The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
U38 Sorcerer changes
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Berchelous✭✭✭✭I agree with nearly all statements here. Sorcerer is forgotten and needs some rework. ZOS should just add burst heal on non-pet skill and make non-pet sorc more viable or make pet skill need just one bar. The gap between classes become more apparent with every patch while sorcerer, templar and necros are dead and at the bottom. I’m sure this will result in less players in time and less money which is against a company’s fundamental goal.1 -
Afterip✭✭✭Right now you guys have incredible heal by using Surge, alot of dots and ~30% crit rate. You need just streak to target-put elem weak with vateshran and hit target with twin slashes, thats all. And you will be healed 3k every second by surge. With current nerf mara's set you will be such strong as dk.1 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Just for a little insight, let's compare a hybrid Sorc vs a hybrid NB using the same build with U38 changes. This is the build:
Fairly standard crit damage build with some defensive capability of Rallying Cry and Major Breach from Night Mother set, which frees up a slot for a defensive/offensive ability.
Let's look at the skills I could use, the self-buffed front bar stats of the build in No-CP, and the tooltip of the main spammable for each class. Starting with Sorc:
And then NB:
So using the same build, with all passives accounted for (including Amplitude for Sorc and Strike From the Shadows for NB), the NB has 700 more HP, 509 more weapon/spell damage, 4% more crit chance, and 1974 more pen (if we count the pen from Crystal Weapon). The tooltip for NB's spammable is also 1277 more than Sorc's spammable.
Not only that, the NB also has Major Evasion, Minor Cowardice, off-balance, free well-fitted, Minor Maim, a unique 20% damage taken debuff, most of which the Sorc either doesn't have due to bar space or not having decent abilities to provide those buffs/debuffs. Most importantly, the NB has a decent and reliable burst heal. I mean just look at this:
vs this:
One could argue that Blessing of Restoration is an AoE heal and needs to have a lower tooltip, but the Sorc needs to slot a resto staff for that ability, whereas a NB can not only slot it as well for the AoE heal, but it can also slot a non-resto staff weapon and still have access to a decent and reliable burst heal.
Ironically, NB also has one of the best survivability in the game with Cloak + Shadow Image along with a decent and reliable burst heal. A full damage NB is just as slippery as a full damage Sorc, while also being tankier.
It's time Sorc needs to be buffed to NB standards, or NB and other dominating classes need to be nerfed to Sorc standards.
This really exposes the massive power delta between top tier classes like NB and the relatively pitiful state of Sorc. It is baffling to me that ZOS seems unable or unwilling to do basic calculations like this that make the difference so extremely apparent.Right now you guys have incredible heal by using Surge, alot of dots and ~30% crit rate. You need just streak to target-put elem weak with vateshran and hit target with twin slashes, thats all. And you will be healed 3k every second by surge. With current nerf mara's set you will be such strong as dk.
That's actual nonsense, sorry. Sorc does not have "a lot of dots", sorc doesn't even have an in-class source of Major Prophecy so our ability to crit to even get crit surge procs is extremely compromised. Ah yes, twin slashes, clearly the ideal skill for a spellcaster, no problems here at all.Edited by acastanza_ESO on May 13, 2023 6:01PM11 -
Afterip✭✭✭
Oh my bad. We play at different mmr probably so at low rate you will not find any stamDOTsorc.acastanza_ESO wrote: »...
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acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Oh my bad. We play at different mmr probably so at low rate you will not find any stamDOTsorc.acastanza_ESO wrote: »...
Lol, imagine thinking I have a low MMR. No you see them all the time because they're the best way to play sorc, but saying that they're good compared to what you can do on many other classes is a joke. And those builds perform much better on other classes as well. And the fact that stam-melee is the best way to play a Sorcerer is ridiculous.Edited by acastanza_ESO on May 13, 2023 6:29PM5 -
Afterip✭✭✭
Other classes dont get ~3k heal when dot get crit so sorc really good with crit dots. You need just put on front bar camohunter and you will get majoir + minor prophesy(10%base+12%major from camo+6% minor from sorc buff)acastanza_ESO wrote: »...
ANd i agreed that sorc played as melee with dual looks stupid, where is there staffs and powerfull spells? I want to play necro with staff becouse necro is a caster too but its too weak and pathetic. So pvp not right place for RP,. there is only need effective kill enemies.
