Necrom Plaguebreak changes.

frogthroat · April 2023

Play how you want*.

* Terms and conditions apply.

Players: *figure out something unique, clever and fun*
ZOS: Haha. No.

Sure, remove PB from NPC's and pets in Cyro. The same as Empower when you use an NPC to copy damage to players.

But in PVE it's a different thing. It's mostly a fun thing. In some cases it is a great way to clear trash mobs, but it's not usable in all situations. If ZOS thinks it's too powerful, why not just nerf it a bit in PVE?

Like, for example:
Dealing direct damage causes enemies to become a Plague Carrier, dealing 500 Disease Damage over 10 seconds and applying the Diseased status effect. If the plague is removed early it explodes and deals 367 Disease Damage to all enemies within 8 meters of the carrier, increasing by 50% per enemy hit. This effect can occur once every 20 seconds per target, once per attack, and scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage. When Battle Spirit is active this effect doubles and cannot be applied to non-player enemies.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 2023

Runefang wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ManM wrote: »

Plaguebreak in PVE really lowered my time to kill annoying trash packs. Plaguebreak in PVP, using NPCs as bombs, helped me at least have a chance at killing a DK in Mara's. Now both of those aspects of the set are gone. I had golded out the set as it seemed to survive a patch or two, so I thought it was stable. Now, well, I am really disappointed. What is the next best way to clear out trash? Rush of agony?

Azureblight.

Works in trials but bad in dungeons and overland since trash won’t last long enough.

But if monsters aren't lasting long enough to use Azureblight in a dungeon, why would you even need Plaguebreak at that point?

pklemming · April 2023

The set was not game breaking and it was fun. Zos seem to be attempting to remove the 'fun' aspect from their games.

Between this and the HA changes, there have been several people I know who were considering coming back for the Arcanist, but have now changed their mind.

As was mentioned, if this was a bug it should have been fixed a long, long time ago. What, NOW, makes it unacceptable?

As for the HA bug... Way to discriminate against disabled people.. again. There are a lot of people with physical issues for whom the ability to use Oakensoul and HAs has been literally game-changing. The nerf directly affects them, they have no other options for a playstyle that still allows them to experience more content.

2 bar setups still outperform them. Making a set harder to keep consistent uptimes is not helping people who were already struggling.

Do you really hate disabled people playing that much?

The lack of consideration for a significant portion of the player base is amazing.

finehair · April 2023

The reason they are removing proc on npc death isn't its overpowered in pve scenarios. You can wipe 30 people standing close to few NPC guards by just killing the NPC guards in cyrodiil with this set. Kill NPC guards> they explode>player dies> players start to explode and chain reaction as in the case of vicious death.
It is vicious death, but green and also procs on NPC. Which is to be honest easy to take advantage of.

Jaraal · April 2023

finehair wrote: »

The reason they are removing proc on npc death isn't its overpowered in pve scenarios. You can wipe 30 people standing close to few NPC guards by just killing the NPC guards in cyrodiil with this set. Kill NPC guards> they explode>player dies> players start to explode and chain reaction as in the case of vicious death.
It is vicious death, but green and also procs on NPC. Which is to be honest easy to take advantage of.

If you can kill a few 71k to 140k HP NPC guards that are standing near 30 players before 30 players can kill you, then message me your build so I can use it, please!

acastanza_ESO · April 2023

Jaraal wrote: »

finehair wrote: »

The reason they are removing proc on npc death isn't its overpowered in pve scenarios. You can wipe 30 people standing close to few NPC guards by just killing the NPC guards in cyrodiil with this set. Kill NPC guards> they explode>player dies> players start to explode and chain reaction as in the case of vicious death.
It is vicious death, but green and also procs on NPC. Which is to be honest easy to take advantage of.

If you can kill a few 71k to 140k HP NPC guards that are standing near 30 players before 30 players can kill you, then message me your build so I can use it, please!

This happens literally all the time. The Guards HP numbers are completely irrelevant. It is extremely easy to nuke them before any players could react. Particularly the Mender guards.

