NO RUNE OF DISPLACEMENT PLEASE

Danse_Mayhem · April 2023

Proposed morph of the skill ; Imperfect Ring

Dark convergence was the single worst set that was ever introduced to ESO. Anyone who remembers the double pull, massive damage BS will remember that PVP immediately went to *** overnight when that came out.
The nerfs to that set have been a good choice - Only one pull, less explosion damage, and a large cool-down. 25 seconds on that set is reasonable and means it needs to be used situationally and not spammed…

But now we are getting a class skill that does the same thing… With no cool-down at all?? For clarity, this isn’t a 5pc set which requires build investment, it’s a single slot on the bar for any role, which can be spammed. This is a TERRIBLE idea and will catapult PVP into that god awful state it was in where 9/10 people were using dark convergence.

Please ZOS rethink this morph. Adding a no cool-down version of the most ridiculous proc set the game has ever seen, as a skill is going to be awful for pvp.

LunaFlora · April 2023

this is a super useful ability for tanking

and anybody who uses this in pvp is probably also someone who would've used dark convergence so not really a difference, just a different source for the effect

Danse_Mayhem · April 2023

LunaFlora wrote: »

this is a super useful ability for tanking

and anybody who uses this in pvp is probably also someone who would've used dark convergence so not really a difference, just a different source for the effect

If you read what I said there you’ll see why there’s a problem - The cool-down. Sure anyone is welcome to use DC right now, but it has a 25 second cool-down, and not an effective 2s like this thingy does.

As a PVE tank I’d find this useful too, but it would completely butcher pvp in one swing so as cool as it would be on my tank, I’m thinking bigger picture this is a terrible skill idea.

ketsparrowhawk · April 2023

Yeah I'm not looking forward to this in BG's. You know it'll be spammed like crazy.

Mr_Jord_Joe · April 2023

If you're going to remove it, remove it only from PvP, make sure they don't pull players... it's going to be a pain to remove useful things from PvE because of PvP like they did with ''Plaguebreak'', now with class things it's unacceptable... I hope ZoS doesn't reach that level...

OtarTheMad · April 2023

You can CC break it easily and the ability tickles at best at the moment. I’m not worried about it.

FantasticFreddie · April 2023

I think adding an extra second delay would make this a great pve tool (you could pre place it before pull!) and completely useless in pvp, because if you can't move in 3 seconds you low key deserve to die

Thecompton73 · April 2023

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

If you're going to remove it, remove it only from PvP, make sure they don't pull players... it's going to be a pain to remove useful things from PvE because of PvP like they did with ''Plaguebreak'', now with class things it's unacceptable... I hope ZoS doesn't reach that level...

Removing plaguebreak from PvEhad to do with PvE related concerns, it works exactly the same on players as it always has. It gets really old reading PvEr's blaming every nerf on PvP.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · April 2023

Pvp ballance keep buchering pve so its only fitting that pvp get buchered for the sake pve once in a while. I say keep it

Mr_Jord_Joe · April 2023

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

If you're going to remove it, remove it only from PvP, make sure they don't pull players... it's going to be a pain to remove useful things from PvE because of PvP like they did with ''Plaguebreak'', now with class things it's unacceptable... I hope ZoS doesn't reach that level...

Removing plaguebreak from PvEhad to do with PvE related concerns, it works exactly the same on players as it always has. It gets really old reading PvEr's blaming every nerf on PvP.

They took it out because they were using the set in a way that ZoS didn't want them to use it... That it would only be for PvP, doesn't justify removing it completely in PvE after so long... Expensive to buy, and acquire, now useless, ZoS didn't even want to adjust for PvE... but of course, "if the problem doesn't affect me, I don't care!"

Danse_Mayhem · April 2023

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Pvp ballance keep buchering pve so its only fitting that pvp get buchered for the sake pve once in a while. I say keep it

With all due respect, I can only hope that such an ignorant attitude does not get listened to by the developers. These proposed balance changes do not have to end up in a pointless war between PVE and PVP mains.
As someone who cares deeply about both sides of the game, I can tell you that this skill would be a minor quality of life improvement for PVE, and a total disaster for PVP.
As more recent mechanics have shown, it is more than possible for skills/sets to only affect monsters, so my proposed change would be that the pull only affects PVE enemies, and it affects actual players differently, such as a percentage based snare.

