Dragonknight ruined PvP #feedback

Adernath · May 2023

GetAgrippa wrote: »

I love my dk and it's my favorite pvp class along with warden. Having said that, Zos needs to nerf Corrosive. It's needed this ever since the hybrid changes. Why they refuse, I've no idea. It's absurd.

As I've said already in another thread, they likely play pvp on a causal basis, with DK their favorite toon. They can't kill anything otherwise.

Galeriano · May 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

No one class should be able to have 40K+ health, max resistances, the best burst heal in the game, AND be able to burst you down in 2 seconds. DKs don't have to give to take. They literally get the best of offense, defense, and healing. Meanwhile MagSorcs either have to be glass cannons to deal damage, or else build into shield stacking/defense and then hit like a wet noodle.

40K+ health and the best burst heal in the game? Is this thread still about DK or we switched topic to warden?

TechMaybeHic · May 2023

pedrogonzalez wrote: »

And again my suggestion to fix dk:
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, but you also get 20% incoming damage more
Magma armor (or what that useless morph named): all incoming damage reduced to 3% of you health, but while active you deal 20% damage less.
Fossilize: now only applies roots
Shattering rocks: as it is.
With changes like this we just have a strong balanced class

This all is over the top and would go too far. Especially the fossilized suggestion.

I think Fossilize is fine. Yes it's strong and should be, but if you've ever used it, you will find it's not as readily available and you're kind of counting ion a little lag or someone that doesn't know to break free and dodge roll as a defense for most things anyway.

Corrosive; I'd like the offense and defense at least separate but not with an added downside. But the offensive capability might still be too much as you watch these DK bombers far worse than the poor Necro bombers ZOS just couldn't allow to exist. It's completely uneven and nonsensical

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

SkynzRnR wrote: »

Heresyall wrote: »

Dragonknight is totally overpowered and is too easy to play for what it can achieve in PvP (compared to magsorc for exemple)

Magsorcs are strong, but not stupidly overpowered like DK, hance why 60% of all players in PvP is DK and other 40% is divided between other classes in game, no real diversity, it's sad. PvP in ESO is dead for me, I'll keep playing PvP in GW2 it's a night and day difference, developers actually put some effort in balancing classes for PvP in GW2 unlike in ESO where developers just take the money and sit all day doing nothing about balance in game for the PvP, they just make new bugs each update.

Stamsorcs are strong (mostly due to procs though and not really because of the class kit), magsorc not so much (not super weak, but definitely not strong either). The only reason magsorc looks strong is because outside of HA sorcs abusing tri-focus in IC, the only magsorcs you see around (and I mean actual magsorcs, not the stamsorc-hybrids that are 90% stamina and run curse or frags + streak to claim they're "magsorcs") are the top tier magsorc mains who would completely dominate PvP if they were to play a better class.

Afterip · May 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

[

I think Fossilize is fine. Yes it's strong and should be, but if you've ever used it, you will find it's not as readily available and you're kind of counting ion a little lag or someone that doesn't know to break free and dodge roll as a defense for most things anyway.

No, its not.
Fossilize has: ignore block, stun, root. Its too much for one skill and for balance then need to remove one of them.

KiltMaster · May 2023

Yeah DK is the golden child of ESO. OP in PVP. Damn near unkillable. Look at any tower *** next time you encounter one and you will see it is more than likely a DK (or even a DK running with a Warden friend in that case - just run off. Not worth dealing with em)

Hoping for DK nerf soon or at least bring other classes to that level. DK shouldn't be the 'end all be all' class. It's crazy.

Syiccal · May 2023

Afterip wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

[

I think Fossilize is fine. Yes it's strong and should be, but if you've ever used it, you will find it's not as readily available and you're kind of counting ion a little lag or someone that doesn't know to break free and dodge roll as a defense for most things anyway.

No, its not.
Fossilize has: ignore block, stun, root. Its too much for one skill and for balance then need to remove one of them.

