100th valid reason to NOT nerf Oakensoul/Empower/Lightning Staff - respect player investment.

Blackbird_V · March 2023

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

Again you are missing the point of Oakensoul for many players, I can't run top tier dungeons normally with one arm but can do a reasonable job with oakensoul.

Maybe the distinction is some of us need it, while others don't?

Oh I am fully aware there are those with comorbidities, other disabilities or age factor that require/need it. However, there are those that really do not need it, but use it because of how strong it is for how little you need to do. That is the part I disagree with, and unfortunately that is down to Heavy Attack builds, particularly Empower.

Yazrz · March 2023

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

I think this is the crux. Why would utilizing a 2 bar build be "trying to learn this game". ESO is clearly stated as being able to be played in many different ways. So why should 2 bar builds be mandatory?

Some people like it, and others would prefer a different way of playing. One way is not more correct than another.

Whilst not mandatory - it can be a massive hindrance. In normal content like overland, or normal dungeons then you can get away with it for the most part, but more more recent DLC dungeons not so much. As for Veteran Dungeons and Trials, especially Veteran Trial HM's and DLC's & their Hard Modes, having access to 2 bars is a massive benefit as you can have self-heals, shields, bit more DOTs on enemies and bosses. To each their own though.

Agreed that 2 bars allow more flexibility, and honestly I would like to see more of that usage, where a second bar could be an utility bar. I.e. one bar being sufficient for DPS. (of course that would not work with oakensoul)

But to get to that point one first need to get into the raids and learn the mechanics. That is imo where the difficulty should lie, in executing the mechanics, not to have a massive hill to learn ones kit.

The DLC Trials and their Hard Modes can be a massive hill as well for those not well versed into combat mechanics.

The Craglorn Trials and even Sunspire is a good place to start. Sunspire is a pretty easy Trial where the only difficulty is really last boss Trash Add phase.

I think ZoS can DEFINITELY do more to help people understand the basics of combat. I am not sure how, but better tutorials with bar swapping, what light attacking is etc.

There are videos on it, and this one is a pretty solid and in-depth Light attack weaving guide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUEio_xwc2U
Goes really into depth with timings as well. There's addons that help with light attacking too:

Weave Delays: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2657-WeaveDelays.html
Light Attack Helper: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2048-LightAttackHelper.html
Combat Metronome: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2373-CombatMetronomeGCDTracker.html

I would like to separate the mechanics of Trials / HMs from the combat basics. The former of course can be harsh, but there is at least a progression from base game dungeons, DLC dungeons, Vet and then HMs. Trials is of course trickier as it requires another level of teamwork, and there I think nothing can replace a good guild. Those things needs to be experienced.

Regarding the combat basics, that is where I think that more diversity would be good. Some love the LA weaving, and some don't. So why can there not be builds that forgo the weaving and instead have other types of rotations?

MaleAmazon · March 2023

Honestly, I think that if an item is changed (read nerfed), this should happen:

The player should be reimbursed all the invested tempers as well as get some gold.

Now, time spent farming, you won´t get back. There´s no getting around that. And I understand the above might be seen as almost an insult. Still, IMO this should be done.

Thing is, the nerfing really disproportionally affects lower level / poorer (moneywise) players. For a rich player with hundreds of thousands or even millions of in-game gold, the investment is merely an annoyance a lot of the time. But for a lower level player, they might have put in a big investment in their time, spent all their money on buying a set item, getting gold tempers etc, only to see their coveted set be nerfed into the ground. I imagine that can be incredibly disheartening, and even cause a player to leave.

The least they can do, what with the constant nerfing and changing of sets, changing a skill so it does something completely different than when the player first chose it, and so on, is reimburse players for the inconvenience and sometimes outright harm, caused.

Blackbird_V · March 2023

Yazrz wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

I think this is the crux. Why would utilizing a 2 bar build be "trying to learn this game". ESO is clearly stated as being able to be played in many different ways. So why should 2 bar builds be mandatory?

Some people like it, and others would prefer a different way of playing. One way is not more correct than another.

Whilst not mandatory - it can be a massive hindrance. In normal content like overland, or normal dungeons then you can get away with it for the most part, but more more recent DLC dungeons not so much. As for Veteran Dungeons and Trials, especially Veteran Trial HM's and DLC's & their Hard Modes, having access to 2 bars is a massive benefit as you can have self-heals, shields, bit more DOTs on enemies and bosses. To each their own though.