I saw a lot of time when 2-4players is trying to kill one stamDotsorc but all of them just melted by him. I dont use mara so i died with them too
Elemental Susceptibility put 2 hits and 1 dot 4sec every 7 sec.
Rending Slashes put 2 dots 20 sec and 4 sec.
Poisons put 2 dots.
Allt of this CAN crit and sorc will be healed by surge, and with ~30% crit Surge will be proced EVERY sec, if your target dont have mara or dispel skill...Edited by Afterip on May 13, 2023 6:52PM1 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Other classes dont get ~3k heal when dot get crit so sorc really good with crit dots. You need just put on front bar camohunter and you will get majoir + minor prophesy(10%base+12%major from camo+6% minor from sorc buff)acastanza_ESO wrote: »...
ANd i agreed that sorc played as melee with dual looks stupid, where is there staffs and powerfull spells? I want to play necro with staff becouse necro is a caster too but its too weak and pathetic. So pvp not right place for RP,. there is only need effective kill enemies.
I saw a lot of time when 2-4players is trying to kill one stamDotsorc but all of them just melted by him. I dont use mara so i died with them too
Since you seem fixated on the 3300 crit surge tooltip, I need to note that you don't actually get this value in gameplay. It is affected by battlesprit. Crit surge is a great PVE heal, and it is decent, or maybe even good passive healing but it is not an adequate in-class self heal. Once again, someone (you) have given an example clutching on camo hunter to plug an inexcusable gap in the sorc toolkit.
I will admit that my dislike of melee does come from an RP perspective though, and the fact that ZOS has made half the game non-viable for serious PVP is a separate issue entirely (although sorc is one of the classes most severely impacted by that game design decision)6 -
ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »...
Elemental Susceptibility put 2 hits and 1 dot 4sec every 7 sec.
Rending Slashes put 2 dots 20 sec and 4 sec.
Poisons put 2 dots.
That's funny, none of the skills you mentioned come from sorc's own skill line. When a class must use a large number of skills from other skill lines, what is the significance of the existence of this class?
"是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.10 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
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Oh my bad. We play at different mmr probably so at low rate you will not find any stamDOTsorc.acastanza_ESO wrote: »...
I play a DoT stamsorc in high MMR, and I can tell you 3 things:
1) It’s carried by 3 proc sets, all of which can be used by other classes
2) It’s survivability is carried by Mara’s Balm and that will be gone next patch when the set gets nerfed
3) It crutches on Master DW, which is just about the only weapon that lets it compete with other melee classes
Watch any high MMR pre-made fights. You rarely see a lot of stamsorcs. You’ll mostly see Wardens, DKs, or even NB. The only few stamsorcs are either running niche builds or die hard sorc mains.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc3 -
Afterip✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »
And again I repeat. Other classes can use the same tools to deal dot damage, but they WILL NOT RECEIVE HEALING BY PROCING CRITICAL DOTS.
So my suggestion is to change Surge that the crite dots did not trigger heal, but at the same time increase heal from surge by 20-30%.
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StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »
And again I repeat. Other classes can use the same tools to deal dot damage, but they WILL NOT RECEIVE HEALING BY PROCING CRITICAL DOTS.
So my suggestion is to change Surge that the crite dots did not trigger heal, but at the same time increase heal from surge by 20-30%.
I don’t care if Surge can proc every 1 second. I will take Healthy Offering over Surge any day, and this is coming from a 5 year die hard stamsorc main.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc7 -
Afterip✭✭✭I know only few really good and skilled stamsorcs who play without vateshrans staff and twinslashes. Any other stamsorcs cant do nothing without dots.
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StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I know only few really good and skilled stamsorcs who play without vateshrans staff and twinslashes. Any other stamsorcs cant do nothing without dots.
Stamsorc doesn’t exist without those procs lol. Every single decent stamsorc is using either Master DW or some proc. The entire class relies on procs and it’s evident throughout ESO’s history.
Can you name a stamsorc meta that doesn’t have procs? You can’t. But I can name you several stamsorc meta with procs:
1) Viper Sting + Tremorscale + Red Mountain stamsorc
2) Unfathomable + Master DW stamsorc
3) Way of Fire + Deadlands stamsorc
4) Savage WW bowsorc
5) Unleashed Terror Stamsorc
6) Vateshran staff + Master DW stamsorc
I’ve played through it all to know this class exists solely because of cheese sets. Lots of people will agree with me on this.
Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc4 -
Afterip✭✭✭
VodkaBearNuclearWeapon BEST stamsorc in the game. You can watch his pvp video cyro/bg. Ofc he play WITHOUT procs, only skill matter. Fighting him few times, still 0 wins...StaticWave wrote: »Stamsorc doesn’t exist without those procs lol. Every single decent stamsorc is using either Master DW or some proc. The entire class relies on procs and it’s evident throughout ESO’s history.
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StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
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VodkaBearNuclearWeapon BEST stamsorc in the game. You can watch his pvp video cyro/bg. Ofc he play WITHOUT procs, only skill matter. Fighting him few times, still 0 wins...StaticWave wrote: »Stamsorc doesn’t exist without those procs lol. Every single decent stamsorc is using either Master DW or some proc. The entire class relies on procs and it’s evident throughout ESO’s history.
No he isn’t lol. Each platform has top tier stamsorcs and unless they all duel each other you can’t really claim he’s the best.
Procs matter mate. Idk what era of the game you’re talking about but today’s age a full proc stamsorc WILL DESTROY a no proc stamsorc if both players are of equal skill.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc8 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »
And again I repeat. Other classes can use the same tools to deal dot damage, but they WILL NOT RECEIVE HEALING BY PROCING CRITICAL DOTS.
So my suggestion is to change Surge that the crite dots did not trigger heal, but at the same time increase heal from surge by 20-30%.
This has got to be the worst suggestion for sorc I've ever read....
With this change, not only does sorc have the worst tooltip and most punishing burst heal in the game, but now the class has no healing over time as well in its class kit. This is just a straight up nerf to the entire sorcerer class and would make magsorc completely unplayable to the point that it would make current necro look like current DK in comparison.
I know you think stamsorc is broken like DK at the moment, but stamsorc is only 1 spec of the sorc class and the rest of the class is really bad right now and any nerf you make to proc stamsorc that is not specific to ONLY proc stamsorc itself will only serve to delete other sorc specs from the game. Just like what ZOS did back in U35 where they gutted the entire class because of the savage werewolf bowsorc that was overperforming because of specifically the savage werewolf set.
You want to know WHY other classes don't proc heals on their dots? ITS BECAUSE THEY HAVE RELIABLE AND STRONG PASSIVE HOTS AND BURST HEALS ALREADY THAT THEY DON'T NEED ANYMORE being procd from their damage, unlike sorc that has practically no healing without those heal procs from crit surge. If we are to take it to its extent, warden has leaching vines (heals on damage), NB has siphoning strikes (heals on damage), DK has burning embers (heals on damage), plar has jabs, necro has scythe, so every class has something that heals on damage, the reason sorcs allows it to heal off any damage instead of specific damage is because sorc does not have any traditional HoTs in its class kit and its burst heal is tied to a pet or a non scaling interruptible sustain ability that has a much lower tooltip than traditional burst heals.
The only way to ensure your proposed change to crit surge doesn't kill the class would be to make it have an 8k proc heal (unaffected by battle spirit) or remove all requirements of it needing damage dealt and make it into an actual HoT like all the others in the game or at the bare minimum make it proc off any damage with zero cooldown instead of proccing off critical damage. Neither of these 3 options sound anywhere near balanced, but that is how bad your proposed change for crit surge would be for the class.
You (and not just you, but anyone else calling sorcs OP) need to understand, the class looks OP because only the most diehard sorc mains who have put literal thousands of hours into mastering the class are the ones left playing it now. There's no such thing as an "average sorc" anymore, they've all been made into pack mules/PvE toons and those players have long since switched to other classes.10 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I know only few really good and skilled stamsorcs who play without vateshrans staff and twinslashes. Any other stamsorcs cant do nothing without dots.
This here states exactly what we've all been saying, the class, even the OP proc sorcs, are nothing without the procs to carry them, it's not the class that's OP, its the combination of proc sets that is OP and needs adjusting.
You have literally said this yourself that it's the procs carrying the class, but you seem to think that the class is OP.3 -
Afterip✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »
I put Vodka on first place because only he play no proc and crush enemies face, even Decimus play with dots, but he is really strong player too.
Thats why i play "no cp cyro" where i cant finde guys like you, who do nothing without procs.
And i say it again, EVERY class can play with dot procs, but only SORC can be healed by crit dots and thats give them greater advantage.
