acastanza_ESO wrote: »The state of healing and tank builds is particularly egregious.
You should never be able to stack more than two instances of radiating regen and echoing vigor. Never, never, never, never.
There also needs to be a cooldown on benefiting from barrier. Groups running 8 barriers is absurd, abusive, and completely unacceptable.
Those two things are the major problems with group play, and fixing them would fix the ballgroup problem literally overnight.
Additional adjustments could be cutting the value of Major/Minor evasion in half in PVP.
Make healing no longer scale with damage stats, make it scale with Max Mag or Stam instead. Building for damage should force you to give up healing and vice-versa.
There also needs to be some hard tradeoffs in building resistances vs. damage.
Perhaps negative damage modifiers with resistances/armor
All in all ZOS needs to do a SERIOUS rebalance of PVP and so far, they've simply shown no interest in doing so. Until they do, PVP in this game will continue to die.
techprince wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »@techprince Yes, that's my point. Everyone will choose to drop some damage for more healing except ball group players. You'll just create a pvp state where there is not enough damage and too much healing. No thank you
Ball groups will do less damage as well. You have siege weapons and proc sets like DC, PB and VD just for this purpose. Bombing will still be a thing.
acastanza_ESO wrote: »The state of healing and tank builds is particularly egregious.
You should never be able to stack more than two instances of radiating regen and echoing vigor. Never, never, never, never.
There also needs to be a cooldown on benefiting from barrier. Groups running 8 barriers is absurd, abusive, and completely unacceptable.
Those two things are the major problems with group play, and fixing them would fix the ballgroup problem literally overnight.
Additional adjustments could be cutting the value of Major/Minor evasion in half in PVP.
Make healing no longer scale with damage stats, make it scale with Max Mag or Stam instead. Building for damage should force you to give up healing and vice-versa.
There also needs to be some hard tradeoffs in building resistances vs. damage.
Perhaps negative damage modifiers with resistances/armor
All in all ZOS needs to do a SERIOUS rebalance of PVP and so far, they've simply shown no interest in doing so. Until they do, PVP in this game will continue to die.
StaticWave wrote: »
Shield shouldn’t scale with max mag too then? Cause with your suggestion the only class that will actually do any damage and have survivability would be magsorc
Alchimiste1 wrote: »techprince wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »@techprince Yes, that's my point. Everyone will choose to drop some damage for more healing except ball group players. You'll just create a pvp state where there is not enough damage and too much healing. No thank you
Ball groups will do less damage as well. You have siege weapons and proc sets like DC, PB and VD just for this purpose. Bombing will still be a thing.
why would they do less damage ? they have one role they can specifically build into, unlike other players
1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.
2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.
Anti_Virus wrote: »1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.
Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.
What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.
Anti_Virus wrote: »Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.
Anti_Virus wrote: »What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.
Anti_Virus wrote: »1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.
Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.
What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.
TechMaybeHic wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.
Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.
What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.
1 you want proof, but let's have proof they would go damage. History has shown players in Cyrodiil lea or survivability because nobody wants to be back on their mount so quickly. Hence why heath pools have risen. Barring that; as mentioned before, procs are already WD/SD only and are the primary meta with vate frost, master DW. All you effectively would do is weaken the stat builds
2) nothing wrong with organized group play but it does not need any more advantage than it already has. Especially with healing. It needs to go the other way there. And there are more than one 1 to play an organized group. Splitting damage and healing stats makes the preferred way to be stacked as close to healing specialists at all times. Meanwhile; smaller groups cannot afford so many healers, and I know in large groups I run with; we have a few people that break away and deal with smaller forces at times, and this would make it to where we'd keep everyone in group builds and have to remain stacked and just roll over them like that.
Overall; I again say it doesn't address any issues and really is just how some players want it to be because they're stuck on the classic trinity play from MMOs prior and many existing. ESO is not that for PvP and it's a big part of what keeps a lot of people coming to PvP here despite the bugs and performance issues encountered on a regular basis.
Anti_Virus wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.
Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.
What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.
1 you want proof, but let's have proof they would go damage. History has shown players in Cyrodiil lea or survivability because nobody wants to be back on their mount so quickly. Hence why heath pools have risen. Barring that; as mentioned before, procs are already WD/SD only and are the primary meta with vate frost, master DW. All you effectively would do is weaken the stat builds
2) nothing wrong with organized group play but it does not need any more advantage than it already has. Especially with healing. It needs to go the other way there. And there are more than one 1 to play an organized group. Splitting damage and healing stats makes the preferred way to be stacked as close to healing specialists at all times. Meanwhile; smaller groups cannot afford so many healers, and I know in large groups I run with; we have a few people that break away and deal with smaller forces at times, and this would make it to where we'd keep everyone in group builds and have to remain stacked and just roll over them like that.
