It's not just trials. The megathread I was in also ended with the notion that HA builds are negatively affecting 4 man content.WinterHeart626 wrote: »- essentially, what it’s boiled down to, from my understanding is veteran trials should be exclusively for the elite players who want to brag.
colossalvoids wrote: »It might have everything to do with meaningfulness though, as people want their achievements and progress to matter again.
colossalvoids wrote: »Not sure I've ever read anything about exclusivity in any of those threads. It might have everything to do with meaningfulness though, as people want their achievements and progress to matter again. It's also have nothing to do with "elites", as those are happily participate in it's use (though they're entitled to leave legitimate feedback of how insane the item still is in some scenarios), while midgame players that can't meet certain thresholds are feeling affected by it. It's an mmo, and when there's one single item piece that makes performance go "from 50 to 90", it's not looking particularly... Balanced? DPS alone isn't an issue as adding insane survivability akin to off-tank and denying resources mini game, which are both crucial for progression. No one cared about HA in solo content and veteran content as they've never were a "time trial" material for absolute mass of players, ones that were capable of such things had as much skill as any other player doing it any different. It's different HA builds now and reaction is obviously stronger from all flanks.
Before torches are drawn I was pro-oaken not so long ago, now just indifferent to the matter as it has nothing to do with me in particular, but can't deny it's use cases can be seen close to broken for a lot of people, especially experienced with eso's combat throughout the years and all the changes that were made because 2-3% differences. I don't remember any other item set that made me feel I'm doing something wrong and possibly bannable, bar thrassian stranglers on release (or first PTS cycle?) doing solo arenas. It's the closest I can get describing it.
Just my perspective without spitting venom around.
I, very much, doubt that is helping to direct new players to this game.... and that means that the revenue stream that upkeeps the servers, and pays the devs to create new material is taking a hit, before it even had a chance to come this way.......
As someone who did claim that HA negatively affects 4man, this is my reasoning: nearly every single pug now has at least one HA build and it feels more often than not that these people do not communicate, are “fake” healers, run ahead of tank, etc. I’ve also seen runs where it’s 4 HA sorcs. No tank, no healer, 4 HA sorc Trifecta.
So to me something is horribly wrong, but it is not the possible damage output of HA builds but rather the tankiness and “I heal, I’m tanky, I don’t need the group” ideology support.
Edit: Fake healer as in they have matriarch and that’s their heal. Hold left click and spam matriarch. It works… BETTER THAN A REAL HEALER which is concerning to me.
I think Oaken HA is more of an issue in 4man than trials.
As someone who did claim that HA negatively affects 4man, this is my reasoning: nearly every single pug now has at least one HA build and it feels more often than not that these people do not communicate, are “fake” healers, run ahead of tank, etc. I’ve also seen runs where it’s 4 HA sorcs. No tank, no healer, 4 HA sorc Trifecta.
So to me something is horribly wrong, but it is not the possible damage output of HA builds but rather the tankiness and “I heal, I’m tanky, I don’t need the group” ideology support.
Edit: Fake healer as in they have matriarch and that’s their heal. Hold left click and spam matriarch. It works… BETTER THAN A REAL HEALER which is concerning to me.
I think Oaken HA is more of an issue in 4man than trials.
As someone who did claim that HA negatively affects 4man, this is my reasoning: nearly every single pug now has at least one HA build and it feels more often than not that these people do not communicate, are “fake” healers, run ahead of tank, etc. I’ve also seen runs where it’s 4 HA sorcs. No tank, no healer, 4 HA sorc Trifecta.
So to me something is horribly wrong, but it is not the possible damage output of HA builds but rather the tankiness and “I heal, I’m tanky, I don’t need the group” ideology support.
Edit: Fake healer as in they have matriarch and that’s their heal. Hold left click and spam matriarch. It works… BETTER THAN A REAL HEALER which is concerning to me.
I think Oaken HA is more of an issue in 4man than trials.
I can think of a few reasons for that... one, they get the attitude and treatment we see in these threads.... why would they want to be all in on a team that treats them like crap?
Second, they have been gatekept out of content for so long, that they didn't learn their part in a team, and are at the learn or burn stage of the game..... trust me, a few times licking the floor and watching the Death Recap screen, usually fixes that.
