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Why with Arcanist are we still moving towards health scaling defense abilities?
MetallicMonk
✭✭✭✭✭
I don't understand why zos continues to think this is fun or healthy for the game whatsoever. From what I understand PvE players are not asking for this, and is not all too important on their side of things, and every single person hardcore or casual on the PvP side of the game pretty much unanimously agrees that it's a super boring and tanky/high hp meta that hasn't been fun for the better part of the year.
Polar Wind should not scale off max health, hardened ward should not scale off max health, none of arcanist's defensive abilities should scale off max health.
Where are these invisible voices telling you to not only put these terrible mechanics into the game but to reinforce them by putting more in on a new class from the start.
Polar Wind should not scale off max health, hardened ward should not scale off max health, none of arcanist's defensive abilities should scale off max health.
Where are these invisible voices telling you to not only put these terrible mechanics into the game but to reinforce them by putting more in on a new class from the start.
20
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sharquez✭✭✭✭✭
✭Look man hate to be the bearer of bad news but every single new class release is punctuated by it being over powered on release to give incentive to buy and instill FOMO and then reigned in later. You don't have to like it but If you embrace it you can enjoy it somewhat until things settle down later.2 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If ZOS' aim is for Arcanist to be OP so people buy the chapter... swing and a miss.5 -
xDeusEJRx✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah, health scaling mechanics are always crappy unless you're playing a tank, and as far as I know every class, maybe except for DK was notorious for health stacking like crazy to build into 1 extremely strong health defensive mechanic.
Part of the reason I REALLY hate it is, not only does it create for terrible balancing and combat scenarios, the result is the skill gets destroyed with nerfs once someone takes it to a new level(which is always bound to happen).
I can deal with overtuned sets, but I hate it when combat skills get thrown in the garbage due to bad mechanics.
I want to have variety choice in skill options, but design choices like this leaves skills gutted for a long time after reworks.Solo PvP'er PS5 NA player
90% of my body is made of Magblade3 -
MetallicMonk✭✭✭✭✭Look man hate to be the bearer of bad news but every single new class release is punctuated by it being over powered on release to give incentive to buy and instill FOMO and then reigned in later. You don't have to like it but If you embrace it you can enjoy it somewhat until things settle down later.
That's not really my point though, I don't really care if the class is overpowered on release; what I'm talking about is specifically the HP scaling defensive ability/abilities that are apart of it, and other classes currently.
What's so confusing is that this doesn't even seem to be a polarizing issue, there aren't really two sides arguing over this with one thinking it's good. Almost everyone tells them that it's bad, and not only are they not changing this direction from the overwhelmingly one-sided feedback, they're doubling down on this design direction.3 -
Panderbander✭✭✭✭✭MetallicMonk wrote: »I don't understand why zos continues to think this is fun or healthy for the game whatsoever. From what I understand PvE players are not asking for this, and is not all too important on their side of things, and every single person hardcore or casual on the PvP side of the game pretty much unanimously agrees that it's a super boring and tanky/high hp meta that hasn't been fun for the better part of the year.
Polar Wind should not scale off max health, hardened ward should not scale off max health, none of arcanist's defensive abilities should scale off max health.
Where are these invisible voices telling you to not only put these terrible mechanics into the game but to reinforce them by putting more in on a new class from the start.
You forgot the werewolf heal. I'm so tired of having to build high health tank just to get a decent heal as a werewolf.Leader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"3 -
chessalavakia_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think you are overestimating the popularity of such a decision.
If people disliked health stacking more than other things, you wouldn't see as many people doing it.
On my tank that I primarily use to solo dungeons 30% of the regular skills on my bars scale with hp. It's not by any means meta in PvE but, it does make you very hard to kill and in much of the content can cut down on the need to block. I've bought virtually all of ESO's dungeon DLC because that character enabled me to solo them and experience the story on them. I'm not exactly going to be pleased if I have to redo it because 1vXers don't feel they are getting enough kills.9 -
Panderbander✭✭✭✭✭People aren't doing it because they like it, they're doing it because it puts them at a significant disadvantage to not do so.Leader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"6
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haelgaan✭✭✭✭✭typically, tanks stack health, deeps stack stam or mag, healers stack mag. having defensive tank skills scale by health is a simple nod to how tanks work. i don't see the issue.
