Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

Braffin · May 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not using a HA build. I don't want my Oakensoul nerfed any more. I don't parse. I quest. So you're perfectly happy to cut me down to size when this is the first time I've been able to handle a quest boss.

Thanks. /s

That's indeed a problem which is mostly not seen in such discussions.

In general it would be better to implement a system similar to PvPs "Battle Spirit" to vTrials. Would definitely not be an easy to implement change tho.

Kusto · May 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not using a HA build. I don't want my Oakensoul nerfed any more. I don't parse. I quest. So you're perfectly happy to cut me down to size when this is the first time I've been able to handle a quest boss.

Thanks. /s

Oakensoul wasn't nerfed. Empower and storm master set was. So nothing changes for you.

No one's asking Oakensoul ring to be nerfed. It's the sergeant's + storm build with lightning staff and passives that's OP af.

TaSheen · May 2023

Kusto wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not using a HA build. I don't want my Oakensoul nerfed any more. I don't parse. I quest. So you're perfectly happy to cut me down to size when this is the first time I've been able to handle a quest boss.

Thanks. /s

Oakensoul wasn't nerfed. Empower and storm master set was. So nothing changes for you.

No one's asking Oakensoul ring to be nerfed. It's the sergeant's + storm build with lightning staff and passives that's OP af.

Excuse me?

Kusto wrote: »

That's exactly why oaken ha needs nerfing.

The problem is, that if oaken ha gets nerfed, so will my oakensoul situation. It's not a one off. Now if it's just the set being nerfed, well that works for me because I've never used that set.

But every one of you are calling for "oakensoul" nerfs. Which is not and cannot be just HA - and saying it's the set and empower is disingenuous - if you're calling for empower and set nerf, fine. But you're calling it oakensoul nerf.

And I personally don't care about empower. I DO care that you're all inserting "oakensoul nerf" into the dialog with other expectations - perhaps hoping the devs also nerf the whole ring. There's a LOT of people damning the ring for giving all the buffs to players - because they should be providing buffs to a group. I don't play group content - who wants to deal with someone who has normally 750+ ms ping, often spiking to 999+?

I'm feeling as if you're doing a bait and switch.

Avran_Sylt · May 2023

Heavy Attacks restore resources. If you want a HA enabling set/ability/buff it needs to remove the resource gain for HA such that the player needs to invest into resource regen through other means to mirror the resource regen opportunity cost that LA builds face.

Edit: Also, do HA builds still weave abilities after the HA? Or is it just holding down M1?

Kusto · May 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not using a HA build. I don't want my Oakensoul nerfed any more. I don't parse. I quest. So you're perfectly happy to cut me down to size when this is the first time I've been able to handle a quest boss.

Thanks. /s

Oakensoul wasn't nerfed. Empower and storm master set was. So nothing changes for you.

No one's asking Oakensoul ring to be nerfed. It's the sergeant's + storm build with lightning staff and passives that's OP af.

Excuse me?

Kusto wrote: »

That's exactly why oaken ha needs nerfing.

The problem is, that if oaken ha gets nerfed, so will my oakensoul situation. It's not a one off. Now if it's just the set being nerfed, well that works for me because I've never used that set.

But every one of you are calling for "oakensoul" nerfs. Which is not and cannot be just HA - and saying it's the set and empower is disingenuous - if you're calling for empower and set nerf, fine. But you're calling it oakensoul nerf.

And I personally don't care about empower. I DO care that you're all inserting "oakensoul nerf" into the dialog with other expectations - perhaps hoping the devs also nerf the whole ring. There's a LOT of people damning the ring for giving all the buffs to players - because they should be providing buffs to a group. I don't play group content - who wants to deal with someone who has normally 750+ ms ping, often spiking to 999+?

I'm feeling as if you're doing a bait and switch.

We're just calling it the oaken HA build. Oakensoul itself is fine and when used with some other sets or non HA build. Same with the sergeant, storm and lightning staff if used separately. HA builds existed before Oakensoul and are not OP at all. It's just this particular build that's over performing.
Zos really messed up there. I'm not sure what can be done to fix it so non oaken HA builds don't get nerfed to oblivion and Oakensoul itself doesn't become useless when used in builds like yours.
Maybe the only way to go is the pale order treatment like been mentioned by some. This way it remains strong for solo and maybe in 4 man content but more average in trials making other builds also viable for the mid tier. Just add condition to the ring- "reduces your damage done by x% per group member"

TaSheen · May 2023

Okay, you're not really wanting to trash the build that finally let me get through Vandcia without dying a dozen times (no that is NOT an exaggeration! My ping means that those lovely NPC synergies are not happening for me - lag is not a kind mistress).

Problem: ZOS is a bludgeon. Every time one of you posts 'oakensoul needs a nerf" (regardless if you put "ha" in there somewher), considering my experience with ZOS since mid 2017.... I'm seeing them whack what I'm using to enjoy the combat for the FIRST time ever.

So if you could just please do "nerf ha builds" without adding oakensoul....?

jtm1018 · May 2023

Where can I read the patch note for the necrom chapter?

Beilin_Balreis_Colcan · May 2023

jtm1018 wrote: »

Where can I read the patch note for the necrom chapter?

They're in the 'Public Test Server' section of the forum. Look for the patch notes for versions 9.0.0 and higher.

Wolfkeks · May 2023

jtm1018 wrote: »

Where can I read the patch note for the necrom chapter?

These are the things being discussed here:

- Buffs and Debuffs
Empower: Reduced this bonus to 70%, down from 80%.