Agreed that 2 bars allow more flexibility, and honestly I would like to see more of that usage, where a second bar could be an utility bar. I.e. one bar being sufficient for DPS. (of course that would not work with oakensoul)

But to get to that point one first need to get into the raids and learn the mechanics. That is imo where the difficulty should lie, in executing the mechanics, not to have a massive hill to learn ones kit.

The DLC Trials and their Hard Modes can be a massive hill as well for those not well versed into combat mechanics.

The Craglorn Trials and even Sunspire is a good place to start. Sunspire is a pretty easy Trial where the only difficulty is really last boss Trash Add phase.

I think ZoS can DEFINITELY do more to help people understand the basics of combat. I am not sure how, but better tutorials with bar swapping, what light attacking is etc.

There are videos on it, and this one is a pretty solid and in-depth Light attack weaving guide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUEio_xwc2U
Goes really into depth with timings as well. There's addons that help with light attacking too:

Weave Delays: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2657-WeaveDelays.html
Light Attack Helper: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2048-LightAttackHelper.html
Combat Metronome: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2373-CombatMetronomeGCDTracker.html

I would like to separate the mechanics of Trials / HMs from the combat basics. The former of course can be harsh, but there is at least a progression from base game dungeons, DLC dungeons, Vet and then HMs. Trials is of course trickier as it requires another level of teamwork, and there I think nothing can replace a good guild. Those things needs to be experienced.

Regarding the combat basics, that is where I think that more diversity would be good. Some love the LA weaving, and some don't. So why can there not be builds that forgo the weaving and instead have other types of rotations?

Unfortunately that would be down to ZoS' core combat values, here's a quote from the U35 Deep Dive:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Active Combat
We believe combat is more engaging when you are on the move and continuously taking action. Battles should be exhilarating, with threats and opportunities coming fast and you feeling empowered to respond in kind. In any given moment you should have options for reacting to your opponents and shouldn't be held back by long waits between actions. This requires controls to be responsive and consistent so you feel connected to your character and in control of the outcomes of your battles.
Block, Roll Dodge, and Bash/Interrupt are not constrained by the global cooldown

No ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown

Most abilities are instant, with cast times being the exception

Weapon swapping

Mastery
Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.
Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points

Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)

Optimizing ability rotations and timing

Light attack weaving

Group “builds” and synergies

I legitimately would not mind at all, one bit, if ZoS added a 6th ability slot that is bound, cannot be changed, and is basically there for show that does a light attack for you after the global cooldown - 1s.

After the first 0.5s of global cooldown you are able to queue abilities/light/heavy attacks, so those who've mastered it still can throw in more light attacks in a fight, but ZoS enabling a function that does it automatically after global cooldown (or after an ability that lasts longer than GCD such as Templar execute) can help those with bad or non-existent light attack weaving. They could also make it so you can override that feature by queuing your own light attacks or w/e.

SkaiFaith · March 2023

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

Again you are missing the point of Oakensoul for many players, I can't run top tier dungeons normally with one arm but can do a reasonable job with oakensoul.

Maybe the distinction is some of us need it, while others don't?

Why can't I give you 10 Awesomes?

For those who asks what's the point of the thread - prevention. There are lots of angry people shouting for a nerf, totally missing the point of this specific item/kind of build.
I want to make clear to the Devs that their customers, the ones they did this for and which prepurchased High Isle for Oakensoul, already got nerfed and don't want to get other nerfs since right now IT'S FINE.

True, I've seen many nerfs from 2017 'till now, but this is a different case, can't be compared to any other in my opinion.

Also: not doing Trials doesn't mean I don't do Dungeons, which I now can solo. I'm not doing overland only, but even overland wasn't soloable to me - be honest, some World Bosses and World Events aren't that much solo friendly, most yes, everyone no, especially when your hands fail you.
And if more people can partecipate in Trials with Oakensoul, to me it only sounds awesome from a game developer perspective (which I am not btw).

Liguar · March 2023

.

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Oh I am fully aware there are those with comorbidities, other disabilities or age factor that require/need it. However, there are those that really do not need it, but use it because of how strong it is for how little you need to do. That is the part I disagree with, and unfortunately that is down to Heavy Attack builds, particularly Empower.

What is needed/expected in the hardest endgame content should not affect the general population of players just trying to enjoy their time in a game.

Whether they specifically need oakensoul or use it because they think LA weaving sucks is irrelevant. If they are not under performing in some trial group* they should be able to use the build even if it's for the laziest reason known to mankind. That is surely their business.

(*The more interesting question is whether the high end should be exclusive to LA weaving or not, but I don't have any personal investment in that so I'm not going to argue it. maybe arcanist will throw some wrenches in the works.)