Im little tired to to talk some guy and leave this thread.1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
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VodkaBearNuclearWeapon BEST stamsorc in the game. You can watch his pvp video cyro/bg. Ofc he play WITHOUT procs, only skill matter. Fighting him few times, still 0 wins...StaticWave wrote: »Stamsorc doesn’t exist without those procs lol. Every single decent stamsorc is using either Master DW or some proc. The entire class relies on procs and it’s evident throughout ESO’s history.
I have not only spoken to, but played alongside and fought, stamsorc mains that most players of vodkabear's caliber refuse to fight in a fair 1v1. Players that have found, created and played all sorts of crazy builds, interactions, etc in the game and not just for sorc that make the seemingly impossible happen, but they all say that the class needs fixing and is nowhere near as OP as NB, DK or warden.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »
VodkaBearNuclearWeapon BEST stamsorc in the game. You can watch his pvp video cyro/bg. Ofc he play WITHOUT procs, only skill matter. Fighting him few times, still 0 wins...StaticWave wrote: »Stamsorc doesn’t exist without those procs lol. Every single decent stamsorc is using either Master DW or some proc. The entire class relies on procs and it’s evident throughout ESO’s history.
No he isn’t lol. Each platform has top tier stamsorcs and unless they all duel each other you can’t really claim he’s the best.
Procs matter mate. Idk what era of the game you’re talking about but today’s age a full proc stamsorc WILL DESTROY a no proc stamsorc if both players are of equal skill.
I think there may be a misunderstanding about what constitutes a proc here but regardless there are currently very few good no proc sets in the game.
Even though ZOS tried to make it so that procs were more in line with stat density it just doesn't usually work out that way.
But the mathematical answer to the question would really be to take a non proc set user and a proc set user and compare their damage and defense numbers over the course of the timer of the longest proc timer. If the damage output (including burst spikes) were roughly the same then either of them could win in a fight.
But I'd say are we counting all procs, defensive procs, or resource procs? If you count all procs then you have a stamsorc wearing like a max stat set, maybe a pen set, and a 2 piece damage or recovery set, doesn't sound great but I also don't know all the tips and tricks and have seen some people pull off things I didn't think were possible so I wouldn't rule out that this could work.
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StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »
I put Vodka on first place because only he play no proc and crush enemies face, even Decimus play with dots, but he is really strong player too.
Thats why i play "no cp cyro" where i cant finde guys like you, who do nothing without procs.
And i say it again, EVERY class can play with dot procs, but only SORC can be healed by crit dots and thats give them greater advantage.
Im little tired to to talk some guy and leave this thread.
Lol no disrespect but Vodka will lose to a proc sorc with the same skill level as his, and he knows it. I’m not sure why you think otherwise.
If you pitch Vodka with a no proc build against himself with a proc build, he’s going to lose to the proc version every single time.Edited by StaticWave on May 14, 2023 3:52PMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc2 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
I put Vodka on first place because only he play no proc and crush enemies face, even Decimus play with dots, but he is really strong player too.
Thats why i play "no cp cyro" where i cant finde guys like you, who do nothing without procs.
And i say it again, EVERY class can play with dot procs, but only SORC can be healed by crit dots and thats give them greater advantage.
Im little tired to to talk some guy and leave this thread.
Lol no disrespect but Vodka will lose to a proc sorc with the same skill level as his, and he knows it. I’m not sure why you think otherwise.
If you pitch Vodka with a no proc build against himself with a proc build, he’s going to lose to the proc version every single time.
I'm not saying you're wrong but man there's a whole lot of supposition in this argument.
To take this from another angle. Static what non proc builds have you tried on stamsorc that utterly failed?0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
I put Vodka on first place because only he play no proc and crush enemies face, even Decimus play with dots, but he is really strong player too.
Thats why i play "no cp cyro" where i cant finde guys like you, who do nothing without procs.
And i say it again, EVERY class can play with dot procs, but only SORC can be healed by crit dots and thats give them greater advantage.
Im little tired to to talk some guy and leave this thread.
Lol no disrespect but Vodka will lose to a proc sorc with the same skill level as his, and he knows it. I’m not sure why you think otherwise.
If you pitch Vodka with a no proc build against himself with a proc build, he’s going to lose to the proc version every single time.
I'm not saying you're wrong but man there's a whole lot of supposition in this argument.