Which ever way you look at it, this is an AOE pull CC that can be placed at range… No other class has anything like this, so even if you cannot see the impact this will have on PVP, it should be clear that this still outperforms other classes ability to provide AOE Control.

OtarTheMad · April 2023

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

If you're going to remove it, remove it only from PvP, make sure they don't pull players... it's going to be a pain to remove useful things from PvE because of PvP like they did with ''Plaguebreak'', now with class things it's unacceptable... I hope ZoS doesn't reach that level...

Removing plaguebreak from PvEhad to do with PvE related concerns, it works exactly the same on players as it always has. It gets really old reading PvEr's blaming every nerf on PvP.

They took it out because they were using the set in a way that ZoS didn't want them to use it... That it would only be for PvP, doesn't justify removing it completely in PvE after so long... Expensive to buy, and acquire, now useless, ZoS didn't even want to adjust for PvE... but of course, "if the problem doesn't affect me, I don't care!"

Idk, it doesn’t affect the PvP community much imo so if that’s the case ZOS did a bad job. They literally nerfed it in a way where it only affects PvE.

So bombers can’t put it on guards now… they’ll adjust and it’ll still be used.

StarOfElyon · April 2023

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Proposed morph of the skill ; Imperfect Ring

Dark convergence was the single worst set that was ever introduced to ESO. Anyone who remembers the double pull, massive damage BS will remember that PVP immediately went to *** overnight when that came out.
The nerfs to that set have been a good choice - Only one pull, less explosion damage, and a large cool-down. 25 seconds on that set is reasonable and means it needs to be used situationally and not spammed…

But now we are getting a class skill that does the same thing… With no cool-down at all?? For clarity, this isn’t a 5pc set which requires build investment, it’s a single slot on the bar for any role, which can be spammed. This is a TERRIBLE idea and will catapult PVP into that god awful state it was in where 9/10 people were using dark convergence.

Please ZOS rethink this morph. Adding a no cool-down version of the most ridiculous proc set the game has ever seen, as a skill is going to be awful for pvp.

Exactly. How could anyone hear the months of pleading for dark convergence to be removed and think, we should add more mechanics like dark convergence. This is an abhorrent, tone-deaf addition to the game.

StarOfElyon · April 2023

OtarTheMad wrote: »

You can CC break it easily and the ability tickles at best at the moment. I’m not worried about it.

One of the big problems with DC was that it disrupted the flow of combat. It was so disruptive and trolly. As I have said many times, something that impactful to everyone in the area should have always been an ultimate. Not a skill or a set bonus.

EramTheLiar · April 2023

If it'll be that useful to tanks in PvE and that disruptive to PvP overall, just make it "monsters only" like they do for some damage buffs.

Necrotech_Master · April 2023

how exactly would this be to any other pull ability outside of dark convergence?

rush of agony, the vateshran 1h/shield, both do aoe pulls as well

dark convergence and rush of agony are the only ones though that dont apply cc immunity from the actual pull

StarOfElyon · April 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

how exactly would this be to any other pull ability outside of dark convergence?

rush of agony, the vateshran 1h/shield, both do aoe pulls as well

dark convergence and rush of agony are the only ones though that dont apply cc immunity from the actual pull

I hardly see anyone use those sets in pvp.

acastanza_ESO · April 2023

The simple solution is that this shouldn't be able to pull players. Maybe apply a snare or something, but pull, big nope. Giving an OP proc set as a class skill is a <self snip> no.

McMasterx · April 2023

EramTheLiar wrote: »

If it'll be that useful to tanks in PvE and that disruptive to PvP overall, just make it "monsters only" like they do for some damage buffs.

Dont even need to go that far, they can straight up make sets only work in pvp and not pve
https://eso-hub.com/en/sets/rallying-cry

Combine that "only when BS is active" with this other ability to have a dual 5pc proc condition. https://eso-sets.com/set/coldharbours-favorite

katorga · April 2023

Hah hah hah...

Skill based Dark Convergence, a 100K shield that reflects the damage back for 10s....

alternatelder · April 2023

Omfg, not this crap again.

OtarTheMad · April 2023

StarOfElyon wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

You can CC break it easily and the ability tickles at best at the moment. I’m not worried about it.

