tab back in every 5 minutes. If they aren't going to end the game, why care? they already won. Remember that PVP isn't fair in eso. Truth be told it's never been since the introduction of proc sets. No need to worry, eso is just a game.

It's why I abandoned redguard and templar. I had to become a vampire. I lost my skin color and templar vampire isn't really lore friendly.

Thanks to ZoS though, they removed the one problem in NB that I was having to make it S tier no-bull god.

So now I play pvp as NB some race. The good news is that I can use trash gears due to the disadvantage templar redguard gave me and finally have that execute hit I was missing so badly. I am vampire race. With some previous vestige race buffs on me that are not redguard.

I can't wait when everybody is NB in BGs and everybody is hidden in deathmatch.

ArchMikem · July 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Kill them. It's a PvP mode. If they're holding your relic hostage and you want to win, kill them. If you can't kill them to take the relic, then you don't deserve the win. Holding the relic hostage is just as valid a strategy as running around in stealth spamming the pickup option until someone either makes a mistake or gets bored of interrupting.

"If you can't defeat a player then you don't deserve to win."

Game mode is CTF, not Death match.

Holding an enemy relic hostage is just playing defense. If you want to score, kill them.

It's also not playing the Objective, since the Objective is to CAPTURE, the Relic, not play keep away with your numerical advantage.

MreeBiPolar · July 2023

derkaiserliche wrote: »

Some player directly leave the game, as soon as they see it wont be a win for them, which isnt okay as well.

This is the biggest pile of bull in the whole thread (and maybe even in the whole forum). No one has to keep playing when they clearly can't win, even if there wasn't a penalty for conceding.

Holycannoli · July 2023

If a team is doing that to stall the game so they can farm kills then hang out in your spawn and prevent them from getting them. Passive aggression is sometimes worth it.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 2023

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Kill them. It's a PvP mode. If they're holding your relic hostage and you want to win, kill them. If you can't kill them to take the relic, then you don't deserve the win. Holding the relic hostage is just as valid a strategy as running around in stealth spamming the pickup option until someone either makes a mistake or gets bored of interrupting.

"If you can't defeat a player then you don't deserve to win."

Game mode is CTF, not Death match.

Holding an enemy relic hostage is just playing defense. If you want to score, kill them.

It's also not playing the Objective, since the Objective is to CAPTURE, the Relic, not play keep away with your numerical advantage.

Except keeping the relic out of the enemy hands is literally playing the objective.

Katlefiya · July 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Kill them. It's a PvP mode. If they're holding your relic hostage and you want to win, kill them. If you can't kill them to take the relic, then you don't deserve the win. Holding the relic hostage is just as valid a strategy as running around in stealth spamming the pickup option until someone either makes a mistake or gets bored of interrupting.

"If you can't defeat a player then you don't deserve to win."

Game mode is CTF, not Death match.

Holding an enemy relic hostage is just playing defense. If you want to score, kill them.

It's also not playing the Objective, since the Objective is to CAPTURE, the Relic, not play keep away with your numerical advantage.

Except keeping the relic out of the enemy hands is literally playing the objective.

Even if capturing the relic would literally end the game for you with an instant win?

ArchMikem · July 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Kill them. It's a PvP mode. If they're holding your relic hostage and you want to win, kill them. If you can't kill them to take the relic, then you don't deserve the win. Holding the relic hostage is just as valid a strategy as running around in stealth spamming the pickup option until someone either makes a mistake or gets bored of interrupting.

"If you can't defeat a player then you don't deserve to win."

Game mode is CTF, not Death match.

Holding an enemy relic hostage is just playing defense. If you want to score, kill them.

It's also not playing the Objective, since the Objective is to CAPTURE, the Relic, not play keep away with your numerical advantage.

Except keeping the relic out of the enemy hands is literally playing the objective.

No one is earning points, no one is playing the objective.

Capture Relic = Earn a Point = Playing the Objective.

OBJnoob · July 2023

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Kill them. It's a PvP mode. If they're holding your relic hostage and you want to win, kill them. If you can't kill them to take the relic, then you don't deserve the win. Holding the relic hostage is just as valid a strategy as running around in stealth spamming the pickup option until someone either makes a mistake or gets bored of interrupting.

