The state of PvP

OBJnoob · June 2023

Example: I'm sorta a try-hard elite. Because I frequent the forums and therefore know what's going on. But I have a penchant for making my own builds even against good advice... I don't have any perfected arena weapons... And unless the daily reward was 100k gold then I have 20k.

So I'm always going to perform worse than those that "try harder." And honestly that's fair. Trying is supposed to lead to winning. But let's not act like it isn't what it is.

If you do your daily writs every day, have a house with all attunables and a million gold in the bank, have a PTS account, every DLC and mythic and arena weapons... Then the best aimer and button pusher in the world isn't going to be able to compete with you.

Now imagine a world where the good button pushers also have all that and this is ESO PvP.

xDeusEJRx · June 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

jerj6925 wrote: »

PVP was best when all builds and all classes were viable, when everyone could kill everyone. The pvp is now catering to try hard elites that has always been a small minority in population, it drives away the larger player base.

Catering to tryhard elites? Lol not even remotely, the pvp caters towards whoever puts the most proc damage combos on their build. Has been since late 2021, the last meta that's "catered toward elites" was Flames of ambition at the start of 2021.
That was mainly because procs were gone and people hadn't gotten used to the new CP system as it was just implemented, but in no way does the current meta cater to any "elites"

The meta has and always will be cheesing people to death with whatever is the strongest damage proc at the time, because having 3 procs burst you simultaneously will always be better than any sort of "skill".

Elite is not a concept in this game's pvp, I have no idea how people think there's elitism anywhere in pvp outside of dueling and dueling tournaments. Anything else pvp is literally Proc v Proc

How is this even a response? What do procs have to do with skill? Like I know people like to say "omg this set does damage for you you can just faceroll the controller," but I thought this was tongue-in-cheek. I thought we were just discussing stylistic preferences.

The truth is still that, of course, a talented player will be better than an average player if they both use procs. Procs aren't some kind of great equalizer. Some people know how to
align cooldowns and line up burst and some people don't. Some people know when Mechanical Acuity is active, for instance, and some don't. Some people know which buff Daedric Trickery just gave them and how to use it and some people don't.

Whenever the best/only competative pvp builds use two arena weapons then we do actually kinda have a meta shifted towards elites. Because not just anybody has those.

People claim aiming and pushing buttons is the end-all be-all of talent but you don't see elite players wearing stat builds performing elitely, do you? The pvp environment is dominated by people on PTS crunching numbers finding the new best sets, proc or not, and using them in conjunction with arena weapons that bad players can't even get.

What's funny though is the guy using his Vate Destro dies to someone's dark convergence and immediately groans "the set is doing all the work for him!" MmmmmmmmK.

Was it BAD players using Savage Werewolf that made it need to be nerfed? No. The bad players didn't even know it was broken and over performing. Is it bad players vicariously nuking other players with tri-focus in IC? No. You wish it were-- but bad players have no idea. Were bad players abusing Ash Cloud for infinite sustain? No, they had no idea.

So... Sorry if you feel insulted by being called a try-hard elite simply for playing and researching the game you love... But it's really just a term, not meant to be as insulting as it sounds. And if you spend much time on the forums, PTS, or build editors then that's exactly what you are. If you respond to forum posts with graphs, charts, and combat metrics then that's exactly what you are.

The comment assumes that there is some sort of skill disparity, the only disparity in this game is gear, and that hinges on procs. There's nothing "elitist" about proc gear.

Also the idea of "bad players don't have these op gear sets" is absolutely asinine. The content of these PVE areas has not been changed but the player damage has just been getting HIGHER every patch because of the power creep.

Dragonstar arena, Blackrose prison, and Vateshran hollows have all not somehow gotten more difficult as well to match the increase in damage. You can heavy attack group your way through lots of endgame PVE content and somehow you think only elite players can get access to this?
Heavy attacking through lots of these content was not even possible until recently.
This is the most ridiculous argument to be making lol. PVE content has gotten 100x easier in this game so these types of sets are NOT difficult to get access to because of constant power creep in this game. It's getting EASIER to play, not HARDER.

