Why with Arcanist are we still moving towards health scaling defense abilities?

Panderbander · May 2023

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that someone be unable to heal or unable to do damage or unable to tank damage. If you want to split stats to be okay at all three, then that's up to you with your build. But someone that's running 5+ heavy with high HP shouldn't be able to heal enough that there's no need of a healer. The same goes for anyone running a damage set up.

Fortunately, the game IS flexible enough that you could build an arena-specific build that isn't amazing at any one thing but can get the job done without changing the mechanics themselves.

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

If a tank has good self heals that is part of their survivability tool kit.

That is survivability and not healing because they are unable to heal others.

I am not sure what the point of this particular argument is?

When you're only healing yourself then that is survivability. Just like your defensive stats this aids in your survival from what can kill you.

Damage abilities and the stats they scale from involve the ability to kill, healing abilities and the stats they scale with involve the ability to heal.

Survivability skills and stats involve the ability to survive.

Seems pretty simple and balanced to me.

I am not sure why anyone want to alter that?

The difference between a tank and a DPS or healer in this case is that the tank should be able to take a hit that would level a DPS or healer. I don't know of a single ability in vet solo content that requires "tank-level" survivability; they either kill you outright regardless or can be avoided through other means. Pairing that survivability with spammable self-heals strong enough to negate the need for a healer makes pve content boring and pvp incredibly boring and drawn out.

I personally would suggest not removing heals from tanks altogether but placing them in a position that they can't just be spammed. Make the cost prohibitive enough that they could get one to two uses before running out of resources or tie them to something such as a charge system so they can't be spammed with 100% effectiveness.

To be clear, I don't expect ZOS to do any of this and the jack of all trades, master of all is the world we're stuck with and complaining about--likely until this game is shut down.

The gameplay in ESO is about spammable abilities. This is not a hot key mmo. There are limited abilities and no one is going to use or slot an ability that is so cost prohibitive that is can rarely be used.

You want to substantially alter tanks to not have self heals and instead have very high mitigation only.

How would that be accomplished and why is there need for it? Does this extend to non tank roles?

How would all of this make the game better? So far this sounds absolutely horrible.

It's just beginning to sound like you want the game altered so substantially to where it seems like a game like ESO where you can play the way you want isn't your type of game.

I just want the game to be enjoyable. A game full of deathless, infinite sustain tanks running the same 3-4 sets is not enjoyable. Dying of boredom because nobody is dying is not enjoyable. Health-based heals and shields (to a lesser extent) are a big part of that problem.

In any case I'm going to disengage from further discussion on the matter as it won't lead to anything more than a green post talking about removing posts. I've stated what I think would be healthy for the game long-term and I have no expectation it will amount to anything.

Vulkunne · May 2023

I don't really see this as being that big of a threat as it is possible to calibrate health vs magicka and come up with some strong shielding. No that's not the problem.

The problem is after that, Battle Spirit cuts my shield in half making it useless in a situation when its really needed because I'm taking massive damage and spending resources that I don't have trying in vain to keep up a shield that is weak.

You have to remember the very reason for this change was because you had sorcs running around with like 50k+ magicka in total and like 5k health being unkillable and wrecking entire groups of people. They would streak, thru groups, spam shield, take maybe one hit once in a while and annhilate everyone around them. They brought this one on themselves kinda but Battle Spirit could use some adjusting.

edward_frigidhands · May 2023

Panderbander wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that someone be unable to heal or unable to do damage or unable to tank damage. If you want to split stats to be okay at all three, then that's up to you with your build. But someone that's running 5+ heavy with high HP shouldn't be able to heal enough that there's no need of a healer. The same goes for anyone running a damage set up.

Fortunately, the game IS flexible enough that you could build an arena-specific build that isn't amazing at any one thing but can get the job done without changing the mechanics themselves.

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

If a tank has good self heals that is part of their survivability tool kit.

That is survivability and not healing because they are unable to heal others.

I am not sure what the point of this particular argument is?

When you're only healing yourself then that is survivability. Just like your defensive stats this aids in your survival from what can kill you.

Damage abilities and the stats they scale from involve the ability to kill, healing abilities and the stats they scale with involve the ability to heal.

Survivability skills and stats involve the ability to survive.

Seems pretty simple and balanced to me.

I am not sure why anyone want to alter that?

The difference between a tank and a DPS or healer in this case is that the tank should be able to take a hit that would level a DPS or healer. I don't know of a single ability in vet solo content that requires "tank-level" survivability; they either kill you outright regardless or can be avoided through other means. Pairing that survivability with spammable self-heals strong enough to negate the need for a healer makes pve content boring and pvp incredibly boring and drawn out.

I personally would suggest not removing heals from tanks altogether but placing them in a position that they can't just be spammed. Make the cost prohibitive enough that they could get one to two uses before running out of resources or tie them to something such as a charge system so they can't be spammed with 100% effectiveness.

To be clear, I don't expect ZOS to do any of this and the jack of all trades, master of all is the world we're stuck with and complaining about--likely until this game is shut down.

The gameplay in ESO is about spammable abilities. This is not a hot key mmo. There are limited abilities and no one is going to use or slot an ability that is so cost prohibitive that is can rarely be used.

You want to substantially alter tanks to not have self heals and instead have very high mitigation only.

How would that be accomplished and why is there need for it? Does this extend to non tank roles?

How would all of this make the game better? So far this sounds absolutely horrible.

It's just beginning to sound like you want the game altered so substantially to where it seems like a game like ESO where you can play the way you want isn't your type of game.

A game full of deathless, infinite sustain tanks running the same 3-4 sets is not enjoyable. Dying of boredom because nobody is dying is not enjoyable.

This is...not happening in actual group vs group play in Cyro or Imperial City.

This is happening in useless small scale tower engagements that provide a lot of opportunities for a build designed with the right mobility and sustain to utilize line of sight and cc immunity to keep small disorganized groups busy.

You are getting an image of survivability that is not present in actual group vs group play.

Design a defensive build and run into an offensive group and see how long you live.

You are saying you want the game to be fun but everything you have suggested goes against that.

Less choices are not fun. Extensively micromanage gameplay experiences are not fun.

The ability to play the way you want and create the builds you want is fun.

There are so many posts in this forum from the same handful of people with this host of horrible ideas that if implemented would only leave those few people playing the game.