One of the big problems with DC was that it disrupted the flow of combat. It was so disruptive and trolly. As I have said many times, something that impactful to everyone in the area should have always been an ultimate. Not a skill or a set bonus.

You guys really got to start to learn counters instead of always going to ZOS to make one for you. I truly thought I’d never say that but I got hit by this ability a good amount during BGs and I have to say it was easy to counter and the damage wasn’t bad at all, not really noticeable. Damage is real low on Arcanist atm. We will have to see what Week 3 patch notes do, since Week 3 starts the balancing from feedback but this ability is NOT one I fear in PvP even slightly. It’s like fearing Soul Trap or Entropy with a breakable pull.

If you haven’t tested already I’d say try to and maybe get with a friend and have them do this ability to you, test it. Abilities can always look strong on paper but in game they just work so different.

Necrotech_Master · April 2023

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

how exactly would this be to any other pull ability outside of dark convergence?

rush of agony, the vateshran 1h/shield, both do aoe pulls as well

dark convergence and rush of agony are the only ones though that dont apply cc immunity from the actual pull

I hardly see anyone use those sets in pvp.

vateshran no for sure, but rush of agony is definitely used, and its way way less visible than either the vateshran or dark convergence

Danse_Mayhem · April 2023

@the battlegrounds comment. You’re missing the point.
The skill damage for this could be zero, but the AOE pull means ulti dumps which can’t be avoided.

Previous to these pull sets, ulti dumps needed to be coordinated and set up with patience and good positioning. The pull sets allow this to be done anywhere and spammed, meaning that group v group fights usually just end with the same way every time.
At least rushing agony has the downside of needing to gap close into the mix, and at least dark convergence now has the long cool-down.
They are also 5pc sets, meaning you miss a damage or defence set to invest in that combo.
A single skill on a bar is much less build investment, and it can be spammed with no cool-down, and can be cast at full range… The damage of the skill is irrelevant. It’s the fact that it disrupts the flow of combat, and will result in every fight being a pull fest like when DC first came out.

Many fights would even be slower paced, because of how effective DC was, everyone just used this as their damage set, so with everyone being pulled non stop, everyone was basically CC immune the whole time and stun/burst combos were much less possible.

Honestly in the nicest way possible, please don’t chime into this thread talking about easy counters and the PVE usage if you cannot remember how terrible PVP was when these pull sets first came out. You seriously can’t imagine how bad this will be for cyro.

TechMaybeHic · April 2023

Im thinking this is the stuff they needed in game for the new class given the timeline they say they've been working on it and couldn't do until now

OtarTheMad · April 2023

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

@the battlegrounds comment. You’re missing the point.
The skill damage for this could be zero, but the AOE pull means ulti dumps which can’t be avoided.

Previous to these pull sets, ulti dumps needed to be coordinated and set up with patience and good positioning. The pull sets allow this to be done anywhere and spammed, meaning that group v group fights usually just end with the same way every time.
At least rushing agony has the downside of needing to gap close into the mix, and at least dark convergence now has the long cool-down.
They are also 5pc sets, meaning you miss a damage or defence set to invest in that combo.
A single skill on a bar is much less build investment, and it can be spammed with no cool-down, and can be cast at full range… The damage of the skill is irrelevant. It’s the fact that it disrupts the flow of combat, and will result in every fight being a pull fest like when DC first came out.

Many fights would even be slower paced, because of how effective DC was, everyone just used this as their damage set, so with everyone being pulled non stop, everyone was basically CC immune the whole time and stun/burst combos were much less possible.

Honestly in the nicest way possible, please don’t chime into this thread talking about easy counters and the PVE usage if you cannot remember how terrible PVP was when these pull sets first came out. You seriously can’t imagine how bad this will be for cyro.

This isn't the only ability that pulls in this game, so even if ZOS changed this you'd still have Unrelenting Grip, Frozen Device which you can have 3 of, immobilizes and gives Major Maim and Silver Leash which pulls and reduces movement speed. I know this one is an area but I never had an issue CC breaking it and dodging away. My biggest issue was magicka sustain honestly, I had to be Breton and use at least one reduce spell cost glyph with infused trait on jewelry to have a chance in fights.

It's still early in the PTS and Arcanist has bigger issues than this ability.