- Storm Master:
This set’s bonus damage with Light and Heavy Attacks now only works against monsters.
Reduced the duration of the bonus to 8 seconds, down from 20 seconds.
Reduced the cooldown to 5 seconds, down from 10.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631584/pts-patch-notes-v9-0-0#latest

Daoin · May 2023

After some careful thought and consideration i think the way oaken HA build the way it is now should have been left alone, besides what is stopping people that dont like it from just not using it or those that do for reasons of thier own from having that build along with any others they also like. I like this oaken HA build i guess but it is by no means my go-to thing for anything in particular, i dont think this build outshines everything in eso or overperforms but it is nice to have a character with this build back there on the benches for me. Once the update is done if there is a noticable difference i think this build will be off the benches and out the door for me rather than back into the field.

loveeso · May 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm feeling as if you're doing a bait and switch.

You are absolutely right. That's clearly what they are doing. Many prefect examples of that in both my other thread and this one

Heelie · May 2023

Someone stil has to explain to me how going from 80-70% on em

loveeso wrote: »

My previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7870041#Comment_7870041

Heelie wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559

Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win

Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry

This is really bad interpretation of data. One, there is no citation of the source of every fight. DPS is in a time domain, so fight time matters a lot. Are these parses in the same fight? Or did you take the highest two-bar DPS parse and the highest one-bar parse? The only way to compare two-bar and one-bar DPS is to compare two players in the same fight performing the same role. Fight time here is the most important factor as in shorter fights you do more damage as uptimes will average higher and hard hitting skills like your ultimate will have higher "uptime" as it will be running for more of the fight, any other comparison method is cherry-picking and is a disingenuous misrepresentation of data. You don't compare two race cars driving on two different days to decide a championship.

After a careful review of the reply, it is evident that it is replete with numerous erroneous claims and misunderstandings about data analysis.

First of all, the source of the data is provided and easily identifiable. This means that anyone can go and check the database to verify the data. Moreover, the report does not cherry-pick data; rather, it presents the highest achieved DPS in the world for each boss fight for both playstyles.

Secondly, since, again, as clearly stated, it compares the world-best DPS achieved by each playstyle player in each boss fight, the specific fight times and contexts are irrelevant to the comparison of the playstyles, as each playstyle is being evaluated based on their overall performance across multiple fights.

Thirdly, the critique goes on to suggest that the only way to compare one-bar and two-bar DPS is to compare two players in the same fight performing the same role. This assertion is flawed because it is possible to compare DPS metrics across different fights. In fact, comparing metrics like DPS across multiple events (fights) is a common practice in many statistical analyses.

Fourthly, the claim that fight time is the most important factor when comparing one-bar and two-bar DPS is a gross oversimplification. While fight time is undoubtedly an important factor to consider, there are several other variables that must be controlled for, such as the player's gear, build, skill rotation, and boss mechanics. Ignoring these other variables could lead to biased or erroneous conclusions. Fortunately, we are protected from errors like this by choosing an aggregated statistic such as the top DPS per playstyle which factors in all relevant factors. DPS takes into account not only the duration of the fight but also the damage output achieved during that time, as well as the many other factors that contribute to a player's or group's performance in a boss fight. By using DPS as a comparative metric, we are able to consider all of these relevant factors together in a single measure, which helps to reduce the impact of individual variations or outliers. This makes it easier to draw meaningful and accurate conclusions about the relative effectiveness of different playstyles, gear, builds, skill rotations, and boss mechanics, without being misled by oversimplified or incomplete analyses.

Fifthly, your statement contains an erroneous assumption that the uptimes of skills and ultimates are always inversely proportional to the length of the boss fight. This assumption is false, as demonstrated by the example of continuously casting Wall of Elements for 100% uptime during both a 35-second and a one-hour-long fight. Similarly, your assertion about Ultimates is not universally true, as demonstrated by the possibility of a lower uptime for the same ultimate in a 55-second fight compared to a 70-second fight.

Moreover, your attempting to challenge the notion that LADDs are already significantly more powerful than HADDs this way is quite amusing, as it actually reinforces my argument that groups comprised of LADDs inflict substantially more damage than those composed of HADDs. Your argument suggests that LADDs may not have as high of a DPS as the data indicates, due to their ability to complete fights more quickly. However, this is precisely why groups consisting of LADDs are able to inflict more damage than those comprised of HADDs. This is because DPS is a function of time, and shorter durations correspond to higher DPS.

Lastly, the analogy of comparing two race cars driving on two different days to decide a championship is irrelevant and misleading. Comparing one-bar and two-bar DPS is not analogous to comparing two different races on different days. A better analogy would be comparing the lap times of two different race cars on the same track, with the same weather conditions. Fortunately for us, the weather is always the same in boss fights.

In conclusion, the report's interpretation of the data is not flawed, as the report uses a valid methodology to compare the world-best DPS achieved by each playstyle player in each boss fight. Your critique's assertions that the source of every fight needs citation, fight time matters more, and comparing two race cars is a better analogy are not valid.
It is essential to approach data analysis with rigor and objectivity and avoid making unfounded assertions that could lead to erroneous conclusions.