"If you can't defeat a player then you don't deserve to win."

Game mode is CTF, not Death match.

Holding an enemy relic hostage is just playing defense. If you want to score, kill them.

It's also not playing the Objective, since the Objective is to CAPTURE, the Relic, not play keep away with your numerical advantage.

Except keeping the relic out of the enemy hands is literally playing the objective.

No one is earning points, no one is playing the objective.

Capture Relic = Earn a Point = Playing the Objective.

He gets it Arch, he's just trolling you. He's trolling you on the topic of trolling. You gotta laugh at that.

There is no real defense of the scenario being discussed... No strategic or tactical reason to do it. The person in question was on the winning team and decided to spend extra time rubbing it in the loser's faces.

We can talk about the problems with OBJ modes or the que times all day. It's completely irrelevant.

Being a nice person when everything is coming up roses doesn't count for anything. Everybody is nice when things are going their way. Put someone in a position they don't like if you want to see their true character.

In this case people are mad at the game and taking it out on other players. And the players falling victim are supposed to, I guess, have sympathy for these toxic vets and fall in line with their vision of the game and recommended changes. So that we can ALL be happy. Cuz they know best.

-shrug- I know how I'll be voting.

Arcanasx · July 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Kill them. It's a PvP mode. If they're holding your relic hostage and you want to win, kill them. If you can't kill them to take the relic, then you don't deserve the win. Holding the relic hostage is just as valid a strategy as running around in stealth spamming the pickup option until someone either makes a mistake or gets bored of interrupting.

"If you can't defeat a player then you don't deserve to win."

Game mode is CTF, not Death match.

Holding an enemy relic hostage is just playing defense. If you want to score, kill them.

It's also not playing the Objective, since the Objective is to CAPTURE, the Relic, not play keep away with your numerical advantage.

Except keeping the relic out of the enemy hands is literally playing the objective.

No one is earning points, no one is playing the objective.

Capture Relic = Earn a Point = Playing the Objective.

He gets it Arch, he's just trolling you. He's trolling you on the topic of trolling. You gotta laugh at that.

There is no real defense of the scenario being discussed... No strategic or tactical reason to do it. The person in question was on the winning team and decided to spend extra time rubbing it in the loser's faces.

We can talk about the problems with OBJ modes or the que times all day. It's completely irrelevant.

Being a nice person when everything is coming up roses doesn't count for anything. Everybody is nice when things are going their way. Put someone in a position they don't like if you want to see their true character.

In this case people are mad at the game and taking it out on other players. And the players falling victim are supposed to, I guess, have sympathy for these toxic vets and fall in line with their vision of the game and recommended changes. So that we can ALL be happy. Cuz they know best.

-shrug- I know how I'll be voting.

We can talk about the problems with OBJ modes or the queue times all day. It's completely relevant.

Being a nice person when everything is coming up roses doesn't count for anything. Objective players can be "nice" when things are going their way. Yet put them in a position they don't like if you want to see their true character.

In this case certain people are mad at the game and taking it out on other players who notice the incredible flaws in the way these objective modes are designed... And the DM players who have had their DM queue removed so objective players can have more objective games are supposed to, I guess, have sympathy for these toxic super-casuals, and fall in line with their vision of the game and recommended changes. So that we can ALL be happy. Cuz they know best, like previously supporting the removal of the DM queue so that DM players would be held hostage to random queues that are 85% objectives. Because objective players would rather have shorter queue times at the expense of DM players having their own DM mode to play.

Its interesting that the last time players could vote for which BG mode they wanted to play in, the majority of BG matches ended up being DM, I wonder why...-shrug-

OBJnoob · July 2023

@Arcanasx I mean... I'm kinda the poster boy for OBJ modes, if only because I'm loud and obnoxious. I think I can claim the title of Strongest Defender. But even I don't like how "you guys" got shafted. And for the record I don't work for ZOS, so blaming me or "us" for your problem isn't very accurate.

As far as WHY so many games, during the period of which you speak, turned out DM-- well, you go ahead and wonder. The real reason is well documented and discussed. And it was this flaw in the system that led us to where we are now. Which is that 85% of your matches are OBJ.

It's almost like DM only represents 15% of available modes. Boy, you're really getting screwed huh?

