PVP was best when all builds and all classes were viable, when everyone could kill everyone. The pvp is now catering to try hard elites that has always been a small minority in population, it drives away the larger player base.
Catering to tryhard elites? Lol not even remotely, the pvp caters towards whoever puts the most proc damage combos on their build. Has been since late 2021, the last meta that's "catered toward elites" was Flames of ambition at the start of 2021.
That was mainly because procs were gone and people hadn't gotten used to the new CP system as it was just implemented, but in no way does the current meta cater to any "elites"
The meta has and always will be cheesing people to death with whatever is the strongest damage proc at the time, because having 3 procs burst you simultaneously will always be better than any sort of "skill".
Elite is not a concept in this game's pvp, I have no idea how people think there's elitism anywhere in pvp outside of dueling and dueling tournaments. Anything else pvp is literally Proc v Proc
How is this even a response? What do procs have to do with skill? Like I know people like to say "omg this set does damage for you you can just faceroll the controller," but I thought this was tongue-in-cheek. I thought we were just discussing stylistic preferences.
The truth is still that, of course, a talented player will be better than an average player if they both use procs. Procs aren't some kind of great equalizer. Some people know how to
align cooldowns and line up burst and some people don't. Some people know when Mechanical Acuity is active, for instance, and some don't. Some people know which buff Daedric Trickery just gave them and how to use it and some people don't.
Whenever the best/only competative pvp builds use two arena weapons then we do actually kinda have a meta shifted towards elites. Because not just anybody has those.
People claim aiming and pushing buttons is the end-all be-all of talent but you don't see elite players wearing stat builds performing elitely, do you? The pvp environment is dominated by people on PTS crunching numbers finding the new best sets, proc or not, and using them in conjunction with arena weapons that bad players can't even get.
What's funny though is the guy using his Vate Destro dies to someone's dark convergence and immediately groans "the set is doing all the work for him!" MmmmmmmmK.
Was it BAD players using Savage Werewolf that made it need to be nerfed? No. The bad players didn't even know it was broken and over performing. Is it bad players vicariously nuking other players with tri-focus in IC? No. You wish it were-- but bad players have no idea. Were bad players abusing Ash Cloud for infinite sustain? No, they had no idea.
So... Sorry if you feel insulted by being called a try-hard elite simply for playing and researching the game you love... But it's really just a term, not meant to be as insulting as it sounds. And if you spend much time on the forums, PTS, or build editors then that's exactly what you are. If you respond to forum posts with graphs, charts, and combat metrics then that's exactly what you are.
PVP was best when all builds and all classes were viable, when everyone could kill everyone. The pvp is now catering to try hard elites that has always been a small minority in population, it drives away the larger player base.
techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.
Right. Well that's kinda my point though exactly, isn't it? On one hand you bemoan the fact that arenas keep getting easier and easier meanwhile droves of players are using lightning staves to get their first clear ever. Slight difference of opinion there, ain't it?
Also yeah sure every NB on earth might've been using Caluurions but my point is that the scrub NBs got one gank out of it and then die. It was the elite PvPers who could turn it into an X. It is the elite PvPers who push the meta and the bad PvPers who follow suit but aren't as good.
Blaming bad PvPers for crutching on proc sets is stupid. It's the good players doing the exact same thing that are the real problem.
If you're wearing meta gear losing to bad players wearing the same gear then I got news for ya-- they're as good as you.
techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.
TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.
So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?
Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.
techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.
So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?
Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.
The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.
techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.
Right. Well that's kinda my point though exactly, isn't it? On one hand you bemoan the fact that arenas keep getting easier and easier meanwhile droves of players are using lightning staves to get their first clear ever. Slight difference of opinion there, ain't it?
Also yeah sure every NB on earth might've been using Caluurions but my point is that the scrub NBs got one gank out of it and then die. It was the elite PvPers who could turn it into an X. It is the elite PvPers who push the meta and the bad PvPers who follow suit but aren't as good.
Blaming bad PvPers for crutching on proc sets is stupid. It's the good players doing the exact same thing that are the real problem.
If you're wearing meta gear losing to bad players wearing the same gear then I got news for ya-- they're as good as you.
You're making arguments that no one is making lol. The argument is that pvp is not skilled - it just isn't. Also you literally prove what I'm saying is true saying "players can get their first clear" is indicative that this is not skill-dominated meta. You can't even make the argument it's leaning heavily on skill when most of the gear is ACCESSIBLE. It can't be SKILL dominated when most of the top sets are all EASILY accessible. Stop these nonsensical arguments
Also the fact sets like plaguebreak exist where it makes pvp 100x easier than it did when you had to build into max stat is evident of that. There's no skill curve, there's no elitism(unless you're a duelist).