I looked into the logs of the parses you compared for the DSR HM 1, first, since then a better one-bar parse came out. I have picked that one instead

I compared the uptimes of what I think are the most important buffs / variables

DSR HM 1 Two-Bar
Player Miracle Mineral Suplement
DPS: 139,628.2
Time 3:13
Major Courage: 98.93%
Major Berserk: 8.27%
Major Slayer: 56.85%
Major Force: 53.49%
Powerful Assault: 82.66%
Major Vulnerability: 27.5%
PP Ultimate: 1.55 ups

DSR HM 1 One-Bar

Player: Shmul'ke
DPS: 56,382.9
Time 6:57
Major Courage: 42.23%%
Major Berserk:19.28%
Major Slayer: 37.51%
Major Force: 46.26%
Powerful Assault: 0%
Major Vulnerability: 0%
PP Ultimate: 0.51 ups

DELTA IN DSR HM 1
DPS: 83k Delta
time 3:44 Delta
Major Courage: 56.7% Delta
Major Berserk: 11% Delta
Major Slayer: 19.34% Delta
Major Force: 7.23% Delta
Powerful Assault: 82.66% Delta
Major Vulnerability: 27.5% Delta
1.04 ups Delta

1st
Super obvious here is that with the exception of major Berserk (due to more sorcerer players) The support player in the two-bar parse has much higher uptimes, more than a 56% delta in Major Courage and in the one-bar parse the supports are not even using Powerful assault 82% Delta. The ult from pillagers profit (Per second) is also a lot higher more than 1 ups delta.

This is one Thing that you did not account for whatsoever in your comparison and you did not provide the numbers. Here they are for all to see.

2nd
The two bar player is using Azureblight. An Azureblight dd will always do a lot more damage than anyone else, We can get an idea of the damage that Azureblight is providing by comparing the damage 139,628.2 to the next best dps in the same fight 114,093.6, so Azureblight is about 25.000 dps more than what you would expect a median two-bar parse to do.

3rd is the fight time, as I mentioned earlier fight time matters a lot, given 100% HP to 0% HP in 3 mins a group needs to to roughly 33% boss hp per minute in damage, if a group does it in 7 minutes instead they need to do 14% per minute, the expected dps for a 7 min fight is less than half. if you look into Lylanar and Turlassil, and actually understand the fight you will know that there are two strats, safe and nuke. Nuke parses are all the big 100k+ parses, the 60-40k parses are all safe strats, even if played on two bar builds.

The difference in time is always huge as in this case because in one strat you wait out a few mechanics and have a lot of lulls in the beginning. You also kill the bosses individually in two groups, the nuke strat, the one used in the two-bar parse here, you stack the bosses. This also naturally means damage dealers doing a lot more damage. Just by the way that the fight is played, nothing to do with it being a two or one bar build.

So while the two bar parse is a lot higher, it’s not a fair comparison because of these factors

Azureblight, a unique set that only one dd (some times two) can use
Huge difference in uptimes on the most major damage buffs.
Big difference in fight time as well as strategy.

I suggest these factors contribute a lot more to the dps difference than the inherent difference between a one-bar parse and a two-bar build.

to prove this I look into the one-bar log again
there were 3 two-bar players in this fight, one on Zen’s

(36194.0+44847.2+59,640.5)/3 = 46893.9

If we discount the zen’s dd and just look at damage for the two, two-bar parse dds we get this number

(44847.2+59,640.5)/2 = 52243.85

That is still less than the highest one bar parse.
if we look at the difference between the best two-bar parse in the raid 59,640.5 compared to the best one-bar parse 56,382.9.

Roughly a 5-6% damage between the two highest parses, I think this is a much more realistic number for the actual difference in performance between two and one bar setups. The best two bar players are 5 maybe up to 10% above in the group, the average is about even. 300% more damage is not what a two-bar player can expect to do more than a one-bar player, they're grouped with.

In conclussion the data is flawed as the factos contributing to the two-bar players dps has nothing to do with it being two-bar and not one-bar. But due to other factors such as better support players, better gear, and a better strategy.

loveeso · June 2023

Since the update has been live for some time now, let's revisit [Snip]

The highest HA DPS on the trial dummy after the update? Currently 83,417.5.
Before the update? 100599.7.
That's just 82.92% of previously achievable DPS.

vAS+2 - the only trial where HA lightning sorcs were really powerful? Currently 76600.1
Before the update? 113655.9
That's only 67.39% of previously achievable DPS.

What happened to "just a 1-3% nerf" guys

?

[Edited for minor bait]

jaws343 · June 2023

loveeso wrote: »

Since the update has been live for some time now, let's revisit [Snip].

The highest HA DPS on the trial dummy after the update? Currently 83,417.5.
Before the update? 100599.7.
That's just 82.92% of previously achievable DPS.

vAS+2 - the only trial where HA lightning sorcs were really powerful? Currently 76600.1
Before the update? 113655.9
That's only 67.39% of previously achievable DPS.

What happened to "just a 1-3% nerf" guys ?

What happened was, players were stubborn and didn't adjust their gear...

I only did the 3M parse on my current build. But pre update: 30K, post update 28.5K, just holding the heavy attack button down. ~5% loss without using any skills. Which, falls in line with the expectation with the empower nerf. And fits that it was a larger portion of DPS loss since the parses are done without using skills.

[Edited quote]

loveeso · June 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Since the update has been live for some time now, let's revisit [Snip]

The highest HA DPS on the trial dummy after the update? Currently 83,417.5.
Before the update? 100599.7.
That's just 82.92% of previously achievable DPS.

vAS+2 - the only trial where HA lightning sorcs were really powerful? Currently 76600.1
Before the update? 113655.9
That's only 67.39% of previously achievable DPS.

What happened to "just a 1-3% nerf" guys ?

What happened was, players were stubborn and didn't adjust their gear...

I only did the 3M parse on my current build. But pre update: 30K, post update 28.5K, just holding the heavy attack button down. ~5% loss without using any skills. Which, falls in line with the expectation with the empower nerf. And fits that it was a larger portion of DPS loss since the parses are done without using skills.

