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Dragonknight ruined PvP #feedback
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Weckless✭✭✭pedrogonzalez wrote: »And again my suggestion to fix dk:
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, but you also get 20% incoming damage more
Magma armor (or what that useless morph named): all incoming damage reduced to 3% of you health, but while active you deal 20% damage less.
Fossilize: now only applies roots
Shattering rocks: as it is.
With changes like this we just have a strong balanced class
This is a lil overboard lol. I suggest disabled ult gen during corrosive, change their block mitigation to block cost reduction, and reduce coags scaling effect to 25%
I like this suggestion overall, but think the block mitigation is better the way it is. As many other forms of mitigation there are... I'm not sure the 10% extra to blocking is that big of a deal. I think 10% cost reduction would actually be more powerful for them.
Then make it conditional like templars lol. 10% block mitigation when above 50% health lol2 -
Weckless✭✭✭
Why is unblockable and stun mentioned separately? Makes no sense.
And if You start adding connections to passives than it's pretty easy to find abilities that have 5+ effects on other classes.
Quick example refreshing path on nightblade. It gives minor endurance, minor intellect, major expedition, AoE HoT, Major resolve from passives and max HP from passives. That is already 6 effects and we can even add 7th considering that this ability allows to easily proc concealed weapon 10% dmg buff. Holy smokes 6 or 7 effects on one ability we should remove it from the game./s
Effects and passive bonuses for slotting something is not the same thing. The the damage bonus is attributed to Concealed, not path. So you get 2 recovery buffs, a speed buff, and a heal for 700 a tic. Im not mentioning major resolve because you proc it with your spammable so path isn't necessary to get that0 -
mmtaniac✭✭✭✭Templar strong point right now is only healing and self healing, damage is possible but only from outside. It means you are forced to proc set or you have 0 damage , on dk still you can does tons of easy damage thanks to dots everywhere. Ok we have good execute but this is nothing compared to damage on everything. Still would prefer to have good damage on every skill and less strong execute ability.0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
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Why is unblockable and stun mentioned separately? Makes no sense.
And if You start adding connections to passives than it's pretty easy to find abilities that have 5+ effects on other classes.
Quick example refreshing path on nightblade. It gives minor endurance, minor intellect, major expedition, AoE HoT, Major resolve from passives and max HP from passives. That is already 6 effects and we can even add 7th considering that this ability allows to easily proc concealed weapon 10% dmg buff. Holy smokes 6 or 7 effects on one ability we should remove it from the game./s
Effects and passive bonuses for slotting something is not the same thing. The the damage bonus is attributed to Concealed, not path. So you get 2 recovery buffs, a speed buff, and a heal for 700 a tic. Im not mentioning major resolve because you proc it with your spammable so path isn't necessary to get that
You do realize You proved my point?0 -
Weckless✭✭✭
I wasn't trying to prove or disprove any point. I was just correcting the part about path giving you 7 different bonuses
Why is unblockable and stun mentioned separately? Makes no sense.
And if You start adding connections to passives than it's pretty easy to find abilities that have 5+ effects on other classes.
Quick example refreshing path on nightblade. It gives minor endurance, minor intellect, major expedition, AoE HoT, Major resolve from passives and max HP from passives. That is already 6 effects and we can even add 7th considering that this ability allows to easily proc concealed weapon 10% dmg buff. Holy smokes 6 or 7 effects on one ability we should remove it from the game./s
Effects and passive bonuses for slotting something is not the same thing. The the damage bonus is attributed to Concealed, not path. So you get 2 recovery buffs, a speed buff, and a heal for 700 a tic. Im not mentioning major resolve because you proc it with your spammable so path isn't necessary to get that
You do realize You proved my point?
Honestly Path is only on most NBs bar due to it being the only convenient option to meet a certain requirement for concealeds damage buff. The skill on its own is actually not very good and if not for it proccing concealed it probably wouldn't be run nearly as much. With the change to how concealed procs ill be experimenting with RAT or possibly channeled acceleration since i get snare immunity from blurEdited by Weckless on June 22, 2023 1:08AM0 -
Ash Cloud and Corrosive are the "problem" skills for DK. The amount Ash Cloud is passively healing through Battle Spirit is too high, while Corrosive has always been a problem. Corrosives animation is basically non visible against any class with AoE animations, and the sound can be hidden so you don't realize they popped it until after half your health bard disappear.