Red_chimera_oni · March 2023

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Armanie wrote: »

as a HA user myself even I feel like im cheating lol
but don't nerf OS, it's only empower that's way too op rn

Yeah I have to agree empower is a massive issue. Either give it Minor/Major treatment and put Major Empower on Galenwe set, or remove Empower from Oakensoul. It reduces to raw power of the ring, while keeping the other QoL benefits it provides. If people still want Empower, then they can always use a Templar, have someone Run Aegis of Galenwe, or even Rage of the Ursauk.

Us 2 bar players/Vet raiders optimise by having people run sets/classes that can provide these buffs, and it's not too much to ask that oakensoul players can do this too. It'd also teach them a little about gear optimisation, and maybe in the future they may become more comfortable using 2 bars, leaning away from Oakensoul, if they so chose to do so.

Why is this treated as some fundamental truth? Why does raiding need to be tied to utilizing two bars?

As of right now it doesn't. When you get into vAS+2, vCR+2/3, vSS HM, vKA HM, vRG HM and vDSR HM then 2 bars will be the best option. Doing vRG and vDSR HM with oakensoul will be an absolute painful and agonising experience. vCR+3 with a suboptimal group using Oakensoul can result in a wipe due to Relequen's Voltaic Overload mechanic which requires you to swap bars, else big big damage happens. - read below

Note: I think ZoS should make Relequen's Voltaic Overload work differently on those who are flagged as using Oakensoul, to make it fair on those doing Veteran Cloudrest. There's a video on this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYBpQ2hbKe0

If it's a bug, then it should be a baseline feature, even if you have a 2nd weapon equipped backbar when using oaken.

You see any oakensoul in there?

https://youtu.be/V0WRtQOPIKw

All players who ask nerf oakensoul is only because they can't have a perfect rotation. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Yazrz · March 2023

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

I think this is the crux. Why would utilizing a 2 bar build be "trying to learn this game". ESO is clearly stated as being able to be played in many different ways. So why should 2 bar builds be mandatory?

Some people like it, and others would prefer a different way of playing. One way is not more correct than another.

Whilst not mandatory - it can be a massive hindrance. In normal content like overland, or normal dungeons then you can get away with it for the most part, but more more recent DLC dungeons not so much. As for Veteran Dungeons and Trials, especially Veteran Trial HM's and DLC's & their Hard Modes, having access to 2 bars is a massive benefit as you can have self-heals, shields, bit more DOTs on enemies and bosses. To each their own though.

Agreed that 2 bars allow more flexibility, and honestly I would like to see more of that usage, where a second bar could be an utility bar. I.e. one bar being sufficient for DPS. (of course that would not work with oakensoul)

But to get to that point one first need to get into the raids and learn the mechanics. That is imo where the difficulty should lie, in executing the mechanics, not to have a massive hill to learn ones kit.

The DLC Trials and their Hard Modes can be a massive hill as well for those not well versed into combat mechanics.

The Craglorn Trials and even Sunspire is a good place to start. Sunspire is a pretty easy Trial where the only difficulty is really last boss Trash Add phase.

I think ZoS can DEFINITELY do more to help people understand the basics of combat. I am not sure how, but better tutorials with bar swapping, what light attacking is etc.

There are videos on it, and this one is a pretty solid and in-depth Light attack weaving guide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUEio_xwc2U
Goes really into depth with timings as well. There's addons that help with light attacking too:

Weave Delays: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2657-WeaveDelays.html
Light Attack Helper: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2048-LightAttackHelper.html
Combat Metronome: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2373-CombatMetronomeGCDTracker.html

I would like to separate the mechanics of Trials / HMs from the combat basics. The former of course can be harsh, but there is at least a progression from base game dungeons, DLC dungeons, Vet and then HMs. Trials is of course trickier as it requires another level of teamwork, and there I think nothing can replace a good guild. Those things needs to be experienced.

Regarding the combat basics, that is where I think that more diversity would be good. Some love the LA weaving, and some don't. So why can there not be builds that forgo the weaving and instead have other types of rotations?