World top HA DPS players on the trial dummy and in trifectas not optimising and not using skills? [Snip]
The 12.5% nerf to empower and the nerf of 60% to SM duration resulted in, like I wrote in my first post:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

Back then, I also tested other sets and they were still weaker than the nerfed SM.

[Snip]

[Edited for bait/quote]

SirLeeMinion · June 2023

loveeso wrote: »

Since the update has been live for some time now, let's revisit [Snip]

The highest HA DPS on the trial dummy after the update? Currently 83,417.5.
Before the update? 100599.7.
That's just 82.92% of previously achievable DPS.

vAS+2 - the only trial where HA lightning sorcs were really powerful? Currently 76600.1
Before the update? 113655.9
That's only 67.39% of previously achievable DPS.

What happened to "just a 1-3% nerf" guys ?

It was clear before the update that this would be the result. Thank you for your detailed data and the time you put into this topic. If the goal was for only certain types of players and builds to be able to tackle more difficult content, then I feel good about helping them reduce the number of players clearing vet trials and vet DLC dungeons. I've spent too much time and money on ESO anyway.

[Edited quote]

jaws343 · June 2023

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Since the update has been live for some time now, let's revisit [Snip]

The highest HA DPS on the trial dummy after the update? Currently 83,417.5.
Before the update? 100599.7.
That's just 82.92% of previously achievable DPS.

vAS+2 - the only trial where HA lightning sorcs were really powerful? Currently 76600.1
Before the update? 113655.9
That's only 67.39% of previously achievable DPS.

What happened to "just a 1-3% nerf" guys ?

What happened was, players were stubborn and didn't adjust their gear...

I only did the 3M parse on my current build. But pre update: 30K, post update 28.5K, just holding the heavy attack button down. ~5% loss without using any skills. Which, falls in line with the expectation with the empower nerf. And fits that it was a larger portion of DPS loss since the parses are done without using skills.

World top HA DPS players on the trial dummy and in trifectas not optimising and not using skills? [Snip]
The 12.5% nerf to empower and the nerf of 60% to SM duration resulted in, like I wrote in my first post:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

Back then, I also tested other sets and they were still weaker than the nerfed SM.

[Snip]

It's not a 12% nerf to empower... it's 6%.

Numbers do lie, because numbers don't tell you what gear those players are actually running.

And again, only 1 gear set was nerfed. And, if you actually changed your gear, you would be doing more damage than that nerfed gear set. Which, is less of a damage impact than stubbornly continuing to run SM.

And in fact, in small man and solo player, Nobles was already outperforming SM anyways. So effectively, in that majority of content, players running SM last patch were already running an inferior build setup. And players running Nobles, only lost ~3% of their overall damage due to the Empower 6% nerf.

[Edited quote]

loveeso · June 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Since the update has been live for some time now, let's revisit [Snip]

The highest HA DPS on the trial dummy after the update? Currently 83,417.5.
Before the update? 100599.7.
That's just 82.92% of previously achievable DPS.

vAS+2 - the only trial where HA lightning sorcs were really powerful? Currently 76600.1
Before the update? 113655.9
That's only 67.39% of previously achievable DPS.

What happened to "just a 1-3% nerf" guys ?

What happened was, players were stubborn and didn't adjust their gear...

I only did the 3M parse on my current build. But pre update: 30K, post update 28.5K, just holding the heavy attack button down. ~5% loss without using any skills. Which, falls in line with the expectation with the empower nerf. And fits that it was a larger portion of DPS loss since the parses are done without using skills.

World top HA DPS players on the trial dummy and in trifectas not optimising and not using skills? [Snip]
The 12.5% nerf to empower and the nerf of 60% to SM duration resulted in, like I wrote in my first post:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

Back then, I also tested other sets and they were still weaker than the nerfed SM.

The numbers don't lie. If you want to prove them wrong, show us a parse that beats everyone in the world and proves your point. Otherwise, don't waste our time

It's not a 12% nerf to empower... it's 6%.

Numbers do lie, because numbers don't tell you what gear those players are actually running.

And again, only 1 gear set was nerfed. And, if you actually changed your gear, you would be doing more damage than that nerfed gear set. Which, is less of a damage impact than stubbornly continuing to run SM.

And in fact, in small man and solo player, Nobles was already outperforming SM anyways. So effectively, in that majority of content, players running SM last patch were already running an inferior build setup. And players running Nobles, only lost ~3% of their overall damage due to the Empower 6% nerf.

I see their gear, bruh. Everyone can see it. Just go to ESO logs. And they do use skills. Other sets have been tested - they are still weaker than the nerfed SM. And 70%/80% = 0.875 which means that, as I wrote earlier in this thread, it's a 12.5% nerf TO EMPOWER. [Snip]

[Edited quote and for minor bait]

jaws343 · June 2023

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Since the update has been live for some time now, let's revisit [Snip]

The highest HA DPS on the trial dummy after the update? Currently 83,417.5.
Before the update? 100599.7.
That's just 82.92% of previously achievable DPS.

vAS+2 - the only trial where HA lightning sorcs were really powerful? Currently 76600.1
Before the update? 113655.9
That's only 67.39% of previously achievable DPS.

What happened to "just a 1-3% nerf" guys ?

What happened was, players were stubborn and didn't adjust their gear...

I only did the 3M parse on my current build. But pre update: 30K, post update 28.5K, just holding the heavy attack button down. ~5% loss without using any skills. Which, falls in line with the expectation with the empower nerf. And fits that it was a larger portion of DPS loss since the parses are done without using skills.