Lastly, they were always bad players... and would play that way NO MATTER what build they had.....can't do much with those, except just avoid them when you can... eventually, they either get lonely and get it together, or get lonely, and go off to another game that is more conducive to their methodology.
Auldwulfe
As someone who did claim that HA negatively affects 4man, this is my reasoning: nearly every single pug now has at least one HA build and it feels more often than not that these people do not communicate, are “fake” healers, run ahead of tank, etc. I’ve also seen runs where it’s 4 HA sorcs. No tank, no healer, 4 HA sorc Trifecta.
So to me something is horribly wrong, but it is not the possible damage output of HA builds but rather the tankiness and “I heal, I’m tanky, I don’t need the group” ideology support.
Edit: Fake healer as in they have matriarch and that’s their heal. Hold left click and spam matriarch. It works… BETTER THAN A REAL HEALER which is concerning to me.
I think Oaken HA is more of an issue in 4man than trials.
I can think of a few reasons for that... one, they get the attitude and treatment we see in these threads.... why would they want to be all in on a team that treats them like crap?
Second, they have been gatekept out of content for so long, that they didn't learn their part in a team, and are at the learn or burn stage of the game..... trust me, a few times licking the floor and watching the Death Recap screen, usually fixes that.
Lastly, they were always bad players... and would play that way NO MATTER what build they had.....can't do much with those, except just avoid them when you can... eventually, they either get lonely and get it together, or get lonely, and go off to another game that is more conducive to their methodology.
Auldwulfe
Unless I’m having a bad day and am negative because of that, I’m super accommodating to people who communicate. I’ve stuck around with groups that hit like they’re using wet pool noodles because they actually talked in chat. It’s a good first impression and vibing is much more fun than just doing a dungeon. I’ve seen others do the same, even had a guildie stop mid run to craft someone brand new gear to help them out. People need to suck it up and see there’s great experiences waiting for them… if they Communicate. There’s bad ones too of course but there’s bad in every good.
And going off of that, I’m happy to explain their part (where to stand, what mechs to look out for, etc) but only if they seem like they’d be receptive to it. It is unfortunate that theres no place to actually learn that though. I actually learned where to stand off of a random youtube video I came across on accident once… thanks zos for actually having a combat tutorial /s.
I suppose at least they’re doing damage if they made their HA build correctly but I fear that their attitude WON’T change because they’re meeting dps checks and not dying.
It also concerns me how often I see in these threads HA players argue that “it’s a game”, as in endgame should be casual-friendly. As if people are going to brute force being casual through endgame. If endgame were completely casual friendly we’d have this situation all over the place and it would be miserable. Though, endgame is pretty dead maybe it’d be best if the game were completely casual and all the endgamers went somewhere else /shrug.
It's not that it's a different playstyle, it's that it's better than anything else out there in that situation while at the same time being 10x easier with the mitigation of a tank on top of it.
It's not that it's a different playstyle, it's that it's better than anything else out there in that situation while at the same time being 10x easier with the mitigation of a tank on top of it.
AND, it's completely doable without Oakensoul ..... can't fix an issue if it's constantly being diverted by a red herring.
Auldwulfe
It's not that it's a different playstyle, it's that it's better than anything else out there in that situation while at the same time being 10x easier with the mitigation of a tank on top of it.
It's not that it's a different playstyle, it's that it's better than anything else out there in that situation while at the same time being 10x easier with the mitigation of a tank on top of it.
AND, it's completely doable without Oakensoul ..... can't fix an issue if it's constantly being diverted by a red herring.
Auldwulfe
can't really get minor aegis without a trial tank set, minor protection requires you to have a skill specifically for it, same with major resolve, minor courage either requires a tank to provide it with something like yoln or again using specific sets... you can't build in the mitigation of oakensoul while playing DPS effectively but to be hones I don't care that much about that, what I do care about as you probably know from other threads I'm in is the empower, HA oakensoul compromises nothing, it has everything without losing damage, sustain, healing or mitigation, it's also unique to HA specs as people not using HAs will still have the sustain and mitigation but not so much the healing and damage.
As someone who did claim that HA negatively affects 4man, this is my reasoning: nearly every single pug now has at least one HA build and it feels more often than not that these people do not communicate, are “fake” healers, run ahead of tank, etc. I’ve also seen runs where it’s 4 HA sorcs. No tank, no healer, 4 HA sorc Trifecta.