To take this from another angle. Static what non proc builds have you tried on stamsorc that utterly failed?
Everything. I stopped using procs since 2018 (I have several videos on my youtube channel showing fights with proc sets) and only occasionally used Vateshran or Master DW.
It’s not so much that they “fail”. They are still statistically good. The issue is proc builds are just better.
I can show you an example of a non proc vs proc build, give me a few moments.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Bushido2513
So here is a comparison between a non-proc and proc build on stamsorc. I'll post screenshots of the build, the self-buffed stats, the skill setup, and the tooltip of the abilities and proc sets. Note that this comparison does not include CPs, Amplitude passive, Continuous Attack, etc. The only buffs I've included are self-buffs provided by abilities and sets.
Let's start with the non-proc build:
Next, we have the proc build:
So how does the non-proc build compare to the proc one? Well, if Balorgh isn't counted, the non-proc build has 2605 more HP, 804 more WD, 2744 more pen. This results in an overall higher ability tooltip with Crystal Weapon sitting at 11616, Curse at 15998, and Dawnbreaker at 21600. If we use Balorgh at 500 ultimate points, then the final WD, pen, and according ability tooltips will be higher.
But realistically most people aren't going to sit at 500 ultimate, so let's use 200 as our arbitrary value for Balorgh. Our new WD and pen values for the entire duration of Balorgh will be 8290 WD and 13221 pen, respectively. Compared to the proc build's 7202 WD and 5877 pen values, we can see that these stats look a lot better.
That's great! So what about the proc build? Well, it has less WD and pen, but 5.4% more crit chance and 1541 more mag. The ability tooltips are 10691 for Crystal Weapon, 14725 for Curse, and 19878 for Dawnbreaker. You'd probably think the build is weaker, but hold that thought. I've included the tooltip of Zaan and Vate Staff for a reason. Zaan's tooltip is 1260 per tick and increasing by 100% every tick. That means the tooltip will be 1260, 2520, 3780, 5040,... and 12600 for the last tick. For Vate Staff, the average tooltip is 2460 per tick, with the final tick dealing 20% more damage. Both proc sets tick every second. Master Dual Wield is a special case because while it isn't necessarily a proc as it only turns Twin Slash into a regular spammable, it is still considered a proc due to the fact that the DoT of Twin Slash is also affected, making it tick for ~1800-2300 damage every 2 seconds.
At this point you're probably wondering why I included all of these stats and tooltips. What i'm trying to say is this:
While a non-proc build can give higher base stats, it doesn't do free damage.
The non-proc build above only has 925 higher Crystal Weapon tooltip damage than the proc build, but it doesn't have 3 proc sets that literally apply ~3000-7000 FREE extra equivalent tooltip damage every second. What's going to happen in a real fight between players using those 2 builds is the proc build will apply Vate Staff proc, Zaan proc, block cast Rending Slash, then literally hold block to sit and watch the non-proc player rot to death from just DoT pressure, both from abilities and procs.
The best chance that non-proc player can have is 100-0 with a fat burst combo, assuming the opponent is too incompetent to try blocking the combo. Against someone who's competent, there's next to no shot.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc8 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭@StaticWave
Yup I had to tag that one with a phat agree being that the breakdown makes it all too clear. Thank you I know that took some effort on your part and I do appreciate it and hope that others read the breakdown.
The biggest point right away is that even if the two players have the same skill bar, the proc sets when applied will continue to tick away while the wearer is free to take other actions.
Even with two evenly matched players this gives the proc set user an edge even when you factor in the opponent having higher damage. Though I think the no proc set user would still win some of the time I would agree with your statistical statement because it's going to be harder I think for a no proc user to keep up with cast and forget proc damage over the course of a fight.0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »@Bushido2513So here is a comparison between a non-proc and proc build on stamsorc. I'll post screenshots of the build, the self-buffed stats, the skill setup, and the tooltip of the abilities and proc sets. Note that this comparison does not include CPs, Amplitude passive, Continuous Attack, etc. The only buffs I've included are self-buffs provided by abilities and sets.
Let's start with the non-proc build:
Next, we have the proc build:
So how does the non-proc build compare to the proc one? Well, if Balorgh isn't counted, the non-proc build has 2605 more HP, 804 more WD, 2744 more pen. This results in an overall higher ability tooltip with Crystal Weapon sitting at 11616, Curse at 15998, and Dawnbreaker at 21600. If we use Balorgh at 500 ultimate points, then the final WD, pen, and according ability tooltips will be higher.
