Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »...
It isn't a flashy solution but it does make a lot of sense from a design standpoint.
No. Doesn't make sense. It doesn't give one percent more chance or damage.
If anything you are calling for an unnamed buff to crit chance, that stacks it further up, but not Major Prophecy.
It also doesn't free any bar space in group content, because one is required to use spell power potions anyway.
Plus 5 and even ten percent more do not make any difference to how often crit surge procs. Because, even at 50% it is the parallel damage instances that come from DoTs that will guarantee the one crit damage per second needed for the Crit surge heal proc. Need an example?
You have two pets, wall, hurricane and caltrops. That makes 5 DoTs plus light attacks and a spammable (eight with the poison or burning). That is a total of six damage instances within one second plus hurricane every two seconds. Only one of these six/seven needs to crit in order to proc the crit surge heal.
That crit surge argument is outdated. And obviously wrong.
Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »...
It isn't a flashy solution but it does make a lot of sense from a design standpoint.
No. Doesn't make sense. It doesn't give one percent more chance or damage.
If anything you are calling for an unnamed buff to crit chance, that stacks it further up, but not Major Prophecy.
It also doesn't free any bar space in group content, because one is required to use spell power potions anyway.
Plus 5 and even ten percent more do not make any difference to how often crit surge procs. Because, even at 50% it is the parallel damage instances that come from DoTs that will guarantee the one crit damage per second needed for the Crit surge heal proc. Need an example?
You have two pets, wall, hurricane and caltrops. That makes 5 DoTs plus light attacks and a spammable (eight with the poison or burning). That is a total of six damage instances within one second plus hurricane every two seconds. Only one of these six/seven needs to crit in order to proc the crit surge heal.
That crit surge argument is outdated. And obviously wrong.
Zodiarkslayer wrote: »I think that Major Savagery/Prophecy is already available to every Sorcerer. Putting them on an ability that everybody uses anyway seems redundant. Doubly redundant, actually.
Sorcerer needs more reliable sources for more crit damage, not crit chance. Ideally from a passive, not an ability.
If you want to improve the class, you need to add things that are currently unavailable, come at too high a cost or are simply inefficient/ineffective in their current from.
I don't know if Major and Minor Berserk are the best solution for the classes damage problem. Especially slamming these on a disliked ability with such a long cast time, combined with these durations seems counterproductive.
Instead, more synergy with the Lightning Element would be a real benefit. A higher proc chance for concussed status effect from class skills, like the Warden has.
Or flat damage increases like the Dragonknight has.
A ground DoT in the heavy weight class, like Templars or Nightblades have, would diversify the damage options away from the pets.
The same goes for the scaling of the execute skill. Just bonus damage is the wrong way. It needs to be at least as powerful as Impale. Maybe not as much as Radiant Oppression, but definetly follow an effectiveness standard for ranged Magicka executes. Which, btw., the entire game doesn't have!
Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »...
It isn't a flashy solution but it does make a lot of sense from a design standpoint.
No. Doesn't make sense. It doesn't give one percent more chance or damage.
If anything you are calling for an unnamed buff to crit chance, that stacks it further up, but not Major Prophecy.
It also doesn't free any bar space in group content, because one is required to use spell power potions anyway.
Plus 5 and even ten percent more do not make any difference to how often crit surge procs. Because, even at 50% it is the parallel damage instances that come from DoTs that will guarantee the one crit damage per second needed for the Crit surge heal proc. Need an example?
You have two pets, wall, hurricane and caltrops. That makes 5 DoTs plus light attacks and a spammable (eight with the poison or burning). That is a total of six damage instances within one second plus hurricane every two seconds. Only one of these six/seven needs to crit in order to proc the crit surge heal.
That crit surge argument is outdated. And obviously wrong.
Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »...
It isn't a flashy solution but it does make a lot of sense from a design standpoint.
No. Doesn't make sense. It doesn't give one percent more chance or damage.