Edited by haelgaan on May 2, 2023 1:20AM14 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Every class have atleast one HP scaling defense because tanks in PvE are usually using that.8 -
Panderbander✭✭✭✭✭Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.Leader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"2 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
So I guess DDs don't need heals either, right?
So heals shouldn't scale with weapon/spell power either, right?Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.8 -
Panderbander✭✭✭✭✭Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
So I guess DDs don't need heals either, right?
So heals shouldn't scale with weapon/spell power either, right?
Honestly, no. I've advocated here on the forums before that heals should scale off max Magicka or Stamina and damage should scale off... Ya know, damage.
Edit: in case this sounds outlandish or unprecedented, literally every set in this game that has a scalable heal attached to it scales that heal off max stats already.Edited by Panderbander on May 2, 2023 1:41PMLeader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"5 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Panderbander wrote: »Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
So I guess DDs don't need heals either, right?
So heals shouldn't scale with weapon/spell power either, right?
Honestly, no. I've advocated here on the forums before that heals should scale off max Magicka or Stamina and damage should scale off... Ya know, damage.
Edit: in case this sounds outlandish or unprecedented, literally every set in this game that has a scalable heal attached to it scales that heal off max stats already.
Let’s go a step further, there should be a stat called “restoration” which your heals would scale off of.Power Wealth And Influence.3 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
So I guess DDs don't need heals either, right?
So heals shouldn't scale with weapon/spell power either, right?
Correct, they should not.
Healers should heal.8 -
Roylund✭✭Panderbander wrote: »Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
So I guess DDs don't need heals either, right?
So heals shouldn't scale with weapon/spell power either, right?
Honestly, no. I've advocated here on the forums before that heals should scale off max Magicka or Stamina and damage should scale off... Ya know, damage.
Edit: in case this sounds outlandish or unprecedented, literally every set in this game that has a scalable heal attached to it scales that heal off max stats already.
That would actually be a great change. Suddenly there's tradeoffs regarding where your stats go.
I had a friend I introduced recently to the game and he opted to start a healer. Once we started doing vet content he realized that people's healthbars were rarely dropping and went "wait... so the damage dealers have heals or shields and the tank can also heal... what's the point of me being a healer." This was even worse when I explained to him why groups wanted a 3rd DD instead of a healer since they can skip mechs by just burning through bosses.
Healers right now are more like "supports" in other games but the game doesn't tell you that. I think the role is not clear on what it's supposed to be, hence the meta shift to healers being a bit more DPSy than before (rip Breton healers). If heals scaled from max stats suddenly DPS and Tanks struggle with their healing a lot more and the healing role becomes more necessary and is further differentiated from the other roles.2 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Panderbander wrote: »Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
So I guess DDs don't need heals either, right?
So heals shouldn't scale with weapon/spell power either, right?
Honestly, no. I've advocated here on the forums before that heals should scale off max Magicka or Stamina and damage should scale off... Ya know, damage.
Edit: in case this sounds outlandish or unprecedented, literally every set in this game that has a scalable heal attached to it scales that heal off max stats already.
While that would be neat and something I have suggested before as well, it's not something I have ever seen majority support for.
Meanwhile, removing health-scaled heals would completely upend PvE tanking. People already complain that ESO tanks are boring and lackluster as it is because they can't deal any damage. If we took self-healing from them as well, the whole role architecture would have to be overhauled.
Which I'm not opposed to, but, again, when has that ever been a popular demand?Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.4 -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭MetallicMonk wrote: »I don't understand why zos continues to think this is fun or healthy for the game whatsoever. From what I understand PvE players are not asking for this, and is not all too important on their side of things, and every single person hardcore or casual on the PvP side of the game pretty much unanimously agrees that it's a super boring and tanky/high hp meta that hasn't been fun for the better part of the year.
Polar Wind should not scale off max health, hardened ward should not scale off max health, none of arcanist's defensive abilities should scale off max health.
Where are these invisible voices telling you to not only put these terrible mechanics into the game but to reinforce them by putting more in on a new class from the start.
What we have now (please correct me when wrong):
1. When you have a DPS build with a lot of Spell-Weapon Damage you can dish out high DPS AND dish out high HPS
2. When you have a build with a lot of Health you can absorb high DPS burst AND dish out high HPS with health scaling heals.
