Minor Heroism Potions - too powerful?

maxjapank · April 2023

While being extremely expensive to make, these potions are a bit strong, don't you think? According to the rules of minor vs. major buffs, they would fall under the 45 second rule being a minor buff. However, minor heroism is a pretty strong buff, especially when you can get 100% uptime from just popping a potion. It might be time to reconsider the length of this potion.

Alpheu5 · April 2023

It's not "nerf it by 66%" strong. And yea, its ingredients aren't exactly easy to come by so the effects had better be worth using them for. 10 ultimate every 45 seconds would not be worth it.

maxjapank · April 2023

[quote="Alpheu5;c-7854699" And yea, its ingredients aren't exactly easy to come by so the effects had better be worth using them for. [/quote]

"Having gold" should not be a reason that something powerful exists.

Alpheu5 · April 2023

What does gold have to do with dragons? You have to kill dragons for a chance of getting rheum.

maxjapank · April 2023

Alpheu5 wrote: »

What does gold have to do with dragons? You have to kill dragons for a chance of getting rheum.

Sure you can farm mats yourself. But most farm them to sell. So having gold makes the mats easier for some. Nevertheless, there is a reason that these pots are the most used pots when pushing content. They are also widely used in pvp. They are exceptionally strong and they could be reined in a bit.

spartaxoxo · April 2023

They are fine. I am tired of nerfs. Buff other stuff up.

Munkfist · April 2023

High cost, high reward. I think their power is very much in line with their material cost.

They are an option open to anyone willing to put in time, and not always the best in many different scenarios.

maxjapank · April 2023

Munkfist wrote: »

High cost, high reward. I think their power is very much in line with their material cost.

But you are basically acknowledging that the potions are quite powerful. Might they not be a bit too powerful?

joergino · April 2023

yet another nerf thread

Munkfist · April 2023

maxjapank wrote: »

Munkfist wrote: »

High cost, high reward. I think their power is very much in line with their material cost.

But you are basically acknowledging that the potions are quite powerful. Might they not be a bit too powerful?

They're powerful, sure. As are Weapon/Spell Power Potions, as well as Immovable Potions, and Invisible Potions.

Each potion has it's place. Do I think that Heroism potions are overpowered? Not in the least. They are situational at best, and have the highest cost of any potion that isn't an Aetherial or Mythic Ambrosia.

SerafinaWaterstar · April 2023

Why are they too powerful?
What do you find the ‘problem’?!

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · April 2023

Alpheu5 wrote: »

What does gold have to do with dragons? You have to kill dragons for a chance of getting rheum.

Yeah but you can buy the mats from guild traders. I haven't killed a single dragon and these are the mats I have.

maxjapank · April 2023

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Why are they too powerful?
What do you find the ‘problem’?!

Minor heroism only exists in 3 places outside of potions, unless you are specifically wearing a set for it. It is strong because it give you much faster access to your most powerful abilities - ultimate. Those 3 places are are not full uptime, but have a cooldown, unless you are using Heroic Slash every 15 seconds.

Getting heroism with potions, along with normal gain through light attacks and class passives just gives you an insane amount of ultimate uptime which probably shouldn't be regenerated so much. It's a bit over kill.

maxjapank · April 2023

Munkfist wrote: »

They're powerful, sure. As are Weapon/Spell Power Potions, as well as Immovable Potions, and Invisible Potions.

Immovable potions and Invisible potions only last 15 seconds as they are so powerful. Heroism pots should be treated equally, not have a full 45 second uptime.

Grizzbeorn · April 2023

maxjapank wrote: »

Might they not be a bit too powerful?

No.
That is what people keep telling you.
Their material cost justifies their strength.

Treeshka · April 2023

They only work best if your tank provides Igneous Weapons and also they are not cheap. You literally burn gold during raid if you use them. So yes powerful and hopefully they will not change them like they did with lingering health potions.

WrathOfInnos · April 2023

Minor Heroism is overrated. It is a far weaker buff than other potions buffs like Major Sorcery or Major Savagery (both in the range of 8-10% DPS increase). Heroism potions are only interesting because there are other sources of the superior potion buffs, and it allows pushing scores a little higher.

Heroism just lets you cast ultimates 15-20% more often, but ults themselves only account for approx 5-10% of damage done, so it is around 1-2% DPS for any individual using these expensive potions. It can be slightly better than that on support builds since their ult affects the whole group (Warhorn, Colossus, sometimes even Barrier). I'd say it's a stretch to call Heroism pots overpowered. If anything they should be more available, maybe using alternate ingredients.

jm42 · April 2023

maxjapank wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

What does gold have to do with dragons? You have to kill dragons for a chance of getting rheum.