World top HA DPS players on the trial dummy and in trifectas not optimising and not using skills? [Snip]
The 12.5% nerf to empower and the nerf of 60% to SM duration resulted in, like I wrote in my first post:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

Back then, I also tested other sets and they were still weaker than the nerfed SM.

[Snip]

It's not a 12% nerf to empower... it's 6%.

Numbers do lie, because numbers don't tell you what gear those players are actually running.

And again, only 1 gear set was nerfed. And, if you actually changed your gear, you would be doing more damage than that nerfed gear set. Which, is less of a damage impact than stubbornly continuing to run SM.

And in fact, in small man and solo player, Nobles was already outperforming SM anyways. So effectively, in that majority of content, players running SM last patch were already running an inferior build setup. And players running Nobles, only lost ~3% of their overall damage due to the Empower 6% nerf.

I see their gear, bruh. Everyone can see it. Just go to ESO logs. And they use skills. Other sets have been tested - they are still weaker than nerfed SM. And 70%/80% = 0.875 which means that, as I wrote earlier in this thread, it's a 12.5% nerf TO EMPOWER. [Snip]

First of all, you are intentionally using that 12% number to mislead the actual damage loss. A 12% nerf to the value of the buff equates to an actual 6% nerf in damage. I mean, that can proven with basic math.

No empower: 10K damage
Pre-Nerf +80%: 18K damage
Post-Nerf +70%: 17K damage

17K/18K= .944 which is 6%

The nerf is a 6% nerf to the actual damage. Which is the only thing that matters. That 12.5% number is meaningless and dishonest.

And yeah, of course people use skills. The reason I did testing without skills, is because skills are not being adjust for this patch. So skill damage should literally be the same pre patch as it is post patch. The only difference was 1 set and -6% empower damage.

So, when running the Nobles/Serg pre patch and post patch, the only difference in the damage is approximately 3-4%. Pre-patch, that setup was doing around 93-94K, post patch it is doing around 90K (I just hit 86K with Matriarch, and Tormentor adds another 5K or so in my experience, and the top parse are all using Tormentor). So, a whopping 10% less DPS than the SM build.

Adapt better I guess, because 90K is still crazy high for low effort.

[Edited quote]

fizl101 · June 2023

I can't give logs as I am on console (trial dummy parses)-

Pre patch with seargeants storm master - absolute highest i managed - 104.1k (the crit gods were nice that day). average parse for me was 99-101k
Post patch with same set up - 94.2k (again another nice crit gods day). average parse for me is 88-91k

Post patch swapping to Pillar of Nirn - approx 92k
Post patch swapping to Infallible Aether - approx 89k
Haven't tried noble duelist post patch yet, but expecting similar values

Definitely lost more than 3-6% damage

CameraBeardThePirate · June 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Since the update has been live for some time now, let's revisit and see if the anti-HA crowd was right, lying, or wrong.

The highest HA DPS on the trial dummy after the update? Currently 83,417.5.
Before the update? 100599.7.
That's just 82.92% of previously achievable DPS.

vAS+2 - the only trial where HA lightning sorcs were really powerful? Currently 76600.1
Before the update? 113655.9
That's only 67.39% of previously achievable DPS.

What happened to "just a 1-3% nerf" guys ?

What happened was, players were stubborn and didn't adjust their gear...

I only did the 3M parse on my current build. But pre update: 30K, post update 28.5K, just holding the heavy attack button down. ~5% loss without using any skills. Which, falls in line with the expectation with the empower nerf. And fits that it was a larger portion of DPS loss since the parses are done without using skills.

World top HA DPS players on the trial dummy and in trifectas not optimising and not using skills? Bruh Just stop it already
The 12.5% nerf to empower and the nerf of 60% to SM duration resulted in, like I wrote in my first post:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

Back then, I also tested other sets and they were still weaker than the nerfed SM.

The numbers don't lie. If you want to prove them wrong, show us a parse that beats everyone in the world and proves your point. Otherwise, don't waste our time

It's not a 12% nerf to empower... it's 6%.

Numbers do lie, because numbers don't tell you what gear those players are actually running.

And again, only 1 gear set was nerfed. And, if you actually changed your gear, you would be doing more damage than that nerfed gear set. Which, is less of a damage impact than stubbornly continuing to run SM.

And in fact, in small man and solo player, Nobles was already outperforming SM anyways. So effectively, in that majority of content, players running SM last patch were already running an inferior build setup. And players running Nobles, only lost ~3% of their overall damage due to the Empower 6% nerf.

I see their gear, bruh. Everyone can see it. Just go to ESO logs. And they use skills. Other sets have been tested - they are still weaker than nerfed SM. And 70%/80% = 0.875 which means that, as I wrote earlier in this thread, it's a 12.5% nerf TO EMPOWER. Stop with the fairy tales

First of all, you are intentionally using that 12% number to mislead the actual damage loss. A 12% nerf to the value of the buff equates to an actual 6% nerf in damage. I mean, that can proven with basic math.

No empower: 10K damage
Pre-Nerf +80%: 18K damage
Post-Nerf +70%: 17K damage

17K/18K= .944 which is 6%

The nerf is a 6% nerf to the actual damage. Which is the only thing that matters. That 12.5% number is meaningless and dishonest.

And yeah, of course people use skills. The reason I did testing without skills, is because skills are not being adjust for this patch. So skill damage should literally be the same pre patch as it is post patch. The only difference was 1 set and -6% empower damage.

So, when running the Nobles/Serg pre patch and post patch, the only difference in the damage is approximately 3-4%. Pre-patch, that setup was doing around 93-94K, post patch it is doing around 90K (I just hit 86K with Matriarch, and Tormentor adds another 5K or so in my experience, and the top parse are all using Tormentor). So, a whopping 10% less DPS than the SM build.

