The state of PvP

SaffronCitrusflower · June 2023

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The state of healing and tank builds is particularly egregious.

You should never be able to stack more than two instances of radiating regen and echoing vigor. Never, never, never, never.
There also needs to be a cooldown on benefiting from barrier. Groups running 8 barriers is absurd, abusive, and completely unacceptable.

Those two things are the major problems with group play, and fixing them would fix the ballgroup problem literally overnight.

Additional adjustments could be cutting the value of Major/Minor evasion in half in PVP.
Make healing no longer scale with damage stats, make it scale with Max Mag or Stam instead. Building for damage should force you to give up healing and vice-versa.

There also needs to be some hard tradeoffs in building resistances vs. damage.
Perhaps negative damage modifiers with resistances/armor

All in all ZOS needs to do a SERIOUS rebalance of PVP and so far, they've simply shown no interest in doing so. Until they do, PVP in this game will continue to die.

yep, heal stacking is what makes the invincible ball groups invincible. But ZOS has known this for years.

Alchimiste1 · June 2023

techprince wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@techprince Yes, that's my point. Everyone will choose to drop some damage for more healing except ball group players. You'll just create a pvp state where there is not enough damage and too much healing. No thank you

Ball groups will do less damage as well. You have siege weapons and proc sets like DC, PB and VD just for this purpose. Bombing will still be a thing.

why would they do less damage ? they have one role they can specifically build into, unlike other players

StaticWave · June 2023

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The state of healing and tank builds is particularly egregious.

You should never be able to stack more than two instances of radiating regen and echoing vigor. Never, never, never, never.
There also needs to be a cooldown on benefiting from barrier. Groups running 8 barriers is absurd, abusive, and completely unacceptable.

Those two things are the major problems with group play, and fixing them would fix the ballgroup problem literally overnight.

Additional adjustments could be cutting the value of Major/Minor evasion in half in PVP.
Make healing no longer scale with damage stats, make it scale with Max Mag or Stam instead. Building for damage should force you to give up healing and vice-versa.

There also needs to be some hard tradeoffs in building resistances vs. damage.
Perhaps negative damage modifiers with resistances/armor

All in all ZOS needs to do a SERIOUS rebalance of PVP and so far, they've simply shown no interest in doing so. Until they do, PVP in this game will continue to die.

Shield shouldn’t scale with max mag too then? Cause with your suggestion the only class that will actually do any damage and have survivability would be magsorc

Bushido2513 · June 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Shield shouldn’t scale with max mag too then? Cause with your suggestion the only class that will actually do any damage and have survivability would be magsorc

Not really, shields could still scale on max stats or health and that would be fine though a possible adjustment on the size might be needed.

That being said I really don't vote for changing these things because they are more geared towards the individual when combat in this game is obviously geared towards groups.

I think the overhaul needs to happen at the group level, meaning places where overlaps like heal stacking and some buffs cause groups to become very hard to kill. The group, well coordinated group, etc should always have the advantage but currently because of stacking buffs, heals, etc it quickly becomes out of control to where anything less than a coordinated anti group tactic will work and even then sometimes barely.

Adjusting healing vs damage vs mitigation given to the single player would have an effect on this but I'm just thinking that's maybe a lot more math then we need to be doing vs just looking at how effects stack on groups.

Adjusting anything revolving the player runs the risk of making the player able to be either too squishy or too tanky and generally a lot of people will then build towards tanky in that scenario vs dying and so you get more of a tank meta. I'd say let players power levels stay mid tier with room for adjustment towards damage, healing, mitigation with a little loss but just fix how all of these buffs overlap in groups.

techprince · June 2023

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@techprince Yes, that's my point. Everyone will choose to drop some damage for more healing except ball group players. You'll just create a pvp state where there is not enough damage and too much healing. No thank you

Ball groups will do less damage as well. You have siege weapons and proc sets like DC, PB and VD just for this purpose. Bombing will still be a thing.

why would they do less damage ? they have one role they can specifically build into, unlike other players

To do damage, they will have to invest in WD/SD. To heal, they will have to invest in max stats. Ball groups currently have both. They can heal and damage at the same time. Everyone slots Echoing Vigor and many radiating regen.

JerBearESO · June 2023

I like the idea of damage scaling with wd/sd and healing/shielding scaling with Magicka/stamina. It's in line with procs as well

Panderbander · June 2023

Pretty sure when I posited splitting up damage and healing into damage and stats here I got universally attacked for it, even in a discord server I'm in. I'm still in favor of that solution.