BahometZ · April 2023

This set doesn't need any attention. No changes. It works fine as it is. Many people use it for basic non-sweaty, non-niche PvE content. Why punish everyone because you think a few people, who have gone to a lot of effort to squeak out a minor victory against a bunch of pixels, should be halted. Honestly sick of ZOS reducing fun, innovative approaches. Actions like this make it seem like the devs don't understand how players engage with video games. The things that keep people engaged are finding new ways of approaching content, exploration, experimentation. Any time a content creator releases a video that shows a cool and perhaps unintended interaction, it creates interest, and other people want to get involved. Instead ZOS would rather that not happen; why would you bother repping this game on stream, if you're just going to get fun-policed.

Jaraal · April 2023

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

finehair wrote: »

The reason they are removing proc on npc death isn't its overpowered in pve scenarios. You can wipe 30 people standing close to few NPC guards by just killing the NPC guards in cyrodiil with this set. Kill NPC guards> they explode>player dies> players start to explode and chain reaction as in the case of vicious death.
It is vicious death, but green and also procs on NPC. Which is to be honest easy to take advantage of.

If you can kill a few 71k to 140k HP NPC guards that are standing near 30 players before 30 players can kill you, then message me your build so I can use it, please!

This happens literally all the time. The Guards HP numbers are completely irrelevant. It is extremely easy to nuke them before any players could react. Particularly the Mender guards.

I think it has a lot more to do with 16-20k HP glass cannon players getting nuked than it does does targeting any guards. But ZOS isn't looking at that at all.

Ei8htba11 · May 2023

So, why is Dark Convergence ok but this set needs this nerf? Used it in PvE, it's fun, but not an "I win" set..

Mogli · May 2023

After reading the 3rd week of PTS patch notes, I highly doubt Plaguebreak will get any change which really sucks and pisses me off. It's not that great of a set, and has a really unique and fun use that they are completely removing from the game rather than taking a small amount of effort to balance it (while it's not even broken). All they would have to do is cap the amount of PvE mobs calculate towards the total damage. Could be up to 500% for Enemy Non-players or roughly 10 mobs. I really hope they do SOMETHING rather than deleting a fun set entirely from almost all forms of content. Sure... I'll still use it in Cyrodiil but it was the only thing helping me enjoy overland and PvE content. Now they stripped that from players rather than taking an ounce of effort to do anything else. Very disappointed and hope something is done before Necrom launches.

Toxic_Hemlock · May 2023

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

So, why is Dark Convergence ok but this set needs this nerf? Used it in PvE, it's fun, but not an "I win" set..

Don't worry, once a <000.1 player finds a way to slaughter an entire dungeon with DC, this set will be destroyed (again) too. I went back to a boring crit set that (hopefully) won't be nerfed even though PB was my favorite set for overland trash.

belial5221_ESO · May 2023

Why not just leave it as is,but have it affect Players only when battle spirit is active.It would make it balanced for PVE and PVP.

BahometZ · May 2023

Very disappointed that this is going forward with no comment or recognition. The rationale behind it is specious at best. Coupled with the lacklustre class, mythics and zone, Necrom looking pretty bog.

TheDarkRuler · May 2023

Mogli wrote: »

After reading the 3rd week of PTS patch notes, I highly doubt Plaguebreak will get any change which really sucks and pisses me off. It's not that great of a set, and has a really unique and fun use that they are completely removing from the game rather than taking a small amount of effort to balance it (while it's not even broken). All they would have to do is cap the amount of PvE mobs calculate towards the total damage. Could be up to 500% for Enemy Non-players or roughly 10 mobs. I really hope they do SOMETHING rather than deleting a fun set entirely from almost all forms of content. Sure... I'll still use it in Cyrodiil but it was the only thing helping me enjoy overland and PvE content. Now they stripped that from players rather than taking an ounce of effort to do anything else. Very disappointed and hope something is done before Necrom launches.

PTS is 99% of the time a "we announce stuff" cycle. I can hardly remember ZOS really reconsidered player feedback alot and completely reverted or adjusted changes.

BahometZ · June 2023

I'm not going to stop complaining about this bad change. In a game full of dead sets, zos content to kill another one. Devs need to take some feedback on this, or explain why it's a change that needed to be made. Some video of a guy doing stuff that is beyond the ken of 99% of the playerbase is not what you balance around. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when it comes to these fun police devs.