Also some proc sets just have flat out insane tooltips like Scavenging demise. Also do you remember how overrun Cyro was with Caluurion nightblades? Are you gonna claim caluurion nightblades are elite players as well? What about Oakensoul heavy attack tri-focus builds? There's no way you are trying to claim oakensoul heavy attacking is difficult to pull off, considering how Oakensoul dominated the pvp meta in high isle, there's no doubt a million players don't already have access to the Tri-focus heavy attack setup, its disingenuous to imply otherwise. What about Dark convergence on launch when it could 1 shot? Let's not forget plaguebreak and dark convergence EXTREMELY trivialize pvp because the nuke capability of both sets are still great and they are both rewards of the worthy set.

You people need to stop making it seem like this game's pvp somehow has some type of insane skill curve in 2023. The skill curve is literally just cheese people to death. It
Lastly this meta is not "dominated by pts", this meta is dominated by YouTube build videos. Every overly toxic meta has been dominated by everyone making variations of the same way to abuse the strongest proc out there.

I don't know if you guys are living in 2017, but this game is not skill-dominated. The devs literally have and succeed to reduce skill gap in most avenues of the Endgame(both pve and pvp). Anyone can jump into pvp, anyone can kill. There's 1 million builds out there, some of which literally require you to hold heavy attack on an npc to nuke players. There is no argument to make about this being a skill dominated meta lmfao.

disintegr8 · June 2023

For me PVP stands for Ping Versus Ping - me with high ping will always be defeated by those with low ping. Nothing to do with skill.

OBJnoob · June 2023

Right. Well that's kinda my point though exactly, isn't it? On one hand you bemoan the fact that arenas keep getting easier and easier meanwhile droves of players are using lightning staves to get their first clear ever. Slight difference of opinion there, ain't it?

Also yeah sure every NB on earth might've been using Caluurions but my point is that the scrub NBs got one gank out of it and then die. It was the elite PvPers who could turn it into an X. It is the elite PvPers who push the meta and the bad PvPers who follow suit but aren't as good.

Blaming bad PvPers for crutching on proc sets is stupid. It's the good players doing the exact same thing that are the real problem.

If you're wearing meta gear losing to bad players wearing the same gear then I got news for ya-- they're as good as you.

StaticWave · June 2023

jerj6925 wrote: »

PVP was best when all builds and all classes were viable, when everyone could kill everyone. The pvp is now catering to try hard elites that has always been a small minority in population, it drives away the larger player base.

PvP is more casual friendly now than ever, despite having less sets to work with.

Remember when 7th Legion and Fury were meta because some elite PvPers said they were top notch sets for PvPing, and everyone was asking for them to be nerfed? Well, people conveniently forgot that those sets only exceled in outnumbered situations, and fighting outnumbered requires you to already be an exceptional PvPer in the first place. Throw 7th Legion + Fury on a casual player, and he still won't be able perform at the same level as an exceptional PvPer.

They nerfed all of those 1vX stat sets, buffed a bunch of procs, and suddenly we have casual PvPers who can give a seasoned one trouble, even for a split moment. Take stamsorc for example. Throw Vate Ice, Master DW, Maarselok, Dragon's Appetite on a casual stamsorc player, and I will have trouble surviving his damage on my stat build despite being a 5 year hardcore stamsorc main with thousands of hours of dueling experience. I will still be able to kill him if I put on the same proc build, but the point is he can actually be a threat to me with much less experience on the class.

I’m not trying to be elitist, but players should be able to feel rewarded for putting in the time to perfect their game mechanics. It doesn’t feel rewarding when you spent hours learning to PvP, getting good at it, only to die to some player with 3-4 proc sets doing afk damage, forcing you to hop on the same build just for a chance at competing.