Adapt better I guess, because 90K is still crazy high for low effort.

I am very clear in what I write so please try to read with comprehension. If you see "12.5% nerf to empower" it means "to empower", not to overall damage. I gave you so many chances to come clean but you still try to deceive everyone here with your fairy tales. Just stop it. As I said before, if you want to prove all the top players in the world whose logs are available on esologs wrong, just post your own logs that show how you do more damage than everyone in the world has achieved so far (or ask a friend if you are not good enough). Otherwise, just stop wasting everyone's time

I just posted my DPS parse. 85K using Matriarch instead of Tormentor. Using Nobles and Sergeants. Should be around 90K with Tormentor. That's not deception, that is the parse for that. 90K DPS or so with the correct pet morph. Literally anyone can reproduce that. I'll even give you the skills setup:

Matriarch (86K), Tormentor (90K)
Scamp
Hurricane
Prey
Barbed Trap
Storm Attro

90k? Awesome! You can complete any content in the game with little to no issue.

BlueRaven · June 2023

Xx

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Since the update has been live for some time now, let's revisit [Snip]

The highest HA DPS on the trial dummy after the update? Currently 83,417.5.
Before the update? 100599.7.
That's just 82.92% of previously achievable DPS.

vAS+2 - the only trial where HA lightning sorcs were really powerful? Currently 76600.1
Before the update? 113655.9
That's only 67.39% of previously achievable DPS.

What happened to "just a 1-3% nerf" guys ?

What happened was, players were stubborn and didn't adjust their gear...

I only did the 3M parse on my current build. But pre update: 30K, post update 28.5K, just holding the heavy attack button down. ~5% loss without using any skills. Which, falls in line with the expectation with the empower nerf. And fits that it was a larger portion of DPS loss since the parses are done without using skills.

World top HA DPS players on the trial dummy and in trifectas not optimising and not using skills? Bruh Just stop it already
The 12.5% nerf to empower and the nerf of 60% to SM duration resulted in, like I wrote in my first post:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

Back then, I also tested other sets and they were still weaker than the nerfed SM.

[Snip]

It's not a 12% nerf to empower... it's 6%.

Numbers do lie, because numbers don't tell you what gear those players are actually running.

And again, only 1 gear set was nerfed. And, if you actually changed your gear, you would be doing more damage than that nerfed gear set. Which, is less of a damage impact than stubbornly continuing to run SM.

And in fact, in small man and solo player, Nobles was already outperforming SM anyways. So effectively, in that majority of content, players running SM last patch were already running an inferior build setup. And players running Nobles, only lost ~3% of their overall damage due to the Empower 6% nerf.

I see their gear, bruh. Everyone can see it. Just go to ESO logs. And they use skills. Other sets have been tested - they are still weaker than nerfed SM. And 70%/80% = 0.875 which means that, as I wrote earlier in this thread, it's a 12.5% nerf TO EMPOWER. [Snip]

First of all, you are intentionally using that 12% number to mislead the actual damage loss. A 12% nerf to the value of the buff equates to an actual 6% nerf in damage. I mean, that can proven with basic math.

No empower: 10K damage
Pre-Nerf +80%: 18K damage
Post-Nerf +70%: 17K damage

17K/18K= .944 which is 6%

The nerf is a 6% nerf to the actual damage. Which is the only thing that matters. That 12.5% number is meaningless and dishonest.

And yeah, of course people use skills. The reason I did testing without skills, is because skills are not being adjust for this patch. So skill damage should literally be the same pre patch as it is post patch. The only difference was 1 set and -6% empower damage.

So, when running the Nobles/Serg pre patch and post patch, the only difference in the damage is approximately 3-4%. Pre-patch, that setup was doing around 93-94K, post patch it is doing around 90K (I just hit 86K with Matriarch, and Tormentor adds another 5K or so in my experience, and the top parse are all using Tormentor). So, a whopping 10% less DPS than the SM build.

Adapt better I guess, because 90K is still crazy high for low effort.

Look basic math.

Changing something from 80 units to 70 units is a 12.5% decrease.

If a piece of gear added 100% weapon damage and it was changed to 0% is that just a 50% nerf to you?

Before: 10K damage
Pre-Nerf: 20K damage
Post-Nerf : 10K damage

It’s only a 50% nerf!

Because if that is the argument here, then the claims of nerfs in U35 were highly, highly exaggerated.

[Edited quote]

jaws343 · June 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Since the update has been live for some time now, let's revisit and see if the anti-HA crowd was right, lying, or wrong.

The highest HA DPS on the trial dummy after the update? Currently 83,417.5.
Before the update? 100599.7.
That's just 82.92% of previously achievable DPS.

vAS+2 - the only trial where HA lightning sorcs were really powerful? Currently 76600.1
Before the update? 113655.9
That's only 67.39% of previously achievable DPS.

What happened to "just a 1-3% nerf" guys ?

What happened was, players were stubborn and didn't adjust their gear...

I only did the 3M parse on my current build. But pre update: 30K, post update 28.5K, just holding the heavy attack button down. ~5% loss without using any skills. Which, falls in line with the expectation with the empower nerf. And fits that it was a larger portion of DPS loss since the parses are done without using skills.

World top HA DPS players on the trial dummy and in trifectas not optimising and not using skills? Bruh Just stop it already
The 12.5% nerf to empower and the nerf of 60% to SM duration resulted in, like I wrote in my first post:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

Back then, I also tested other sets and they were still weaker than the nerfed SM.