Jaraal · June 2023

BahometZ wrote: »

I'm not going to stop complaining about this bad change. In a game full of dead sets, zos content to kill another one. Devs need to take some feedback on this, or explain why it's a change that needed to be made. Some video of a guy doing stuff that is beyond the ken of 99% of the playerbase is not what you balance around. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when it comes to these fun police devs.

But most of the balance changes they make are triggered by exactly that: videos made by outliers in the 99th percentile who are achieving things that the vast majority of us will never be capable of. And they even stated that with Update 36... that they wanted to bring "top end" damage down from "obscene" levels.

Any time somebody posts a video of themselves making a mockery of the combat system, you can bet it will get their attention. Virtually nobody clears dungeons at the same level as the Plaguebreak videos in question, but we can't be having one person abusing their toys without taking them away from everybody else, too.... in the interest of fairness.

Bushido2513 · June 2023

BahometZ wrote: »

I'm not going to stop complaining about this bad change. In a game full of dead sets, zos content to kill another one. Devs need to take some feedback on this, or explain why it's a change that needed to be made. Some video of a guy doing stuff that is beyond the ken of 99% of the playerbase is not what you balance around. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when it comes to these fun police devs.

The change is a bad one in that it could have been better implemented. It was a change that needed to happen but it wasn't only about the issues in PvE but pvp as well.

Actually if you look at the notes they list pvp as the first concern then PvE.

I just wanted to be more clear about the source of the issue. The problem for ZOS was changing both sides which they rarely do so they just turned off on side which isn't a good fix

That being said, good luck trying to get them to correctly fix both sides which they historically rarely ever do.

BahometZ · June 2023

But the pvp issues were also niche, if you died because you got kited over ads then learn from that and play smarter. Again, I don't see why the set had to change because of a clever side effect. This added an interesting dynamic to fights.

I don't see it as mockery, people are always going to explore possibilities, it's part of video gaming. Zos punishing people who put that much effort into their game is crazy. They should want players to find new ways of interacting with sets and mechanics, it keeps the game alive. This is short-sighted and dull-minded.

Rather than focus on the 1%, look at all the people enjoying plaguebreak go boom on overland, and dungeons, and realise you're taking away players fun AGAIN.

Look, if pvp was such a concern, then make it only effect monsters, make it a pve set. Pvp already has vicious death and dark convergence.

xDeusEJRx · June 2023

BahometZ wrote: »

Rather than focus on the 1%, look at all the people enjoying plaguebreak go boom on overland, and dungeons, and realise you're taking away players fun AGAIN.

Look, if pvp was such a concern, then make it only effect monsters, make it a pve set. Pvp already has vicious death and dark convergence.

Except plaguebreak is quite literally a PVP set, created and intended to punish pvp interactions and behaiors. So they would never make a change like that to this set in the first place, seeing as this set was never intended to see wide usage in PVE.

Obviously that doesn't mean that players can't use the set outside it's intended reach, but you still need to understand that the balancing will favor PVP seeing as it's always intended to be a PVP set. Same as sets like Bahsei's Mania will be updated with PVE interactions in mind, Plaguebreak will see updates and balance fixes that typically favor PVP.

As unfortunate as it may be to have your builds get nerfed, I think going this route for sets is good because we always see this back and forth between PVP and PVE players complaining "[x skill] is getting gutted because of PVP" or "[x set] is getting gutted because of PVE" and complaining how ZOS needs separate balancing between the two, and this just plays into that.
(Though it would be great if any new sets are PVE or PVP only from their inception instead of requiring 5+ adjustment changes to reach that point)

We get a separation between what is made for PVP and what's made for PVE, so if Zos further adjusts Plaguebreak down the line, PVE players aren't gonna complain that PVP players are the cause of their gear being nerfed. As they can solely think about how to better the PVP aspect of the game when balancing this set any further.

Bushido2513 · June 2023

BahometZ wrote: »

But the pvp issues were also niche, if you died because you got kited over ads then learn from that and play smarter. Again, I don't see why the set had to change because of a clever side effect. This added an interesting dynamic to fights.