So to me something is horribly wrong, but it is not the possible damage output of HA builds but rather the tankiness and “I heal, I’m tanky, I don’t need the group” ideology support.
Edit: Fake healer as in they have matriarch and that’s their heal. Hold left click and spam matriarch. It works… BETTER THAN A REAL HEALER which is concerning to me.
I think Oaken HA is more of an issue in 4man than trials.
I can think of a few reasons for that... one, they get the attitude and treatment we see in these threads.... why would they want to be all in on a team that treats them like crap?
Second, they have been gatekept out of content for so long, that they didn't learn their part in a team, and are at the learn or burn stage of the game..... trust me, a few times licking the floor and watching the Death Recap screen, usually fixes that.
Lastly, they were always bad players... and would play that way NO MATTER what build they had.....can't do much with those, except just avoid them when you can... eventually, they either get lonely and get it together, or get lonely, and go off to another game that is more conducive to their methodology.
Auldwulfe
Unless I’m having a bad day and am negative because of that, I’m super accommodating to people who communicate. I’ve stuck around with groups that hit like they’re using wet pool noodles because they actually talked in chat. It’s a good first impression and vibing is much more fun than just doing a dungeon. I’ve seen others do the same, even had a guildie stop mid run to craft someone brand new gear to help them out. People need to suck it up and see there’s great experiences waiting for them… if they Communicate. There’s bad ones too of course but there’s bad in every good.
And going off of that, I’m happy to explain their part (where to stand, what mechs to look out for, etc) but only if they seem like they’d be receptive to it. It is unfortunate that theres no place to actually learn that though. I actually learned where to stand off of a random youtube video I came across on accident once… thanks zos for actually having a combat tutorial /s.
I suppose at least they’re doing damage if they made their HA build correctly but I fear that their attitude WON’T change because they’re meeting dps checks and not dying.
It also concerns me how often I see in these threads HA players argue that “it’s a game”, as in endgame should be casual-friendly. As if people are going to brute force being casual through endgame. If endgame were completely casual friendly we’d have this situation all over the place and it would be miserable. Though, endgame is pretty dead maybe it’d be best if the game were completely casual and all the endgamers went somewhere else /shrug.
Thing is, as I noted, the issue isn't with one mythic, though..... and nerfing it from those that it helps, due to physical limitations is just punishing people and gatekeeping, because other people are problematic.
I have posted, several times, my build that does NOT use Oakensoul, and that is a heavy attack build, with only 3 keys, one of which you only tap once every 33 seconds that heals you about 10K to 16K every 3 seconds, while you hold the mouse button down.
It is even MORE of what the haters of Oakensoul complain about..... except it doesn't have Oakensoul.
I DELIBERATELY hamstrung it with identical weapons and bars..... just to hammer the point home......trust me, it gets even MORE dangerous, if I swap out the 2 keys on the back bar for more buff, or utility.... maybe a DOT. But, did the Hel Ra Citadel with it, and managed 37K average through....
Cloudrest was a joke -- as flipping the bar meant absolutely nothing, I had the exact same skills, and just kept going......
The problem is the synergy of Lightning Staves with empower, and HA buffing sets.....
If the religiously anti-Oakensoul people would just stop stuffing their fingers in their ears, and screaming..... we could have an adult conversation about where the real issue is.
Again, as I have said, ad nauseum, we don't see problems with Dual Wield and Oakensoul.... trust me, I tested it.... it didn't work well, at all, as the style does need flexibility that Oakensoul takes away.
Didn't work well with 2 handed, Fire Staves, or Ice Staves, either......
Yes, there was a recent posting about a bow version using it... but the ring is merely giving buffs that you only need if ALONE ... any group would provide it, and the difference it makes between having it on, and using a complete monster set, even one so simple as Slime Craw, is negligible..... but, I bet it generated a lot of clicks..... it got one from me.
It would be SO MUCH BETTER if we could have adult conversations, and actually realize that many of us want the same things...... except the gatekeepers, and they are getting louder and louder.......
Auldwulfe
It's not that it's a different playstyle, it's that it's better than anything else out there in that situation while at the same time being 10x easier with the mitigation of a tank on top of it.
AND, it's completely doable without Oakensoul ..... can't fix an issue if it's constantly being diverted by a red herring.