What @Alchimiste1 said is perfect. ZoS needs to fix class balance by looking at the classes individually, instead of throwing proc sets at players and hoping that the issue would be resolved.

TechMaybeHic · June 2023

The other day, I was on my templar and getting chased by 3 DKs wearing vate staff and master DW. I was managing with purge and LOSing the vate proc (which ironically manages to go through a lot of objects) and trying to get a kill on one at a time. With templar, I couldn't quite get one yet before I'd have to react to pressure. Came close to it and what I figured a domino falling toward a hell of a victory, but close doesn't count

Resources were getting low so I was going to bail, but then saw a 3rd faction ball group was coming my direction and had to go a different way. On my way there; one of the DKs got me. Started teabagging me and then died instantly to the ball group. That was close behind.

I laughed as that turn of events was a macro slice of where the game is. Over inflated egos using meta classes and sets; still trumped by tight masses with HOTs stacked to the sky.

techprince · June 2023

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.

TechMaybeHic · June 2023

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.

So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?

Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · June 2023

I agree with most people here, PvP needs to be fixed, changed, upgraded or whatever to make it better. But the reality is that no matter what ESO's ads said about PvP when the game launched, it will never be more than causal PvP. ESO is the same as Ultima Online, Black Desert, WOW and many other mmo's that have PvP (as a side) but are mainly focused on PvE community group building and questing. I've seen more players together doing the Alik'r dolman run then I see in PvP lands most of the times.

I like PvP in ESO despite it's problems and it's great running around in Cryodiil with your guild. But I still usually only PvP with my guild or when I'm really bored and waiting for my guild, I'll do a few town quests. I'm actually surprised how well PvP does work since it was never meant to be more than an add on to the main game.

rbfrgsp · June 2023

Lads, you're still playing on "Grey Host". They haven't even bothered to update the names of the servers in two years. They're not going to fix the gameplay. They don't want you.

xDeusEJRx · June 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Right. Well that's kinda my point though exactly, isn't it? On one hand you bemoan the fact that arenas keep getting easier and easier meanwhile droves of players are using lightning staves to get their first clear ever. Slight difference of opinion there, ain't it?

Also yeah sure every NB on earth might've been using Caluurions but my point is that the scrub NBs got one gank out of it and then die. It was the elite PvPers who could turn it into an X. It is the elite PvPers who push the meta and the bad PvPers who follow suit but aren't as good.

Blaming bad PvPers for crutching on proc sets is stupid. It's the good players doing the exact same thing that are the real problem.

If you're wearing meta gear losing to bad players wearing the same gear then I got news for ya-- they're as good as you.

You're making arguments that no one is making lol. The argument is that pvp is not skilled - it just isn't. Also you literally prove what I'm saying is true saying "players can get their first clear" is indicative that this is not skill-dominated meta. You can't even make the argument it's leaning heavily on skill when most of the gear is ACCESSIBLE. It can't be SKILL dominated when most of the top sets are all EASILY accessible. Stop these nonsensical arguments

Also the fact sets like plaguebreak exist where it makes pvp 100x easier than it did when you had to build into max stat is evident of that. There's no skill curve, there's no elitism(unless you're a duelist).

These are all "I made it up" moments because none of this is true. Even some of the budget builds that don't require as much grinding can and still will kill in pvp. Oakensoul heavy attack build is an easy way to kill people, plaguebreak with pretty much any gear combo is an easy way to kill in pvp. Dark convergence with any way is an easy way to kill people.

Most of these sets hardly require any skill to get into, the point is ANYONE can get into the top gear set ups and start killing and be good at pvp, due to the ease of access, that's literally the definition of a META. It's meta because the pvp is overrun with these setups.

Also I like how you assume that I wear meta gear, like you're really just grasping at straws right now. I've never used caluurions, scavenging, oakensoul heavy attacks, mechanical, DC, plaguebreak, vateshran or any of that proc crap that has been making rounds lately.