Well there's the comment above this one about the intent of the set for pvp. Also ads involved in this way has not been traditionally part of the gameplay and there's no logic built in for them to react correctly. It just comes off feeling cheesy when you this particular mechanic in a way that isn't really programed into the game.

Adds in Cyro defend the area and I'm totally ok, it makes a lot of sense because they fight, heal each other/themselves, etc. The ads don't have any logic for plaguebreak so it's really just an effect that gets abused when using them in a not so interesting way.

If ads were say programmed to spread out when infected I'd be somewhat ok with the interaction or if they had more health or pretty much anything to say they have a defense for that mechanic.

But yeah pb was always a pvp set, working in pve seemed more like the unintended effect from the start.

BenTSG · June 2023

Well if they had stated from the get-go that this was done in an effort to separate PvP and PvE, it'd have been better, but there was zero mention of it at all, of it being part of the reason for it or that it's their goal or idea going forward, instead that in one or two dungeons it was completely destroying mobs and bosses by a handful of very skilled players, and that the AI didn't know how to handle it, so it was wiped out of PvE entirely. In PvP, sure, you could reach for the AI point, but it has no premise at all in PvE given the amount of, well, everything AI will get killed by because they don't react to it. They simple could have just said it wouldn't work on NPCs in PvP.

I am all for the separation of PvP and PvE, but I don't believe this was done with that in mind whatsoever. They saw a issue, and did what they do best.

xDeusEJRx · June 2023

BenTSG wrote: »

Well if they had stated from the get-go that this was done in an effort to separate PvP and PvE, it'd have been better, but there was zero mention of it at all, of it being part of the reason for it or that it's their goal or idea going forward, instead that in one or two dungeons it was completely destroying mobs and bosses by a handful of very skilled players, and that the AI didn't know how to handle it, so it was wiped out of PvE entirely. In PvP, sure, you could reach for the AI point, but it has no premise at all in PvE given the amount of, well, everything AI will get killed by because they don't react to it. They simple could have just said it wouldn't work on NPCs in PvP.

I am all for the separation of PvP and PvE, but I don't believe this was done with that in mind whatsoever. They saw a issue, and did what they do best.

I agree with what you're saying, but the point of what I'm saying being it seems consistent in line with what the devs want for the game at least. They don't want the top players to be standing out so seamlessly, hence why sets like Bahsei's, Kilt, or now even this are changed in PVE, plus the fact it now is only a PVP set falls in line with its original intention of being a PVP set, considering changes are going to tend to favor PVP over PVE ultimately as it's a pvp set.

I personally have no care for the set, I don't personally like procs in pvp and don't particularly care for this set, but I don't see any logical inconsistency here on the dev's part.

Whereas the rhetoric here in this thread is overly shocked by the fact they'd even consider taking an approach of removing a PVP set from non-pvp areas. It's rather late in the game to do that, personally think it should've been day 1, but it's not that baffling of a thing occur as some people make it out.

Uttimately, I see this set probably getting changed again, and with it being at this point where it's only PVP, they can actually need to only consider PVP when making updates for it

Bushido2513 · June 2023

Yeah basically if there's any takeaway its that the set should have just been implemented properly however I don't see a reason to go back.

We also know that people like this kind of set in pve so maybe one day they will make another one that's more tweaked for pve.

Hopefully

BahometZ · June 2023

Im all for conditioning sets to operate only on monsters, or only when battlespirit is in effect, as it does help balance the two game types. If they're going to do this, then commit to it. There are countless sets untouched in this way.
To let pb operate as it did for so long and then pull the rug out is poor form, but also typical. There is no other set like it in pve, which is a real shame.
Azureblight comes close but functionally quite different. I'm scouring my stickerbooks for a replacement and there is nothing close. Zos have closed a door without opening another.

Bushido2513 · June 2023

I mean really while I can see why people enjoy this set in PvE, the game really just isn't made to support a set like in PvE fully. In guessing that most wouldn't find a balanced version to be as useful or fun.

Imagine pb with a toned down dot/explosion/enemy cap. Meh