Unfortunately that would be down to ZoS' core combat values, here's a quote from the U35 Deep Dive:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Active Combat
We believe combat is more engaging when you are on the move and continuously taking action. Battles should be exhilarating, with threats and opportunities coming fast and you feeling empowered to respond in kind. In any given moment you should have options for reacting to your opponents and shouldn't be held back by long waits between actions. This requires controls to be responsive and consistent so you feel connected to your character and in control of the outcomes of your battles.
Block, Roll Dodge, and Bash/Interrupt are not constrained by the global cooldown

No ability cooldowns and a short global cooldown

Most abilities are instant, with cast times being the exception

Weapon swapping

Mastery
Whether you've played for 10 minutes or 1000 hours, there should always be something to learn or improve upon. That loop of learning should be consistently fun and rewarding. Our combat is designed to challenge you along two primary paths: character builds and skillful execution. Outside of combat, your character build should test your ability to refine a large number of choices into a proficient engine for battle. Tests of skillful execution occur during battle, challenging you to realize the potential of your build and outperform opponents in fast-paced, active combat.
Builds consist of the combination of abilities, items and Champion Points

Real-time resource management (Health, Magicka, Stamina, Ultimate)

Optimizing ability rotations and timing

Light attack weaving

Group “builds” and synergies

I legitimately would not mind at all, one bit, if ZoS added a 6th ability slot that is bound, cannot be changed, and is basically there for show that does a light attack for you after the global cooldown - 1s.

After the first 0.5s of global cooldown you are able to queue abilities/light/heavy attacks, so those who've mastered it still can throw in more light attacks in a fight, but ZoS enabling a function that does it automatically after global cooldown (or after an ability that lasts longer than GCD such as Templar execute) can help those with bad or non-existent light attack weaving. They could also make it so you can override that feature by queuing your own light attacks or w/e.

Technically that post also says we should all be "Empowered", so hence we should all be using heavy attacks?

I think the post can also be interpreted that LA weaving is one of many parts, it does not state that it is the only factor.

And as you say, there are many ways to implement functionality that reduces the reliance of LA weaving, while still enabling skill being a factor.

Vulkunne · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Oakensoul power has not been gifted to everyone for free.
One has to purchase Greymoor, High Isle, Murkmire...
One has to level up Scrying and Excavation...
One has to clear Volcanic Vents, which we should admit are not easy to solo for low level player, especially when Necrom will come out and last year zones will become desert. I am CP 1.800 and WITH Oakensoul I can clear them solo, but I happened to see higher level players without Oakensoul attempting to solo them and fail badly.
To optimize the build one has to clear several times different Group Dungeons, take Bastian to Max Level (Blackwood purchase), and be able to slot specific CPs which requires to be high level.

Also, I am CP 1.800 because I play from 2017, put in thousands of hours, and I grinded well over 5.000 Dolmens.
If you see someone like Nefas (which is a great guy) clear hard content with Oakensoul... Heck, what were you expecting from a freaking 3.600CP! Do you really want someone who repeated Black Rose Prison 'till going crazy to still fail like anyone else? I mean... If I'll ever reach CP 3.600 I want to be able to clear everything blindfolded, otherwise what's even the point?!

Oakensoul per sé, or Empower, or Lightning staff splash damage, doesn't make a random low level player the most powerful and skillful in all of Tamriel. At least a lot amount of time for leveling is required. If I invest all this time and money in the game AND I am a disabled person, AND devs rightfully claim to have done this targeting people like me, to help us... Sorry but with due respect, I think you'd better [snip] and play the game instead of filling the forum with "Nerf Oakensoul!"

By the way, I don't do Trials but watching Nefas videos these past weeks was hilarious, and if they're simply having fun I don't see what's the problem with that, since the 99 reasons mentioned from others before me prove that Oakensoul is definitely NOT OP, staying steadily behind 2 bar builds.

Hope I haven't broke any rule but I think this needed to be said - respect player investment, don't nerf these parameters, please. It's one of the best things you've added, Zos, and for which we (the targeted players) are really thankful...

None of that is really the point. No one should have OS. It is still over the top and never should have been added to the game.

OS is the answer to a question no one asked. What happens is players get OS and they get stop learning. If you want to be strong and good at this game, drop OS, delete it, walk away from it and learn how things really work.

For example, in every one of my builds, I get everything I need without OS and have another bar that's useful as well. OS is wasteful and leads to power creap because people have buffs that they don't even need or will rarely use. OS is like ZOS apologizing for players not being smart enough to make a build, so they give you a (1)pc set that is so over powered and not grounded its not even funny. No critical thinking, problem solving or real work involved. Not to mention as I've seen before many OS users have no idea what half of those buffs even do or how they relate to gameplay.

To me when people go on about OS it means you don't know how to make a proper build. You don't know what you're doing, you don't want to learn and you want to spend a short, very very brief amount of time and work tracking down (1) Mythic so you can have it do the thinking for you. I don't mean to be smug here however I have such a low opinion of OS its not even funny and anyone who gets too comfortable using it does themselves a great disservice in the long run. Especially if certain things change in the game you will not understand how to adapt.