Anti_Virus · June 2023

I’m all in favor of splitting damage and healing into separate stats, this would be a step in the right direction imo

StaticWave · June 2023

I don't think splitting healing and damage into separate stats is a good idea, assuming what everyone's suggestion is damage only scales off WD/SD (not even stam/mag), and healing only scales off stam/mag. If you try to split healing and damage in ESO, 3 things would happen:

1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.

2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.

3) People who run a balanced build with a mix of WD/SD and stam/mag will notice a slight reduction in damage and healing. They will be able to kill players in full damage builds, but they won't have the damage to kill players in full stam/mag builds, and they definitely won't kill players with balanced builds faster than before. The problem doesn't get fixed. It just gets shifted more towards groups killing groups.

StaticWave · June 2023

The actual solution to this problem is very simple. Look at how PvP was 4 years ago. With the old CP system, damage was relatively similar to the current meta. Tankiness was arguably more with 30% major buffs and 15% minor buffs. Things like Major Protection, Vitality, Mending, were very powerful, but scarce. Now? They are easily accessible by most classes. Health was relatively low. If you were at 23-24k HP, you would be considered a borderline tank because you'd have to be in 5 heavy. Now, you can easily get 28k HP in full light armor.

The point I'm making is people died quicker because access to sources of mitigation and healing buffs were scarce, and stacking max HP was harder to achieve. It doesn't matter if you have 30k resistances with the most healing in the world. If you have a 23k HP pool, YOU'RE GOING TO BE ONE SHOTTED BY THE VAST MAJORITY OF PLAYERS.

The easiest solution ZoS could make right now is make it harder for everyone to stack into HP, or flat out put a cap to it through Battle Spirit. They will also have to lower damage a bit so everyone wouldn't just get one shotted into oblivion, but it would make fights end much quicker than what we have now.

Anti_Virus · June 2023

1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.

Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.

2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.

What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.

TechMaybeHic · June 2023

Anti_Virus wrote: »

1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.

Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.

2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.

What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.

1 you want proof, but let's have proof they would go damage. History has shown players in Cyrodiil lea or survivability because nobody wants to be back on their mount so quickly. Hence why heath pools have risen. Barring that; as mentioned before, procs are already WD/SD only and are the primary meta with vate frost, master DW. All you effectively would do is weaken the stat builds

2) nothing wrong with organized group play but it does not need any more advantage than it already has. Especially with healing. It needs to go the other way there. And there are more than one 1 to play an organized group. Splitting damage and healing stats makes the preferred way to be stacked as close to healing specialists at all times. Meanwhile; smaller groups cannot afford so many healers, and I know in large groups I run with; we have a few people that break away and deal with smaller forces at times, and this would make it to where we'd keep everyone in group builds and have to remain stacked and just roll over them like that.

Overall; I again say it doesn't address any issues and really is just how some players want it to be because they're stuck on the classic trinity play from MMOs prior and many existing. ESO is not that for PvP and it's a big part of what keeps a lot of people coming to PvP here despite the bugs and performance issues encountered on a regular basis.

StaticWave · June 2023

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.

Hop into Cyrodiil when Midyear Mayhem isn't around, there's plenty of proof.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.

Cross healing is what's wrong with organized ball groups.

It's not a good thing for healers to have more responsibility. I have small scaled against plenty of pick-up groups with a healer and it's easy to kill their DPS even with a healer around simply because the DPS players don't know what they're doing. You can't heal people who run into a fight with no defensive buffs up.

Separating damage and healing would just make healers work twice as hard for nothing. How are you going to fix people not keep up buffs? At least with the current system the DPS players could still heal themselves when panicked.

What this change would do is make it easier for organized ball groups to wipe pugs and make it harder for solo and small scale players to get any decent PvP.

StaticWave · June 2023

Anti_Virus wrote: »

1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.

Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.

2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.

What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.

And can you provide any proof that players are actually building for damage? Because when I go into Cyrodiil and get zerged, my CMX shows damage numbers that would normally be considered abysmally low for a build. 3-4k whips, 4-5k Curses, etc. are pretty normal values. But you know what? I regularly see people with 35k+ HP who also take no damage despite myself being in 2.5 dmg sets (Essence Thief, Balorgh, Rallying Cry).

