Werewolf weapon passives have a big problem

Panderbander · May 2023

Soooo you know all those weapon passives that don't work for werewolves? Turns out, they kinda do, but only if you follow a very specific sequence of actions.

Shout out to @Aka_ for finding this:

Make sure you have NO weapon passives learned.
Go into werewolf form with the proper weapon(s) equipped.
Learn the passives.

Boom, those passives now work while you're transformed for as long as you're transformed.

But that's it. Lose form and you lose access to them.

It feels to me like this whole time ZOS has been under the impression that we've been benefitting from these passives--that they're INTENDED TO WORK--and thus has been balancing werewolf with the understanding that these weapon passives were functioning when they were not (at least without some cheesy learning the skill while transformed thing).

@ZOS_Kevin or @ZOS_GinaBruno can we PLEASE get this forwarded on to the dev team? The fact that this has remained in the game for years now (yes, I've seen this pop up in the past but didn't realize what was happening) tells me that the team has no idea it's been happening.

By the way, here's the thing in action: https://youtu.be/zFFv3Z7cjIE

I only went over a few of the passives in the video, and not all passives function, but it shows that this is in fact how things are on live.

Aka_ · May 2023

Definitely one of the more unexpected finds I've had testing things. Great summary and turnaround on the video, Pander. With how things have been for Werewolves, and how far they have fallen behind in pretty much every major category relevant to the PvP playstyle, I am genuinely curious if - as you intelligently put out there - ZoS has been unaware that the weapon passives don't work and continue to balance them without knowing they don't work. It could open up a lot of avenues to see werewolves be in a better place.

I would love to see some insight from the dev/combat team on this. The werewolf is a part of the game that continues to fall to the wayside, but Hircine's gift deserves to at least be on par with what other classes are getting buffed with.

ZOS_Phoenix · May 2023

Greetings,

After review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic (Bug Reports, as OP proposes that this is a bug).

Thank you for your understanding.

Erickson9610 · May 2023

This needs to be looked into. What other Ultimate in the game removes your weapon passives from you? You can transform into a Blood Scion or a Bone Colossus without losing your weapon passives, so why should turning into a werewolf cause you to lose access to them? Not to mention that giving us our weapon passives back would bring more diversity to werewolf-oriented builds in general.

Skoomah · May 2023

I don’t follow… so you only lose access to your passives if actively try to cheat and bug out the game? This is the first I’ve heard of werewolves adding points to passives while transformed because naturally you have your points allocated before transforming at all. Werewolves are not supposed to have access to weapon passives, that’s been a rule since the beginning. There shouldn’t be videos out there teaching people how to hack werewolves. We get nerfed and messed around with constantly. There are better ways to report this kind of thing.

Erickson9610 · May 2023

Skoomah wrote: »

I don’t follow… so you only lose access to your passives if actively try to cheat and bug out the game? This is the first I’ve heard of werewolves adding points to passives while transformed because naturally you have your points allocated before transforming at all. Werewolves are not supposed to have access to weapon passives, that’s been a rule since the beginning. There shouldn’t be videos out there teaching people how to hack werewolves. We get nerfed and messed around with constantly. There are better ways to report this kind of thing.

Werewolves should have weapon passives. No other Ultimate ability in the game takes away access to your skill lines the way that Werewolf Transformation does. The skill line is fundamentally a nerf to normal play in its current state.

Besides, given the bug where you earn weapon XP for the weapon you initially had equipped upon transforming even after you switch weapon types while transformed, it is evident that there is a much bigger bug at play here.

I think that when you transform, the game saves your weapon type so that it can apply weapon passives to it, but when it switches the weapon type to "werewolf", it fails to register most of the original weapon passives unless you activate them again by learning the passives.

Panderbander · May 2023

I feel like it's fairly clear that these passives were intended to be functional but thanks to spaghetti code they quit working. There's also no indication at all that a given weapon passive wouldn't work in werewolf form. For example, if I'm dual-wielding when I go into form both of my weapon enchants function at dual-wield strength and I gain experience toward the weapon skill line. The passives say "while dual wielding" and that's exactly what I'm doing.

virtus753 · May 2023

Skoomah wrote: »

I don’t follow… so you only lose access to your passives if actively try to cheat and bug out the game? This is the first I’ve heard of werewolves adding points to passives while transformed because naturally you have your points allocated before transforming at all. Werewolves are not supposed to have access to weapon passives, that’s been a rule since the beginning. There shouldn’t be videos out there teaching people how to hack werewolves. We get nerfed and messed around with constantly. There are better ways to report this kind of thing.