Just like with DK Wings from back in the day, I shoot down folks all the time thinking OS is the big answer and it lets them down every... single... time. Just like back in the day with those other DK who thought DK Wings was the big answer to everything. They died even faster.

[edited to remove quote]

biminirwb17_ESO · March 2023

Vulkunne wrote: »

To me when people go on about OS it means you don't know how to make a proper build. You don't know what you're doing, you don't want to learn and you want to spend a short, very very brief amount of time and work tracking down (1) Mythic so you can have it do the thinking for you. I don't mean to be smug here however I have such a low opinion of OS its not even funny and anyone who gets too comfortable using it does themselves a great disservice in the long run. Especially if certain things change in the game you will not understand how to adapt.

cp2610, two grand overlords I think I know how to make a proper build. You don't have to use any bit of gear if you chose not to. But give some respect to others please.

SkaiFaith · March 2023

"OS is the answer to a question no one asked."

😂 it's straight up funny how people who admittedly hate Oakensoul seems to have a better understanding than anyone else of what other people really need. This cracks me up 🤣 seriously, bro...

Mik195 · March 2023

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

Again you are missing the point of Oakensoul for many players, I can't run top tier dungeons normally with one arm but can do a reasonable job with oakensoul.

Maybe the distinction is some of us need it, while others don't?

Agreed. I can't consistently swap bars, roll dodge, use ultimates and switch potions during combat. With Oakensoul, I'm probably doing 20k max. Its not a training issue, its pushing buttons (in my head) and waiting until the hand executes them which unfortunately has rng built in. Sometimes things happen when I want them to, too often it doesn't.

Oakensoul lets me complete content that I can't do otherwise and given that I don't pay less for not being able to do mamy things, nerfing Oakensoul punishes me while doing nothing to the people causing the problem.

If there's really a problem with lucky players (after all your hands work) doing too much dps, then limit the ring to something like if ring used while doing more than 100k dps more than 10 times, it breaks and user must find the leads again and create a new one and can't sticker book. That punishes top tier people who you feel are taking the easy way while not hurting those of us that need the help.

Araneae6537 · March 2023

I’m glad for the addition, even though I’d always preferred two bars, options are good. I ended up getting Oakensoul as well. I had been frustrated that the magsorc build I’d invested in and been practicing weaving on was nerfed well out of meta (no more light armor for trial DPS) but at least replacing Perfected Bahsei plus Kinras with Sergeant’s plus Storm Master was relatively easy and, with Oakensoul, easier to play as well.

Regarding the OP, what has leveling Bastian to do with a HA or Oakensoul build?

SkaiFaith · March 2023

@Araneae6537 Glad you found it useful!
To answer you, sure no one would take Bastian to a Trial, but he has the Skill Searing Weapons which grants 15% bonus damage to Light and Heavy Attacks. It's a very welcome buff for players who generally run Dungeons in solo, especially paired with Oakensoul, but you have to level him to unlock it and to have him not die immediately.
If it's someone's use case I highly suggest it; I've recently swapped him in instead of Isobel and I have an easier life with DPS on WBs.

I'll add on a side note to this topic - you are always playing solo if you play on Xbox EU servers at times other than evening or weekends. I've done 30 WBs for the Endeavor today, Bosses that drops Golden Leads, and all day nobody was there, only 3 people in Malabal Tor. So Oakensoul is really appreciated for helping with solo play...

Araneae6537 · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

@Araneae6537 Glad you found it useful!
To answer you, sure no one would take Bastian to a Trial, but he has the Skill Searing Weapons which grants 15% bonus damage to Light and Heavy Attacks. It's a very welcome buff for players who generally run Dungeons in solo, especially paired with Oakensoul, but you have to level him to unlock it and to have him not die immediately.
If it's someone's use case I highly suggest it; I've recently swapped him in instead of Isobel and I have an easier life with DPS on WBs.

I'll add on a side note to this topic - you are always playing solo if you play on Xbox EU servers at times other than evening or weekends. I've done 30 WBs for the Endeavor today, Bosses that drops Golden Leads, and all day nobody was there, only 3 people in Malabal Tor. So Oakensoul is really appreciated for helping with solo play...

Ohhh, and that is a unique buff that stacks with the Oakensoul ring or other sources of Major Brutality? Thank you for pointing that out!

I’ll have to work on his build and then try soloing some normal DLC dungeons with him as I’d reeeally like to be able to take my time the first time and explore and experience the story and it is difficult to find and coordinate with people. I’m thinking it should be doable on my magsorc with Oakensoul, especially if I swap the Twilight Tormentor for the Matriarch.