Sure you can farm mats yourself. But most farm them to sell. So having gold makes the mats easier for some. Nevertheless, there is a reason that these pots are the most used pots when pushing content. They are also widely used in pvp. They are exceptionally strong and they could be reined in a bit.

so let's make everything not sellabe so ppl have to farm diagrams and mats themselves. or do you want to nerf only the things you can not buy? why not corn flowers?

maxjapank · April 2023

Treeshka wrote: »

They only work best if your tank provides Igneous Weapons and also they are not cheap. You literally burn gold during raid if you use them. So yes powerful and hopefully they will not change them like they did with lingering health potions.

Lingering health potions were a bit too powerful in pvp. That's why they were changed. All I'm saying is that a 45 sec duration on minor heroism is a bit too much considering it is hard for most players to achieve that anywhere else. It should be less duration.

Heelie · April 2023

I think zos noticed they have added more sources in almost every patch this last year, truth is that it's not super powerful outside of a few builds, in pvp corrosive DKs, in PVE a Pillager user, DDs using this in pve are burning 4000 gold / min for very little gain, not what I would call OP. But ZOS are adding more sources, so obviously they noticed the trend.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 2023

maxjapank wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Why are they too powerful?
What do you find the ‘problem’?!

Minor heroism only exists in 3 places outside of potions, unless you are specifically wearing a set for it. It is strong because it give you much faster access to your most powerful abilities - ultimate. Those 3 places are are not full uptime, but have a cooldown, unless you are using Heroic Slash every 15 seconds.

Getting heroism with potions, along with normal gain through light attacks and class passives just gives you an insane amount of ultimate uptime which probably shouldn't be regenerated so much. It's a bit over kill.

You can't say that it only exists in 3 places and not count the sets. Sets are just as much a legitimate source of a buff as potions.

The potions are either extremely situational (you want more ult gen but don't want to use any of the other ways to get it) or only for min/maxing in very serious scenarios (score pushing, trifectas, PvP tournaments). It also means you can't use other potions, which is a no go for certain classes like Necro that lack in bar space and need their potions for buffs.

Dr_Con · April 2023

You miss out on something else when you use a heroism pot. Is it OP? The answer is subjective, it might be essential for certain builds to function at high levels.

XSTRONG · April 2023

The potion/mats are expensive asf so No this potion is fine

KiltMaster · April 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They are fine. I am tired of nerfs. Buff other stuff up.

yes this!!! Things can be balanced without nerfing all the good things

re: templar, plaguebreak ... just those two that I'm specifically upset about, but there are definitely SO MANY things that get nerfed every patch

Alpheu5 · April 2023

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

What does gold have to do with dragons? You have to kill dragons for a chance of getting rheum.

Yeah but you can buy the mats from guild traders. I haven't killed a single dragon and these are the mats I have.

And where do you think the people that originally sold that rheum got it from? Your ability to buy anything from another player doesn't change its acquisition source and definitely shouldn't be used as evidence that it's easy to obtain.

"Lower the bonuses of golden gear because I can buy Dreugh Wax from pretty much any guild trader" is an absurd argument.

maxjapank · April 2023

"CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You can't say that it only exists in 3 places and not count the sets. Sets are just as much a legitimate source of a buff as potions.

Please re-read what you quoted. I did mention the sets. Nevertheless, 45 secs of full uptime of heroism for a potion is a long time. It would be better treated like invisibility and immovable.

Vulkunne · April 2023

They are a luxury item useful in very specific situations and run up the potion timer so another pot can't be used during that time. They should be just as they are.

YandereGirlfriend · April 2023

You're looking at this the wrong way.

The problem with Alchemy is that the combinations are limited and that most combinations are simply too weak to justify using.

So instead ask for buffs to the other 75% of under-performing combinations as well as for a liberalization of the system across-the-board.

Jaimeh · April 2023

I think they are fine as is, for one thing you have to make up for your sorcery/brutality in other ways or be in an optimized group that can provide it, and secondly, the materials are really tedious to farm and expensive to buy, so it makes sense to use the pots only in very organized play for PvE where it would make a difference (and specific moments in PvP), otherwise it'd be extremely wasteful given how costly they are.

olsborg · April 2023

The entire alchemy system should get revamped, it wasnt rly touched since the hybridization happened and there are tons of potions etc that are totally useless. Also they could expand on it, giving potions minor brutality buffs etc etc, more minor (and major) buffs to them would be a welcome addition, it has so much untapped potential.

maxjapank · April 2023

Well, I keep seeing the same arguments. Some saying that are not that powerful. And others are saying that for the price, they should be as powerful as they are - which is really saying that they are powerful.