Overall; I again say it doesn't address any issues and really is just how some players want it to be because they're stuck on the classic trinity play from MMOs prior and many existing. ESO is not that for PvP and it's a big part of what keeps a lot of people coming to PvP here despite the bugs and performance issues encountered on a regular basis.
You claim that people build for survival but can you explain these builds?
Explain the Maarselok, Way of Fire, Vatashran, master dual wield builds
Explain the blood spawn, daedric trickery, corrosive armor spamming, dark convergence DK builds using brawler
Explain the NBs who deal 20K plus with spectral bow potentially every 5 seconds
Explain NB proxydet bomb builds
Explain why some people are using a PVE set like relequen in pvp
Explain why players use Draugarkin, a set that nerfs your healing in exchange for damage
[edit]
Explain Arcanist “Sanctum of the abyssal sea” shield builds
In order for the proc sets to hit so hard players must be building high WD/SD
Because these builds/play-styles exist players must have 35+ to 50K plus HP just to survive for a few seconds now and trust me most people don’t want to build for high HP, don’t believe me? Ask magicka sorcerers.
As for your second point Organized groups should absolutely have an advantage or disorganized groups or solo player, you are in an AvA zone
Splitting stats just makes it possible to kill them.
As it stands right now everyone (barring a tank) is a healer in an organized group and can dish out high damage.
ZOS has tried to give you guys everything to deal with these Ball groups, sets like Dark Convergence, Plauge break etc. are used (to a much greater effect) by these groups against everyone else
All of the suggestions to nerf cross healing won’t solve the issue with “ball groups” if that were to be removed these players will simply slot self heals and the problem will continue,
TechMaybeHic wrote: »The other day, I was on my templar and getting chased by 3 DKs wearing vate staff and master DW. I was managing with purge and LOSing the vate proc (which ironically manages to go through a lot of objects) and trying to get a kill on one at a time. With templar, I couldn't quite get one yet before I'd have to react to pressure. Came close to it and what I figured a domino falling toward a hell of a victory, but close doesn't count
Resources were getting low so I was going to bail, but then saw a 3rd faction ball group was coming my direction and had to go a different way. On my way there; one of the DKs got me. Started teabagging me and then died instantly to the ball group. That was close behind.
I laughed as that turn of events was a macro slice of where the game is. Over inflated egos using meta classes and sets; still trumped by tight masses with HOTs stacked to the sky.
JerBearESO wrote: »I have found building high stats for damage often results in higher survivability from healing than building defensively. This because less damage means less potential to put the enemy on their backbar. If the enemy is under less threat, they will have more offensive opportunity which results in you taking more pressure, so defense by itself as compared to offense can and often does have the inverse effect of its purpose.
That's not to say defense doesn't ever work. There are obvious cases. But with damage and healing scaling together we see where damage builds do e right have more survivability than many defensive builds do.
TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.
So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?
Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.
The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.
I'm not talking about healing sets. I'm talking about damage effect procs already being meta while scaling off only the damage stats, and yet you want to add that restriction to damage abilities which will set them back further.
And I don't see this reducing the tank meta. Nobody is going to want to run around unable to heal themselves so they'll either be less damage and support their heals while relying more on procs, or; it will be even more a ball group meta which relies on stacking heals and damage on a focused target 1 at a time.
So the answer is more damage, not less by splitting the damage pool further by having good heals requiring a dip from the same set of choices. If anything; they need to reduce the base heal and damage numbers together and offer a more aggressive scaling of both by chosing offensive stats and damage over health, proc effects, and resistsAlchimiste1 wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.
I am hesitant to support such a thing because I know zos would almost certainly get it wrong with the new scaling and values I mean. Also, if time has shown anything it's that players in this game will almost certainly choose to go the survival route than the damage route. What I mean by this is if zos decided to implement your suggested changes the majority of players will surely swap to sets that offer max resources, jewelry traits that offer max resources, and other things alike. Even the solo or small-scale players will have to compromise, and use sets that offer far less damage to survive. In the end I think it's likely that we'd end up in a meta where damage is low, and healing is high. The only type of players that might benefit from these changes are ball groups. And I have no intention of supporting anything that buffs them.
As a side note, I don't really think we are in a tank meta. There is actually a lot of damage it's just dumb unenjoyable damage with things like masters dw, vate staff, other proc sets etc. I think those need to be toned down and class still need to be buffed so that when people play different classes it actually feels unique. I've noticed quite a big difference in the survivability of the average player with the newest mara nerf.