SerafinaWaterstar · March 2023

@Blackbird_V (& others)

Whilst I understand your view, as you are apparently a long time vet trials person, I don’t agree with it.

The one bar Oakensoul/HA builds are great fun, and are enabling many to attempt & enjoy vet trials & harder content - why is this wrong? Why should everyone have to play the way you seem to suggest as the ‘right’ way?

If more people are enjoying content they could not access before, please explain to me why that is a bad thing?!

(Just to add that many of the very experienced trial runners in one of my guilds are having a ball with their Oakensoul builds - me included!)

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Then they should not nerf any set in the game, or ability. We've invested a LOT of time into getting sets, only for the to be gutted months later. We also spend a lot of time practicing 2 bar rotations, light attack weaving etc. for that to also be nerfed. We get nerfs, so in fairness so should oakensoul. What it provides is far too much.

IMO either outright remove empower from Oakensoul, or give Empower the Minor/Major Treatment - 10% increased heavy attack damage with Minor Empower, and 20% increased heavy attack damage with Major Empower.

1 Mythic, 2 active abilities and heavy attacking really should not do 100k DPS imo.

Except I can take Oakensoul off, swap my second set to either Order's Wrath, or Noble Duelist, all in light, with one piece of Slimecraw - stack crit to insane levels and get the same damage and survivability, with 1 or 2 buttons .... the issue is the synergy with 4 pulses from lightning, cleave, and any set that enhances heavy attacks ... Oakensoul, at that point is just frosting, not the actual issue -- that is the huge boost you get from having 4 pulses on that heavy attack .... I can even add empower from mages guild, the crit chance from fighters guild, passives from both with the others, and have a ONE button build that does similar the damage
In the end, for Sorc, it's the Daedric Prey and pets, since you can actually have two of them out there, or the other DOTs that support the heavy attack....

By the way, Harpooners Wading Kit with Sergeant's Mail, And the other 6 pieces being light armor, with Order's Wrath, mundus thief, and Divines will net you just as much, for exactly the same.

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe · March 2023

The other issue is that everyone is treating 2 bar as, somehow mandatory to use .. some people don't
It's a playstyle, but if you don't want or need it, you DON'T have to do it......

Telling everyone to just use your second bar, and memorize mashing patterns just like me, isn't being inclusive, or fair...
And as I noted above, I CAN make one bars without Oakensoul that turn out pretty much the same..... the issue is with OTHER parts of the total package.

If it was Oakensoul, then it would make ANY one bar overpowered.... I don't see huge numbers of one bar duel wield Oakensoul players, nor 2-Handed weapons being complained about.

It is strictly the lightning staff and Sergeant's mail combo

Auldwulfe

Dragonlord573 · March 2023

Maybe instead of nerfing more stuff we just leave well enough alone because every time ZOS nerfs something it's done horribly and does nothing but anger people. The combat is in a good place right now.

SkaiFaith · March 2023

Reading many positive people's comments is lovely. Thanks to everyone 🙂.

I want to point out that Devs did a genius move tiding Empower to Heavy Attacks Buff only and to Oakensoul - this way it is obvious that this play style is intended for disabled people, those who can wholeheartedly enjoy it, and this way those who are "naturally skilled" find themselves bored by the slow play style and come back to "the only right, legitimate way to play" (I'm quoting your sentiment, it's genuinely not a bait. I specify since my original post got edited) of 2 bars LA builds. So chapeau to the Dev who had this great idea - the stars did in fact align

To @Araneae6537 yes, it stacks. You're welcome~

JohnAlterat · March 2023

First - OS is great item. Why? I'll try to describe personal point of view.
ESO got a horrible emptiness in describing the game mechanics, the game logic and most of all - how game is playable on high-end content.

Let's imagine the general player who started to be interested or played this game. Mostly it's a player who anyhow but hear about the Skyrim, Morrowind or Oblivion (last one not deserve for so many dislikes as for me). So when such player entering the game he meeting not the same combat mechanics (sticky combat marker, not non-target e.t.c). Technically game saying "it's easy, be who you want, play as you want". And it's a true in a part. But mostly - lie.
Next. The game saying to him (from all corners) that it have "million" skills and you can combinate it as you wish. Technically - you can use any combination. But of course game doesn't teach you how to understand what combination is more optimal, more useful, more "better" e.t.c. It just giving you a preset "just play, don't ask".
Until lvlcap most of the content isn't hard at all and don't you motivate to studying the combat deeply. Just press 1-5 and swap the bar - all dead, repeat.
On 50 lvl, game starting to smash you like a truck. Wanna complete relative group content? No problem but can you channel animation? Do you made correct build? You don't know how to weaving attack? Oh, how did you listen me all the time? What, I didn't say it before? Oh, okay. But anyway you must to know all of this to be just not useless. Good luck!

