Maarselok is totally not op

techprince · July 2023

This is No-CP with 26-30k armor.

Seriously, balance that shiet already.

Soarora · July 2023

techprince wrote: »

Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.

Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.

techprince · July 2023

Soarora wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.

Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.

Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.

Soarora · July 2023

techprince wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.

Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.

Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.

Nope. I use 0 of those.

techprince · July 2023

Soarora wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.

Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.

Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.

Nope. I use 0 of those.

Then it shouldn't matter.

Soarora · July 2023

techprince wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.

Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.

Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.

Nope. I use 0 of those.

Then it shouldn't matter.

It does. As I said, I don’t like playing no proc. I’d rather deal with CP than do no cp no proc. BGs should not become no-proc too. Especially because I doubt it’d do anything but decrease the population; no-proc doesn’t seem very popular.

techprince · July 2023

Soarora wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.

Absolutely not. I don’t enjoy IC and Cyro as much as I’d like to because theres no no-cp proc anymore.

Vat Ice Staff + DW + Maarselok abuser spotted.

Nope. I use 0 of those.

Then it shouldn't matter.

It does. As I said, I don’t like playing no proc. I’d rather deal with CP than do no cp no proc. BGs should not become no-proc too. Especially because I doubt it’d do anything but decrease the population; no-proc doesn’t seem very popular.

Oh no-proc camp is very popular.

IncultaWolf · July 2023

Another masters duel wield/vate ice staff abuser

Janni · July 2023

I'm not really sure I completely agree your point of view. From what I see it hits for about 3k when fully buffed in a burst combo. Any skill/proc will hit hard when the user performs their intended attack combo. So in this case they probably put a lot of effects on you (which admittedly IS pretty easy), buffed up, and then performed a heavy weave into a skill. In the end it looks like it hit about as hard as an ultimate but spread out over 4 seconds.

I guess you could maybe argue that the cooldown could be a tad longer, say maybe 15 seconds. At least then they be forced to wait a bit for their next burst rather than going right back into the rotation immediately.

Stncold · July 2023

Maarselok's does need a nerf but it's the only thing keeping melee builds for non-DK's/wardens/NB's actually playable in pvp so other options need to be viable for the other classes first. Won't happen though because we're dealing with a company that is so incompetent they can't balance their game with only 7 classes worth a damn to the point that two are just straight up unusable and another has like one non awful build.

Reverb · July 2023

It’s really well telegraphed and dodgeable. It’s pretty easy to not get hit by it.

Syiccal · July 2023

Reverb wrote: »

It’s really well telegraphed and dodgeable. It’s pretty easy to not get hit by it.

I'm not so sure it's that easily telegraphed or dogebal in a bg etc with everything else going on, even in a duel I almost never miss with maarselock. I will say I've not used it for a while though o be fair

StaticWave · July 2023

Reverb wrote: »

It’s really well telegraphed and dodgeable. It’s pretty easy to not get hit by it.

Assuming everyone's just going to spam dodge roll, which costs stamina, to avoid getting hit by a heavy attack, which costs no resources and even give you back stam/mag.

I don't think the argument that it's "well telegraphed and dodgable" is credible, considering the set doesn't even go on cooldown if you dodge the heavy attack as the proc condition is "When you deal damage with a heavy attack". Who's stopping your opponent from just spamming heavy attacks for no cost until one connects?

techprince · July 2023

Janni wrote: »

I'm not really sure I completely agree your point of view. From what I see it hits for about 3k when fully buffed in a burst combo. Any skill/proc will hit hard when the user performs their intended attack combo. So in this case they probably put a lot of effects on you (which admittedly IS pretty easy), buffed up, and then performed a heavy weave into a skill. In the end it looks like it hit about as hard as an ultimate but spread out over 4 seconds.

I guess you could maybe argue that the cooldown could be a tad longer, say maybe 15 seconds. At least then they be forced to wait a bit for their next burst rather than going right back into the rotation immediately.

Its 3K per second for 4 seconds. Thats alot for a proc set.

techprince · July 2023

Reverb wrote: »

It’s really well telegraphed and dodgeable. It’s pretty easy to not get hit by it.

Its a cone AOE hit. Not a projectile. You can't dodge it.