Less damage and more healing or more damage and less healing or be average at both, thats what sacrifice means..
For what purpose? That's the problem. You seem to want that but it doesn't address any issues. Probably makes them worse
For what purpose? Arent we all discussing "balance" here? How will it not address any issues?
Because it splits the damage and healing pool meaning ultimately less damage. As mentioned already, people will opt to be able to still heal themselves, and will just make stacking (IE ball groups) on one target at a time necessary to kill
Anti_Virus wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »1) People tend to build tanky, regardless of meta. They will start using max stam/mag sets. Damage will be abysmally low and nobody dies.
Going to need proof that most players will do this. As of right now players actually build for damage.2) People who build full damage will not have any survivability, and will have to join groups. Pick-up groups will definitely suffer because healers will have to do even more work than normal. Organized groups will continue to dominate.
What’s wrong with organized groups? Cyrodil is meant for group play right? As for healers, yes they will indeed have more responsibilities than they do now, which is a good thing since they will be the determining factor of a groups success. If you want to take out Organized groups kill their healer first and watch the group die.
1 you want proof, but let's have proof they would go damage. History has shown players in Cyrodiil lea or survivability because nobody wants to be back on their mount so quickly. Hence why heath pools have risen. Barring that; as mentioned before, procs are already WD/SD only and are the primary meta with vate frost, master DW. All you effectively would do is weaken the stat builds
2) nothing wrong with organized group play but it does not need any more advantage than it already has. Especially with healing. It needs to go the other way there. And there are more than one 1 to play an organized group. Splitting damage and healing stats makes the preferred way to be stacked as close to healing specialists at all times. Meanwhile; smaller groups cannot afford so many healers, and I know in large groups I run with; we have a few people that break away and deal with smaller forces at times, and this would make it to where we'd keep everyone in group builds and have to remain stacked and just roll over them like that.
Overall; I again say it doesn't address any issues and really is just how some players want it to be because they're stuck on the classic trinity play from MMOs prior and many existing. ESO is not that for PvP and it's a big part of what keeps a lot of people coming to PvP here despite the bugs and performance issues encountered on a regular basis.
You claim that people build for survival but can you explain these builds?
Explain the Maarselok, Way of Fire, Vatashran, master dual wield builds
Explain the blood spawn, daedric trickery, corrosive armor spamming, dark convergence DK builds using brawler
Explain the NBs who deal 20K plus with spectral bow potentially every 5 seconds
Explain NB proxydet bomb builds
Explain why some people are using a PVE set like relequen in pvp
Explain why players use Draugarkin, a set that nerfs your healing in exchange for damage
[edit]
Explain Arcanist “Sanctum of the abyssal sea” shield builds
In order for the proc sets to hit so hard players must be building high WD/SD
Because these builds/play-styles exist players must have 35+ to 50K plus HP just to survive for a few seconds now and trust me most people don’t want to build for high HP, don’t believe me? Ask magicka sorcerers.
As for your second point Organized groups should absolutely have an advantage against disorganized groups or solo player, you are in an AvA zone
Splitting stats just makes it possible to kill them.
As it stands right now everyone (barring a tank) is a healer in an organized group and can dish out high damage.
ZOS has tried to give you guys everything to deal with these Ball groups, sets like Dark Convergence, Plauge break etc. are used (to a much greater effect) by these groups against everyone else
All of the suggestions to nerf cross healing won’t solve the issue with “ball groups” if that were to be removed these players will simply slot self heals and the problem will continue,
Lads, you're still playing on "Grey Host". They haven't even bothered to update the names of the servers in two years. They're not going to fix the gameplay. They don't want you.
StaticWave wrote: »The actual solution to this problem is very simple. Look at how PvP was 4 years ago. With the old CP system, damage was relatively similar to the current meta. Tankiness was arguably more with 30% major buffs and 15% minor buffs. Things like Major Protection, Vitality, Mending, were very powerful, but scarce. Now? They are easily accessible by most classes. Health was relatively low. If you were at 23-24k HP, you would be considered a borderline tank because you'd have to be in 5 heavy. Now, you can easily get 28k HP in full light armor.
The point I'm making is people died quicker because access to sources of mitigation and healing buffs were scarce, and stacking max HP was harder to achieve. It doesn't matter if you have 30k resistances with the most healing in the world. If you have a 23k HP pool, YOU'RE GOING TO BE ONE SHOTTED BY THE VAST MAJORITY OF PLAYERS.
The easiest solution ZoS could make right now is make it harder for everyone to stack into HP, or flat out put a cap to it through Battle Spirit. They will also have to lower damage a bit so everyone wouldn't just get one shotted into oblivion, but it would make fights end much quicker than what we have now.