I use PRIMARILY no proc set ups, I use New Moon acolyte, Willpower/Agility, and Heartland Conqueror still to this year, and of the procs that I DO run none of it provides me free damage because that's boring pvp. The most "offensive" proc that I've used recently is snake in the stars and it's not even that strong of a proc to begin with.
I don't need to be a meta proc abuser to understand how EASY pvp is when it you use put these sets on

SaffronCitrusflower · June 2023

And they just hit PvP with AP nerfs by reducing the AP gain from repairing and from killing other players, as well as removing the faction health buff from gaining emp. The removal of the faction health buff was the removal of one of the primary objectives in PvP. They had to know this when they made the change.

StaticWave · June 2023

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.

Sounds good on paper but the problem with this is the game isn’t designed around that. Look at New World for example. If you want reliable healing, you have to use Life Staff, which only scales off Focus stat. However, combat pace is also slower, abilities have actual cooldowns, and range attacks require actual aiming. This allows you to still be fine as a pure damage build, even if your only sources of healing are potions and food.

ESO isn’t like that. Combat is very fast-paced, there’s no ability cooldowns, and ranged abilities don’t require aiming. Now imagine fighting that without heals that can scale with offensive stats. It would be impossible for solo and small scalers.

If you want to experience what it’s like to have split stats for healing and offense, just stack all wd, remove all your heals, and see how well it works lol. You’d be better playing a ganker/healer at that point.

Panderbander · June 2023

Imagine grouping up to fill in the gaps for heals on a massively multiplayer online game... That's just crazy talk.

techprince · June 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.

So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?

Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.

The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.

xFocused · June 2023

Personally, I'd like to see 2 alliances instead of 3 added. Will it ever happen? Probably not. Same with the removal of the hammer. will it be removed? Nah.

As far as "skill" goes in PvP..Some players are always going to be more skilled than others, that's fact but let's not pretend majority of these "Skilled" or "Elite" players aren't running the insanely overused meta right now. 40k+ Warden healbots, Heavy Attack Sorcs, Corrosive DK's, Vateshran staff/Masters DW builds...Every fight is the same anymore and it's growing stale

TechMaybeHic · June 2023

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.

So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?

Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.

The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.

I'm not talking about healing sets. I'm talking about damage effect procs already being meta while scaling off only the damage stats, and yet you want to add that restriction to damage abilities which will set them back further.

And I don't see this reducing the tank meta. Nobody is going to want to run around unable to heal themselves so they'll either be less damage and support their heals while relying more on procs, or; it will be even more a ball group meta which relies on stacking heals and damage on a focused target 1 at a time.

So the answer is more damage, not less by splitting the damage pool further by having good heals requiring a dip from the same set of choices. If anything; they need to reduce the base heal and damage numbers together and offer a more aggressive scaling of both by chosing offensive stats and damage over health, proc effects, and resists

Alchimiste1 · June 2023

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.

I am hesitant to support such a thing because I know zos would almost certainly get it wrong with the new scaling and values I mean. Also, if time has shown anything it's that players in this game will almost certainly choose to go the survival route than the damage route. What I mean by this is if zos decided to implement your suggested changes the majority of players will surely swap to sets that offer max resources, jewelry traits that offer max resources, and other things alike. Even the solo or small-scale players will have to compromise, and use sets that offer far less damage to survive. In the end I think it's likely that we'd end up in a meta where damage is low, and healing is high. The only type of players that might benefit from these changes are ball groups. And I have no intention of supporting anything that buffs them.

As a side note, I don't really think we are in a tank meta. There is actually a lot of damage it's just dumb unenjoyable damage with things like masters dw, vate staff, other proc sets etc. I think those need to be toned down and class still need to be buffed so that when people play different classes it actually feels unique. I've noticed quite a big difference in the survivability of the average player with the newest mara nerf.