If anything you are calling for an unnamed buff to crit chance, that stacks it further up, but not Major Prophecy.
It also doesn't free any bar space in group content, because one is required to use spell power potions anyway.
Plus 5 and even ten percent more do not make any difference to how often crit surge procs. Because, even at 50% it is the parallel damage instances that come from DoTs that will guarantee the one crit damage per second needed for the Crit surge heal proc. Need an example?
You have two pets, wall, hurricane and caltrops. That makes 5 DoTs plus light attacks and a spammable (eight with the poison or burning). That is a total of six damage instances within one second plus hurricane every two seconds. Only one of these six/seven needs to crit in order to proc the crit surge heal.
That crit surge argument is outdated. And obviously wrong.
pets attacks don't proc anything. that's why they are worse than dots.
the point of putting major proph / sav on something is that you can do a build that uses something other than spell power pots.
sorc is fine as long as it's a single target parse fight, basically as long as you're killing the trial dummy the class is great. the more cleave matters or the less support you have the more sorc drops off.
Something i see come up a lot is that sorc needs "higher chance to proc concussed" as though that'll help. Can we just accept the fact that it didn't do squat for warden until they gave the warden a passive that does huge damage when proccing chilled. increasing concussed status procs won't do anything for our dps. concussed does hardly any damage on proc and we already have high minor vuln uptimes. the whole thing is pointless without some other change to cause sorcs to do more damage vs concussed targets or something.
@Turtle_Bot i don't think it's a misconception, i think it's a pretty accurate statement of fact that sorc pet builds have less bar space. the bare minimum is 5 skills, 4 pets and prey. if you're running matriarch then you've losing more than half your flappy bird dps.
The problem is that non pet sorc builds don't have strong skills or passives to counter the pet setups. they definitely have the bar space to slot inner light or camo hunter but even running a full bar of dots they have less dps than a pet setup, so it's a non starter.
Turtle_Bot wrote: »My guess is they only base their balance decisions on year+ old data from the live servers
Mhhh - is it so hard to read what they said?Zodiarkslayer wrote: »
pets attacks don't proc anything.
And without the one exception I know - unstable familiar - (which almost nobody plays) that's correct.Turtle_Bot wrote: »technically speaking the pets don't proc anything outside of concussed status
Zodiarkslayer wrote: »
StaticWave wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »My guess is they only base their balance decisions on year+ old data from the live servers
Hate to say it but this seems like how ZOS gathers feedback. I mean, we had a whole Class Rep program with actual seasoned players voted by the majority of the community to help identify key problems with each class in PvE and PvP, but their efforts went on deaf ears.
If they were really basing their balance decisions on data from the live servers, then I would expect them to know that sorc is mostly a newbie class because of that old school sorcerer theme, and as the playerbase progresses the class becomes less played and nearly non-existent at the top level.
Not saying class isn't playable, but it's just not fun by today's standards.
Sure. Sure. Because you can believe every claim some random guy makes on the forum without an explanation or even proof. Yeah...Mhhh - is it so hard to read what they said?
They both said that they don't proc anything - not that they don't crit:
Thank you for clearing that up. I honestly didn't know that. And I think it is counterintuitive, that an ability that one casts behaves not like all other abilities that one casts.Turtle_Bot wrote: »...
Pet attacks can crit, the issue is that when pet attacks crit, they don't proc the crit surge heal because the pets count as different units, not the character that cast/has crit surge active. It's the same thing with proc sets, the pets are not wearing the sets so their attacks won't proc those sets.
...
It had nothing to do with being scepticalZodiarkslayer wrote: »Its called being sceptical...
Seriously? That part of the discussion was about what abilities proc Crit Surge... By CRITTING ...It had nothing to do with being sceptical
They said "proc" you answered "crit" - just 2 different topics.
In v9.0.3 we still haven't seen any changes regarding wizards, it seems like they haven't listened to anything
Have we been forgotten because of the birth of the Arcanist?