With my stats (99% crit damage, 6.8k weapon damage, 17k pen before Balorgh), I should be hitting players for 7-8k crit Curses, 7-8k crit B4B, 10-12k DBs. Yet I regularly hit values for much lower against players in Cyrodiil compared to duelers in Stormhaven who are actually in builds with more damage.

People building tankier in Cyro has always been the case since the beginning of PvP. Nothing can change that fact.

LittlePinkDot · June 2023

As a solo player, I don't want to be forced into mandatory group play.
Nobody liked that about Craglorn either.

Anti_Virus · June 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.

Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.

2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.

What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.

1 you want proof, but let's have proof they would go damage. History has shown players in Cyrodiil lea or survivability because nobody wants to be back on their mount so quickly. Hence why heath pools have risen. Barring that; as mentioned before, procs are already WD/SD only and are the primary meta with vate frost, master DW. All you effectively would do is weaken the stat builds

2) nothing wrong with organized group play but it does not need any more advantage than it already has. Especially with healing. It needs to go the other way there. And there are more than one 1 to play an organized group. Splitting damage and healing stats makes the preferred way to be stacked as close to healing specialists at all times. Meanwhile; smaller groups cannot afford so many healers, and I know in large groups I run with; we have a few people that break away and deal with smaller forces at times, and this would make it to where we'd keep everyone in group builds and have to remain stacked and just roll over them like that.

Overall; I again say it doesn't address any issues and really is just how some players want it to be because they're stuck on the classic trinity play from MMOs prior and many existing. ESO is not that for PvP and it's a big part of what keeps a lot of people coming to PvP here despite the bugs and performance issues encountered on a regular basis.

You claim that people build for survival but can you explain these builds?

Explain the Maarselok, Way of Fire, Vatashran, master dual wield builds

Explain the blood spawn, daedric trickery, corrosive armor spamming, dark convergence DK builds using brawler

Explain the NBs who deal 20K plus with spectral bow potentially every 5 seconds

Explain NB proxydet bomb builds

Explain why some people are using a PVE set like relequen in pvp

Explain why players use Draugarkin, a set that nerfs your healing in exchange for damage

Explain Arcanist “Sanctum of the abyssal sea” shield builds

In order for the proc sets to hit so hard players must be building high WD/SD

Because these builds/play-styles exist players must have 35+ to 50K plus HP just to survive for a few seconds now and trust me most people don’t want to build for high HP, don’t believe me? Ask magicka sorcerers.

As for your second point Organized groups should absolutely have an advantage against disorganized groups or solo player, you are in an AvA zone

Splitting stats just makes it possible to kill them.
As it stands right now everyone (barring a tank) is a healer in an organized group and can dish out high damage.

ZOS has tried to give you guys everything to deal with these Ball groups, sets like Dark Convergence, Plauge break etc. are used (to a much greater effect) by these groups against everyone else
All of the suggestions to nerf cross healing won’t solve the issue with “ball groups” if that were to be removed these players will simply slot self heals and the problem will continue,

TechMaybeHic · June 2023

Anti_Virus wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.

Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.

2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.

What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.

1 you want proof, but let's have proof they would go damage. History has shown players in Cyrodiil lea or survivability because nobody wants to be back on their mount so quickly. Hence why heath pools have risen. Barring that; as mentioned before, procs are already WD/SD only and are the primary meta with vate frost, master DW. All you effectively would do is weaken the stat builds

2) nothing wrong with organized group play but it does not need any more advantage than it already has. Especially with healing. It needs to go the other way there. And there are more than one 1 to play an organized group. Splitting damage and healing stats makes the preferred way to be stacked as close to healing specialists at all times. Meanwhile; smaller groups cannot afford so many healers, and I know in large groups I run with; we have a few people that break away and deal with smaller forces at times, and this would make it to where we'd keep everyone in group builds and have to remain stacked and just roll over them like that.

Overall; I again say it doesn't address any issues and really is just how some players want it to be because they're stuck on the classic trinity play from MMOs prior and many existing. ESO is not that for PvP and it's a big part of what keeps a lot of people coming to PvP here despite the bugs and performance issues encountered on a regular basis.

You claim that people build for survival but can you explain these builds?