NordSwordnBoard · June 2023

I had something to add but I'm still in combat...

for the last 3 years

inside the alliance base

I live in a tent

geonsocal · June 2023

I still like to think of myself as a casual player - but, when the fighting starts - I'm usually trying pretty hard to win

and, if I'm being honest - a lot of build ideas i get from the forums...usually stuff that some poster is complaining about...

for me, I start falling back of the top 10 to 15% of pvp'rs cuz I don't wanna do the spreadsheet math stuff, DLC dungeons or arenas...

that's just how it is, I'm okay with that - until somebody either bursts me down too easy, or I run in to someone who's health bar I can't dent - or some toon with like infinite sustain...

thankfully enough fights go my way that I don't get too bent out of shape when I run into the more skilled/knowledgeable/dedicated pvp'rs...

being solo all the time, that happens, usually fighting for a resource flag...

OBJnoob · June 2023

My point

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Right. Well that's kinda my point though exactly, isn't it? On one hand you bemoan the fact that arenas keep getting easier and easier meanwhile droves of players are using lightning staves to get their first clear ever. Slight difference of opinion there, ain't it?

Also yeah sure every NB on earth might've been using Caluurions but my point is that the scrub NBs got one gank out of it and then die. It was the elite PvPers who could turn it into an X. It is the elite PvPers who push the meta and the bad PvPers who follow suit but aren't as good.

Blaming bad PvPers for crutching on proc sets is stupid. It's the good players doing the exact same thing that are the real problem.

If you're wearing meta gear losing to bad players wearing the same gear then I got news for ya-- they're as good as you.

You're making arguments that no one is making lol. The argument is that pvp is not skilled - it just isn't. Also you literally prove what I'm saying is true saying "players can get their first clear" is indicative that this is not skill-dominated meta. You can't even make the argument it's leaning heavily on skill when most of the gear is ACCESSIBLE. It can't be SKILL dominated when most of the top sets are all EASILY accessible. Stop these nonsensical arguments

Also the fact sets like plaguebreak exist where it makes pvp 100x easier than it did when you had to build into max stat is evident of that. There's no skill curve, there's no elitism(unless you're a duelist).

These are all "I made it up" moments because none of this is true. Even some of the budget builds that don't require as much grinding can and still will kill in pvp. Oakensoul heavy attack build is an easy way to kill people, plaguebreak with pretty much any gear combo is an easy way to kill in pvp. Dark convergence with any way is an easy way to kill people.

Most of these sets hardly require any skill to get into, the point is ANYONE can get into the top gear set ups and start killing and be good at pvp, due to the ease of access, that's literally the definition of a META. It's meta because the pvp is overrun with these setups.

Also I like how you assume that I wear meta gear, like you're really just grasping at straws right now. I've never used caluurions, scavenging, oakensoul heavy attacks, mechanical, DC, plaguebreak, vateshran or any of that proc crap that has been making rounds lately.

I use PRIMARILY no proc set ups, I use New Moon acolyte, Willpower/Agility, and Heartland Conqueror still to this year, and of the procs that I DO run none of it provides me free damage because that's boring pvp. The most "offensive" proc that I've used recently is snake in the stars and it's not even that strong of a proc to begin with.
I don't need to be a meta proc abuser to understand how EASY pvp is when it you use put these sets on

I mean you say pvp is easy you say PvE is easy, everything is easy I guess, but somehow you don't fall into the category of elite even though everything is easy?

Got news for ya bud everything in this game isn't easy for everybody.

Im glad that you rock old-school non-meta setups. So do I. I've been playing my magden lately, FB 5-piece innate axiom, BB 5-piece Order of Diagna, 3 piece Trainee, Markyn Ring. I do this because I, like you, find procs kinda lame and honestly I like the challenge. But what I don't do is assume everyone who beats me wearing better gear is actually a worse player. Because that undermines the challenge I gave myself and, frankly, is just petty and untrue.