StaticWave wrote: »There were many threads before this with heavy discussions on what buffs Sorc needs, but I believe we can all agree on 3 things:
1) Sorc needs better reliable self heals (in PvP at least). This may compromise their mobility for balancing, but it’s a compromise I think many people are willing to make
2) Sorc needs higher crit rate
3) Sorc needs its passives reworked
Fixing just 1 of these 3 things will improve the class by a mile. Fixing all 3 of them (and making compromises as necessary), and you will have a class that’s not only up-to-date, but also playable by the majority of players.
I'd suggest the mages guild skill line. It is due a rework and would be fitting. First make Mage light do something else so it is useful to other classes. Then completely rework Fire rune into a spammable that grants Major prophecy in some way. Sorc needs to slot a spammable to proc crystal frags and current options don't do much for sorc. The animation of fire rune is already sweet. Just make it Firball, lighting bolt, or ice bolt instead of the gimmick skill that hardly anybody uses.
i11ionward wrote: »
I think these are good changes, especially Dark Deal changes.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin
But for god's sake, increase the duration of Minor Berserk and Minor Force on the Dark Deal morph to 20 seconds. It's terribly tedious and not fun to maintain a 10 second buff with a cast time skill.
StaticWave wrote: »There were many threads before this with heavy discussions on what buffs Sorc needs, but I believe we can all agree on 3 things:
1) Sorc needs better reliable self heals (in PvP at least). This may compromise their mobility for balancing, but it’s a compromise I think many people are willing to make
2) Sorc needs higher crit rate
3) Sorc needs its passives reworked
Fixing just 1 of these 3 things will improve the class by a mile. Fixing all 3 of them (and making compromises as necessary), and you will have a class that’s not only up-to-date, but also playable by the majority of players.
Sorc needs to be willing to think outside the box and I don't think the compromises need to be that heavy. Primarily the solution doesn't have to come within the sorc kit itself and as has been shown there might not be room there anyway.
I'd suggest the mages guild skill line. It is due a rework and would be fitting. First make Mage light do something else so it is useful to other classes. Then completely rework Fire rune into a spammable that grants Major prophecy in some way. Sorc needs to slot a spammable to proc crystal frags and current options don't do much for sorc. The animation of fire rune is already sweet. Just make it Firball, lighting bolt, or ice bolt instead of the gimmick skill that hardly anybody uses.
i11ionward wrote: »
I think these are good changes, especially Dark Deal changes.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin
But for god's sake, increase the duration of Minor Berserk and Minor Force on the Dark Deal morph to 20 seconds. It's terribly tedious and not fun to maintain a 10 second buff with a cast time skill.
I agree that everyone sorc was waiting for Major Prophecy and Savagery . But we have what we have.Turtle_Bot wrote: »i11ionward wrote: »
I think these are good changes, especially Dark Deal changes.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin
But for god's sake, increase the duration of Minor Berserk and Minor Force on the Dark Deal morph to 20 seconds. It's terribly tedious and not fun to maintain a 10 second buff with a cast time skill.
I'm going to disagree here, the buffs given are far too easy to obtain through better ways and don't add enough for what you lose when using the skill, especially since it's cast time is the full 1 second GCD, not 0.8 seconds like other cast time/channel abilities have.
StaticWave wrote: »There were many threads before this with heavy discussions on what buffs Sorc needs, but I believe we can all agree on 3 things:
1) Sorc needs better reliable self heals (in PvP at least). This may compromise their mobility for balancing, but it’s a compromise I think many people are willing to make
2) Sorc needs higher crit rate
3) Sorc needs its passives reworked
Fixing just 1 of these 3 things will improve the class by a mile. Fixing all 3 of them (and making compromises as necessary), and you will have a class that’s not only up-to-date, but also playable by the majority of players.
Turtle_Bot wrote: »i11ionward wrote: »
I think these are good changes, especially Dark Deal changes.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin
But for god's sake, increase the duration of Minor Berserk and Minor Force on the Dark Deal morph to 20 seconds. It's terribly tedious and not fun to maintain a 10 second buff with a cast time skill.