ESO is cool game, had a ton of content, have a rly awesome ideas with skill trees, possible combination. But its all only on the base lvl, until you playing just like a general rpg, not mmorpg.

So what am I talking about? Not OS is a problem, the overbrain with crutches (for so many balance and mechanic changes) made end-game to difficult to engage in it and to frustratable.
OS just gave you an opportunity to evade some part of this "issues" but not make you best and of course not the same as those who know how this game work and can easily smash buttons with lighting speed.

P.S. Adding OS it not the best solution because it not teach you how to be better, not saying what that ton of buffs gave to player. It made again same thing "don't ask, just play".
It would be rly great if Devs starting to think how to teach new players the real basics of the combat mechanics and add more variative items that made "not meta" valuable for the group content.

Vulkunne · March 2023

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

To me when people go on about OS it means you don't know how to make a proper build. You don't know what you're doing, you don't want to learn and you want to spend a short, very very brief amount of time and work tracking down (1) Mythic so you can have it do the thinking for you. I don't mean to be smug here however I have such a low opinion of OS its not even funny and anyone who gets too comfortable using it does themselves a great disservice in the long run. Especially if certain things change in the game you will not understand how to adapt.

cp2610, two grand overlords I think I know how to make a proper build. You don't have to use any bit of gear if you chose not to. But give some respect to others please.

Give you say? What is this give. Yeah I respect anyone's right to disagree with me, feel free. Yeah most def. You do what you will haha

The message is not for everyone. Some will listen and it will make them stronger. Some will ignore me. Shrugs. My work is done.

Vulkunne · March 2023

JohnAlterat wrote: »

First - OS is great item. Why? I'll try to describe personal point of view.
ESO got a horrible emptiness in describing the game mechanics, the game logic and most of all - how game is playable on high-end content.

Let's imagine the general player who started to be interested or played this game. Mostly it's a player who anyhow but hear about the Skyrim, Morrowind or Oblivion (last one not deserve for so many dislikes as for me). So when such player entering the game he meeting not the same combat mechanics (sticky combat marker, not non-target e.t.c). Technically game saying "it's easy, be who you want, play as you want". And it's a true in a part. But mostly - lie.
Next. The game saying to him (from all corners) that it have "million" skills and you can combinate it as you wish. Technically - you can use any combination. But of course game doesn't teach you how to understand what combination is more optimal, more useful, more "better" e.t.c. It just giving you a preset "just play, don't ask".
Until lvlcap most of the content isn't hard at all and don't you motivate to studying the combat deeply. Just press 1-5 and swap the bar - all dead, repeat.
On 50 lvl, game starting to smash you like a truck. Wanna complete relative group content? No problem but can you channel animation? Do you made correct build? You don't know how to weaving attack? Oh, how did you listen me all the time? What, I didn't say it before? Oh, okay. But anyway you must to know all of this to be just not useless. Good luck!

ESO is cool game, had a ton of content, have a rly awesome ideas with skill trees, possible combination. But its all only on the base lvl, until you playing just like a general rpg, not mmorpg.

So what am I talking about? Not OS is a problem, the overbrain with crutches (for so many balance and mechanic changes) made end-game to difficult to engage in it and to frustratable.
OS just gave you an opportunity to evade some part of this "issues" but not make you best and of course not the same as those who know how this game work and can easily smash buttons with lighting speed.

P.S. Adding OS it not the best solution because it not teach you how to be better, not saying what that ton of buffs gave to player. It made again same thing "don't ask, just play".
It would be rly great if Devs starting to think how to teach new players the real basics of the combat mechanics and add more variative items that made "not meta" valuable for the group content.

I do like this however. And they're not wrong either. Hmmm. We all have our OS I suppose. Just understand that at some point you're not going to be able to go any further until you let that go and really learn to just take what you need rather than having it served. But again I suppose what John is saying here is that even something like OS has its time and place. So be it then.

TaSheen · March 2023

I have no interest at all in "going further". Oakensoul enables me to deal with combat that's not intuitive, or interesting, or viable for me.

Some of us - like me - just want to have fun in this game. Without elitists attemptiing to put us down for not "going further".

Vulkunne · March 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

I have no interest at all in "going further". Oakensoul enables me to deal with combat that's not intuitive, or interesting, or viable for me.