Explain the Maarselok, Way of Fire, Vatashran, master dual wield builds

Explain the blood spawn, daedric trickery, corrosive armor spamming, dark convergence DK builds using brawler

Explain the NBs who deal 20K plus with spectral bow potentially every 5 seconds

Explain NB proxydet bomb builds

Explain why some people are using a PVE set like relequen in pvp

Explain why players use Draugarkin, a set that nerfs your healing in exchange for damage

[edit]

Explain Arcanist “Sanctum of the abyssal sea” shield builds

In order for the proc sets to hit so hard players must be building high WD/SD

Because these builds/play-styles exist players must have 35+ to 50K plus HP just to survive for a few seconds now and trust me most people don’t want to build for high HP, don’t believe me? Ask magicka sorcerers.

As for your second point Organized groups should absolutely have an advantage or disorganized groups or solo player, you are in an AvA zone

Splitting stats just makes it possible to kill them.
As it stands right now everyone (barring a tank) is a healer in an organized group and can dish out high damage.

ZOS has tried to give you guys everything to deal with these Ball groups, sets like Dark Convergence, Plauge break etc. are used (to a much greater effect) by these groups against everyone else
All of the suggestions to nerf cross healing won’t solve the issue with “ball groups” if that were to be removed these players will simply slot self heals and the problem will continue,

1st build you mentioned, already not reliant on stats and would not be impacted

2nd one is DK going for corrosive has no need for defensive sets for obvious reasons they only need to get to corrosive quickly. Also, would not be impacted because they will get a huge heal still by using that ultimate

NB ganking and bombing...wouldn't change. Would be easier for them because damage avoidance is what they use so no issues. Their target, however; completely helpless if they can't heal to recover from the opening salvo. Similar thing will be for sorcs with shields and streak. Classic sorc maybe could use a new run but does it need to come at the expense of everyone else?

Then more procs that already scale off other things and not mag and stam, and Draugrkin I've never understood so couldn't tell you exactly but I've been saying since CP 2.0 that the base WD and SD is too high, and that's what allows people to run nothing but procs, stack more health, and not worry much about stats

And what do you do with the health builds with health based heals? Still be tanky and heal, but now the mag/stam damage builds would be nerfed.

Splitting stats does nothing for ball groups. Yes; they all heal each other but they do have dedicated healers using healing sets already. They already over heal constantly so wouldn't have to worry. If they did; there's little worry to add more in because the playstyle is to lockdown and focus ultimates in one chokepoints at a time so no big deal; especially if their targets have less healing. Ironically you discuss how things get used by ball groups better so targeting their healing stacks will not impact them; yet favor a blanket reduction that would directly nerf everyone else and somehow claim it would make it easier to fight ball groups

I still contend you are coming from preference when we continue to debate reducing the ability of damage builds to stay alive while we are talking about high TTK meta. Should be more damage running around, not less. Being aggressive should be encouraged.

To emphasize again The real issue is base damage and healing is too high that allow players to get so much of both with no investment. Base should be lowered, and stat scaling from both stam/mag and WD/SD should be increased

JerBearESO · June 2023

I have found building high stats for damage often results in higher survivability from healing than building defensively. This because less damage means less potential to put the enemy on their backbar. If the enemy is under less threat, they will have more offensive opportunity which results in you taking more pressure, so defense by itself as compared to offense can and often does have the inverse effect of its purpose.

That's not to say defense doesn't ever work. There are obvious cases. But with damage and healing scaling together we see where damage builds do e right have more survivability than many defensive builds do.

Lady_Light · July 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

The other day, I was on my templar and getting chased by 3 DKs wearing vate staff and master DW. I was managing with purge and LOSing the vate proc (which ironically manages to go through a lot of objects) and trying to get a kill on one at a time. With templar, I couldn't quite get one yet before I'd have to react to pressure. Came close to it and what I figured a domino falling toward a hell of a victory, but close doesn't count

Resources were getting low so I was going to bail, but then saw a 3rd faction ball group was coming my direction and had to go a different way. On my way there; one of the DKs got me. Started teabagging me and then died instantly to the ball group. That was close behind.

I laughed as that turn of events was a macro slice of where the game is. Over inflated egos using meta classes and sets; still trumped by tight masses with HOTs stacked to the sky.

Wait did I just write that? Daily life on my templar in GH.

Bushido2513 · July 2023

JerBearESO wrote: »

I have found building high stats for damage often results in higher survivability from healing than building defensively. This because less damage means less potential to put the enemy on their backbar. If the enemy is under less threat, they will have more offensive opportunity which results in you taking more pressure, so defense by itself as compared to offense can and often does have the inverse effect of its purpose.