Anyway... The reason why they don't just try to do it over again the right way is also well documented and discussed. And again, it isn't "our" fault.

But you see all OBJ modes as being the same even though they aren't, which is why 15% DM rate seems low to you. So it's no real surprise that you would also lump the people who do enjoy OBJ modes into the larger category of "things that did me wrong." And it's no surprise that you don't give a crap about their time or fun because you honestly think they somehow stole yours.

-yawn-

I dunno man. I respect the whole "turn the tables" angle you're taking with me and my words... But this discussion isn't about OBJ players dragging DM players through anything, is it? It's about some person who decided to gloat by holding onto a relic they easily could've ended the game with. So maybe this isn't the right time or place for your jaded, prejudice, and inaccurate view of history.

Arunei · July 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

derkaiserliche wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Kill them. It's a PvP mode. If they're holding your relic hostage and you want to win, kill them. If you can't kill them to take the relic, then you don't deserve the win. Holding the relic hostage is just as valid a strategy as running around in stealth spamming the pickup option until someone either makes a mistake or gets bored of interrupting.

You cant kill a 4 man premade pvp group, when you are in a 2 man team. Of course i dont "deserve" the win in a 2v2v4 team, its about the fact they they stall the game out for 7 minutes just to show off, how "easy" they won.

You shouldn't be queueing into group queue solo then. If you didn't queue into group then they weren't a premade and they were entirely killable.

Some people want PvP, and when there's no DM Queue, no semblance of balance in some of the modes, and 20min+ long queues at times, they'll extend the objective modes to squeeze in more PvP time.

Sorry but this is a really weak argument. If these people actually wanted real PvP they wouldn't waste time in the manner they were and trying to bait the other team into being farmed. They'd have finished the match as soon as possible to get into another game.

How is it "PvP time" if there isn't any PvP going on? If one team is literally just sitting there not actually engaging with the game hoping the other players will keep running to them? That's not people looking to get more PvP, especially when it's clear the other team isn't a challenge. That, again, is just farming. So let's not make excuses and just admit that's what's going on.

Arcanasx · July 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Arcanasx I mean... I'm kinda the poster boy for OBJ modes, if only because I'm loud and obnoxious. I think I can claim the title of Strongest Defender. But even I don't like how "you guys" got shafted. And for the record I don't work for ZOS, so blaming me or "us" for your problem isn't very accurate.

As far as WHY so many games, during the period of which you speak, turned out DM-- well, you go ahead and wonder. The real reason is well documented and discussed. And it was this flaw in the system that led us to where we are now. Which is that 85% of your matches are OBJ.

It's almost like DM only represents 15% of available modes. Boy, you're really getting screwed huh?

Anyway... The reason why they don't just try to do it over again the right way is also well documented and discussed. And again, it isn't "our" fault.

But you see all OBJ modes as being the same even though they aren't, which is why 15% DM rate seems low to you. So it's no real surprise that you would also lump the people who do enjoy OBJ modes into the larger category of "things that did me wrong." And it's no surprise that you don't give a crap about their time or fun because you honestly think they somehow stole yours.

-yawn-

I dunno man. I respect the whole "turn the tables" angle you're taking with me and my words... But this discussion isn't about OBJ players dragging DM players through anything, is it? It's about some person who decided to gloat by holding onto a relic they easily could've ended the game with. So maybe this isn't the right time or place for your jaded, prejudice, and inaccurate view of history.

I mean... I'm kinda the poster boy for OBJ modes, if only because I'm loud and obnoxious. I think I can claim the title of Strongest Defender. But even I don't like how "you guys" got shafted. And for the record I don't work for ZOS, so blaming me or "us" for your problem isn't very accurate.

Meanwhile, objective players have complained about DM players and blamed them for ruining their objective matches far more often than the reverse.

As far as WHY so many games, during the period of which you speak, turned out DM-- well, you go ahead and wonder. The real reason is well documented and discussed. And it was this flaw in the system that led us to where we are now. Which is that 85% of your matches are OBJ.

Yes, the original BG population by far favored DM (especially before forced random) and they were sacrificed in order to cater to objective favoring players. Long ago, before forced random mode existed, there were complaints on the forums because of how rare and infrequent objective modes used to be; because they had difficulty getting the achievements/rewards associated with those objective modes.