But realistically most people aren't going to sit at 500 ultimate, so let's use 200 as our arbitrary value for Balorgh. Our new WD and pen values for the entire duration of Balorgh will be 8290 WD and 13221 pen, respectively. Compared to the proc build's 7202 WD and 5877 pen values, we can see that these stats look a lot better.
That's great! So what about the proc build? Well, it has less WD and pen, but 5.4% more crit chance and 1541 more mag. The ability tooltips are 10691 for Crystal Weapon, 14725 for Curse, and 19878 for Dawnbreaker. You'd probably think the build is weaker, but hold that thought. I've included the tooltip of Zaan and Vate Staff for a reason. Zaan's tooltip is 1260 per tick and increasing by 100% every tick. That means the tooltip will be 1260, 2520, 3780, 5040,... and 12600 for the last tick. For Vate Staff, the average tooltip is 2460 per tick, with the final tick dealing 20% more damage. Both proc sets tick every second. Master Dual Wield is a special case because while it isn't necessarily a proc as it only turns Twin Slash into a regular spammable, it is still considered a proc due to the fact that the DoT of Twin Slash is also affected, making it tick for ~1800-2300 damage every 2 seconds.
At this point you're probably wondering why I included all of these stats and tooltips. What i'm trying to say is this:
While a non-proc build can give higher base stats, it doesn't do free damage.
The non-proc build above only has 925 higher Crystal Weapon tooltip damage than the proc build, but it doesn't have 3 proc sets that literally apply ~3000-7000 FREE extra equivalent tooltip damage every second. What's going to happen in a real fight between players using those 2 builds is the proc build will apply Vate Staff proc, Zaan proc, block cast Rending Slash, then literally hold block to sit and watch the non-proc player rot to death from just DoT pressure, both from abilities and procs.
The best chance that non-proc player can have is 100-0 with a fat burst combo, assuming the opponent is too incompetent to try blocking the combo. Against someone who's competent, there's next to no shot.
Nice breakdown.
Proc sets have definitely carried the class for a long time now. Even magsorc is not completely immune to it.
The 3 best magsorc builds currently are:
- Mara's back bar, draugrkin front bar
- Mara's body draugrkin front and vate staff back
- Mara's + wretched vitality
All of these builds run proc sets on top of Mara's balm proc. The closest you could argue is draugrkin, but that still does what proc sets do and that is providing free (non stat based) damage for the wearer, it just does it in a more indirect pressure based way than the traditional burst procs we're used to seeing.
The old magicka stacking shield sorc builds are about as close as the class gets to a proper stat based build and those are not in a good spot, even after the buffs, and it's simply because of how they changed the scaling of max resources for damage and healing.
This shows that it is definitely the overtuned proc sets carrying the class at this point and more of them are buffing out of class abilities instead of in class abilities meaning any class can run the same build and perform just as good if not better due to a better inherent kit, it's just that those other classes usually choose not to because they have other options that utilize their actual kit instead of being forced into out of class abilities with generic proc sets.
I hope ZOS realizes this before it's too late and we get another U35 change to sorcerers again because of the overtuned proc sets that have enabled 1 specific generic proc build only that any class could do just as well on, especially now with mist form giving all classes a "ball of lightning at home" ability.
P.s. fun fact, I've ran magsorc in no-cp, no proc cyro (a while ago when resto staves were BiS back bar), it did pretty well, the main thing helping it though was that resto staff carried healing and the majority of players there didn't know how to fight a sorc (well 2 technically it was me and a friend, both on magsorc) that knows what they're doing once the playing field had been levelled to the sorcs level of play, i.e. stat based and skill based combat, no procs, no CP.
It was enlightning to the possible potential of sorc if it were to be over-buffed to DKs or NBs current level, but that is not needed (or wanted) and certainly won't be done by simply fixing the few issues the class needs fixing up.
On a more PvE specific note,The same bias ideal testing conditions is happening for sorc in PvE as well. Trial dummy parses are tailor made for the sorcerer class.
- Single target only
- No survivability/sustain required
- All buffs/debuffs of an organized raid provided
And still, the class's strongest PvE build (pets) is merely on par the other classes while being "tested" under the most tailor made ideal and favorably biased conditions the class could ever dream of and not under real game play conditions.