That's not to say defense doesn't ever work. There are obvious cases. But with damage and healing scaling together we see where damage builds do e right have more survivability than many defensive builds do.

Also depends on what format you're playing or intending to play in.

Survivability and required damage all look different for zerg, bgs, small scale, solo, etc.

Just wanted to point it out being that I see some addressing it as a more universal thing.

techprince · July 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.

So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?

Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.

The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.

I'm not talking about healing sets. I'm talking about damage effect procs already being meta while scaling off only the damage stats, and yet you want to add that restriction to damage abilities which will set them back further.

And I don't see this reducing the tank meta. Nobody is going to want to run around unable to heal themselves so they'll either be less damage and support their heals while relying more on procs, or; it will be even more a ball group meta which relies on stacking heals and damage on a focused target 1 at a time.

So the answer is more damage, not less by splitting the damage pool further by having good heals requiring a dip from the same set of choices. If anything; they need to reduce the base heal and damage numbers together and offer a more aggressive scaling of both by chosing offensive stats and damage over health, proc effects, and resists

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.

I am hesitant to support such a thing because I know zos would almost certainly get it wrong with the new scaling and values I mean. Also, if time has shown anything it's that players in this game will almost certainly choose to go the survival route than the damage route. What I mean by this is if zos decided to implement your suggested changes the majority of players will surely swap to sets that offer max resources, jewelry traits that offer max resources, and other things alike. Even the solo or small-scale players will have to compromise, and use sets that offer far less damage to survive. In the end I think it's likely that we'd end up in a meta where damage is low, and healing is high. The only type of players that might benefit from these changes are ball groups. And I have no intention of supporting anything that buffs them.

As a side note, I don't really think we are in a tank meta. There is actually a lot of damage it's just dumb unenjoyable damage with things like masters dw, vate staff, other proc sets etc. I think those need to be toned down and class still need to be buffed so that when people play different classes it actually feels unique. I've noticed quite a big difference in the survivability of the average player with the newest mara nerf.

Less damage and more healing or more damage and less healing or be average at both, thats what sacrifice means..

For what purpose? That's the problem. You seem to want that but it doesn't address any issues. Probably makes them worse

For what purpose? Arent we all discussing "balance" here? How will it not address any issues?

Because it splits the damage and healing pool meaning ultimately less damage. As mentioned already, people will opt to be able to still heal themselves, and will just make stacking (IE ball groups) on one target at a time necessary to kill

So that means kill their healer and the entire group dies. Thats even better.

Alchimiste1 · July 2023

Anti_Virus wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.

Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.

2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.

What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.

1 you want proof, but let's have proof they would go damage. History has shown players in Cyrodiil lea or survivability because nobody wants to be back on their mount so quickly. Hence why heath pools have risen. Barring that; as mentioned before, procs are already WD/SD only and are the primary meta with vate frost, master DW. All you effectively would do is weaken the stat builds

2) nothing wrong with organized group play but it does not need any more advantage than it already has. Especially with healing. It needs to go the other way there. And there are more than one 1 to play an organized group. Splitting damage and healing stats makes the preferred way to be stacked as close to healing specialists at all times. Meanwhile; smaller groups cannot afford so many healers, and I know in large groups I run with; we have a few people that break away and deal with smaller forces at times, and this would make it to where we'd keep everyone in group builds and have to remain stacked and just roll over them like that.

Overall; I again say it doesn't address any issues and really is just how some players want it to be because they're stuck on the classic trinity play from MMOs prior and many existing. ESO is not that for PvP and it's a big part of what keeps a lot of people coming to PvP here despite the bugs and performance issues encountered on a regular basis.

You claim that people build for survival but can you explain these builds?

Explain the Maarselok, Way of Fire, Vatashran, master dual wield builds

Explain the blood spawn, daedric trickery, corrosive armor spamming, dark convergence DK builds using brawler

Explain the NBs who deal 20K plus with spectral bow potentially every 5 seconds

Explain NB proxydet bomb builds

Explain why some people are using a PVE set like relequen in pvp

Explain why players use Draugarkin, a set that nerfs your healing in exchange for damage

[edit]

Explain Arcanist “Sanctum of the abyssal sea” shield builds

In order for the proc sets to hit so hard players must be building high WD/SD

Because these builds/play-styles exist players must have 35+ to 50K plus HP just to survive for a few seconds now and trust me most people don’t want to build for high HP, don’t believe me? Ask magicka sorcerers.