3. The DPS build can on top switch all the time between using (bursts of) DPS abilities or (bursts of) HPS abilities.
4. The High Health build cannot toggle big style between offensive and defensive, because offensive does not really exist.
I leave Armor Resistance out of the equation because that is 1:1 symmetrical. DPS can invest in more Penetration versus High Health can invest in more Resistance.
So what happens when health scaling heals are removed ?
(assuming that playing skills are equal and no special terrain circumstances there)
A build with more health will do so at the expensive of more Spell-Weapon power, of healing power.
=> the healing power then lower than the DPS power of builds having invested less in health and more in Spell-Weapon power.
In other words you survive with high health more likely the initial attack burst but are bound to die in the following steady state fight.And even when attacked without an initial DPS burst where that high health was useful, you will in any steady fight slowly lose all your health.
Would that not lead to all builds only seeking high Spell-Weapon power and the discussion back on the forefront:
"how can it be that the highest DPS builds, with lots of Spell-Weapon power, have also the highest heals ?"
Edited by hrothbern on May 4, 2023 8:22AM"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU2 -
AndreNoir✭✭✭Panderbander wrote: »Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
So I guess DDs don't need heals either, right?
So heals shouldn't scale with weapon/spell power either, right?
Honestly, no. I've advocated here on the forums before that heals should scale off max Magicka or Stamina and damage should scale off... Ya know, damage.
Edit: in case this sounds outlandish or unprecedented, literally every set in this game that has a scalable heal attached to it scales that heal off max stats already.
While that would be neat and something I have suggested before as well, it's not something I have ever seen majority support for.
Meanwhile, removing health-scaled heals would completely upend PvE tanking. People already complain that ESO tanks are boring and lackluster as it is because they can't deal any damage. If we took self-healing from them as well, the whole role architecture would have to be overhauled.
Which I'm not opposed to, but, again, when has that ever been a popular demand?
Why it should be overhauled if health regen and healer role are still there ? There are also tank sets for selfhealing/shielding. Just be honest: on most PvE content tank doesn't wear selfhealing/defending sets and healer actually is a 0,5*DD/buffer that heals DDs (with tiny amount of health). On top of that there are plenty of content, even DLC, that can be done even with HM without healer completely.
The only thing that healing on beefy armored guys doing - is making healers obsolete. And yet result of that is the most boring thing I ever seen in MMO - unkillable 50k hp warden/dk/necro/plars before that runs around objectives and annoy everyone while charging ult for balorg proc2 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
By that logic, why does the dps role need strong heals?
That makes absolutely no sense.3 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭MetallicMonk wrote: »I don't understand why zos continues to think this is fun or healthy for the game whatsoever. From what I understand PvE players are not asking for this, and is not all too important on their side of things, and every single person hardcore or casual on the PvP side of the game pretty much unanimously agrees that it's a super boring and tanky/high hp meta that hasn't been fun for the better part of the year.
Polar Wind should not scale off max health, hardened ward should not scale off max health, none of arcanist's defensive abilities should scale off max health.
Where are these invisible voices telling you to not only put these terrible mechanics into the game but to reinforce them by putting more in on a new class from the start.
Health is a pure defensive stat. Pure defensive abilities need to scale with defensive stats.
This is nothing new as far as ESO is concerned.
What alternative would you prefer? Pure defensive abilities scaling with offensive stats?
Why? So that everyone has to roll the dps role in every part of the game?
Think about this a little bit friend.Edited by edward_frigidhands on May 6, 2023 3:56AM5 -
Panderbander✭✭✭✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
By that logic, why does the dps role need strong heals?
That makes absolutely no sense.
It doesn't. Someone else already posited this.
DPS should have good DPS, not strong heals. Tanks should have good damage mitigation, not strong heals. The only role that should have strong heals... Is heals. And heals... Shouldn't have good DPS or damage mitigation.Leader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"2 -
Artim_X✭✭✭✭✭
✭Solo content exists and I don't mean "oh I bet I can solo this," but rather content specifically designed to be cleared solo, so yes a build can be strong at doing damage, healing, and surviving.
The game used to allow players to queue up for more than one role. Ex: normal content doesn't require dedicated roles as long as one satisfies the minimum requirement of a role.