Janni · July 2023

techprince wrote: »

Janni wrote: »

I'm not really sure I completely agree your point of view. From what I see it hits for about 3k when fully buffed in a burst combo. Any skill/proc will hit hard when the user performs their intended attack combo. So in this case they probably put a lot of effects on you (which admittedly IS pretty easy), buffed up, and then performed a heavy weave into a skill. In the end it looks like it hit about as hard as an ultimate but spread out over 4 seconds.

I guess you could maybe argue that the cooldown could be a tad longer, say maybe 15 seconds. At least then they be forced to wait a bit for their next burst rather than going right back into the rotation immediately.

Its 3K per second for 4 seconds. Thats alot for a proc set.

It's 3K with a lot of conditionals. The person clearly has built and plays into the strategy. I personally still think the damage is fine it just needs to happen less frequently. That way it's part of a proper burst and less about constant pressure nonstop. To be honest, I'm used to getting whacked for a whole lot more by some people and they aren't using any procs at all but I can see how it would be a different situation in BGs, especially if they are playing well with team mates.

techprince · July 2023

Janni wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Janni wrote: »

I'm not really sure I completely agree your point of view. From what I see it hits for about 3k when fully buffed in a burst combo. Any skill/proc will hit hard when the user performs their intended attack combo. So in this case they probably put a lot of effects on you (which admittedly IS pretty easy), buffed up, and then performed a heavy weave into a skill. In the end it looks like it hit about as hard as an ultimate but spread out over 4 seconds.

I guess you could maybe argue that the cooldown could be a tad longer, say maybe 15 seconds. At least then they be forced to wait a bit for their next burst rather than going right back into the rotation immediately.

Its 3K per second for 4 seconds. Thats alot for a proc set.

It's 3K with a lot of conditionals. The person clearly has built and plays into the strategy. I personally still think the damage is fine it just needs to happen less frequently. That way it's part of a proper burst and less about constant pressure nonstop. To be honest, I'm used to getting whacked for a whole lot more by some people and they aren't using any procs at all but I can see how it would be a different situation in BGs, especially if they are playing well with team mates.

This damage is from solo players only. Its very easy to achieve by using Vate Ice Staff + Elemental Sus, Master DW + Rending Slashes, Dragons's Apetite or Draugurkin, Maarselok.

TybaltKaine · July 2023

Out of curiosity, is it common for people to dodge into an opponent or away from them?

I personally dodge into people and roll through them, but I don't know if that is everyone's technique. I've admittedly never bothered to see if someone was killing me with Maarselok or not, so I don't know if that would make a difference in avoiding the cone coming from the opponent.

I will say that a cooldown is warranted, but I don't agree that BG's should be No Proc and NO CP exclusively. A toggle to decide what you want to play in would be warranted, the same way as Cyrodiil is set up currently.

dinokstrunz · July 2023

Yeah lets make Battlegrounds just as dead as no proc IC and Cyro. We just need proper adjustments to this lame DW/Ice staff meta.

FantasticFreddie · July 2023

Ah yes, you got killed by something one too many times so now we need to nerf it.

Dude worked for him combo, let him have it. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

JerBearESO · July 2023

The overperforming procs need some nerfs, perhaps, but do not promote removal of procs from pvp. They are key to making unique builds, which is most of the fun for many including myself.

But yes, the current overperforming ones are out of hand and need addressing, including maarselok. I don't really love the idea of nerfing kill potential at this state of the game, so maybe the notion to buff everything else fits better.....

Btw I see thrive in chaos in one of those death recaps, pretty cool

xylena_lazarow · July 2023

Stop nerfing damage. Buff underperforming damage sets.

LittlePinkDot · July 2023

techprince wrote: »

This is No-CP with 26-30k armor.

Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.

I don't care about CP, but I would rather they just tone down the set if it's an issue.
But we should be able to use the damn sets the game comes with.
No point in creating sets that can't be used.
The game is just broken if you cannot even use the sets.

techprince · July 2023

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Ah yes, you got killed by something one too many times so now we need to nerf it.

Dude worked for him combo, let him have it. [snip]

Purge won't purge 15+ effects unless you empty your entire magicka pool to do so. And tell me, when was the last time YOU used purge other than on a templar?. Dodge an instant AOE cone ability? it's an instant AOE for a reason.

[snip]
[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

techprince · July 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

This is No-CP with 26-30k armor.