As for your second point Organized groups should absolutely have an advantage against disorganized groups or solo player, you are in an AvA zone

Splitting stats just makes it possible to kill them.
As it stands right now everyone (barring a tank) is a healer in an organized group and can dish out high damage.

ZOS has tried to give you guys everything to deal with these Ball groups, sets like Dark Convergence, Plauge break etc. are used (to a much greater effect) by these groups against everyone else
All of the suggestions to nerf cross healing won’t solve the issue with “ball groups” if that were to be removed these players will simply slot self heals and the problem will continue,

Smh. Any player who is being genuine and has played the game for years will tell you that the vast majority of players will pick survival over damage.(As history has shown)

1) yeah that proc build is very strong, I’ve had people with 40k health in those sets try and zerg me down. Probably with 4 defense cp because it wasn’t doing much

2) you just listed a dk with bs and trickery. I don’t even need to say more

3) hardly anyone plays the hard hitting no cloak nbs because honestly they drop like flys if they aren’t good. They tended to slot s tank set like maras or hist.

4) bomber ? Who cares

5) draugrkin is usually front barred.

Above all else. Everything you listed is NOT what the majority of players will use. They are more niche setups. Let’s not lie and say the majority of the players build that way

AndreNoir · July 2023

rbfrgsp wrote: »

Lads, you're still playing on "Grey Host". They haven't even bothered to update the names of the servers in two years. They're not going to fix the gameplay. They don't want you.

I smell a pve stink x) Just don't say that third repeat of mushrooms_telvanni_Morrowind is better then stale "Grey host"

TankHealz2015 · July 2023

Add a tiny bit more fire damage vs vampires while a fighter guild skill is slotted. Tiny bump.

Take an old outdated armor set and change it to to be a resource bomb set - like vicious death but for magika or stamina instead if health... Great versus +5 but not good versus fewer players...

Add a tiny bump to one of the defile sets
Perhaps: if more than 5 players is affected by minor defile it then becomes major defile....

Support passive: while 2 support skills are slotted you deploy/stow/aim/fire siege equipment 10% faster.

IncultaWolf · July 2023

About 80% of my pvp encounters are fighting people using masters duel wield/vate ice staff.

xDeusEJRx · July 2023

I'd argue to even

StaticWave wrote: »

The actual solution to this problem is very simple. Look at how PvP was 4 years ago. With the old CP system, damage was relatively similar to the current meta. Tankiness was arguably more with 30% major buffs and 15% minor buffs. Things like Major Protection, Vitality, Mending, were very powerful, but scarce. Now? They are easily accessible by most classes. Health was relatively low. If you were at 23-24k HP, you would be considered a borderline tank because you'd have to be in 5 heavy. Now, you can easily get 28k HP in full light armor.

The point I'm making is people died quicker because access to sources of mitigation and healing buffs were scarce, and stacking max HP was harder to achieve. It doesn't matter if you have 30k resistances with the most healing in the world. If you have a 23k HP pool, YOU'RE GOING TO BE ONE SHOTTED BY THE VAST MAJORITY OF PLAYERS.

The easiest solution ZoS could make right now is make it harder for everyone to stack into HP, or flat out put a cap to it through Battle Spirit. They will also have to lower damage a bit so everyone wouldn't just get one shotted into oblivion, but it would make fights end much quicker than what we have now.

I agree with the sentiment. Personally I think they could offset it by adding an addendum to battle spirit. Maybe take away the extra resources we got back in update 29, the flames of ambition patch. Reduce the base health, magic, stamina, and WPN/Spell damage via battle spirit and that reduces effectiveness of the overbearing procs we have (because damage levels are lower) but also stats are lower as well which helps to offset some of the problems we have such as healing being too strong (damage harder to come by, healing a lot less than what it is).

For reference these were the numbers given in FoA

Via battle spirit they could work with the numbers and slash it a bit to reduce some of the overall power creeping we've seen.

That's another option they could take to help

GooGa592 · July 2023

Scoreboards are broken in PvP.

IncultaWolf · July 2023

GooGa592 wrote: »

Scoreboards are broken in PvP.

They have been broken for about a year now.

madman65 · July 2023

So what is these effects because only one person was applying this to me out of 12-14 pvpers.

madman65 · July 2023

Those 3 suppression debuffs.