Don't forget dmg, low or not its still dmg, oh and procs minor brutality..

Afterip · May 2023

Syiccal wrote: »

Don't forget dmg, low or not its still dmg, oh and procs minor brutality..

And recover 1.1k stam. So one skill get 5 bennefits: unblockable, stun, root, minor brut and recover 1.1k stam. Seems balanced lol.

Galeriano · May 2023

Afterip wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

Don't forget dmg, low or not its still dmg, oh and procs minor brutality..

And recover 1.1k stam. So one skill get 5 bennefits: unblockable, stun, root, minor brut and recover 1.1k stam. Seems balanced lol.

Why is unblockable and stun mentioned separately? Makes no sense.

And if You start adding connections to passives than it's pretty easy to find abilities that have 5+ effects on other classes.

Quick example refreshing path on nightblade. It gives minor endurance, minor intellect, major expedition, AoE HoT, Major resolve from passives and max HP from passives. That is already 6 effects and we can even add 7th considering that this ability allows to easily proc concealed weapon 10% dmg buff. Holy smokes 6 or 7 effects on one ability we should remove it from the game./s

Afterip · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Why is unblockable and stun mentioned separately? Makes no sense.

And if You start adding connections to passives than it's pretty easy to find abilities that have 5+ effects on other classes.

Quick example refreshing path on nightblade. It gives minor endurance, minor intellect, major expedition, AoE HoT, Major resolve from passives and max HP from passives. That is already 6 effects and we can even add 7th considering that this ability allows to easily proc concealed weapon 10% dmg buff. Holy smokes 6 or 7 effects on one ability we should remove it from the game./s

Unblockable because it hit through block and then stun you if you trying to block DK's burst.
And problem is not the number of effects, but what these effects are: breaking through the block, stunning then immobilizing.Sometimes this is enouth to kill enemy player...
You are good with math but bad with logics.

SkynzRnR · May 2023

I would like for devs if they ever so happen to read this, to look at DK's abilities and then all the other classes, I'll bet DK is going to stick out like a sore thumb from the rest.

Quackery · May 2023

What pisses me off most with the DK's is the double-cc. You get cc'd the first time and getting pummeled --> break free and you get instantly cc'd again and pummeled even more --> break free --> stamina depleted. Good luck getting away. IT'S A CHEAT CLASS!!!

That's why I just leave when I see a DK, absolutely pointless fight since I can't kill them.

Galeriano · May 2023

Afterip wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Why is unblockable and stun mentioned separately? Makes no sense.

And if You start adding connections to passives than it's pretty easy to find abilities that have 5+ effects on other classes.

Quick example refreshing path on nightblade. It gives minor endurance, minor intellect, major expedition, AoE HoT, Major resolve from passives and max HP from passives. That is already 6 effects and we can even add 7th considering that this ability allows to easily proc concealed weapon 10% dmg buff. Holy smokes 6 or 7 effects on one ability we should remove it from the game./s

Unblockable because it hit through block and then stun you if you trying to block DK's burst.
And problem is not the number of effects, but what these effects are: breaking through the block, stunning then immobilizing.Sometimes this is enouth to kill enemy player...
You are good with math but bad with logics.

But what hits You through block? What component of the ability? it's unblockable stun. Everything else will fire only if stun was succesfully applied.

These strong effects are balanced by the fact it's a single target, meele , expensive ability that can be used only on a target that is not CC immune. There are abilities with unblockable stuns that have secondary effects that can be applied even when stun itself cannot.

As for fossilize it's not even that strong on its own. People make it to look like stun+immobilize is some form of god mode when in reality big chunk if not majority of experienced DKs is using the other morph that provides heal because it's usually a better choice. Having immobilize tied to a stun is not as great as it sounds.

Galeriano · May 2023

Quackery wrote: »

What pisses me off most with the DK's is the double-cc. You get cc'd the first time and getting pummeled --> break free and you get instantly cc'd again and pummeled even more --> break free --> stamina depleted. Good luck getting away. IT'S A CHEAT CLASS!!!