People are so incredibly conceited and ego-centric in this game it's insane. You pick a set-up you like, have success with it, you're the best. Someone comes along and beats you in a way you don't approve of and they're being carried. Lol. You go out there, kill 5 people at once, all talent. One guy with arena weapons kills you he's a scrub in disguise.

People with arena weapons don't have real talent. People wearing oakensoul don't have real talent. People with too much HP don't have real talent. People who play in large groups don't have real talent. People who enjoy capping flags don't have real talent. So who's left? Just you, your friends, and anybody that agrees with your comment?

I can go into a BG with my Ravenwatch setup and, for sake of argument, let's say I get wrecked. And it'd be easy for me to say "oh, I only got wrecked because their gear is so much better than mine." And there's truth to it. But what's also true, and you seem to not realize, is that I only got wrecked because I'm in high mmr. There are echelons of players below me that I can wreck wearing anything.

It's like (weird metaphor incoming,) if we were professional golfers and everybody finishes a round between 68 and 74 strokes. You say, jeez, there's no skill gap we're all the same. The guy that won only won because he's got a graphite driver. ***. Cheater! Meanwhile millions of other golfers are lucky to get under 100 LOL.

geonsocal · June 2023

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I had something to add but I'm still in combat...
for the last 3 years
inside the alliance base
I live in a tent

that was too funny

techprince · June 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.

So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?

Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.

The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.

I'm not talking about healing sets. I'm talking about damage effect procs already being meta while scaling off only the damage stats, and yet you want to add that restriction to damage abilities which will set them back further.

And I don't see this reducing the tank meta. Nobody is going to want to run around unable to heal themselves so they'll either be less damage and support their heals while relying more on procs, or; it will be even more a ball group meta which relies on stacking heals and damage on a focused target 1 at a time.

So the answer is more damage, not less by splitting the damage pool further by having good heals requiring a dip from the same set of choices. If anything; they need to reduce the base heal and damage numbers together and offer a more aggressive scaling of both by chosing offensive stats and damage over health, proc effects, and resists

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.

I am hesitant to support such a thing because I know zos would almost certainly get it wrong with the new scaling and values I mean. Also, if time has shown anything it's that players in this game will almost certainly choose to go the survival route than the damage route. What I mean by this is if zos decided to implement your suggested changes the majority of players will surely swap to sets that offer max resources, jewelry traits that offer max resources, and other things alike. Even the solo or small-scale players will have to compromise, and use sets that offer far less damage to survive. In the end I think it's likely that we'd end up in a meta where damage is low, and healing is high. The only type of players that might benefit from these changes are ball groups. And I have no intention of supporting anything that buffs them.

As a side note, I don't really think we are in a tank meta. There is actually a lot of damage it's just dumb unenjoyable damage with things like masters dw, vate staff, other proc sets etc. I think those need to be toned down and class still need to be buffed so that when people play different classes it actually feels unique. I've noticed quite a big difference in the survivability of the average player with the newest mara nerf.

Less damage and more healing or more damage and less healing or be average at both, thats what sacrifice means..

TechMaybeHic · June 2023

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.

So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?

Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.

The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.

I'm not talking about healing sets. I'm talking about damage effect procs already being meta while scaling off only the damage stats, and yet you want to add that restriction to damage abilities which will set them back further.

And I don't see this reducing the tank meta. Nobody is going to want to run around unable to heal themselves so they'll either be less damage and support their heals while relying more on procs, or; it will be even more a ball group meta which relies on stacking heals and damage on a focused target 1 at a time.

So the answer is more damage, not less by splitting the damage pool further by having good heals requiring a dip from the same set of choices. If anything; they need to reduce the base heal and damage numbers together and offer a more aggressive scaling of both by chosing offensive stats and damage over health, proc effects, and resists

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.