Some of us - like me - just want to have fun in this game. Without elitists attemptiing to put us down for not "going further".

Which brings us full circle to yet another problem OS brings, something I wrote about originally, is how OS degrades existing content and makes the game not as worthwhile because all you need is one item. Think about all those sets and all those things you don't need to learn or care about now because all you have to do is go get one thing.

Anyone remember Solid Snake from NES? Legend of Zelda would never have played it this way either. If you want something, time to man up and quest for it and then go find the other things at the far corners of the world.

Ah those was the good ol days.

TaSheen · March 2023

Oh please. Games are for fun, not for being jobs. I'll thank you to leave my fun alone.

Vulkunne · March 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

I have no interest at all in "going further". Oakensoul enables me to deal with combat that's not intuitive, or interesting, or viable for me.

Some of us - like me - just want to have fun in this game. Without elitists attemptiing to put us down for not "going further".

Hmmm. You just wnt to have fun ok. But lemme ask you a question. If I had a ring that gave me a ton of buffs and unlocks things that are supposed to be behind other sets and I own you in combat then you would say its not fair that I have an advantage that I neither earned nor deserve.

And that's where we're coming from. Its not fair for someone to have all this power in one item and succeed in combat gameplay that as you said, to 'you' its not intuitive, or interesting or viable for you so why do it in the first place? Do you see what I'm saying. You're not happy about combat so you lean on your ring to prove a point to the rest of us who do find PvP intuitive, interesting and viable.

There is a difference. Its not just all about you and 'your fun' when it stacks the odds against other players. Moreover, just because you have Oak doesn't make up for not understanding how PvP works, esp if you hate it to begin with you're going to really hate losing to ppl who know more than you without the ring.

TaSheen · March 2023

Vulkunne wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Oh please. Games are for fun, not for being jobs. I'll thank you to leave my fun alone.

A crossword puzzle also can be fun. Same with a murder mystery, or solving a challenging problem.

And your point is? Your fun is more important than mine or anyone else who plays this game?

If what you like is difficult combat in HMs or whatever, fine. Go for it. But don't expect everyone who plays this game to want to beat themselves to death to go there.

I got over that decades back in WoW. I'm happy for you to do what you love - but apparently you aren't happy unless everyone playing this game is willing to also do what you love.

Your whole attitude is that those of us who don't have any interest in endgame content are useless and should just DIAF. *shrug* Well, sorry. I don't think your attitude is a majority - and even if it was, I'd thumb my nose at all y'all while I continue playing the game my way.

Hope you have the fun you love your way. And I also hope you will allow those of us who aren't involved in that to love the game our way. I really doubt that's going to happen though, considering your posts.....

[Edit - sorry, typos]

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Vulkunne wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I have no interest at all in "going further". Oakensoul enables me to deal with combat that's not intuitive, or interesting, or viable for me.

Some of us - like me - just want to have fun in this game. Without elitists attemptiing to put us down for not "going further".

Hmmm. You just wnt to have fun ok. But lemme ask you a question. If I had a ring that gave me a ton of buffs and unlocks things that are supposed to be behind other sets and I own you in combat then you would say its not fair that I have an advantage that I neither earned nor deserve.

And that's where we're coming from. Its not fair for someone to have all this power in one item and succeed in combat gameplay that as you said, to 'you' its not intuitive, or interesting or viable for you so why do it in the first place? Do you see what I'm saying. You're not happy about combat so you lean on your ring to prove a point to the rest of us who do find PvP intuitive, interesting and viable.

There is a difference. Its not just all about you and 'your fun' when it stacks the odds against other players. Moreover, just because you have Oak doesn't make up for not understanding how PvP works, esp if you hate it to begin with you're going to really hate losing to ppl who know more than you without the ring.

If you had that ring, I'd care the same as if you didn't....
Honestly, Oakensoul dies in PVP .... I have seen it, and done it .. the number of dead single bar players my NightBlade has left behind is pretty long......

I've tried using it in PVP --- I have died to a good player with a 2 bar setup, EVERY SINGLE TIME....

It works best in PVE .... seriously... don't like it, then leave and find another group ..... easy enough.

Of course, we could also fix the one, seriously, broken part of the game that is, pretty much, an exploit .....
Animation cancelling, and breaking the Global Cool Down with light attacks... put them on the same GCD at one second as everything else..... it shouldn't be that people that wiggle faster can somehow do more damage... or that master some rythm.

Auldwulfe

blktauna · March 2023

me_ming wrote: »

Your investment should be learning the game, and not be attached to your gear/race/class/etc

And what canon is required here?
Oh wait here it is "Play as you want"