I'm going to disagree here, the buffs given are far too easy to obtain through better ways and don't add enough for what you lose when using the skill, especially since it's cast time is the full 1 second GCD, not 0.8 seconds like other cast time/channel abilities have.
Since it has a full 1 second cast time (not 0.8 like other channeled/cast time abilities) you don't get to weave a LA in that GCD. So by using it for those 2 buffs, you potentially lose out on:
1 ability cast (this can be used for barbed trap which lasts longer and provides a good DoT)
1 LA weave (+ associated weapon type status effect procs)
1-2 glyph procs (depending on equipped weapon)
1 second of LA ulti gen (assuming it runs out when you go to cast dark deal)
and the rotation becomes significantly harder to perform.
I don't see this being used at all in PvE at all and not really mattering that much for PvP:
- Bird heals for more + heals others and has a passive DoT (and doesn't get focused by enemies so it actually lives long enough to matter)
- Camo hunter passively gives minor berserk + major prophecy (sorely lacking buff for the class) + FG passives for damage (higher than sorc class passives that do the same thing) and no GCD required to get these buffs
- Barbed trap fills minor force + gives 1 of the best single target DoTs in the game (or for AoE, RaT/CA which lasts significantly longer and also grants movement speed and snare immunity).
To make this change an actual buff, it should have also given major prophecy/savagery passively all the time + both buffs on the active, or at the minimum, the major versions of those 2 buffs (force and berserk) on the active.StaticWave wrote: »There were many threads before this with heavy discussions on what buffs Sorc needs, but I believe we can all agree on 3 things:
1) Sorc needs better reliable self heals (in PvP at least). This may compromise their mobility for balancing, but it’s a compromise I think many people are willing to make
2) Sorc needs higher crit rate
3) Sorc needs its passives reworked
Fixing just 1 of these 3 things will improve the class by a mile. Fixing all 3 of them (and making compromises as necessary), and you will have a class that’s not only up-to-date, but also playable by the majority of players.
Sorc needs to be willing to think outside the box and I don't think the compromises need to be that heavy. Primarily the solution doesn't have to come within the sorc kit itself and as has been shown there might not be room there anyway.
I'd suggest the mages guild skill line. It is due a rework and would be fitting. First make Mage light do something else so it is useful to other classes. Then completely rework Fire rune into a spammable that grants Major prophecy in some way. Sorc needs to slot a spammable to proc crystal frags and current options don't do much for sorc. The animation of fire rune is already sweet. Just make it Firball, lighting bolt, or ice bolt instead of the gimmick skill that hardly anybody uses.
I'm going to have to disagree with this as well. In terms of out of class spammables, destro staff cushing shock/force pulse needs to be reworked is all, although a mages guild line rework to be closer in power to fighters guild line would be welcome.
But the main disagreement I have with this is something already mentioned, other classes get to fully utilize the majority of their kits for whatever role they want to build for but sorc has to lean significantly more on out of class abilities to fill the basic functions of those roles when compared to the other classes.
I can understand when building a tank needing a taunt (since sorc is supposed to be a dd by design) and HoTs as a healer since the class lacks group HoTs and burst heals are the primary basic function of healers and the bird is good for PvE healing, but the fact the class has to also rely on out of class abilities for a spammable (the primary ability for its primary role as DD) it is quite absurd to think about.
Other classes rely on 1-2 out of class abilities to fill gaps and some functions for 1-2 roles that the classes weren't designed for, but sorc relies on out of class abilities for the basic functions of all 3 roles including the role it was designed for.
Lucifer9th wrote: »just change the active part of bound aegis in a hot or burst heal which gives major prophecy/savagery for 20 sec in replace of the 5 sec damage block bonus and the minor protection buff
it will result a good skill to slot for access major prophecy/savagery on both bar which can help reduce the healing problem of the class