These are all "I made it up" moments because none of this is true. Even some of the budget builds that don't require as much grinding can and still will kill in pvp. Oakensoul heavy attack build is an easy way to kill people, plaguebreak with pretty much any gear combo is an easy way to kill in pvp. Dark convergence with any way is an easy way to kill people.
Most of these sets hardly require any skill to get into, the point is ANYONE can get into the top gear set ups and start killing and be good at pvp, due to the ease of access, that's literally the definition of a META. It's meta because the pvp is overrun with these setups.
Also I like how you assume that I wear meta gear, like you're really just grasping at straws right now. I've never used caluurions, scavenging, oakensoul heavy attacks, mechanical, DC, plaguebreak, vateshran or any of that proc crap that has been making rounds lately.
I use PRIMARILY no proc set ups, I use New Moon acolyte, Willpower/Agility, and Heartland Conqueror still to this year, and of the procs that I DO run none of it provides me free damage because that's boring pvp. The most "offensive" proc that I've used recently is snake in the stars and it's not even that strong of a proc to begin with.
I don't need to be a meta proc abuser to understand how EASY pvp is when it you use put these sets on
NordSwordnBoard wrote: »I had something to add but I'm still in combat...for the last 3 yearsinside the alliance baseI live in a tent
TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.
So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?
Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.
The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.
I'm not talking about healing sets. I'm talking about damage effect procs already being meta while scaling off only the damage stats, and yet you want to add that restriction to damage abilities which will set them back further.
And I don't see this reducing the tank meta. Nobody is going to want to run around unable to heal themselves so they'll either be less damage and support their heals while relying more on procs, or; it will be even more a ball group meta which relies on stacking heals and damage on a focused target 1 at a time.
So the answer is more damage, not less by splitting the damage pool further by having good heals requiring a dip from the same set of choices. If anything; they need to reduce the base heal and damage numbers together and offer a more aggressive scaling of both by chosing offensive stats and damage over health, proc effects, and resists
Alchimiste1 wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.
I am hesitant to support such a thing because I know zos would almost certainly get it wrong with the new scaling and values I mean. Also, if time has shown anything it's that players in this game will almost certainly choose to go the survival route than the damage route. What I mean by this is if zos decided to implement your suggested changes the majority of players will surely swap to sets that offer max resources, jewelry traits that offer max resources, and other things alike. Even the solo or small-scale players will have to compromise, and use sets that offer far less damage to survive. In the end I think it's likely that we'd end up in a meta where damage is low, and healing is high. The only type of players that might benefit from these changes are ball groups. And I have no intention of supporting anything that buffs them.
As a side note, I don't really think we are in a tank meta. There is actually a lot of damage it's just dumb unenjoyable damage with things like masters dw, vate staff, other proc sets etc. I think those need to be toned down and class still need to be buffed so that when people play different classes it actually feels unique. I've noticed quite a big difference in the survivability of the average player with the newest mara nerf.
techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.
So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?
Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.
The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.
I'm not talking about healing sets. I'm talking about damage effect procs already being meta while scaling off only the damage stats, and yet you want to add that restriction to damage abilities which will set them back further.
And I don't see this reducing the tank meta. Nobody is going to want to run around unable to heal themselves so they'll either be less damage and support their heals while relying more on procs, or; it will be even more a ball group meta which relies on stacking heals and damage on a focused target 1 at a time.
So the answer is more damage, not less by splitting the damage pool further by having good heals requiring a dip from the same set of choices. If anything; they need to reduce the base heal and damage numbers together and offer a more aggressive scaling of both by chosing offensive stats and damage over health, proc effects, and resistsAlchimiste1 wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.
I am hesitant to support such a thing because I know zos would almost certainly get it wrong with the new scaling and values I mean. Also, if time has shown anything it's that players in this game will almost certainly choose to go the survival route than the damage route. What I mean by this is if zos decided to implement your suggested changes the majority of players will surely swap to sets that offer max resources, jewelry traits that offer max resources, and other things alike. Even the solo or small-scale players will have to compromise, and use sets that offer far less damage to survive. In the end I think it's likely that we'd end up in a meta where damage is low, and healing is high. The only type of players that might benefit from these changes are ball groups. And I have no intention of supporting anything that buffs them.
