Dk vs Necro pvp

Greek_Hellspawn · April 2023

Offensive wise playing dk is like cheating when compared to necro.
Dk has strong dots/ulti/spammble/stun.

Necro only has blastbones, it lacks:
Cheap burst ulti
Strong single target dot
Reliable on demand stun
Execute
Viable spammable

I don't want dk nerfed, but necromancer definitely needs some tweaking, there are lots of threads with buffs proposed about necro.

SeveN085 · April 2023

Makes me wonder, was it hybridization alone that had turned the balance upside down or were there also some nerfs for necro along the way? Last time I pvp'ed was around november 2020 which was Markarth patch(proc meta) and then I took 2 years break from the game. Stamdk was the weakest class while stamcro was considered p2w back then.

Necrotech_Master · April 2023

SeveN085 wrote: »

Makes me wonder, was it hybridization alone that had turned the balance upside down or were there also some nerfs for necro along the way? Last time I pvp'ed was around november 2020 which was Markarth patch(proc meta) and then I took 2 years break from the game. Stamdk was the weakest class while stamcro was considered p2w back then.

i think its mostly nerfs, either on gear sets or on the class itself, or inherent balance problems within the class

necromancer pets cannot proc gear sets (they have at least 3 skills which revolve around these pets)
necromancer skull spammable does not feel impactful, and a bit slower than other options
necromancer has a passive that boosts dots, yet they only have like maybe 2 class skills which are dots, one of which is a dmg tether

other changes that nerfed necromancers was bash changes (hurt the bashcro style), and the more recent change to harmony + the nerf to grave robber (hurt the burst style), the U35 overall dot nerfs (which actually ended up nerfing stuff like the skeletal mage/archer which already had a 2 sec tick rate and fairly low dmg, but they still got like a 50-60% dmg nerf too)

the only semi viable necromancer setup for awhile was a harbinger block tank because they could make people kill themselves with harbinger dmg during goliath ult which was really prevalent for about a year or so, but pretty much never see this anymore lol

Ankael07 · April 2023

Nerfs to major buffs and debuffs also heavily affected Necro. Necro had near constant uptime on major defile and protection. Major vulnerability from Colossus also made huge difference in big battles

Tessitura · April 2023

Necro needs a redesign honestly. They didnt give it basic pvp tools in exchange for access to major buffs and debuffs. No stuns or control but you could apply really powerful buffs and debuffs and survive what a lot of others couldnt. They didnt directly nerf necro but they destroyed the things it was designed to bring to the table and never compensated the class for what it lost. So it slowly got worse and worse over time.

I think the class mechanics are good and ever class should have a mechanic it has to deal with. It helps balance things and breaks up the spammy nature of the game. Burst rotations would take setup and so more meaningful counterplay becomes possible. But since Necro is the only one that has to deal with that they suffer. This was made up for with its potential reward for successful operation but now they don't have that. They just finished taking the last thing they had too in terms of pvp. No more bombing.

IncultaWolf · April 2023

Yes, they desperately need buffs, mainly major brutality/sorcery included in their toolkit. That would be a good start to making this class playable in pvp again

Melzo · April 2023

Necro will win dk. Definitely. No options. The necromancer has a skeleton archer. It's not an equal fight. Two for one.

Melzo · April 2023

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Yes, they desperately need buffs, mainly major brutality/sorcery included in their toolkit. That would be a good start to making this class playable in pvp again

And what will these two buffs give me?? I drink a potion that gives similar buffs. I use the potion in both pvp and pve content. What's the point of giving these buffs when you can get them in other ways? There are spells from other skills. There are sets and potions. Necromancer is the only class that does not give major and minor buffs to allies. A class that has no damage in pvp. The Necromancer is the worst teammate for any class.

LukosCreyden · April 2023

"PVP Necromancer isn't real and it can't hurt you."

(Me, an ex-magcro main, tears streaming down my face): "Yes, I know."

Xarc · April 2023

Necro skills are disapointing.

I wish I could revive npcs and animals like zombies to fight for me.