Then there are the desyncs with the class. Petrify, Chains, and Leap are all some of if not the most consistently desynced skills in the game sense release.1 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The point of Corrosive is not that it makes you unkillable. The point is that it gives you 97% more time to get your kill on targets and an18-50% damage boost while doing so based on how much armor your target had. It is an offensive tool, not a defensive one.
The fact that you can generate ultimate while Corrosive is up is insane.
DK is tanky enough without corrosive.1 -
Iriidius✭✭✭techprince wrote: »DK had 3 issues. Sustain, lack of burst/execute and mobility. There was no reason to give % boost to their spammable like nightblade's Grim Focus. There was no reason to give them Major Berserk on a gap closer.
DKs already received molten whip stacks in update 22 2.5 years and 10 updates before dk got meta in update 32 and dk was still one of the worst class in this 10 updates althought molten whip was 100% extra dmg back then and engulfing flames and burning embers lastet only 14 seconds and were recasted more often generating more stacks.
In update 35 they reduced dmg per stack from 33% to 20%(resulting in only 60% more dmg on 3 stacked whip) and spread engulfing flames and burning embers over 24 seconds so you rarely cast them and burning embers often isnt slottet anymore so players spam 3*FoO to get full stacks. Sorcerers crystal fragments get 66% extra dmg, half cast and no cast time on a cast time spammable and can be build up with any ability while still having curse as delayed dmg tool that does higher dmg than inhale or flames of oblivion.
Maybe dk had bad burst but they also had good pressure. Dot pressure got reduced by spreading out dot dmg over 24 seconds and mara cleansing. To get good burst you have to give up burning embers for deep breath and another set(defensive or pressure dmg?) for mechanical acuity and reduce pressure even more. Having to slot mechanical acuity(like templar) to burst someone down is not really a sign of a strong burst class.
12k molten whip isnt that much compared to 28k assassins will or 15k frags especially when it is 12k crit with high crit dmg and full penetration and user had to use acuity and corrosive and precast 3 skills to get it that hight and cant always do it.
And chains is still not worth slotting even with major berserk and not wort casting, casting it every 4 seconds when pressuring is a dmg loss and there is not much time to cast it before a deep breath+engulfing flames+fossilize+molten whip combo except you remove one of the other skills.
I have bar space neither for master dwblood craze nor for major berserk chains not even for burning embers, cinder storm or talons. My bar is full with engulfing flame, deep breath, flame lash, flames of oblivion, fossilize and leap frontbar and coagulating blood, resolving vigor, hardened armor, Race against time, brutality entropy and corrosive armor backbar.
Honestly I think I prefer blood craze with master maces to slotting major berserk chains, bar space availability is a real concern here. I guess if I used burning spell weave I might slot chains instead but I prefer the other play style.techprince wrote: »There was no reason to give them Major Berserk on a gap closer.pedrogonzalez wrote: »And again my suggestion to fix dk:
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, but you also get 20% incoming damage more
Magma armor (or what that useless morph named): all incoming damage reduced to 3% of you health, but while active you deal 20% damage less.
Fossilize: now only applies roots
Shattering rocks: as it is.
With changes like this we just have a strong balanced class
This is a lil overboard lol. I suggest disabled ult gen during corrosive, change their block mitigation to block cost reduction, and reduce coags scaling effect to 25%
Coagulating blood tooltip is already in line with other burst heals and equals healthy offering and other burst heals at 60% hp, it only gets boostet a bit by dk healing passive and daedrick trickery. If you reduce the scaling you would have to get below 20% hp to get slightly higher value than other burst heals and then you are practically dead. Before update 35 it was only 33% scaling but the burst heal cost was also in line with healthy offering but when they increased scaling to 50% they also increased cost by 15%.
For me it sounds like Stamden too, running 40k health is normal on stamden but on dk it is stupid because it increases your dmg received in corrosive as dk, polar wind should be stronger than coagulating blood especially when stacking hp and bursting you down in 2 seconds is common on warden and especially nb but on dk it is only possible with special builds like acuity dk.No one class should be able to have 40K+ health, max resistances, the best burst heal in the game, AND be able to burst you down in 2 seconds. DKs don't have to give to take. They literally get the best of offense, defense, and healing. Meanwhile MagSorcs either have to be glass cannons to deal damage, or else build into shield stacking/defense and then hit like a wet noodle.
40K+ health and the best burst heal in the game? Is this thread still about DK or we switched topic to warden?