ESO is a flexible game that allows people to play how they want in relation to their role.(AD) Artim X/Xirtām/Måtrix |PC/NA| Casual staff wielding vampire sorcerer/templar/arcanistElectric-Burn/Stunhttps://media.giphy.com/media/Av0zcKH3i2BkaY1GXW/giphy.gif/https://c.tenor.com/jQHdFftrgwMAAAAC/tenor.gifElectric-Heal- Damage Dealing Build.
- Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Inferno/Lightning Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Rage of the Ursauk jewelry (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/flame/weapon damage enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
- Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Boundless Storm, Mages' Wrath, Lightning Flood, Twilight Tormentor (Twilight Matriarch for solo roleplay variant of build), and Power Overload.
- Ability-Bar 2: Crushing Shock/Storm Pulsar, Streak, Flame/Shock Reach, Unstable Wall of Fire/Storms, Twilight Tormentor (Twilight Matriarch for solo roleplay variant of build) and Fiery/Thunderous Rage.
https://media.giphy.com/media/5ibGIHneWS6ek/giphy.gifElectric-Ward- My Healer Build.
- Gear: 5 Spell Power Cure (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (Charged/shock enchant), and Infallible Aether jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/restoration staff (Powered with absorb magicka enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
- Ability-Bar 1: Power Surge, Boundless Storm, Blessing of Restoration, Energy Orb, Twilight Matriarch, and Replenishing Barrier.
- Ability-Bar 2: Dark Deal, Overflowing Altar, Elemental Drain, Blockade of Storms, Twilight Matriarch, and Aggressive Horn.
https://media.giphy.com/media/Wa0TGmtDvwW3e/giphy.gifElectric-Vamp- My Meme Tank Build that uses high resistance and variety of wards.
- Gear: 5 Brands of Imperium (All body pieces except Head and Shoulders, with Divine trait, and with Prismatic Defense Enchants), full Mother Ciannait's (1 light and 1 medium. Divines and Max Mag Enchant), and Combat Physician jewelry (bloodthirsty with Prismatic Recovery Enchants), CP restoration staff (Infused with hardening enchant), and CP ice staff (Infused with crusher enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Bound Aegis, Deep Thoughts, Boundless Storm, Healing Ward, and Replenishing Barrier.
- Ability-Bar 2: Silver Leash (Elemental Drain if healer isn't running it), Bound Aegis, Frost Clench, Blockade of Frost, Empowered Ward, and Temporal Guard.
https://media.giphy.com/media/ukDQiYZzRAxMZKcK86/giphy.gifDawnfang- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact for regular and NoCP build/Oblivion's Foe for dot build (medium chest and body pieces light. All Impenetrable. Max Mag Enchants). Gaze of Sithis and 1 light Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton (light shoulders, and impenetrable with Max Mag Enchants). Knight Slayer/Pariah jewelry/Plaguebreak for dot build (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused with oblivion enchant for regular and noCP build/absorb magicka enchant and Sharpened for dot build. Sharpened for dot build)/restoration staff (infused with oblivion enchant regular and noCP build/absorb magicka enchant and Sharpened for dot build).
- Ability-Bar 1: Structured Entropy, Boundless Storm, Soul Splitting Trap, Radiating Regeneration, Healing Ward, and Life Giver.
- Ability-Bar 2: Drain Vigor (Elemental Susceptibility), Race Against Time, Rune Cage, Radiant Magelight, Empowered Ward, and Shatter Soul.
https://media.tenor.com/ogWfvDdsqBIAAAAd/anime-black-clover.gifDuskfang- My casual one bar heavy attack Templar build that only utilizes Aedric Spear abilities.
- Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (Head or Shoulder and body pieces except Chest. All body pieces Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchant), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (Infused/shock enchant), and Sergeant's Mail jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Puncturing Sweep, Aurora Javelin, Toppling Charge, Blazing Spear, Radiant Ward, and Crescent Sweep.
https://media.tenor.com/Jo8aG_ouy_oAAAAd/ac-odyssey.gifPvE Starter Gear- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (Heavy Chest with light Head, Waist, Hands, and Feet. All body pieces Impenetrable. Health enchant on head and everything else Magicka Enchants), 1 Medium Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton Shoulder (Impenetrable, Max Health Enchant), Knight Slayer Restoration Staff (Infused/Decrease Health enchant/Stealth-Draining Poison IX), and Knight Slayer jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with Spell Damage Enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1:Radiant Oppression, Race Against Time, Aurora Javelin, Breath of Life, Resolving Vigor, and Life Giver (Shatter Soul).
https://media.giphy.com/media/6CovzgyTig7M4/giphy.gifRace- Gear: 5 Law of Julianos (heavy chest, gloves/belt light, and the rest can be light or 1 medium piece if you're not wearing medium anywhere else on your body. All in training if grinding for XP or divines), Armor of the Seducer or Magnus' Gift head, shoulder, and staves (light with 1 medium piece if you are not already wearing 1 medium Julianos piece. All in training or divines. The staves should be training or infused), and 3 purple Willpower Jewelry with Arcane trait (can be bought from trading guilds for relatively cheap.
- Check tamrieltradecentre.com for the best deals if you're not using a price checking addon).
https://media.giphy.com/media/sdEkeWpiaGz0A/giphy.gifMundus Stones- High elf, since you will not have issues with sustain, but other mag based races are also fine so this is more of a personal choice.
https://media.giphy.com/media/cT3wMhLGQWdKU/giphy.gifCurrent Champion Points- PvP: The Lover for penetration when playing a sorc or temp.
- PvE Healing/Damage: The Thief for decent crit rate.
- PvE Tanking: The Lady to get close to resistance cap.
https://media.giphy.com/media/l4FGDAx6u3hthMhgI/giphy.gifFavorite Foods and Potions- DPS Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Exploiter, Weapons Expert, Biting Aura, Thaumaturge, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- Healer Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Hope Infusion, Weapon's Expert, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- Tanky Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Ironclad, Enduring Resolve, Reinforced, Duelist's Rebuff, Bastion, Ward Master, Rejuvenation, Fortified.
- PvP Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, Occult Overload, Arcane Supremacy, Bastion, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- PvE Temp: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Fighting Finesse, Master-at-Arms, Weapons Expert, Biting Aura, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- PvP Temp: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, From the Brink, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
https://media.giphy.com/media/3otPoTggaYFNd1FdAI/giphy.gif- Parse Food for PvE:(DPS) Ghastly Eye Bowl (increases Max Magicka by 4592 and Magicka Recovery by 459 for 2 hours).
- Gold/Purple Food for Sorc PvP and Meme Tanking:(PvP) Clockwork Citrus Filet (increases Max Health by 3326, Health Recovery by 406 [useful if stage 1 vampire], Max Magicka by 3080, and Magicka Recovery by 338 for 2 hours). Witchmother's Potent Brew (Increase Max Magicka by 2856, Max Health by 3094, and Magicka Recovery by 315 for 2 hours.
- Trash Potions when feeling cheap: Regular CP150 Essence of Magicka pots that I obtain frequently from playing the game or Crown Tri-Restoration Potion obtained from dailies.
- Crafted Potions: Essence of Spell Critical (Bugloss, Lady's Smock, and Water Hyacinth). Without magelight this is my primary means of obtaining Major Prophecy on my Sorc, which increases my Spell Critical Rating. This also heals and restores magicka. Essence of Immovability (Columbine, Corn Flower, and Wormwood). I use this in PvP, since this gives me stealth detection, knockback immunity, and restores magicka (better to use it when competent allies are nearby, since it might reveal that you are surrounded by multiple players in stealth and you will not have an emergency pot available after use). Essence of Invisibility with only 2 ingredients (Blue Entoloma, Namira's Rot, Nirnroot, or Spider Egg). I use this in PvE content that requires stealth and if I need more speed I'll use Rapid Maneuver before using the potion. Essence of Invisibility with 3 ingredients (Blessed Thistle, Blue Entoloma, and Namira's Rot). Very useful in PvP alongside the vampire Dark Stalker passive, since you'll be invisible, ignore movement speed penalty while in Crouch, and you'll have a 30% movement speed boost from Major Expedition (I always have this slotted when riding from point A to B in PvP land, since gankers are always lurking). My templar will mostly use Essence of Health (Tri-Stat Potion) Ingredients: (Mountain Flower, Columbine, and Bugloss).