I’m actually really curious to know if there are patch notes or developer comments on this, since weapon passives don’t work but armor passives do. We also get the weapon damage value and trait of the weapon (like we do the resistances and traits of armor), so something about it does apply. It’s not as if we’ve lost all our weapons and armor when we transform. It’s just the weapon skill line passives not applying. Why were those specifically exempted?

Tommy_The_Gun · May 2023

I am pretty sure that even if someone would be re-specing weapon passives skill points every time they want to use WW ulti - WW would still feel extremely underwhelming. And in PvP if you were to fight against a WW that has weapon passives and other WW that does not have them - you would not be able to tell the difference.

Skoomah · May 2023

virtus753 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

I don’t follow… so you only lose access to your passives if actively try to cheat and bug out the game? This is the first I’ve heard of werewolves adding points to passives while transformed because naturally you have your points allocated before transforming at all. Werewolves are not supposed to have access to weapon passives, that’s been a rule since the beginning. There shouldn’t be videos out there teaching people how to hack werewolves. We get nerfed and messed around with constantly. There are better ways to report this kind of thing.

I’m actually really curious to know if there are patch notes or developer comments on this, since weapon passives don’t work but armor passives do. We also get the weapon damage value and trait of the weapon (like we do the resistances and traits of armor), so something about it does apply. It’s not as if we’ve lost all our weapons and armor when we transform. It’s just the weapon skill line passives not applying. Why were those specifically exempted?

The reason why weapon passives don’t work is because when the game first came out, the werewolf transformation had way more burst damage and was used mainly as a way to grant temporary extreme amounts of killing power vs other classes, skill lines, etc. The use of the werewolf ultimate has changed over the years to the point people try to play it is a perma-wolf style and their overall killing power has gone way down but no reconsideration of how the ultimate fundamentally performs.

So the request to ZOS should be for the weapon passives to work in werewolf form and to avoid the argument that if it’s supposed to work in form right now, because it’s not. So the video and post are essentially showing people how to exploit a bug because the game is working as intended right now.

I agree that the passives should work but don’t agree that the knowledge of how the bug can be used be put out there for widespread consumption. My fear is that ZOS messes around with werewolf code and breaks it. They always break the code and take months if not years to fix stuff for werewolf.

Erickson9610 · May 2023

Skoomah wrote: »

The reason why weapon passives don’t work is because when the game first came out, the werewolf transformation had way more burst damage and was used mainly as a way to grant temporary extreme amounts of killing power vs other classes, skill lines, etc.

Was there ever an official statement about this, though? There's proof that the passives should work, but they aren't.

Take, for instance, the Hasty Retreat passive in the Bow skill line. That passive requires a Bow to be equipped, and it grants Major Expedition for 4 seconds after using Roll Dodge. This passive still works in Werewolf form, regardless of whether you follow the above steps.

Werewolf players for years have preferred bows for this reason; it's the only weapon with a passive that appears to work in werewolf form. However, this discovery that more passives also work means that we should have been getting the passives all this time.

Skullstachio · May 2023

I reckon with a tiny bit of balancing, they could bring it back for werewolves. (Or worse-case scenario, they gimp blood scion and bone colossus so you fight bare-handed with some "unique" cheap light/heavy attack gimmick like werewolf and the abilities get relegated to the transformations with more synergies than one can shake a magic stick at.)

Panderbander · May 2023

I refuse to believe this is an exploit. This is clearly evidence that the intent was there for us to be benefiting from these passives and we've likely been balanced with them in mind for years. If it is intended functionality (as shown via other comments here) it is not and can not be an exploit.

virtus753 · May 2023

Skoomah wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

I don’t follow… so you only lose access to your passives if actively try to cheat and bug out the game? This is the first I’ve heard of werewolves adding points to passives while transformed because naturally you have your points allocated before transforming at all. Werewolves are not supposed to have access to weapon passives, that’s been a rule since the beginning. There shouldn’t be videos out there teaching people how to hack werewolves. We get nerfed and messed around with constantly. There are better ways to report this kind of thing.