Auldwulfe
It's not that it's a different playstyle, it's that it's better than anything else out there in that situation while at the same time being 10x easier with the mitigation of a tank on top of it.
AND, it's completely doable without Oakensoul ..... can't fix an issue if it's constantly being diverted by a red herring.
Auldwulfe
Please show me an example of 100k+ one bar heavy attack sorc without oakensoul that will also reach similar levels of defense. We are talking about 100k DPS with 30k HP 28k resistances, and 100% uptime on self provided minor protection, aegis, mending and heroism.
It's not that it's a different playstyle, it's that it's better than anything else out there in that situation while at the same time being 10x easier with the mitigation of a tank on top of it.
AND, it's completely doable without Oakensoul ..... can't fix an issue if it's constantly being diverted by a red herring.
Auldwulfe
Please show me an example of 100k+ one bar heavy attack sorc without oakensoul that will also reach similar levels of defense. We are talking about 100k DPS with 30k HP 28k resistances, and 100% uptime on self provided minor protection, aegis, mending and heroism.
I never said 100k... which isn't even the problem, anyways --- I said about 80 to 85k which is what MOST people get with Oakensoul .... and the real issue is the live trial damage, since anybody can beat a static dummy with all the buffs, and get high numbers.....
I agreed that the HA Lightning attacks are carrying too much damage --- but I don't agree that it is Oakensoul, as you can get the same averages without... about 37K in a trial.... and do it with a slower rotation. As for defense... I would think having the equivelent of 6600 Health regen that doesn't get effected by Battle Spirit would be enough ..... as Crit Surge has a chance to heal on every tick of that heavy staff... at that point, picking any race with a health boost, and some basic bumps with food, should make you tanky enough to just endure through.... Add a potion focused on heal, and maybe add in unsnareable.... and you will not notice the rest .... defense isn't as important, directly, when you can just continuously heal through.... read up on ball groups.
However, if you really want to burst skulls... make an Imperial, put everything in stamina - even your armor glyphs... since damage under hybridization scales off the higher, regardless of which it is, and heavy attacks don't use resources, and refill you with every attack... In theory, that should boost the damage higher... haven't tried it yet, but by everything else we have, it should work..... Not saying it makes sense, but with the system, it would work.
Thing is, ad hominem attacks are not helping, because if they nerf the ring, they nerf the playerbase, and everyone loses.... and the persistent issue with the combo of HA boosting armor sets, empower, and the synergy of Lightning Staves will remain.....
Screaming about a mythic that wasn't an issue 30 days ago, and that doesn't help in PVP, and therefore only effects gatekeepers and people profiting off of carries, is NOT helping anyone......
Auldwulfe
It's not that it's a different playstyle, it's that it's better than anything else out there in that situation while at the same time being 10x easier with the mitigation of a tank on top of it.
AND, it's completely doable without Oakensoul ..... can't fix an issue if it's constantly being diverted by a red herring.
Auldwulfe
Please show me an example of 100k+ one bar heavy attack sorc without oakensoul that will also reach similar levels of defense. We are talking about 100k DPS with 30k HP 28k resistances, and 100% uptime on self provided minor protection, aegis, mending and heroism.
I never said 100k... which isn't even the problem, anyways --- I said about 80 to 85k which is what MOST people get with Oakensoul .... and the real issue is the live trial damage, since anybody can beat a static dummy with all the buffs, and get high numbers.....
I agreed that the HA Lightning attacks are carrying too much damage --- but I don't agree that it is Oakensoul, as you can get the same averages without... about 37K in a trial.... and do it with a slower rotation. As for defense... I would think having the equivelent of 6600 Health regen that doesn't get effected by Battle Spirit would be enough ..... as Crit Surge has a chance to heal on every tick of that heavy staff... at that point, picking any race with a health boost, and some basic bumps with food, should make you tanky enough to just endure through.... Add a potion focused on heal, and maybe add in unsnareable.... and you will not notice the rest .... defense isn't as important, directly, when you can just continuously heal through.... read up on ball groups.
However, if you really want to burst skulls... make an Imperial, put everything in stamina - even your armor glyphs... since damage under hybridization scales off the higher, regardless of which it is, and heavy attacks don't use resources, and refill you with every attack... In theory, that should boost the damage higher... haven't tried it yet, but by everything else we have, it should work..... Not saying it makes sense, but with the system, it would work.