As a side note, I don't really think we are in a tank meta. There is actually a lot of damage it's just dumb unenjoyable damage with things like masters dw, vate staff, other proc sets etc. I think those need to be toned down and class still need to be buffed so that when people play different classes it actually feels unique. I've noticed quite a big difference in the survivability of the average player with the newest mara nerf.
Less damage and more healing or more damage and less healing or be average at both, thats what sacrifice means..
Alchimiste1 wrote: »@techprince Yes, that's my point. Everyone will choose to drop some damage for more healing except ball group players. You'll just create a pvp state where there is not enough damage and too much healing. No thank you
TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.
So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?
Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.
The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.
I'm not talking about healing sets. I'm talking about damage effect procs already being meta while scaling off only the damage stats, and yet you want to add that restriction to damage abilities which will set them back further.
And I don't see this reducing the tank meta. Nobody is going to want to run around unable to heal themselves so they'll either be less damage and support their heals while relying more on procs, or; it will be even more a ball group meta which relies on stacking heals and damage on a focused target 1 at a time.
So the answer is more damage, not less by splitting the damage pool further by having good heals requiring a dip from the same set of choices. If anything; they need to reduce the base heal and damage numbers together and offer a more aggressive scaling of both by chosing offensive stats and damage over health, proc effects, and resistsAlchimiste1 wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.
I am hesitant to support such a thing because I know zos would almost certainly get it wrong with the new scaling and values I mean. Also, if time has shown anything it's that players in this game will almost certainly choose to go the survival route than the damage route. What I mean by this is if zos decided to implement your suggested changes the majority of players will surely swap to sets that offer max resources, jewelry traits that offer max resources, and other things alike. Even the solo or small-scale players will have to compromise, and use sets that offer far less damage to survive. In the end I think it's likely that we'd end up in a meta where damage is low, and healing is high. The only type of players that might benefit from these changes are ball groups. And I have no intention of supporting anything that buffs them.
As a side note, I don't really think we are in a tank meta. There is actually a lot of damage it's just dumb unenjoyable damage with things like masters dw, vate staff, other proc sets etc. I think those need to be toned down and class still need to be buffed so that when people play different classes it actually feels unique. I've noticed quite a big difference in the survivability of the average player with the newest mara nerf.
Less damage and more healing or more damage and less healing or be average at both, thats what sacrifice means..
For what purpose? That's the problem. You seem to want that but it doesn't address any issues. Probably makes them worse
techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.
So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?
Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.
The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.
I'm not talking about healing sets. I'm talking about damage effect procs already being meta while scaling off only the damage stats, and yet you want to add that restriction to damage abilities which will set them back further.
And I don't see this reducing the tank meta. Nobody is going to want to run around unable to heal themselves so they'll either be less damage and support their heals while relying more on procs, or; it will be even more a ball group meta which relies on stacking heals and damage on a focused target 1 at a time.
So the answer is more damage, not less by splitting the damage pool further by having good heals requiring a dip from the same set of choices. If anything; they need to reduce the base heal and damage numbers together and offer a more aggressive scaling of both by chosing offensive stats and damage over health, proc effects, and resistsAlchimiste1 wrote: »techprince wrote: »To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.
So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.
I am hesitant to support such a thing because I know zos would almost certainly get it wrong with the new scaling and values I mean. Also, if time has shown anything it's that players in this game will almost certainly choose to go the survival route than the damage route. What I mean by this is if zos decided to implement your suggested changes the majority of players will surely swap to sets that offer max resources, jewelry traits that offer max resources, and other things alike. Even the solo or small-scale players will have to compromise, and use sets that offer far less damage to survive. In the end I think it's likely that we'd end up in a meta where damage is low, and healing is high. The only type of players that might benefit from these changes are ball groups. And I have no intention of supporting anything that buffs them.
As a side note, I don't really think we are in a tank meta. There is actually a lot of damage it's just dumb unenjoyable damage with things like masters dw, vate staff, other proc sets etc. I think those need to be toned down and class still need to be buffed so that when people play different classes it actually feels unique. I've noticed quite a big difference in the survivability of the average player with the newest mara nerf.
Less damage and more healing or more damage and less healing or be average at both, thats what sacrifice means..
For what purpose? That's the problem. You seem to want that but it doesn't address any issues. Probably makes them worse
For what purpose? Arent we all discussing "balance" here? How will it not address any issues?
Whenever the best/only competative pvp builds use two arena weapons then we do actually kinda have a meta shifted towards elites. Because not just anybody has those.