I’m actually really curious to know if there are patch notes or developer comments on this, since weapon passives don’t work but armor passives do. We also get the weapon damage value and trait of the weapon (like we do the resistances and traits of armor), so something about it does apply. It’s not as if we’ve lost all our weapons and armor when we transform. It’s just the weapon skill line passives not applying. Why were those specifically exempted?

The reason why weapon passives don’t work is because when the game first came out, the werewolf transformation had way more burst damage and was used mainly as a way to grant temporary extreme amounts of killing power vs other classes, skill lines, etc. The use of the werewolf ultimate has changed over the years to the point people try to play it is a perma-wolf style and their overall killing power has gone way down but no reconsideration of how the ultimate fundamentally performs.

So the request to ZOS should be for the weapon passives to work in werewolf form and to avoid the argument that if it’s supposed to work in form right now, because it’s not. So the video and post are essentially showing people how to exploit a bug because the game is working as intended right now.

I agree that the passives should work but don’t agree that the knowledge of how the bug can be used be put out there for widespread consumption. My fear is that ZOS messes around with werewolf code and breaks it. They always break the code and take months if not years to fix stuff for werewolf.

While I know ZOS likes to restrict damage they see as OP, I will have to reiterate I’d like to see an actual statement of intention from the devs before I can say I know their motives. I can certainly come up with reasons to justify the results we see in game, but that isn’t the same as hearing from the devs. I know they also don’t comment on everything, which makes it very difficult to know what the intention is and whether the outcome in game matches that - especially when they have just recently been open about the fact that many of their goals are mutually contradictory and that their implementations can badly miss the mark regardless.

I also know it isn’t just werewolf - anything they touch has the potential to become less functional and stay that way for a long time. Templars, lorebooks, controller mode (Spear still won’t cast reliably, bash + light attack is back, and the fix they tried for that actually broke controller input to the point where they had to revert the whole fix). It’s not a ww thing. It’s a game-wide thing. I definitely understand the apprehension there.

Panderbander · May 2023

virtus753 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

I don’t follow… so you only lose access to your passives if actively try to cheat and bug out the game? This is the first I’ve heard of werewolves adding points to passives while transformed because naturally you have your points allocated before transforming at all. Werewolves are not supposed to have access to weapon passives, that’s been a rule since the beginning. There shouldn’t be videos out there teaching people how to hack werewolves. We get nerfed and messed around with constantly. There are better ways to report this kind of thing.

I’m actually really curious to know if there are patch notes or developer comments on this, since weapon passives don’t work but armor passives do. We also get the weapon damage value and trait of the weapon (like we do the resistances and traits of armor), so something about it does apply. It’s not as if we’ve lost all our weapons and armor when we transform. It’s just the weapon skill line passives not applying. Why were those specifically exempted?

The reason why weapon passives don’t work is because when the game first came out, the werewolf transformation had way more burst damage and was used mainly as a way to grant temporary extreme amounts of killing power vs other classes, skill lines, etc. The use of the werewolf ultimate has changed over the years to the point people try to play it is a perma-wolf style and their overall killing power has gone way down but no reconsideration of how the ultimate fundamentally performs.

So the request to ZOS should be for the weapon passives to work in werewolf form and to avoid the argument that if it’s supposed to work in form right now, because it’s not. So the video and post are essentially showing people how to exploit a bug because the game is working as intended right now.

I agree that the passives should work but don’t agree that the knowledge of how the bug can be used be put out there for widespread consumption. My fear is that ZOS messes around with werewolf code and breaks it. They always break the code and take months if not years to fix stuff for werewolf.

I also know it isn’t just werewolf - anything they touch has the potential to become less functional and stay that way for a long time. Templars, lorebooks, controller mode (Spear still won’t cast reliably, bash + light attack is back, and the fix they tried for that actually broke controller input to the point where they had to revert the whole fix). It’s not a ww thing. It’s a game-wide thing. I definitely understand the apprehension there.

This 100%. Apathy and not acknowledging the issues is what leads to stagnation. Tbh, this bug where we're not getting the passives unless learned while in form is really easy to miss because while the passives do give a measurable benefit none of them are so strong that is a night and day difference between when it occurs and when you go back into form and lose them. This is likely why it's existed for so long without anyone mentioning, with people just assuming that werewolves weren't supposed to have the passives.