If they truly wanted to accurately test gameplay conditions to provide accurate data for their balance spreadsheets without doing actual content, they would set up trial boss dummys to better reflect actual content, (between 1 and 3 of the 21m health) and have a bunch of 3 mill and 6 mill target dummys next to the main trial dummys to represent all the adds that keep getting added to content and test each class's dps under those more realistic content conditions.
I doubt they'll do that though, it would show that the true state of the class is not fine and that they (and the sorc detractors) are completely wrong about where they think the class is at.
It's no wonder the only sorcs you see in hard PvE content are HA builds with pets, there's no other way for the class to do that content otherwise outside of support roles which other classes simply do better.5 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭there are 2 lots of problems with sorc.
1 is that non pet sorc under performs
2 is that pet sorc has no bar space
non pet sorc has bar space for slotting something like camo hunter
pet sorc doesn't
this is why, in my opinion, major proph and sav should be added to twilight tormentor. this fills one of the big gaps with pet sorc.
non pet sorc needs buffing, or pets need nerfing and then all of sorc gets buffed in some way. this is a separate issue.
3+ is the lacking of healing options, lack of cleave, lack of unique debuffs, the terrible state of lightning staffs outside HA builds, how useless concussive is as a status, how annoying frags cast time is, how weak the execute in in PvE while also being too strong in PvP, the lack of class dots and so on.
they have laid out that they are not doing big changes this update, so we'll just leave the list of grievances here for next update i guess.
as for this update:
the atro change is great. it's a strong group buff for trials.
dark exchange buffs are a good, low impact buffs. usually if i need to run dark deal i have to drop trap for it, so at least not losing minor force is nice.
just get rid of the scamp stun entirely. the current change is a half measure that doesn't really help the problem the stun causes. the extra concussive proc chance is a joke. as in it's laughable. do something better with it or just don't bother.
Forcing classes to use non-class abilities simply for passive buffs (e.g. Camo Hunter) feels quite bad and should not be necessary in a better balanced game.
The very existence of Camo Hunter in the meta is sort of a shameful commentary on the game's current balance. In a system with only 5 active abilities slots per bar we should all be slotting skills for what they do while active not for what they do by hanging out, unused, on our bar.3 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »there are 2 lots of problems with sorc.
1 is that non pet sorc under performs
2 is that pet sorc has no bar space
non pet sorc has bar space for slotting something like camo hunter
pet sorc doesn't
this is why, in my opinion, major proph and sav should be added to twilight tormentor. this fills one of the big gaps with pet sorc.
non pet sorc needs buffing, or pets need nerfing and then all of sorc gets buffed in some way. this is a separate issue.
3+ is the lacking of healing options, lack of cleave, lack of unique debuffs, the terrible state of lightning staffs outside HA builds, how useless concussive is as a status, how annoying frags cast time is, how weak the execute in in PvE while also being too strong in PvP, the lack of class dots and so on.
they have laid out that they are not doing big changes this update, so we'll just leave the list of grievances here for next update i guess.
as for this update:
the atro change is great. it's a strong group buff for trials.
dark exchange buffs are a good, low impact buffs. usually if i need to run dark deal i have to drop trap for it, so at least not losing minor force is nice.
just get rid of the scamp stun entirely. the current change is a half measure that doesn't really help the problem the stun causes. the extra concussive proc chance is a joke. as in it's laughable. do something better with it or just don't bother.
Forcing classes to use non-class abilities simply for passive buffs (e.g. Camo Hunter) feels quite bad and should not be necessary in a better balanced game.
The very existence of Camo Hunter in the meta is sort of a shameful commentary on the game's current balance. In a system with only 5 active abilities slots per bar we should all be slotting skills for what they do while active not for what they do by hanging out, unused, on our bar.
If they changed the active part of Camo Hunter to something more meaningful like providing an AoE pulse of damage every X seconds, then it would be so much better. Instead we have it sit there for the majority of a fight because not everyone you encounter is a stealthy NB.
Meanwhile Flames of Oblivion and Green Lotus can be used against every opponent.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc3 -
Quethrosar✭✭✭✭classes should not be balanced,
sorcerer should be best damage out of all classes by alot, not just a little. but on the other hand it should die in 2 hits. DnD people....
3 -
Pelanora✭✭✭✭✭So it's July, and i guess with zos and sorc, no news is usually bad news, and news is usually bad news, but..... have we had any news?0