That's why I just leave when I see a DK, absolutely pointless fight since I can't kill them.

There is no such a thing as double CC that would require double break free. DK like every other class can stun You once every 7 seconds at best.

Syiccal · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

What pisses me off most with the DK's is the double-cc. You get cc'd the first time and getting pummeled --> break free and you get instantly cc'd again and pummeled even more --> break free --> stamina depleted. Good luck getting away. IT'S A CHEAT CLASS!!!

That's why I just leave when I see a DK, absolutely pointless fight since I can't kill them.

There is no such a thing as double CC that would require double break free. DK like every other class can stun You once every 7 seconds at best.

Most likely talking about fosilize and then rooted

acastanza_ESO · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

What pisses me off most with the DK's is the double-cc. You get cc'd the first time and getting pummeled --> break free and you get instantly cc'd again and pummeled even more --> break free --> stamina depleted. Good luck getting away. IT'S A CHEAT CLASS!!!

That's why I just leave when I see a DK, absolutely pointless fight since I can't kill them.

There is no such a thing as double CC that would require double break free. DK like every other class can stun You once every 7 seconds at best.

Yeah, no, the issue is fossilize in particular (and in combination with the DK's other multi-CC skills), it first stuns you, so you break free, but rather than actually being CC immune, it then immobilizes you which is subtly different and doesn't respect the hard CC immunity. There are other classes that can pull this off with a two skill combo, like restraining prison and streak on sorc, but no other class than DK has a skill quite so overloaded. And then frequently DK's will follow up the unblockable, undogeable fossilize with a Leap, so there's a knockback an additional CC that doesn't respect immunity, and if your CC immunity is over because they timed it right, an additional Stun on that skill too. SO yeah, on paper, "stun" once every 7 seconds, in practice DK's can lock you down extremely well such that the "7 seconds" of "immunity" are a joke.

DK is extremely, unequivocally head-and-shoulders above any other class in the game in power level. And ZOS seems intent on keeping it that way.

Rhaegar75 · May 2023

Corrosive needs tuning down

El_Borracho wrote: »

pedrogonzalez wrote: »

And again my suggestion to fix dk:
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, but you also get 20% incoming damage more
Magma armor (or what that useless morph named): all incoming damage reduced to 3% of you health, but while active you deal 20% damage less.
Fossilize: now only applies roots
Shattering rocks: as it is.
With changes like this we just have a strong balanced class

So take away 3 of the 4 skills that make the DK what it is, while turning a great ultimate into 2 useless ultimates, and making Fossilize less effective than a light attack. How is this balance?

Exactly….they may as well delete the class

Galeriano · May 2023

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

What pisses me off most with the DK's is the double-cc. You get cc'd the first time and getting pummeled --> break free and you get instantly cc'd again and pummeled even more --> break free --> stamina depleted. Good luck getting away. IT'S A CHEAT CLASS!!!

That's why I just leave when I see a DK, absolutely pointless fight since I can't kill them.

There is no such a thing as double CC that would require double break free. DK like every other class can stun You once every 7 seconds at best.

Yeah, no, the issue is fossilize in particular (and in combination with the DK's other multi-CC skills), it first stuns you, so you break free, but rather than actually being CC immune, it then immobilizes you which is subtly different and doesn't respect the hard CC immunity. There are other classes that can pull this off with a two skill combo, like restraining prison and streak on sorc, but no other class than DK has a skill quite so overloaded. And then frequently DK's will follow up the unblockable, undogeable fossilize with a Leap, so there's a knockback an additional CC that doesn't respect immunity, and if your CC immunity is over because they timed it right, an additional Stun on that skill too. SO yeah, on paper, "stun" once every 7 seconds, in practice DK's can lock you down extremely well such that the "7 seconds" of "immunity" are a joke.

DK is extremely, unequivocally head-and-shoulders above any other class in the game in power level. And ZOS seems intent on keeping it that way.