I am hesitant to support such a thing because I know zos would almost certainly get it wrong with the new scaling and values I mean. Also, if time has shown anything it's that players in this game will almost certainly choose to go the survival route than the damage route. What I mean by this is if zos decided to implement your suggested changes the majority of players will surely swap to sets that offer max resources, jewelry traits that offer max resources, and other things alike. Even the solo or small-scale players will have to compromise, and use sets that offer far less damage to survive. In the end I think it's likely that we'd end up in a meta where damage is low, and healing is high. The only type of players that might benefit from these changes are ball groups. And I have no intention of supporting anything that buffs them.

As a side note, I don't really think we are in a tank meta. There is actually a lot of damage it's just dumb unenjoyable damage with things like masters dw, vate staff, other proc sets etc. I think those need to be toned down and class still need to be buffed so that when people play different classes it actually feels unique. I've noticed quite a big difference in the survivability of the average player with the newest mara nerf.

Less damage and more healing or more damage and less healing or be average at both, thats what sacrifice means..

For what purpose? That's the problem. You seem to want that but it doesn't address any issues. Probably makes them worse

Alchimiste1 · June 2023

@techprince Yes, that's my point. Everyone will choose to drop some damage for more healing except ball group players. You'll just create a pvp state where there is not enough damage and too much healing. No thank you

techprince · June 2023

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@techprince Yes, that's my point. Everyone will choose to drop some damage for more healing except ball group players. You'll just create a pvp state where there is not enough damage and too much healing. No thank you

Ball groups will do less damage as well. You have siege weapons and proc sets like DC, PB and VD just for this purpose. Bombing will still be a thing.

techprince · June 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.

So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?

Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.

The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.

I'm not talking about healing sets. I'm talking about damage effect procs already being meta while scaling off only the damage stats, and yet you want to add that restriction to damage abilities which will set them back further.

And I don't see this reducing the tank meta. Nobody is going to want to run around unable to heal themselves so they'll either be less damage and support their heals while relying more on procs, or; it will be even more a ball group meta which relies on stacking heals and damage on a focused target 1 at a time.

So the answer is more damage, not less by splitting the damage pool further by having good heals requiring a dip from the same set of choices. If anything; they need to reduce the base heal and damage numbers together and offer a more aggressive scaling of both by chosing offensive stats and damage over health, proc effects, and resists

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.

I am hesitant to support such a thing because I know zos would almost certainly get it wrong with the new scaling and values I mean. Also, if time has shown anything it's that players in this game will almost certainly choose to go the survival route than the damage route. What I mean by this is if zos decided to implement your suggested changes the majority of players will surely swap to sets that offer max resources, jewelry traits that offer max resources, and other things alike. Even the solo or small-scale players will have to compromise, and use sets that offer far less damage to survive. In the end I think it's likely that we'd end up in a meta where damage is low, and healing is high. The only type of players that might benefit from these changes are ball groups. And I have no intention of supporting anything that buffs them.

As a side note, I don't really think we are in a tank meta. There is actually a lot of damage it's just dumb unenjoyable damage with things like masters dw, vate staff, other proc sets etc. I think those need to be toned down and class still need to be buffed so that when people play different classes it actually feels unique. I've noticed quite a big difference in the survivability of the average player with the newest mara nerf.

Less damage and more healing or more damage and less healing or be average at both, thats what sacrifice means..

For what purpose? That's the problem. You seem to want that but it doesn't address any issues. Probably makes them worse

For what purpose? Arent we all discussing "balance" here? How will it not address any issues?

TechMaybeHic · June 2023

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or offstat recovery.

So your answer is to make abilities weaker in order to heal similar to proc sets, while proc sets are being discussed because they outpace abilities and are meta currently?

Id rather go the opposite where stats more heavily increase damage. We actually just got a decent one in shattered fate for penetration that's 5 piece is Stuhns with 100% uptime. We need some for damage itself.