Templars block passive is not really conditional because when they block they cant move full speed and will stand in their aoe healing anyway. Block mitigation is also only half of templars passive(they get minor vitality too) but full dk passive and dk is a tank class while templar isnt. Making the block only above 50% would make it worse than half of templar passive and hurt reactive blocking more than permablocking.pedrogonzalez wrote: »And again my suggestion to fix dk:
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, but you also get 20% incoming damage more
Magma armor (or what that useless morph named): all incoming damage reduced to 3% of you health, but while active you deal 20% damage less.
Fossilize: now only applies roots
Shattering rocks: as it is.
With changes like this we just have a strong balanced class
This is a lil overboard lol. I suggest disabled ult gen during corrosive, change their block mitigation to block cost reduction, and reduce coags scaling effect to 25%
I like this suggestion overall, but think the block mitigation is better the way it is. As many other forms of mitigation there are... I'm not sure the 10% extra to blocking is that big of a deal. I think 10% cost reduction would actually be more powerful for them.
Then make it conditional like templars lol. 10% block mitigation when above 50% health lolEdited by Iriidius on June 22, 2023 2:45PM0 -
Weckless✭✭✭techprince wrote: »DK had 3 issues. Sustain, lack of burst/execute and mobility. There was no reason to give % boost to their spammable like nightblade's Grim Focus. There was no reason to give them Major Berserk on a gap closer.
DKs already received molten whip stacks in update 22 2.5 years and 10 updates before dk got meta in update 32 and dk was still one of the worst class in this 10 updates althought molten whip was 100% extra dmg back then and engulfing flames and burning embers lastet only 14 seconds and were recasted more often generating more stacks.
In update 35 they reduced dmg per stack from 33% to 20%(resulting in only 60% more dmg on 3 stacked whip) and spread engulfing flames and burning embers over 24 seconds so you rarely cast them and burning embers often isnt slottet anymore so players spam 3*FoO to get full stacks. Sorcerers crystal fragments get 66% extra dmg, half cast and no cast time on a cast time spammable and can be build up with any ability while still having curse as delayed dmg tool that does higher dmg than inhale or flames of oblivion.
Maybe dk had bad burst but they also had good pressure. Dot pressure got reduced by spreading out dot dmg over 24 seconds and mara cleansing. To get good burst you have to give up burning embers for deep breath and another set(defensive or pressure dmg?) for mechanical acuity and reduce pressure even more. Having to slot mechanical acuity(like templar) to burst someone down is not really a sign of a strong burst class.
12k molten whip isnt that much compared to 28k assassins will or 15k frags especially when it is 12k crit with high crit dmg and full penetration and user had to use acuity and corrosive and precast 3 skills to get it that hight and cant always do it.
And chains is still not worth slotting even with major berserk and not wort casting, casting it every 4 seconds when pressuring is a dmg loss and there is not much time to cast it before a deep breath+engulfing flames+fossilize+molten whip combo except you remove one of the other skills.
I have bar space neither for master dwblood craze nor for major berserk chains not even for burning embers, cinder storm or talons. My bar is full with engulfing flame, deep breath, flame lash, flames of oblivion, fossilize and leap frontbar and coagulating blood, resolving vigor, hardened armor, Race against time, brutality entropy and corrosive armor backbar.
Honestly I think I prefer blood craze with master maces to slotting major berserk chains, bar space availability is a real concern here. I guess if I used burning spell weave I might slot chains instead but I prefer the other play style.techprince wrote: »There was no reason to give them Major Berserk on a gap closer.pedrogonzalez wrote: »And again my suggestion to fix dk:
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, but you also get 20% incoming damage more
Magma armor (or what that useless morph named): all incoming damage reduced to 3% of you health, but while active you deal 20% damage less.
Fossilize: now only applies roots
Shattering rocks: as it is.
With changes like this we just have a strong balanced class
This is a lil overboard lol. I suggest disabled ult gen during corrosive, change their block mitigation to block cost reduction, and reduce coags scaling effect to 25%
Coagulating blood tooltip is already in line with other burst heals and equals healthy offering and other burst heals at 60% hp, it only gets boostet a bit by dk healing passive and daedrick trickery. If you reduce the scaling you would have to get below 20% hp to get slightly higher value than other burst heals and then you are practically dead. Before update 35 it was only 33% scaling but the burst heal cost was also in line with healthy offering but when they increased scaling to 50% they also increased cost by 15%.