Oakiyo · April 2023

I agree with the initial message, this thing needs to be only usable in PVM. If you think the Arcanist is underwhelming, wait to see those guys pulling you with a no cooldown DC skill between two 70k tooltip AOE jesus beam heal on them and all people
in front. Which cost near to 0 with 2 infused reduce cost glyph by the way.

Necrotech_Master · April 2023

Oakiyo wrote: »

I agree with the initial message, this thing needs to be only usable in PVM. If you think the Arcanist is underwhelming, wait to see those guys pulling you with a no cooldown DC skill between two 70k tooltip AOE jesus beam heal on them and all people
in front. Which cost near to 0 with 2 infused reduce cost glyph by the way.

even if it tries to pull on every cast, it most certainly will apply cc immunity, which is minimum of like 7-10 sec before the pull would affect you again, which would instead of giving 1 person cc immunity, just give a whole group cc immunity (unlike dark convergence or rush of agony which all pull and do not apply cc immunity)

Danse_Mayhem · April 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oakiyo wrote: »

I agree with the initial message, this thing needs to be only usable in PVM. If you think the Arcanist is underwhelming, wait to see those guys pulling you with a no cooldown DC skill between two 70k tooltip AOE jesus beam heal on them and all people
in front. Which cost near to 0 with 2 infused reduce cost glyph by the way.

even if it tries to pull on every cast, it most certainly will apply cc immunity, which is minimum of like 7-10 sec before the pull would affect you again, which would instead of giving 1 person cc immunity, just give a whole group cc immunity (unlike dark convergence or rush of agony which all pull and do not apply cc immunity)

Dark convergence does apply CC immunity. This also isn’t the issue with this set. It’s the constant pulling on CC cool-down. Needing to break free and rebuff every 6 seconds because this thing is everywhere will make for extremely slow paced combat - just like when DC first came out.

StarOfElyon · April 2023

OtarTheMad wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

You can CC break it easily and the ability tickles at best at the moment. I’m not worried about it.

One of the big problems with DC was that it disrupted the flow of combat. It was so disruptive and trolly. As I have said many times, something that impactful to everyone in the area should have always been an ultimate. Not a skill or a set bonus.

You guys really got to start to learn counters instead of always going to ZOS to make one for you. I truly thought I’d never say that but I got hit by this ability a good amount during BGs and I have to say it was easy to counter and the damage wasn’t bad at all, not really noticeable. Damage is real low on Arcanist atm. We will have to see what Week 3 patch notes do, since Week 3 starts the balancing from feedback but this ability is NOT one I fear in PvP even slightly. It’s like fearing Soul Trap or Entropy with a breakable pull.

If you haven’t tested already I’d say try to and maybe get with a friend and have them do this ability to you, test it. Abilities can always look strong on paper but in game they just work so different.

I know what to do about it. It's much easier to deal with now than it was when it was introduced. But it can still be disruptive. I'm over fighting someone and trying to clinch a kill when someone just lazily tosses out a rune to trigger DC, yanking me and everyone else out of position. Lazy, uninspired, crutch mechanic that rewards the least amount of effort.

Necrotech_Master · April 2023

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oakiyo wrote: »

I agree with the initial message, this thing needs to be only usable in PVM. If you think the Arcanist is underwhelming, wait to see those guys pulling you with a no cooldown DC skill between two 70k tooltip AOE jesus beam heal on them and all people
in front. Which cost near to 0 with 2 infused reduce cost glyph by the way.

even if it tries to pull on every cast, it most certainly will apply cc immunity, which is minimum of like 7-10 sec before the pull would affect you again, which would instead of giving 1 person cc immunity, just give a whole group cc immunity (unlike dark convergence or rush of agony which all pull and do not apply cc immunity)

Dark convergence does apply CC immunity. This also isn’t the issue with this set. It’s the constant pulling on CC cool-down. Needing to break free and rebuff every 6 seconds because this thing is everywhere will make for extremely slow paced combat - just like when DC first came out.

the part i mentioned, the pull, does not apply cc immunity from dark convergence (as the set also does a stun 1 sec after the pull this does apply cc immunity)

the major issue with stuff like rush of agony and dark convergence is that the pull does not apply cc immunity, leading to potentially multiple pulls from these sets in a short time frame