Actually I dont feel like being real necro with bones coming from nowhere, i just feel like playing knucklebones

CameraBeardThePirate · April 2023

Melzo wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Yes, they desperately need buffs, mainly major brutality/sorcery included in their toolkit. That would be a good start to making this class playable in pvp again

And what will these two buffs give me?? I drink a potion that gives similar buffs. I use the potion in both pvp and pve content. What's the point of giving these buffs when you can get them in other ways? There are spells from other skills. There are sets and potions. Necromancer is the only class that does not give major and minor buffs to allies. A class that has no damage in pvp. The Necromancer is the worst teammate for any class.

Those buffs in Necros class kit means they'd actually be able to use their class abilities... Necro absolutely needs these buffs in their class kit because sure, you can slot non-class abilities for those buffs but then why bother playing a necro at all if half your abilities are outsourced?

NordSwordnBoard · April 2023

A lot of it is numbers, like Defile 30% reduction dropped to 16% and same with Major Vulnerability 30% gone. One can argue about Vulnerability being unique and P2W at the time, sure. Defile was OK at a high number imo considering the sources were limited. Pairing major and minor defile used to be impactful but now its a joke.
Much of Necro class skill impact was based in these % value buffs/debuffs. If they were unique to the class instead of named it may be OK to this day because you could tweak Necro without everyone else feeling it.

Melzo · April 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Yes, they desperately need buffs, mainly major brutality/sorcery included in their toolkit. That would be a good start to making this class playable in pvp again

And what will these two buffs give me?? I drink a potion that gives similar buffs. I use the potion in both pvp and pve content. What's the point of giving these buffs when you can get them in other ways? There are spells from other skills. There are sets and potions. Necromancer is the only class that does not give major and minor buffs to allies. A class that has no damage in pvp. The Necromancer is the worst teammate for any class.

Those buffs in Necros class kit means they'd actually be able to use their class abilities... Necro absolutely needs these buffs in their class kit because sure, you can slot non-class abilities for those buffs but then why bother playing a necro at all if half your abilities are outsourced?

I see no point in adding these buffs to a necromancer. You have many sources of these buffs. This allows you to make unique builds. Why does a necromancer have to be like everyone else?? Will the necromancer get these buffs and what will it change? The necromancer will get stronger?? You made a reasonable argument for playing with necromancer skills, but out of six skills, only one does enough damage. And even about blastobones, one can argue. He's too predictable. He can be stunned. He runs for a long time. If the enemy has an evasion buff, then the damage of the blastbones is the same as the standard spam ability. If you compete with the NB in a 1v1 fight and remove the delay on blastbones, then the NB will still win, since the NB deals 4-7 (crit) thousand damage from spam ability, and the necromancer by 3.5 - 5 (crit))) .

Urzigurumash · April 2023

Tessitura wrote: »

Necro needs a redesign honestly.

People used to say the same thing about DK, and we were ridiculed for suggesting that DK wasn't as weak compared to Necro as everybody said. Few small tune-ups and DK is on top and Necro is at the bottom.

It doesn't take much to turn things around. I agree with all of your other points, but "redesign" is a bit too strong of a word.

@Melzo Mechanically, better access to Death Knell is the particular reason I'd like Major Brutality and/or Savagery as a passive effect on some Gravelord skills. Thematically, it's absurd that Necro is dependent on the Fighter and Mage Guilds skills when they shouldn't even be allowed in the Guilds, right?

Anyhow I'm a DK main who mostly plays Necro since DK became the bandwagon 2 button noob class - I write much about how the nerf to HP Regen and the rescaling of Undeath engendered a global 13% buff to Flame Damage, in addition to everything else described in this thread I suspect this had something to do with the two classes trading places. Read more about it here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/628489/dk-needs-a-13-damage-nerf#latest

I've tried it all on sCro lately, 2h, DW, Bow. By far the Master's DW and Maarselok combo works the best to bring down DKs. But, it still doesn't work very well, nothing does. From my view DK in its present state may be the 2nd most OP spec of all time, 2nd to the years-long domination of MagSorc.

Although at launch MagCro was pretty over the top, I suspect some of its gradual loss of power has to do with players reading its telegraphs better. Surely we all recall when MagCro launched that people actually used Bone Totem? That used to get dropped on doors all the time and was effective before people became familiar with it.

Melzo · April 2023

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

Necro needs a redesign honestly.

People used to say the same thing about DK, and we were ridiculed for suggesting that DK wasn't as weak compared to Necro as everybody said. Few small tune-ups and DK is on top and Necro is at the bottom.