For me it sounds like Stamden too, running 40k health is normal on stamden but on dk it is stupid because it increases your dmg received in corrosive as dk, polar wind should be stronger than coagulating blood especially when stacking hp and bursting you down in 2 seconds is common on warden and especially nb but on dk it is only possible with special builds like acuity dk.No one class should be able to have 40K+ health, max resistances, the best burst heal in the game, AND be able to burst you down in 2 seconds. DKs don't have to give to take. They literally get the best of offense, defense, and healing. Meanwhile MagSorcs either have to be glass cannons to deal damage, or else build into shield stacking/defense and then hit like a wet noodle.
40K+ health and the best burst heal in the game? Is this thread still about DK or we switched topic to warden?
Templars block passive is not really conditional because when they block they cant move full speed and will stand in their aoe healing anyway. Block mitigation is also only half of templars passive(they get minor vitality too) but full dk passive and dk is a tank class while templar isnt. Making the block only above 50% would make it worse than half of templar passive and hurt reactive blocking more than permablocking.pedrogonzalez wrote: »And again my suggestion to fix dk:
Corrosive armor: gives you full pen, but you also get 20% incoming damage more
Magma armor (or what that useless morph named): all incoming damage reduced to 3% of you health, but while active you deal 20% damage less.
Fossilize: now only applies roots
Shattering rocks: as it is.
With changes like this we just have a strong balanced class
This is a lil overboard lol. I suggest disabled ult gen during corrosive, change their block mitigation to block cost reduction, and reduce coags scaling effect to 25%
I like this suggestion overall, but think the block mitigation is better the way it is. As many other forms of mitigation there are... I'm not sure the 10% extra to blocking is that big of a deal. I think 10% cost reduction would actually be more powerful for them.
Then make it conditional like templars lol. 10% block mitigation when above 50% health lol
This is a lie. Coag heals more than all other burst heals what are you talking about. Ive seen screen shots of 25k coag crits in pvp. Healthy offering crits for like 14-16k on a build with good stats for healing. Sitting here acting like DK isn't strong is hilarious. Lay off that copium for realEdited by Weckless on June 22, 2023 4:03PM3 -
JerBearESO✭✭✭✭Not sure if anyone noted this, but DK actually does have a double CC. It's fossilize into leap. The leap skill is programmed kinda wonky so that the target is not allowed certain actions while the DK is on route. Though this is perhaps just it's buggy nature and not an actual CC, it can render the target helpless all the same.
Leap didn't originally work this way, but could potentially be avoided if say a sorc streaked away in time, so they made some code changes. I think they should revisit this ult with the intend of removing this behavior.
Also...Corrosive OP0 -
TechMaybeHic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ive been thinking about it and DK is strong; yes, that's the obvious answer. But it didn't ruin PvP. Position desync, break free delay, poor visuals, bad performance; and then hybridization that favors the class that restores both resource pools and health is more what ruined PvP. Most have been issues long before DK was even top 3 in classes0 -
JerBearESO✭✭✭✭TechMaybeHic wrote: »Ive been thinking about it and DK is strong; yes, that's the obvious answer. But it didn't ruin PvP. Position desync, break free delay, poor visuals, bad performance; and then hybridization that favors the class that restores both resource pools and health is more what ruined PvP. Most have been issues long before DK was even top 3 in classes
I would say failure to address the issues that arose with said changes is what has ruined pvp, and dk simply happens to be the strongest class during this downfall and therefore gets the most attention/blame from the player base.
I don't necessarily think the changes they made were bad either, just weren't followed up on as well as they should have been for pvp. I have been loving hybridization for creative build diversity, but the fact that battle spirit still says -55% healing and -50% damage after greatly increasing the availability of damage and healing is just uncalled for, seeing as how easy the appropriate change is.
I have said it twice before and will say it again:
-80% damage
-90% healing
That would have a profound effect on pvp by redirecting things towards the inclusion of a stable damage race element.
Right now, if you JUST cut healing, the meta becomes an abnoxious burst meta, and thus we need the damage change. But notice how we end up with half the healing that we currently have compared to damage output. That coupled with reduced damage to prevent instant burst would result in what this game has always been missing: a guarantee that you will die eventually, and also your opponent. In team fights, this means your efforts even when you fall have meaning as pressure against the enemy team, whereas currently they would regain their health too fast for it to matter.
Anyway. I digress. DK does need nerfs :P0 -
Xarc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭how many treads does ZOS need to figure out that DK really needs to be nerfed?