Thing is, ad hominem attacks are not helping, because if they nerf the ring, they nerf the playerbase, and everyone loses.... and the persistent issue with the combo of HA boosting armor sets, empower, and the synergy of Lightning Staves will remain.....
Screaming about a mythic that wasn't an issue 30 days ago, and that doesn't help in PVP, and therefore only effects gatekeepers and people profiting off of carries, is NOT helping anyone......
Auldwulfe
I am pretty sure when person You were responding to was talking about oakensoul being better than anything else out there he/she was not talking about 80-85k DPS so Your answer about being able to do the same without oakensoul is slightly dishonest since You lowered standards just to match Your agenda. And yes I agree real trial damage is an issue and that is because in real trial while You loose almost nothing from heavy attack DPS You get lots of defense thanks to oakensoul which allows sometimes to completly ignore mechanics. That mechanic avoidance in return gives You even more DPS because other setups need to actively react to more things than oakensoul user. For example as an oakensoul user You can ignore liothis poison cone in vAS HM and continue Your rotation like it's nothing when other setups with lower defense will have to block and cause drop in their DPS and when storm heavens mechanic will start during poison cone they will be in way bigger trouble than oakensoul user since they will have to actively dodge/block/heal while moving back when oakensoul user can just move back while continuing rotation.
On a side note I must say I find it ironic that people are using argument about average player on one bar rotation doing 80-85k DPS while at the same time two bar rotations are being glorified for pulling 130k+ while average two bar player is nowhere near that value and often will be under 80-85k. Food for thought
You are looking at the issue of one bar heavy attacks oakensoul setups too one dimensionaly. It's not just lightning staff, it's not just oakensoul, it's not just empower. It's all things combined. And Your idea about nerfing either empower or lightning staves is not solving the issue completlyy because it will nerf heavy attack setups for everyone not just oakensoul users when it's only after oakensoul arrival when issues arted to occur. It would just put heavy attack setups back into obscurity. Yes lightning staves are doing lots of damage but without oakensoul heavy attack setups still need to follow the same ruleset as all the other DDs. Even as one bar users they need to keep uptimes up, and care about mechanics the same way as everyone else. Only after equiping oakensoul issues begin because when DPS of said setups stays the same they suddenly get more defense, and extremly simplified rotation with no drawbacks to it. Crit surge wont save You from high dmg hit. High health, high resistances and lot of dmg reduction will. This is why oakensoul heavy attack sorc can even withstand Z'maja one shot in vCR. You can be almost as tanky as a tank if You want and Your DPS is not taking a big hit because most of Your dmg comes from heavy attacks and most crucial offensive and buffs are provided by oakensoul so ironically desspite being a one bar setup You have a lot of flex spots.
I actually have an one bar heavy attack sorc which is a stamina oriented orc. Being stamina oriented makes this build even more ridicolous because while I am pulling same dmg as magicka based counterparts I can dodge, block and sprint way more than them and I can use vigor as my heal without the risk of running low on stam and since heavy attacks replenish magicka I will never run low on mag. Imperial sounds like an overkill. You can get additional health just by spending Your attributes differently and 6% lowered everything doesnt sound that great when You have zero sustain issues on both resources.
As I already said if heavy attacks will be nerfed than it will be hit for everyone with and without oakensoul so from playerbase perspective it would be more beneficial to solve the issue of ofense and defense that oakensoul provides at the same time. Everyone would loose if ZoS would straight up nerf heavy attack setups because there would be no alternative. Personally I would love to see a situation where oakensoul heavy attack setups would pull noticably less DPS than non oakensoul heavy attack counterparts but oakensoul would still offer noticable amount of defense. That way oakensoul would become a tool to help people to get into content but there would be still incentive to improve if they would want to reach for some higher goals. As it is right now unless You are some dedicated scorepusher or extreme two bar light attack enjoyer, in vast majority of content there is really no point into building for something else than oakensoul setup.
It's not that it's a different playstyle, it's that it's better than anything else out there in that situation while at the same time being 10x easier with the mitigation of a tank on top of it.
AND, it's completely doable without Oakensoul ..... can't fix an issue if it's constantly being diverted by a red herring.
Auldwulfe