It doesn't take much to turn things around. I agree with all of your other points, but "redesign" is a bit too strong of a word.

@Melzo Mechanically, better access to Death Knell is the particular reason I'd like Major Brutality and/or Savagery as a passive effect on some Gravelord skills. Thematically, it's absurd that Necro is dependent on the Fighter and Mage Guilds skills when they shouldn't even be allowed in the Guilds, right?

Anyhow I'm a DK main who mostly plays Necro since DK became the bandwagon 2 button noob class - I write much about how the nerf to HP Regen and the rescaling of Undeath engendered a global 13% buff to Flame Damage, in addition to everything else described in this thread I suspect this had something to do with the two classes trading places. Read more about it here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/628489/dk-needs-a-13-damage-nerf#latest

I've tried it all on sCro lately, 2h, DW, Bow. By far the Master's DW and Maarselok combo works the best to bring down DKs. But, it still doesn't work very well, nothing does. From my view DK in its present state may be the 2nd most OP spec of all time, 2nd to the years-long domination of MagSorc.

Although at launch MagCro was pretty over the top, I suspect some of its gradual loss of power has to do with players reading its telegraphs better. Surely we all recall when MagCro launched that people actually used Bone Totem? That used to get dropped on doors all the time and was effective before people became familiar with it.

I agree that it is enough to change one skill and the necromancer can become stronger in the meta. But after that, you will not play as you want, but as the meta allows. Some changes in passive skills will make it a really strong class, but this only applies to a certain build. You made an argument with a Dk, but for a Dk, his skills were always relevant, but for a necromancer, they were relevant ?? Right now, from the first line of skills, only blastbones are useful. One offensive skill is not a class. A class is a whole mechanic of various skills but we see that the whole first line of skills is useless. If a class has half of the skills unworthy to stand on the panel, then what are we talking about?? Ultimates are too expensive. The necromancer's defense is based on healing but it's broken. If in a 1v1 battle you can survive, then in a mass battle your spirit heals a random player and 1200 every two seconds are divided into your group. The mortol koil and the spirit should theoretically keep you and your ally alive, but they do save the necromancer himself. Necromancer does not have normal minor and major buffs. Playing as a DK, I prefer absolutely any class as a partner except for the necromancer. The necromancer survives on his own, and you won’t get help from him.

Urzigurumash · April 2023

You're not wrong about any of that, all I mean to say is some adjustments to numbers and a few more named buffs/debuffs and the class could be in good shape. For sure lowering the Ult Costs would be nice.

My point with my first statement in this thread was people used to say DK had a mechanically non-functional kit. They were wrong.

Urzigurumash · April 2023

Melzo wrote: »

You made an argument with a Dk, but for a Dk, his skills were always relevant

I can give an example from DK about what I mean. As long as I can remember I frontbarred Flames of Oblivion for Savagery, but if you look at popular streamer videos about sDK any time prior to the recent buffs to DK you will see it was more popular to slot Camo Hunter. I guess people found the small Weapon Damage bonus, the rare-for-a-DK chance of proccing Minor Berserk, and the healing power of a backbarred Cauterize to outperform the damage done by Flames of Oblivion. (Surely not for the decloak, we had a better decloak in Volatile Armor)

So Flames of Oblivion gained an extra projectile, World in Ruin was revised to also buff Single Target, Seething Fury and Molten Whip had their numbers improved (the mechanical change to Molten Whip happened years before DK became OP), Vampirism became ubiquitous, and Coagulating Dragonblood was buffed and then hybridized, so there was no longer a need for Cauterize on sDK.

No mechanics were changed, just numbers. DK became the best class, FoO became the best, or 2nd best, damage skill.

One of the best skills for the S+ tier class is a skill that wasn't even used by popular streamers prior to just a few numbers being changed. (the mechanical change to Molten Whip did increase that morph's popularity at the time, but it wasn't until the revision to World in Ruin that it worked to elevate DK in comparative power rankings)

Make Graveyard's Breach sticky. Make Totem's Stun proc after 1 second. Give Savagery to Siphon. Buff Necrotic's Ult per Corpse. Etc. etc.

Of course from any PvP perspective some of our ideas for Necro are probably too strong for PvE. But you get my point.