The numbers don't lie. If you want to prove them wrong, show us a parse that beats everyone in the world and proves your point. Otherwise, don't waste our time

It's not a 12% nerf to empower... it's 6%.

Numbers do lie, because numbers don't tell you what gear those players are actually running.

And again, only 1 gear set was nerfed. And, if you actually changed your gear, you would be doing more damage than that nerfed gear set. Which, is less of a damage impact than stubbornly continuing to run SM.

And in fact, in small man and solo player, Nobles was already outperforming SM anyways. So effectively, in that majority of content, players running SM last patch were already running an inferior build setup. And players running Nobles, only lost ~3% of their overall damage due to the Empower 6% nerf.

I see their gear, bruh. Everyone can see it. Just go to ESO logs. And they use skills. Other sets have been tested - they are still weaker than nerfed SM. And 70%/80% = 0.875 which means that, as I wrote earlier in this thread, it's a 12.5% nerf TO EMPOWER. Stop with the fairy tales

First of all, you are intentionally using that 12% number to mislead the actual damage loss. A 12% nerf to the value of the buff equates to an actual 6% nerf in damage. I mean, that can proven with basic math.

No empower: 10K damage
Pre-Nerf +80%: 18K damage
Post-Nerf +70%: 17K damage

17K/18K= .944 which is 6%

The nerf is a 6% nerf to the actual damage. Which is the only thing that matters. That 12.5% number is meaningless and dishonest.

And yeah, of course people use skills. The reason I did testing without skills, is because skills are not being adjust for this patch. So skill damage should literally be the same pre patch as it is post patch. The only difference was 1 set and -6% empower damage.

So, when running the Nobles/Serg pre patch and post patch, the only difference in the damage is approximately 3-4%. Pre-patch, that setup was doing around 93-94K, post patch it is doing around 90K (I just hit 86K with Matriarch, and Tormentor adds another 5K or so in my experience, and the top parse are all using Tormentor). So, a whopping 10% less DPS than the SM build.

Adapt better I guess, because 90K is still crazy high for low effort.

I am very clear in what I write so please try to read with comprehension. If you see "12.5% nerf to empower" it means "to empower", not to overall damage. I gave you so many chances to come clean but you still try to deceive everyone here with your fairy tales. Just stop it. As I said before, if you want to prove all the top players in the world whose logs are available on esologs wrong, just post your own logs that show how you do more damage than everyone in the world has achieved so far (or ask a friend if you are not good enough). Otherwise, just stop wasting everyone's time

I just posted my DPS parse. 85K using Matriarch instead of Tormentor. Using Nobles and Sergeants. Should be around 90K with Tormentor. That's not deception, that is the parse for that. 90K DPS or so with the correct pet morph. Literally anyone can reproduce that. I'll even give you the skills setup:

Matriarch (86K), Tormentor (90K)
Scamp
Hurricane
Prey
Barbed Trap
Storm Attro

90k? Awesome! You can complete any content in the game with little to no issue.

Absolutely. Still 35K more DPS than my two bar solo build that also completes content with a bit more of a struggle.

jaws343 · June 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Xx

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Since the update has been live for some time now, let's revisit and see if the anti-HA crowd was right, lying, or wrong.

The highest HA DPS on the trial dummy after the update? Currently 83,417.5.
Before the update? 100599.7.
That's just 82.92% of previously achievable DPS.

vAS+2 - the only trial where HA lightning sorcs were really powerful? Currently 76600.1
Before the update? 113655.9
That's only 67.39% of previously achievable DPS.

What happened to "just a 1-3% nerf" guys ?

What happened was, players were stubborn and didn't adjust their gear...

I only did the 3M parse on my current build. But pre update: 30K, post update 28.5K, just holding the heavy attack button down. ~5% loss without using any skills. Which, falls in line with the expectation with the empower nerf. And fits that it was a larger portion of DPS loss since the parses are done without using skills.

World top HA DPS players on the trial dummy and in trifectas not optimising and not using skills? Bruh Just stop it already
The 12.5% nerf to empower and the nerf of 60% to SM duration resulted in, like I wrote in my first post:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

Back then, I also tested other sets and they were still weaker than the nerfed SM.

The numbers don't lie. If you want to prove them wrong, show us a parse that beats everyone in the world and proves your point. Otherwise, don't waste our time

It's not a 12% nerf to empower... it's 6%.

Numbers do lie, because numbers don't tell you what gear those players are actually running.

And again, only 1 gear set was nerfed. And, if you actually changed your gear, you would be doing more damage than that nerfed gear set. Which, is less of a damage impact than stubbornly continuing to run SM.

And in fact, in small man and solo player, Nobles was already outperforming SM anyways. So effectively, in that majority of content, players running SM last patch were already running an inferior build setup. And players running Nobles, only lost ~3% of their overall damage due to the Empower 6% nerf.

I see their gear, bruh. Everyone can see it. Just go to ESO logs. And they use skills. Other sets have been tested - they are still weaker than nerfed SM. And 70%/80% = 0.875 which means that, as I wrote earlier in this thread, it's a 12.5% nerf TO EMPOWER. Stop with the fairy tales

First of all, you are intentionally using that 12% number to mislead the actual damage loss. A 12% nerf to the value of the buff equates to an actual 6% nerf in damage. I mean, that can proven with basic math.

No empower: 10K damage
Pre-Nerf +80%: 18K damage
Post-Nerf +70%: 17K damage

17K/18K= .944 which is 6%

The nerf is a 6% nerf to the actual damage. Which is the only thing that matters. That 12.5% number is meaningless and dishonest.