Edited by Xarc on June 22, 2023 9:22PM@xarcs FR-EU-PC -"La mort, c'est surfait.", Xarc
Xãrc -- breton necro - DC - AvA rank50
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- since april.20141 -
SandandStars✭✭✭✭✭It is possible that DK is intended to be an easier class for new/casual players to be competitive on.
I made a post awhile back asking for input from the dev team conveying their perspective on:
1) Do they feel DK is more powerful than other classes
2) If yes, do they feel this is a problem
I added that many players assume that closely balanced classes are the desired goal the dev team strives for, but this may not be the case, and that hearing their perspective/vision on class balance would be extremely helpful.
I think it was a couple months ago, but I’ve received no response from Kevin or Gina or a dev team member.
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Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sorcerers crystal fragments get 66% extra dmg, half cast and no cast time on a cast time spammable and can be build up with any ability while still having curse as delayed dmg tool that does higher dmg than inhale or flames of oblivion.
Are you seriously trying to compare frags to whip and curse to FoO?
Frags V WhipFrags:
- Pure RNG to get its proc making it very unreliable
- bright visual queue
- slow travel time when used at range
- No added buffs to raw damage/healing while it's proc'd
- proc lasts 5-7 seconds before it vanishes
- cast time when not proc'd (which can be interrupted that locks the skill for 3 seconds)
- No synergistic passives
- No access to other abilities such as corrosive or leap that either ensure it's damage lands or it deals its full damage (streak is not leap, that leap desync bug is broken and being abused like crazy right now)
- Has range (easy to dodge, but it has it)
Whip:
- Has inevitability (it will always have that higher damage with those stacks)
- bugged to be completely invisible to enemies
- no travel time
- the stacks provide additional raw damage (like spec bow) for increased damage and healing while they are active
- stacks last 15 seconds
- no cast time meaning it can be used as a regular spammable with no downside
- entire kit including passives synergizes with whip
- access to corrosive and leap that guarantees it deals its full damage or lands its hit respectively.
- long melee range (which other melee has only been caught up this patch)
Curse V FoO/breathCurse:
- it's cleansable
- requires target to cast it (no prebuffing)
- provides 0 additional buffs/debuffs, even when activated
- the burst of this ability is single target with a minor AoE that deals negligible damage.
- lack of synergistic passives that buff it
- requires pre-casting on a NB before they go invis to bring them out of invis
- longest delayed burst in the game at a total time of 12 seconds for the second hit (and wardens think their 9 seconds is bad)
FoO:
- cannot be cleansed
- doesn't require a target to use it (can be pre-buffed)
- provides major prophecy passively while slotted (sorcs have been screaming for access to this basic buff for years now and still don't have it, even on an active ability despite their class HoT requiring them to have a good crit rate to proc it)
- deals its full damage to all targets it aims at in its AoE
- has synergistic kit to buff its damage
- brings NB out of invis even if they are already invis
Breath:
- cannot be cleansed
- interrupts enemies in its initial AoE
- Heals the caster (often a full heal)
- completely AoE
- has synergistic kit to help it
- brings NB out of invis even if they are already invis
That's just those 2 comparisons, it doesn't even take into account DKs natural tankiness and healing capabilities that are the strongest in the game currently as well as sustain from battle roar that makes dark deal look weak by comparison.Templars block passive is not really conditional because when they block they cant move full speed and will stand in their aoe healing anyway. Block mitigation is also only half of templars passive(they get minor vitality too) but full dk passive and dk is a tank class while templar isnt. Making the block only above 50% would make it worse than half of templar passive and hurt reactive blocking more than permablocking.
You know what templar lacks to make up for their strong defensive capabilities? Reliable burst damage, something that DK has plenty of on top of their superior healing and defensive capabilites.
Your attempts at defending DK would have been more passable if your arguments didn't try to compare DK to 2 of the 3 bottom classes (from a PvP perspective) in the game right now. What's next, DK is weak because it doesn't have blast bones, colossus, goliath form or a unique +10% DoT damage passive like necro? Might as well go for the full trifecta of the bottom 3 classes to defend your overtuned class, you're 2/3 of the way there already.3 -
Weckless✭✭✭And btw if a whip is dodged there's no reason it should keep its stacks. That's just bad design1
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jhall03✭✭✭I agree with the general idea of this thread. DKs have been OP for too long. I’m not going to try to determine the root cause or best fix action (nerf DK vs. buff other classes), The fact is the are overly oppressive while at the same time having nearly endless sustain and survivability. And ZOS have let it go too long and now have a difficult problem that needs to be addressed with how this class outperforms so effortlessly.2