CC immunity and immobilize+snare immunity are two different things. Having one active does not grant You the other. There is no such a thing as "hard CC immunity". Sorcs are actually pulling this more often with bombard+streak both being long range AoE abilities. If You use leap right after fossilize on the same target than knockback from leap won't apply, You can either get knockback from leap or stun from fossilize once every 7 seconds not both one after another. CC immunity prevents You from knockbacks. It's a stun once every 7 seconds in reality not just on paper.

Thing is that lot of power that DK gained during last years does not come from DK specific buffs but rather from changes done to the game itself. Hybrydisation allowed DK to combine best stamina and magicka abilities together. This in return empowered strenght of combustion passive double resource gain. Charged trait buff further increased effectiveness of that passive. Undeath passive from vampire skill line caused everyone to become stage 3 vampire giving DK basically ~10% dmg buff because now large potion of his damage including his burst abilities is hitting everyone harder. Arrival of items like sea serpent coil allowed DK to build more survivability and ulti gen while still getting decent base damage numbers. This in return allowed DK to build even more tankiness with new sets like rallying cry or mara's balm.

OBJnoob · May 2023

I think you're both right but you're both choosing your words poorly.

There IS such a thing as hard CC immunity.

And honestly since CC just means Crowd Control it can accurately be used for hard or soft. It DOES help understanding to be specific though.

El_Borracho · May 2023

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

What pisses me off most with the DK's is the double-cc. You get cc'd the first time and getting pummeled --> break free and you get instantly cc'd again and pummeled even more --> break free --> stamina depleted. Good luck getting away. IT'S A CHEAT CLASS!!!

That's why I just leave when I see a DK, absolutely pointless fight since I can't kill them.

There is no such a thing as double CC that would require double break free. DK like every other class can stun You once every 7 seconds at best.

Yeah, no, the issue is fossilize in particular (and in combination with the DK's other multi-CC skills), it first stuns you, so you break free, but rather than actually being CC immune, it then immobilizes you which is subtly different and doesn't respect the hard CC immunity. There are other classes that can pull this off with a two skill combo, like restraining prison and streak on sorc, but no other class than DK has a skill quite so overloaded. And then frequently DK's will follow up the unblockable, undogeable fossilize with a Leap, so there's a knockback an additional CC that doesn't respect immunity, and if your CC immunity is over because they timed it right, an additional Stun on that skill too. SO yeah, on paper, "stun" once every 7 seconds, in practice DK's can lock you down extremely well such that the "7 seconds" of "immunity" are a joke.

DK is extremely, unequivocally head-and-shoulders above any other class in the game in power level. And ZOS seems intent on keeping it that way.

So a DK has to (1) fill their ultimate, then (2) wait until their target gets into melee range, then (3) wait until their target is not cc immune to hit them with Fossilize, then (4) hit them with an ultimate that will not one-shot them. Yes, we should nerf Fossilize so everyone can go back to oakensorcs spamming heavy attacks and shards, or templars spamming Jesus beam, or gankers relying on toxic barrage. That's how PVP is supposed to be.

techprince · May 2023

DK had 3 issues. Sustain, lack of burst/execute and mobility. There was no reason to give % boost to their spammable like nightblade's Grim Focus. There was no reason to give them Major Berserk on a gap closer.

Kartalin · May 2023

techprince wrote: »

There was no reason to give them Major Berserk on a gap closer.

Honestly I think I prefer blood craze with master maces to slotting major berserk chains, bar space availability is a real concern here. I guess if I used burning spell weave I might slot chains instead but I prefer the other play style.

CGPsaint · May 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Stamsorcs are strong (mostly due to procs though and not really because of the class kit), magsorc not so much (not super weak, but definitely not strong either). The only reason magsorc looks strong is because outside of HA sorcs abusing tri-focus in IC, the only magsorcs you see around (and I mean actual magsorcs, not the stamsorc-hybrids that are 90% stamina and run curse or frags + streak to claim they're "magsorcs") are the top tier magsorc mains who would completely dominate PvP if they were to play a better class.