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Since a tank is more likely to stack health instead of mag or stam is makes for a skills in a tanking focused skill to scale off health while other skill lines like the healing skill line to focus off mag or mag and stam.
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edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Panderbander wrote: »edward_frigidhands wrote: »Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
By that logic, why does the dps role need strong heals?
That makes absolutely no sense.
It doesn't. Someone else already posited this.
DPS should have good DPS, not strong heals. Tanks should have good damage mitigation, not strong heals. The only role that should have strong heals... Is heals. And heals... Shouldn't have good DPS or damage mitigation.
If a tank has good self heals that is part of their survivability tool kit.
That is survivability and not healing because they are unable to heal others.
I am not sure what the point of this particular argument is?
When you're only healing yourself then that is survivability. Just like your defensive stats this aids in your survival from what can kill you.
Damage abilities and the stats they scale from involve the ability to kill, healing abilities and the stats they scale with involve the ability to heal.
Survivability skills and stats involve the ability to survive.
Seems pretty simple and balanced to me.
I am not sure why anyone want to alter that?0 -
nublife01✭✭✭✭Look man hate to be the bearer of bad news but every single new class release is punctuated by it being over powered on release to give incentive to buy and instill FOMO and then reigned in later. You don't have to like it but If you embrace it you can enjoy it somewhat until things settle down later.
thats not his point. his point is the class is structured to have 0 movement and be tanky/brawler which is something the entire higher skill curve and ultimately entire pvp community wants to move away from. its an arcanist, a mage, the class should be a glass cannon in pvp with heavy movement mechanics like shadowly disguise or streak instead of a subpar portal that probably wont even be slotted over some backbar tank meta brawler meta faceroll.
they couldve literally excluded all this tanky garbage that they shoved into the class and instead of a cruddy portal given arcanist a unique movement ability thats a combination of bolt escape and shadow image to give the class a 1vx potential and higher skill curve of surviveablity than just going to back bar and pressing block and tank buttons. teleport forward x meters (like bolt escape) then if the ability used again after 1.5 seconds have passed but also before 5 seconds have passed teleport back to original location. sheesh they couldve even added one morph that makes the teleported space into a portal to be used 2 more times (with some sort of cool down of course) and another morph that gives a minor or major expedition after teleporting with the tradeoff of reducing the 1-5 seconds one has to teleport back to their original location from a window of 1.5-3 seconds. boom another awesome 1vx potential kiting class like og mag sorc or stamblade instead of a flattened skill curve boring brawler that is ruining any fun in the pvp of this game. also took me five seconds to think of this.
edit: DOWN WITH THE TANK METAEdited by nublife01 on May 6, 2023 9:43PM1 -
kringled_1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Panderbander wrote: »edward_frigidhands wrote: »Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
By that logic, why does the dps role need strong heals?
That makes absolutely no sense.
It doesn't. Someone else already posited this.
DPS should have good DPS, not strong heals. Tanks should have good damage mitigation, not strong heals. The only role that should have strong heals... Is heals. And heals... Shouldn't have good DPS or damage mitigation.
Solo vet arenas exist. And a lot of trials content has tanks either isolated from heals or dependent on both self healing and healer based healing. I understand your principle but it's not well aligned with the reality of eso's pve content.2 -
Panderbander✭✭✭✭✭I'm not suggesting that someone be unable to heal or unable to do damage or unable to tank damage. If you want to split stats to be okay at all three, then that's up to you with your build. But someone that's running 5+ heavy with high HP shouldn't be able to heal enough that there's no need of a healer. The same goes for anyone running a damage set up.
Fortunately, the game IS flexible enough that you could build an arena-specific build that isn't amazing at any one thing but can get the job done without changing the mechanics themselves.edward_frigidhands wrote: »
If a tank has good self heals that is part of their survivability tool kit.
That is survivability and not healing because they are unable to heal others.
I am not sure what the point of this particular argument is?
When you're only healing yourself then that is survivability. Just like your defensive stats this aids in your survival from what can kill you.
Damage abilities and the stats they scale from involve the ability to kill, healing abilities and the stats they scale with involve the ability to heal.
Survivability skills and stats involve the ability to survive.
Seems pretty simple and balanced to me.
I am not sure why anyone want to alter that?