I think it's clear that nobody amongst the devs plays werewolf on a consistent basis. It's entirely possible that their in-studio methods for testing simply drops the subject into werewolf form then learns the passives so they never would have seen it without those passives on the few times it was touched.

Obviously this is conjecture; I have no clear window into how things work within ZOS. Ultimately I think @Erickson9610 may be correct in their suggestion on what's happening or is supposed to be happening.

Beyond all that, the best and fastest way to find out if something is unintended or bugged and not functioning properly is to make it known to the masses. How long did the bugged infused jewelry last before it came to light, and how quickly was it fixed when it did?

QuintusVaLari · May 2023

This is just one of MANY things that needs to be looked at for WW, especially in the context of pvp.
At this point every WW build I have is stronger in every way while not transformed.
Transforming gets me slightly more run speed maybe, at the cost of WW weaknesses (more damage from poison/fighters, no immovable skill, no stacking burst, no true Heal over time ability, no weapon passives, most class/guild passives don't work in form, abilities being crazy expensive to cast, no access to many buffs other classes gain, etc etc etc etc etc). Its a PILE of negatives and the positives you gain for WW form can easily be obtained out of form anyways thanks to Oakensoul and recent buffs to other abilities/playstyles.

Erickson9610 · May 2023

Also related to werewolves not receiving passives that rely on weapons — I think that the Warden's weapon type specific passive, Piercing Cold, should be looked at. This passive grants Wardens a 2% increase to Damage Done, which increases to 12% increased Damage Done with an ice staff equipped.

Werewolves currently benefit from the 2% increased Damage Done, but not the 12% increased Damage Done, even if they have an ice staff on their bar when they transform.

I recognize that the idea is to benefit ice-themed damage dealer builds, but you don't need to actually cast ice abilities to benefit from the damage increase. Therefore, werewolves with an ice staff equipped should benefit from the damage increase, because they follow the exact conditions for getting the passive that the human builds are.

For being the most thematically appropriate class to play as a werewolf on, Warden werewolves are ironically the least efficient due to how few of their class passives do not require class abilities to proc. Given that Warden werewolves fall significantly behind in performance compared to the other class werewolves, fixing this passive to apply in this case would help them catch up significantly.

Rogue_WolfESO · May 2023

Great post @Panderbander hopefully ZoS takes a good look at this issue. Every single class outside of ww benefits from weapon passive.

Erickson9610 · May 2023

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I think that when you transform, the game saves your weapon type so that it can apply weapon passives to it, but when it switches the weapon type to "werewolf", it fails to register most of the original weapon passives unless you activate them again by learning the passives.

After a bit more testing, I've discovered more evidence to support this idea. Here is the experiment I performed:

Have no weapon passives learned for two different weapon types
Transform with the first weapon and learn the passives for the first weapon type
Swap to the second weapon from the inventory screen while still in form, and learn the passives for the second weapon type

The result is that you will only receive passives from the first weapon (only if it is equipped), but you will not receive the passives of the second weapon even when the second weapon is equipped. Switching back to the first weapon will grant the passives for the first weapon again.

This means that whatever weapon you transform with is never updated for as long as you maintain Werewolf form, even if you switch it out — this parallels only receiving weapon XP for the first weapon type you transform with even after switching it out. The fact that you don't lose the passives for the first weapon upon switching back to it while still transformed suggests that weapon passives would function as normal in Werewolf form if they were only refreshed after the transformation. Hasty Retreat is the exception to this rule, possibly because the passive is checked using a different protocol than the rest, being procced off of Roll Dodge first, then checking for the equipped weapon second.

So, there are two bugs that must be fixed for weapon passives in Werewolf form to work correctly:

The equipped weapon type is never updated while in Werewolf form, even after swapping weapons
The check for weapon passives fails until the passives are manually updated, except in the case of proc-based passives like Hasty Retreat

Furthermore, to get Piercing Cold to work in Werewolf form, I imagine that the passive needs to check for the equipped weapon ("destruction staff: ice") rather than the type of the active weapon ("werewolf"). It's possible that the game switches your active weapon type to "werewolf" when using Werewolf Transformation, so passives like these need to check for the type of weapon currently equipped on that bar, rather than the active weapon type (which would be "werewolf" rather than "ice" in this case).