The last borken healing set was Mara's which wasnt scaling with anything at all. It had a fixed healing amount per second. And you missed the entire picture. Tank meta means having healing, mitigation and damage at the same time. The majority runs HP+Recovery food since healing scales with WD/SD much better than offensive stats. If they want more healing, they will have to invest into tristat food or stam/mag enchants. Something will be sacrificed which will automatically balance out the tank meta.

I'm not talking about healing sets. I'm talking about damage effect procs already being meta while scaling off only the damage stats, and yet you want to add that restriction to damage abilities which will set them back further.

And I don't see this reducing the tank meta. Nobody is going to want to run around unable to heal themselves so they'll either be less damage and support their heals while relying more on procs, or; it will be even more a ball group meta which relies on stacking heals and damage on a focused target 1 at a time.

So the answer is more damage, not less by splitting the damage pool further by having good heals requiring a dip from the same set of choices. If anything; they need to reduce the base heal and damage numbers together and offer a more aggressive scaling of both by chosing offensive stats and damage over health, proc effects, and resists

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

To solve tank meta, you need to seperate damage scaling with heal scaling. They have already done this to the proc sets but not to the abilities. Heals should only scale with max offensive resources and damage only with WD/SD.

So players will have to sacrifice something. Either healing, damage, health or off-stat recovery.

I am hesitant to support such a thing because I know zos would almost certainly get it wrong with the new scaling and values I mean. Also, if time has shown anything it's that players in this game will almost certainly choose to go the survival route than the damage route. What I mean by this is if zos decided to implement your suggested changes the majority of players will surely swap to sets that offer max resources, jewelry traits that offer max resources, and other things alike. Even the solo or small-scale players will have to compromise, and use sets that offer far less damage to survive. In the end I think it's likely that we'd end up in a meta where damage is low, and healing is high. The only type of players that might benefit from these changes are ball groups. And I have no intention of supporting anything that buffs them.

As a side note, I don't really think we are in a tank meta. There is actually a lot of damage it's just dumb unenjoyable damage with things like masters dw, vate staff, other proc sets etc. I think those need to be toned down and class still need to be buffed so that when people play different classes it actually feels unique. I've noticed quite a big difference in the survivability of the average player with the newest mara nerf.

Less damage and more healing or more damage and less healing or be average at both, thats what sacrifice means..

For what purpose? That's the problem. You seem to want that but it doesn't address any issues. Probably makes them worse

For what purpose? Arent we all discussing "balance" here? How will it not address any issues?

Because it splits the damage and healing pool meaning ultimately less damage. As mentioned already, people will opt to be able to still heal themselves, and will just make stacking (IE ball groups) on one target at a time necessary to kill

Luckylancer · June 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Whenever the best/only competative pvp builds use two arena weapons then we do actually kinda have a meta shifted towards elites. Because not just anybody has those.

Hahahajaja. Do you think getting arena weapons hard? I cant believe you call the meta elitist for this. I did not read the rest of your post after reading this.

acastanza_ESO · June 2023

The state of healing and tank builds is particularly egregious.

You should never be able to stack more than two instances of radiating regen and echoing vigor. Never, never, never, never.
There also needs to be a cooldown on benefiting from barrier. Groups running 8 barriers is absurd, abusive, and completely unacceptable.

Those two things are the major problems with group play, and fixing them would fix the ballgroup problem literally overnight.

Additional adjustments could be cutting the value of Major/Minor evasion in half in PVP.
Make healing no longer scale with damage stats, make it scale with Max Mag or Stam instead. Building for damage should force you to give up healing and vice-versa.

There also needs to be some hard tradeoffs in building resistances vs. damage.
Perhaps negative damage modifiers with resistances/armor

All in all ZOS needs to do a SERIOUS rebalance of PVP and so far, they've simply shown no interest in doing so. Until they do, PVP in this game will continue to die.