The difference between a tank and a DPS or healer in this case is that the tank should be able to take a hit that would level a DPS or healer. I don't know of a single ability in vet solo content that requires "tank-level" survivability; they either kill you outright regardless or can be avoided through other means. Pairing that survivability with spammable self-heals strong enough to negate the need for a healer makes pve content boring and pvp incredibly boring and drawn out.
I personally would suggest not removing heals from tanks altogether but placing them in a position that they can't just be spammed. Make the cost prohibitive enough that they could get one to two uses before running out of resources or tie them to something such as a charge system so they can't be spammed with 100% effectiveness.
To be clear, I don't expect ZOS to do any of this and the jack of all trades, master of all is the world we're stuck with and complaining about--likely until this game is shut down.Leader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MetallicMonk wrote: »Look man hate to be the bearer of bad news but every single new class release is punctuated by it being over powered on release to give incentive to buy and instill FOMO and then reigned in later. You don't have to like it but If you embrace it you can enjoy it somewhat until things settle down later.
That's not really my point though, I don't really care if the class is overpowered on release; what I'm talking about is specifically the HP scaling defensive ability/abilities that are apart of it, and other classes currently.
What's so confusing is that this doesn't even seem to be a polarizing issue, there aren't really two sides arguing over this with one thinking it's good. Almost everyone tells them that it's bad, and not only are they not changing this direction from the overwhelmingly one-sided feedback, they're doubling down on this design direction.
POLARizing issue lol
Wait till warden tanks catch WIND of this :PPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX2 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭Panderbander wrote: »Why do tanks need a strong self-heal? A tank is supposed to hold aggro and mitigate damage, not take a lot of damage then heal back up on their own. An "Oh <snip>" button with a cooldown maybe, but that's basically what role an ultimate plays in ESO since ability cooldowns aren't much of a thing.
A tank capable of spam self-healing doesn't need a healer, which minimizes the utility of an entire role.
Maybe the trick is to give HP-scaling heals a prohibitive cost or use ultimate so they can't just be spammed.
So we can play more content solo.2 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Panderbander wrote: »I'm not suggesting that someone be unable to heal or unable to do damage or unable to tank damage. If you want to split stats to be okay at all three, then that's up to you with your build. But someone that's running 5+ heavy with high HP shouldn't be able to heal enough that there's no need of a healer. The same goes for anyone running a damage set up.
Fortunately, the game IS flexible enough that you could build an arena-specific build that isn't amazing at any one thing but can get the job done without changing the mechanics themselves.edward_frigidhands wrote: »
If a tank has good self heals that is part of their survivability tool kit.
That is survivability and not healing because they are unable to heal others.
I am not sure what the point of this particular argument is?
When you're only healing yourself then that is survivability. Just like your defensive stats this aids in your survival from what can kill you.
Damage abilities and the stats they scale from involve the ability to kill, healing abilities and the stats they scale with involve the ability to heal.
Survivability skills and stats involve the ability to survive.
Seems pretty simple and balanced to me.
I am not sure why anyone want to alter that?
The difference between a tank and a DPS or healer in this case is that the tank should be able to take a hit that would level a DPS or healer. I don't know of a single ability in vet solo content that requires "tank-level" survivability; they either kill you outright regardless or can be avoided through other means. Pairing that survivability with spammable self-heals strong enough to negate the need for a healer makes pve content boring and pvp incredibly boring and drawn out.
I personally would suggest not removing heals from tanks altogether but placing them in a position that they can't just be spammed. Make the cost prohibitive enough that they could get one to two uses before running out of resources or tie them to something such as a charge system so they can't be spammed with 100% effectiveness.
To be clear, I don't expect ZOS to do any of this and the jack of all trades, master of all is the world we're stuck with and complaining about--likely until this game is shut down.
The gameplay in ESO is about spammable abilities. This is not a hot key mmo. There are limited abilities and no one is going to use or slot an ability that is so cost prohibitive that is can rarely be used.
You want to substantially alter tanks to not have self heals and instead have very high mitigation only.
How would that be accomplished and why is there need for it? Does this extend to non tank roles?
How would all of this make the game better? So far this sounds absolutely horrible.
It's just beginning to sound like you want the game altered so substantially to where it seems like a game like ESO where you can play the way you want isn't your type of game.
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