I've resorted to using my MagSorc pretty much exclusively to provide Negates and stuns to support my group. Mages Wrath is not terrible a finishing off opponents and the Matriarch heals will do in a pinch, but rolling solo just feels like a lost cause.

pedrogonzalez · May 2023

Btw not only dk thing.
Zos should completely delete knickknacks from game.
Because they can’t fix knobacks grants desync.
So all that leap, bow knock, spear knock etc should be redesigned to ordinary stun.

Vevvev · June 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

As for fossilize it's not even that strong on its own. People make it to look like stun+immobilize is some form of god mode when in reality big chunk if not majority of experienced DKs is using the other morph that provides heal because it's usually a better choice. Having immobilize tied to a stun is not as great as it sounds.

Yeah, I went from Fossilize to Shattering Rocks for that heal. All I need is the stun because it's designed to lower your defense when the burst hits, that's it. The immobilization drains stamina from people who panic, don't know how to manage stamina, or don't have a built in way to deal with immobilizations. With how many forms of immobilization exist in ESO PvP many PvPers will be capable of handling that effect.

Shattering Rocks on the other hand pairs with with Burning Embers, and with those both combined you have some pressure taken off you so you're not using Coagulating Blood as often. Also enables builds like mine that focus on Blood for Blood as the spammable and now we really don't have to worry about the health cost and healing lock out as badly.

Mansquito · June 2023

In response to the OP question/statement, yes DKs have definitely impacted the state of PvP. The lack of build variety is startling and a lot has to do with the fact that a lot of other classes are not viable - looking at Necro and Templar really, but even Sorc to some extent. It also impacts how people play and perhaps even has a wider effect on the way the servers perform. I.e maybe more players zerg or stack because they just get absolutely incinerated by smallscale DKs, thus lowering server performance. That's a bit of a stretch but DKs have been disgusting scourges for a long time in Cyrodiil whilst other classes get gutted. Warden and NB are competitive though.

I think in general that the way the game has been developed in the last few years has been absolutely detrimental to the health of the PvP population, really poor balancing attempts just add to a litany of other problems.

SandandStars · June 2023

@Mansquito - This is a good summary.

Any theories about why the PVP direction changed for the worse?

To state the obvious: U35 really seemed to come out of left field. It was hard for most players, myself included, to understand what they were trying to achieve. Stated goals seemed contradictory with the actual changes/effects…

Weckless · June 2023

pedrogonzalez wrote: »

And again my suggestion to fix dk:
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, but you also get 20% incoming damage more
Magma armor (or what that useless morph named): all incoming damage reduced to 3% of you health, but while active you deal 20% damage less.
Fossilize: now only applies roots
Shattering rocks: as it is.
With changes like this we just have a strong balanced class

This is a lil overboard lol. I suggest disabled ult gen during corrosive, change their block mitigation to block cost reduction, and reduce coags scaling effect to 25%

OBJnoob · June 2023

Weckless wrote: »

pedrogonzalez wrote: »

And again my suggestion to fix dk:
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, but you also get 20% incoming damage more
Magma armor (or what that useless morph named): all incoming damage reduced to 3% of you health, but while active you deal 20% damage less.
Fossilize: now only applies roots
Shattering rocks: as it is.
With changes like this we just have a strong balanced class

This is a lil overboard lol. I suggest disabled ult gen during corrosive, change their block mitigation to block cost reduction, and reduce coags scaling effect to 25%

I like this suggestion overall, but think the block mitigation is better the way it is. As many other forms of mitigation there are... I'm not sure the 10% extra to blocking is that big of a deal. I think 10% cost reduction would actually be more powerful for them.

SandandStars · June 2023

Replace Whip with Jabs

Replace Fossilize with Frozen Gate

Replace Corrosive with Consuming Darkness

That’s a start..,