And yeah, of course people use skills. The reason I did testing without skills, is because skills are not being adjust for this patch. So skill damage should literally be the same pre patch as it is post patch. The only difference was 1 set and -6% empower damage.

So, when running the Nobles/Serg pre patch and post patch, the only difference in the damage is approximately 3-4%. Pre-patch, that setup was doing around 93-94K, post patch it is doing around 90K (I just hit 86K with Matriarch, and Tormentor adds another 5K or so in my experience, and the top parse are all using Tormentor). So, a whopping 10% less DPS than the SM build.

Adapt better I guess, because 90K is still crazy high for low effort.

Look basic math.

Changing something from 80 units to 70 units is a 12.5% decrease.

If a piece of gear added 100% weapon damage and it was changed to 0% is that just a 50% nerf to you?

Before: 10K damage
Pre-Nerf: 20K damage
Post-Nerf : 10K damage

It’s only a 50% nerf!

Because if that is the argument here, then the claims of nerfs in U35 were highly, highly exaggerated.

The problem is, they are using the value nerf to empower, from 80 to 70, in an intentional way to make it seem like the actual damage nerf is greater than it is.

Yes, the value of empower dropped by 12%.

But, the actual damage loss from that is only 6%.

It is an important distinction. Because the overall damage that the buff provides is the important part of the equation.

So, yeah, in your example. A buff that add +100% at all times, that is reduced by 100% is a 100% nerf to that buff, but only a 50% loss in damage. You aren't suddenly doing 0 damage because of that buff nerf. You are doing half as much as you did before the buff. So, I guess, thanks for that great exaggerated example that proves my point.

jaws343 · June 2023

Here's an 87.6k parse I just did with nobles and serg.

ZOS_Volpe · June 2023

Hi there,

We've removed some baiting comments. This is a friendly reminder that comments need to adhere to our Forum Rules. Please note that derailing a thread with off-topic or baiting comments will result in the thread being closed.

Thank you for your understanding.

loveeso · June 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

Here's an 87.6k parse I just did with nobles and serg.

Even if your screenshot were legit, it would be -13% DPS on a trial dummy compared to the highest achievable DPS on an HA build pre-patch which means that you would just prove yoursefl (and the rest of "it's just 1-3% nerf" crowd) wrong and what I wrote in my first post in this thread right, here is the quotation for your convenience:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

The truth is that the only thind that the anti-HA crowd has achieved is this:

1. the strongest HA build nerfed to 80k+
2. but to compensate for that DPS loss, one can just buy Necrom, slap an Oakensoul ring on an Arcanist, start beaming and have a direct replacement for the lighting HA sorcerer (but easier to play)

Congrats

CameraBeardThePirate · June 2023

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Here's an 87.6k parse I just did with nobles and serg.

Even if your screenshot were legit, it would be -13% DPS on a trial dummy compared to the highest achievable DPS on an HA build pre-patch which means that you would just prove yoursefl (and the rest of "it's just 1-3% nerf" crowd) wrong and what I wrote in my first post in this thread right, here is the quotation for your convenience:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

The truth is that the only thind that the anti-HA crowd has achieved is this:

1. the strongest HA build nerfed to 80k+
2. but to compensate for that DPS loss, one can just buy Necrom, slap an Oakensoul ring on an Arcanist, start beaming and have a direct replacement for the lighting HA sorcerer (but easier to play)

Congrats

How are you already back to accusing the other poster of lying not even 10 minutes after doing so got the thread locked?

[Snip]

[Edited for bait]

loveeso · June 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Here's an 87.6k parse I just did with nobles and serg.

Even if your screenshot were legit, it would be -13% DPS on a trial dummy compared to the highest achievable DPS on an HA build pre-patch which means that you would just prove yoursefl (and the rest of "it's just 1-3% nerf" crowd) wrong and what I wrote in my first post in this thread right, here is the quotation for your convenience:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

The truth is that the only thind that the anti-HA crowd has achieved is this:

1. the strongest HA build nerfed to 80k+
2. but to compensate for that DPS loss, one can just buy Necrom, slap an Oakensoul ring on an Arcanist, start beaming and have a direct replacement for the lighting HA sorcerer (but easier to play)

Congrats

How are you already back to accusing the other poster of lying not even 10 minutes after doing so got the thread locked?

[Snip]

How am I accusing the other poster of lying [Snip]? How about you comment on the numbers instead? I.e. the things this whole thread is about?

[Edited quote/removed content]

CameraBeardThePirate · June 2023

loveeso wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Here's an 87.6k parse I just did with nobles and serg.

Even if your screenshot were legit, it would be -13% DPS on a trial dummy compared to the highest achievable DPS on an HA build pre-patch which means that you would just prove yoursefl (and the rest of "it's just 1-3% nerf" crowd) wrong and what I wrote in my first post in this thread right, here is the quotation for your convenience:

"As a result, there is a 15-20% decrease in DPS on average. Even on a trial dummy, the DPS loss is around 10-15%."

The truth is that the only thind that the anti-HA crowd has achieved is this:

1. the strongest HA build nerfed to 80k+
2. but to compensate for that DPS loss, one can just buy Necrom, slap an Oakensoul ring on an Arcanist, start beaming and have a direct replacement for the lighting HA sorcerer (but easier to play)

Congrats

How are you already back to accusing the other poster of lying not even 10 minutes after doing so got the thread locked?

[Snip]

How am I accusing the other poster of lying [Snip]? How about you comment on the numbers instead? I.e. the things this whole thread is about?

You said "Even if your screenshot were legit", implying that they photoshopped their parse.

[Edited quote]