It's almost like DM only represents 15% of available modes. Boy, you're really getting screwed huh?

And? There's still a significant overlap between the objective modes (and the players who prefer those modes) in contrast to how DM plays. If they were to add several more versions of DM (40 kills, 50 kills, healing is half as effective for this, damage is doubled for that , etc), would this then justify any kind of DM mode having a more than a 50% of being chosen? And yes, DM players have been massively screwed over.

Or better yet, what if they were to separate all the queues? You and I both know that there's still more than 15% of BG players who would prefer playing DM, and so if they were to separate the queues again, DM games would pop more often than all the others and objective players would have to wait longer in queues than DM players.

Anyway... The reason why they don't just try to do it over again the right way is also well documented and discussed. And again, it isn't "our" fault.

Yet historically it seemed that a significant portion of the objective playerbase (which used to be barely existent years ago at least on PCNA) were in favor of not separating DM queue from objectives after random only was implemented. The only reason why they would ever want that is because by holding DM players hostage, it would inflate the queue to decrease the time they have to wait, while the DM players generally preferred to have a separate queue even if it meant longer queue times. Its the objective players who once (or perhaps still do) want to force DM players to come play in objective modes, yet also throw an avalanche of complaints toward them at the same time for not playing the way they want them to.

Edit: Its not really the OBJ players fault, but there was a large outcry on the forums during the test that happened where they gave us the choice again and objective matches became rare again, and ZOS decided to revert the change. And you know they did that in favor of the OBJ players at the expense of DM players.

But you see all OBJ modes as being the same even though they aren't, which is why 15% DM rate seems low to you. So it's no real surprise that you would also lump the people who do enjoy OBJ modes into the larger category of "things that did me wrong." And it's no surprise that you don't give a crap about their time or fun because you honestly think they somehow stole yours.

Nice double standards. Objective players have lumped up DM players using negative generalizations a lot. And its obvious that a significant portion of objective players don't care about the time or fun of DM players either, and act like DM players stole their "win" by not hard focusing objectives, so what's your point?

Just because DM might make up 15% of the matches, doesn't mean that there's only 15% of the BG population that only wants to play DM. Considering that there's actually only 3 different categories (Deathmatch, land grab, and flag games) shouldn't there be one third of a chance for DM at least? Let's stop pretending that objective players are sympathetic towards DM players having to wait in queue for 20 plus minutes only for the match to end in 4 minutes with barely any PvP happening.

-yawn-

Yes, the hypocrisy is quite tiring.

I dunno man. I respect the whole "turn the tables" angle you're taking with me and my words... But this discussion isn't about OBJ players dragging DM players through anything, is it? It's about some person who decided to gloat by holding onto a relic they easily could've ended the game with. So maybe this isn't the right time or place for your jaded, prejudice, and inaccurate view of history.

It's almost as if its a symptom of what is wrong with the way BGs currently function; you have different kinds of players at opposite ends and they are basically too incompatible to be placed in the same instanced PvP match.

And in your previous post you were insinuating that a certain kind of player was the "problem" (sounds kind of prejudiced) and considering your history in these kinds of discussions regarding BGs, it can be viewed as if you're blaming these kinds of players and putting them at fault for something that really isn't their fault.

OBJnoob · July 2023

Yes I was insinuating that a certain type of player is to blame. The type of player who holds onto the last relic instead of turning it in so that he can grief the opposition. That's hardly a generalization. To be clear I am very specifically talking about YOU, Camera, and whoever the OP was talking about. 3 people. 3.

I don't have a problem with DM players. I don't even have a problem with DM. I just don't think it's very sportsmanlike to kill-farm lesser players.

You dragging all this historic baggage and anger up does the rest of the work and "generalizing" for me. I don't even have to label you or point a finger. We all see what you stand for.

Apparently... There aren't enough players to merit having separate ques without elongating que times to the point of ruining something already struggling. Those aren't my words. And it isn't the same as all OBJ players collectively forcing you into this predicament.

Just because I frequently show up in threads to say "nah, OBJ modes are cool, please don't change them to make them more DMy," doesn't mean I don't want you to have what you want. I just want what WE want to stop coming at the expense of eachother.