Seriously, just make battlegrounds no-proc no-cp already.

I don't care about CP, but I would rather they just tone down the set if it's an issue.
But we should be able to use the damn sets the game comes with.
No point in creating sets that can't be used.
The game is just broken if you cannot even use the sets.

Game is even more broken with those sets.

StaticWave · July 2023

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Ah yes, you got killed by something one too many times so now we need to nerf it.

Dude worked for him combo, let him have it. Learn to purge and dodge

Comments like these occur way too often on the forums with barely any knowledge behind them, and are often counter productive for discussing balance issues.

You clearly have not fought the builds that use this set, and you clearly don’t know how easy it is to be effective with this set and how little counters there are for it.

Builds that run Maarselok often have 15+ debuffs on you at all times. The best cleanse ability in the game, Cleansing Ritual, costs 4k+ magicka and can only cleanse 5 debuffs at a time. By running a charged off hand Master DW, I can Rending Slash you for a cost of 2.2k stam and apply 5 debuffs. Please compare the cost trade off and tell me if it’s a good counter.

To effectively make Maarselok damage’s negligible, you need a FULL cleanse. Currently only a few sets can do that, as well as Cleanse CP which is bugged. So tell me, how is it balanced that a 2 piece set can force a player to slot a 5 piece just to counter it?

This is also assuming that the player wearing Maarselok doesn’t know what he’s doing. A good player with Maarselok would just wait for you to waste your full cleanse, then reapply 15 debuffs in less than 5 seconds and put Maarselok on you.

So no, “dodging and cleansing” isn’t going to just work. It’s pretty distasteful to tell people to “learn” when you clearly haven’t fought people wearing the set.

JerBearESO · July 2023

Another issue is that maarselok, correct me if I'm wrong, can be applied by multiple people at the same time and is buffed by all negative effects from all enemy players. This makes the set a type of multiplicative that quickly gets out of control.

You think one of these builds is hard to deal with? Imagine a full team of this each member further amplifying each other's damage this way....

Correct me if I'm wrong though. I didn't test this, so I might be....

techprince · July 2023

JerBearESO wrote: »

Another issue is that maarselok, correct me if I'm wrong, can be applied by multiple people at the same time and is buffed by all negative effects from all enemy players. This makes the set a type of multiplicative that quickly gets out of control.

You think one of these builds is hard to deal with? Imagine a full team of this each member further amplifying each other's damage this way....

Correct me if I'm wrong though. I didn't test this, so I might be....

Yes, it works that way only. It counts all negative effects on the target applied by everyone and multiplies its damage.

Soarora · July 2023

techprince wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

Another issue is that maarselok, correct me if I'm wrong, can be applied by multiple people at the same time and is buffed by all negative effects from all enemy players. This makes the set a type of multiplicative that quickly gets out of control.

You think one of these builds is hard to deal with? Imagine a full team of this each member further amplifying each other's damage this way....

Correct me if I'm wrong though. I didn't test this, so I might be....

Yes, it works that way only. It counts all negative effects on the target applied by anyone and multiplies its damage.

It should definitely count only your debuffs on the target not all of them… like how Z’ens works. We all know being in PvP grants you an unholy amount of debuffs and DoTs… let alone the permanent bugged ones.

Reverb · July 2023

techprince wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

It’s really well telegraphed and dodgeable. It’s pretty easy to not get hit by it.

Its a cone AOE hit. Not a projectile. You can't dodge it.

Are you of the belief that you can’t dodgeroll out of AOE and avoid taking damage? Because you can.

StaticWave · July 2023

Reverb wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

It’s really well telegraphed and dodgeable. It’s pretty easy to not get hit by it.

Its a cone AOE hit. Not a projectile. You can't dodge it.

Are you of the belief that you can’t dodgeroll out of AOE and avoid taking damage? Because you can.

You're missing the point.

It doesn't matter if you can dodge roll out of the AoE. There is simply no cost involved for the Maarselok user because 1) the proc only activates when a heavy attack connects, and 2) heavy attacks don't cost resources. While your dodge roll ramps up in cost, all he has to do is continue heavy attacking until it connects.

Maarselok should either go on cooldown when a heavy attack misses, or has its tooltip damage reduced for how much value it brings and how easy the proc condition is.